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Pontiac GTO
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The engine is made in Canada. The M6 tranny is made in Mexico. These are similar to, if not the exact same, as those used in previous/other GM vehicles. No concerns there.
Most parts are generally available faily quickly. I _have_ heard horror stories of folks who are in an accident and need major frame components, waiting 2+ months for them to get here (slow boat?). Things like glass and body panels shouldn't be a huge problem.
If you are talking modifications, the LS2 is used in the 'Vette and SSR (and now the CTS-V for '06). Tons of mods available for these cars - not as many as, say, a Mustang, but enough to get you in excess of 600 rwhp or to make the car an autocross demon.
The two biggest complaints I see are strut rub (must pay attention to alignment, or get the 18" wheel/tire combo which uses 235 size tires that don't have the problem) and water leaks. There was a pedal sensor problem on the '05's but there's a revised pedal assembly, widely available, which fixes the issue.
Holden's main car line (full-size and "Ute" vehicles) use the same chassis and similar interior/components as the GTO. They manufacture over 150k total V-chassis cars per year since 1997 (they get a new chassis this fall for some vehicles). I don't expect part availability to be a long-term problem...
--Robert
Engine Displacement: 6.4L (389 CID)
Bore: 105.03mm (4.135”)
Stroke: 92.00mm (3.622”)
REV Limit: 7000 RPM
Peak Hp: 575 Hp @ 6800 RPM
Peak Tq: 500 Lb-Ft @ 5200 RPM
Compression Ratio: 10.5:1
Cam Shaft: Custom GM Hyd Roller
Valve lift: 15.75mm (.620”)
Cam Duration Int: 232 deg @ .050” Tappet
Cam Duration Exh: 272 deg @ .050” Tappet
90mm Throttle Body
Dual Mass Air Flow sensors, Cold air induction system
The only thing I'm not sure about is the exhaust. I can't copy and paste the pictures, so here's a link for your viewing pleasure.
http://www.gtoalley.com/2004gtob.html
dealer is still working on the car. they have not noticed any blown bushing-strut-things. if problems persist i will certainly consider ponying up some $ for those noltec or pedder ones, and pay dealer to install.
dealer agreed to contact TAC about revised alignment specs. thanks for the info about Jorge L-G at GM - i will pass that along to them if this strut-rub deal becomes an issue. at this point i don't even think dealer mechanic is looking for that as a problem. i suppose that when i get the car back maybe i can look myself for strut-rub. as usual, thanks for the awesome info sir!
i bet the struts on my car did not get rubbed much by the tires. on all cars i am sort of paranoid about maxxing out the steering - i don't like parking the car that way and when i'm turning i always back off a little bit if i encounter end-of-travel for the steering.
More news after I've tried to have this solved.
I live in orange county, CA.
-Matt
Remember the noise factor...inside the car and outside....cops.....also the GTO LUVS PREMIUM GAS....and this Summer gas will be $3.50-$3.80 and so 10 mpg in the city..............do the math...wow you are going over the top.
Personally, invest in good STREET RACING/DRIVING TIRES.
Hey Guys , what are a good coice in such TIRES.
BTW mparis1, you may not have any trouble with the GT stangs, but a stock GTO with the LS2 is not going to hang with an LS2 vette and the Cobras will eat your lunch all day long (assuming the driver has both arms and legs).
To mparis: You gave good advice. I will not be foolish about this thing. There are other scenarios in which the additional HP will prove satisfying, though. About a week ago I was on 84E in Connecticut, in the middle lane, doing about 10 MPH below the limit (65); this Eurotrash M3 pulls along side of me in the passing lane and gives me the "I'm European" look; I put her into about 4000 revs and stomped it to about 80 (traffic was an issue); the M3 caught up with me, aggressively, on my tail; I could do no more because of traffic, but I don't think the guy comprehended what the sound and acceleration demonstration revealed. I am certain that the SLP will offer, in that scenario, a convincing display of American in-your-face macho which will, at least, please me (which is what matters, right?). Your mention of spinning out on take-off is odd because just last week there was a criminal case in our town where the defendant lost control of his car while dragging another car, hit a third car, killing the driver of that car. Sobering thought.
To whatsachevy: I agree with your HP theory. There's no such concept of too much HP -- just does'nt exist. But we have to stay alert to avoid hurting ourselves and others. I really believe that my obsession with acceleration power originates from my Navy fighter pilot days when I would plug in afterburner and... well, you know. The Goat gives me that feeling: sheer, brute, over-the-top thrust and power. I look at more powerful cars like a Carrera or a Viper and I don't get the same feeling. Odd.
Can a backyard mechanic change out the bushings?
Other than this concern, I love the car ! Drive it around town 1-3-5, and it has more then enough in any gear to pin you to the seat. All while getting 21-22 MPG.
I take my car to an alignment place and have them check the alignment when rotating the tires. They also check for strut rub when the tires are off. My car comes out of storage in about a week, and then I'll go get an oil change/tire rotation, so we'll see if I'm having a problem at 9300 miles...
--Robert
HARD TO BELIEVE 2005 SALES LOWER THAN 2004 ?
Is this true Robert, GTO GURU???
Like I have been saying, GM is on the brink and will not put out 2 Muscle Cars...Camaro/Gto. And if they are in business by 2010 ,a 2010 will be too late for us 60s muscle guys...so who will buy them. Young guys want Porsches/vettes/ Infiniti Coupes...big seller in nyc...always racing me......
If I get a good launch my 2005 can keep close to a LS2 Vette...have not seen a LS7 one yet. That is a different story... I beleive even GTO BOBCATS WILL NOT BEAT THEM. From what I have seen/ read ...they are THE FASTEST GUN IN TOWN...."SAVE YOUR PENNIES SAVE YOUR DIMES AND BUY A LS7."
Tires for the street--- have you heard about "Nittos" brand?
anybody?
Should I go to the 235/45R18s to avoid bushing problems?
Luv my car....a day does'nt pass when someone does 'nt say something to me/ race me/ look me over/ or I am getting gas.
Yes, there will be another GTO. I'd bet my 401K on it. It's in the design stages now and it supposedly looks fantastic. It appears that the rumors of the Quad Coupe are just that, rumors. The other big news is that Pontiac is probably not getting a Grand Prix/Bonneville replacement (i.e. no big RWD 4-door sedan - pity, I wanted a next-gen Holden Commodore SS as my next car). With GM's new flexible manufacturing capability, and basing the next-gen car on the NA version of Zeta (to be used by the Camaro, the next-gen Impala/Bel Air, next-gen Chevelle, and a next-gen Buick sedan), the costs are amortized. Not sure yet if there will be one plant (Oshawa, Ontario, Canada) or two (Oshawa and Wilmington, Delaware, where the Solstice/Sky/Opel variant of the Sky are built). The plan is to sell 15-20k vehicles, starting at around $30k, sometime in late 2008 as a 2009 model.
I am not in denial that GM has money issues... but they also have tons of good product in the queue. They've made a number of moves (warding off potential Delphi/UAW strike, selling off part of GMAC, their ownership stake in Suzuki and Subaru) to bring in $$$. This will get them through 2006 into their contract year with the UAW in 2007, at which point in time they will be pushing to close factories, end the jobs bank, increase the union contribution to health-care costs, et. al. At least they have new product in the pipeline (unlike Ford, who IMHO is hurting even worse, but not bleeding as much cash as GM). GM has no margin for error... they need to execute, and every product needs to be a hit, for the next 3-4 years, to get out from under this.
Regarding tires... if you have the '05/'06 18" wheels I'd stay with 235/40R18 size tires. I would consider the "new tread" BF Goodrich KDW 2 tires (buddy had them on his IS300, they stuck like glue), Pirelli P-Zero Neros (used on the Mustang GT's), and Toyo's. Avoid the Goodyear F-1's like the plague - balance issues/vibration. The Nitto drag radials are pretty decent for dry traction, but if you drive the car in the rain (or, obviously, in winter), forget about the drag radials. They'll last maybe 10k miles, too, FWIW.
Hope this helps,
--Robert
As to there being both a GTO and a Camaro, I agree that its unlikely that both will make it to market. The problem, as I see it, is one of positioning and price. If GM can produce a LS2 type Camaro (320+ HP, six-speed, etc) and list it, and note I say list it, not what the price is out the door, for slightly over $20,000 then there is room for a GTO in the $25K to $28K bracket. If the Camaro, in V8 trim, lists closer to the Mustang GT at about $26K, you end up with the issue of fine granualarity pricing, or what do you get for the extra $2K in a GTO.
If the Camaro does fall into the $26K to $32K bracket, covering the higher performance, higher content models (including the propose LS7), then the GTO either competes for the same customers, if its priced into the same range, or it needs to move upscale into the $30K to $38K, or greater, price bracket. In this price range the compitition is quite different and pure "muscle car" image does not do well in this range. Nor does a brand that is not considered a competitor in this range where BMW, Lexus, etc start to play.
This, I think, is part of the problem with the GTO today. Its a nice car. Its a nice driver. But its a tweener. It doesn't list low enough to attact the attention of the younger crowd, despite what it actually goes for out the door, and it doesn't have the brand image, and more important the content (lux type items) to play with the BMW and Lexus models and attract that group.
So, if they do bring back both its likely they will compete for the same customers and this is likely to be a zero sum game for GM.
Base Camaro - 22k w/3.9L V6 - midrange - LS3 or the mystery V8? $26-$30k. There may be an LS7 version later on down the road, but expect BIG $$$ ($40k+).
The GTO will start around $30k and have the LS3. It will be a somewhat larger vehicle than the Camaro (NOT a clone/reskin the like 4thgen F-bodies were) and will go up to $35k with features like sunroof, HIDs, NAV, et. al.
speaking of headlights/HIDs. i find i like the projector-beams of the goat WAY better than the xenons on our volvo xc90. way better lighting pattern - seems like more light - no abrupt cutoff of the light pattern. i can just see better/further with the goat lights than with the xc90s xenons, i think.
btw, thanks for those previous alignment specs Robert - i note that those specs do specify a slight negative camber from the factory! is that unique to gto - negative camber in factory alignment specs. it is consistent with the handling of the car, sometimes it felt like it has "snap oversteer" reminiscent of the old porsche 911s. i sorta liked it
My father drove the goat for the first time today. He owned an 85' TA with all the goodies, and after his drive, proclaimed that the goat would have eaten the TA for lunch and dinner. I drove back from the halfway point, and promptly showed him what 0-60 in 5 secs is like. I then whipped it around a right hand turn at an intersection, and proceeded to pin the food bags to the left hand side of the car........yeeeeeeehaaawwwwwwwwww.
i have been considering purchasing a new 2006 and now have some thoughts on that for any one also considering such a purchase.
first of all, the cost of non oem strut bushings and tires must be factored in. the chance thata bushing will fail after the warranty period is great as is the tire damage. second, the information regarding the bushing failure, liklihood of alignment issues, etc. must be brought to the sales manager's attention at the time the deal is negotiated. i for one will speak witht the pontiac service manager about all this before i even start the negotiations.
second, gm/holden must issue a recall with a new bushing design to fix the problem. i agree that nhtsa must be notified asap by every gto owner.
if every gto owner notifies nhtsa, it will commence an investigation and given the seriousness of the damage to the tire, and a liklihood of blow out, would mandate a recall.
thanks to all. rr70
Remember, if you get the optional 18" summer-only tires and wheels, they are only a 235-sized tire and generally won't rub. All Monaros come with 18"ers from stock - GMNA downsized the tires to 17's (but increased the size to 245) due to concern about crappy roads and ride quality/bent rims...
I agree that anyone who has experienced this issue should notify NHTSA at http://www.nhtsa.gov
I know a large number of GTO owners are on-line, but not all, and not a large percentage of on-line folks know about this potentially-serious issue. Hopefully GM becomes proactive rather than reactive and begins to notify 2004-2006 GTO owners... in the meantime, it's best to be proactive yourself...
--Robert
"customer reports excessive tire wear, please check and advise". response: performed front end alignment. excessive negative camber on vehicle. labor: $78 .
(alignment reports indicates that the alignment was in fact very close to being WITHIN FACTORY SPEC to begin with (below)).
"align: check steering, suspension, shocks, tie-rods, ball joints, tires, set tire pressure, toe-in, camber, caster, road test". labor: $79.95 (again). parts: $56.
installed 92138205 NUT 06164-PC (4 @ $4.85). installed 92138049 washer (06178-PC) 4@$1.64. installed 11090821 bolt 06009-PC 4@$7.60 . "additional parts needed for strut hardware to complete alignment properly". service rep indicated verbally that they had to drill out the old parts. i find this bizarre. the car is 10 months old - why were the parts "frozen"?
bottom line is that the alignment cost me over $200 . maybe they charged me for the labor twice but i do believe that it took them considerable hours to do this work. i will enquire as to whether they charged for the labor twice. i still like this dealership and believe they are honest. i will probably reporting all of this to that Jorge dude at GM (thanks for his info, Robert).
i do not plan to notify NHTSA as i do not necessarily/yet agree there is a safety problem here.
here is the portion of before/after vehicle alignment info which looks signficant to me. first # is "before" middle numbers are spec-range. final # is "after".
primary angles:
caster left 8.9 (6.5-9.0) 8.9
caster right 9.3 (6.5-9.0) 9.3 [still OUT OF SPEC!]
camber left -0.6 (-0.7 0.3) 0.1
front camber right -0.4 (-0.7 0.3) 0.0
toe left 0.10 (0.00 - 0.15) 0.10
toe right -0.10 (0.00 0.15) 0.10
toe total 0.00 (0.00 0.35) 0.25
camber left -1.4 (-1.7 -0.4) -1.5
camber right -1.5 (-1.7 -0.4) -1.5
toe left 0.10 (0.05 0.35) 0.10
rear toe right (0.05 (0.05 - 0.35) 0.00 [OUT OF SPEC!]
toe total 0.15 (0.05 0.75) 0.10
thrust angle 0.0 (0.2) 0.1
(the "front/rear" doesn't really match up with the other columns on their printout - i have reflected that discrepancy above).
all the secondary angles are unchanged according to their report and are within the spec #s on their printout so i am not mentioning those.
i put in a call to the service rep and asked him to comment on why after a week and $250, two of the alignment numbers are still out of spec. i do pity the guy for having to put up with my incredible nitpicking. but hey, that's the way it goes. now to go look up that Jorge guys info.
while the new alignment is still technically out of spec according to their own #s i am fairly confident it will be better than before. they sure worked on it long enough. i don't think the bushings are blown - the car does not wander during heavy braking at all. i gotta admit i'm wondering if i should have gone the extra $$$ for a C6 vette. bro-in-law just got a red C6 convertible with all options. i haven't seen him in a year but i told him that the fact he bought a vette tells me that he is way more bald than when i last saw him. inbetween curses he told me i was right about that.
That's great! I have considered a Vette before; my primary reservation is the "look at me" styling. I don't like to feel like I'm on display. That said, if I wanted one that bad, I would probably go ahead and get one anyway. I like the subdued styling of the GTO (not to mention the much easier ingress/egress).
I have to agree with you; one obvious symptom of blown bushings is the wandering under hard braking. In fact, that's how I ruined mine; bedding new pads after converting to a set of 05 front brake calipers/rotors. After returning from said bedding, noticed two pools of fluid under the front of the car. Upon closer examination, witnessed drips coming from front strut bushings. Amazing.
i deal with repairing similar sorts of "possible design flaws" in my job (software) and have a lot of sympathy for the mechanic who has this case. it would truly suck if a "re-take" like this ends up coming out of the mechanics pocket. he is working hard and deserves to get paid. i know that for most repairs the mechanic's pay is determined out of a "reference book" which lists # of hours for a particular job. if the mechanic finishes the job quicker, that's extra $ for him. if he is slow to finish, that's his own time & money being lost. so if "alignment" is listed in this book as just 1 hour labor, this mechanic is really getting screwed.
i have already notified the GM guy Jorge via voice mail of the situation and will leave him a followup too.
if the dealer fails again after this 2nd try i'm not sure what i will do. maybe find an aftermarket speed-shop with whatever it takes to get the job done.
it didn't work though - i've mentioned here before that the GTO gets an incredible amount of attention on the road - EVERY TIME i drive it. kids yell at me constantly (usually good things). other (young) drivers start to drive maniacally after they see my goat - either to try to race me or just to position in traffic so they can see the car better or hang out their window while yelling and gesticulating at me to "goose" the goat - they want to hear the exhaust sound. the exhaust sure does sound awesome - and the other drivers antics are funny the first few times but gets old really fast.
from what i've seen the GTO gets substantially M O R E attention than does C6, a camaro, or a hopped up mustang.
if i keep this car much longer my next step might be to buy an 04/smooth hood and get it painted/installed, and to remove the rear spoiler too. one concern i have about the spoiler is that i plan to road-course the car after warranty is over - if i keep it that long. maybe the road course speeds are slow enough that spoiler would not add any value...
My 2 questions; i keep hearing about slow seat motors as i will have 2 car seats in the back.
is access to back seat too much of a pain and i should look for 4 door or stick with my 4runner.
and i will drive it all winter here in ohio, is this possible as well?
test drove the '06 with 6 speed, and afraid to go back to play with car seats in and out for fear i will buy no matter what.!
thanks!
Those that are currently leasing, what is your lease and alolowed mileage. What was the negotiated residual value? Was it difficult to negotiate?
I am thinking that I shoudl be able to get a decent lease on a left over 2005.
Regarding back seat access, there's lots of room back there, it can be difficult to get back there - this is dependent on how big and limber you are. You will have to make the call here.
There are many folks who drive their GTO year-round - though dedicated winter snow tires would be a strong suggestion no matter what (Dunlop WinterSport are the most common winter tires). On one hand, the GTO, being designed and sold primarily in Australia and also the Middle East, isn't necessarily engineered for cold weather. It's not the engine or tranny, it would be the interior (i.e. no heated seats - time to visit PFYC.com) passenger comfort/climate control that would concern me (i.e. there aren't any under-seat heat ducts for rear passengers - just the blower behind the center console).
Also note that the defrost mode requires you to manually turn on the AC to defog windows - and the airflow isn't as much as it should be. I haven't had a problem driving my car from April through part of November, but I do store it for the winter... but again, not everyone does. I suppose if I had to drive my car in the winter, I would... just glad that I don't have to.
--Robert
i'm going to have scotty in engineering
beam the spoiler and vented hood out of there.
imagine how fast this car would eat
snow tires considering what happens with the factory alignment & tires.
It is not a great winter car because of the rear wheel drive, high power and heating system. I drive it in winter but not in snow. When I have had to it has been fine but you need to take it easy in the snow or wet because there is so much power back there on the rear wheels. Heating is not good. It takes forever to warm up. Defogging is okay with the air con on the front but the side windows are very slow.
In summary. Car seats no problem and slow seats no problem for the kids to get by. Not great in winter. But fun every time you take it out.
The car takes approximately the same time to warm up as my previous cars which included a mercury cougar. Side defroster is not very efficient but I doubt that the quality of the side window defoster would make much if any difference in my decision to buy any car.
and no way would a little side window frost stop me from looking more seriously at this car in the coming weeks.
What residual value did they give you after 4 years? Was there a big difference between the residual value of 15,000 vs 10,000 annual mileage restriction?
Do you regret leasing?
on the blown bushings, i spoke to the shop manager who said that the worst were the 2004s and much fewer in 2005 and 2006.
i was wondering if anyone has found out if they can get the body side molding which goes in the side crease from holden. it is obvious that the crease can house molding.
fyi, my favorite dash cover dealer (here in florida we must cover the dash if the car sits in the sun) has the gto template, and in a week or two, i will get that.
that's it for now.
rr70
including $680 for the 2004 hood. upper end of the range is if i want blending. i told them i'm color-blind anyway. they think maybe blending won't be necessary. even so, that is big $. maybe well worth it for me though. i suppose another body shop could give lower quote, but a big factor for me is the time-cost of dealing with pickup/dropoff too. it's nice if they can do the body work and re-fix the alignment at the same shop.
in alignment news, a factory rep called me and told me a case #, due to that voice message i left for Jorge @ GM regarding strut-rub/etc. (supposedly no strut rub on my goat- i always avoid maxxing the steering.)
I drive by a high school on my way to work. The other day, the PE class was outside doing jumping jacks when I drove by. I watched with a smile as I turned all the heads of the males in the class. I do hate the tailgaters that just have to get a closeup-I normally use this as an excuse to "disappear" down the road.
The dealership took two tries to solve the problem. First time in, they didn't listen well to my complaint and simply did the 'fix' on the front seat they found in their computers .. not the correct solution. The second time, they hooked me up with the 'seat specialist' and he fixed it in under 5 minutes. Robert's salient advice to give the guy a ride worked well ... as soon as he sat down in the car, he knew it was a problem./
ANyways, all fixed and driving even faster than ever. Took the El Cajon pass up out of LA ... love the uphill power.
Looking at the adjustable sway bar kit from Hotchkiss ... anybody installed it? How long did it take to install at the speed shop? What setting is the best? Got a quote for over 300 dollars for the kit ... seems excessive.
Thanks guys ...
The lease works fine for me.
The whole time I was on the phone with Pontiac cust service and finally someone at the Exec offices (arrogant [non-permissible content removed])to get this resolved. From the start I wanted GM to extend my warranty but they refused to do anything but give me 1 years oil changes for the over 153 days my car was out of service due to warranty work. I have contacted the BBB and it seems to be resolved. Pontiac/GM now has to repurchase my car give me back what I paid for the car+actually trade value+tax+dealer fee+interest -mileage -GM card money. I'm lucky that I don't have this car as my everyday car I would have gotten back less ($.32 a mile) :lemon: I had a 2004 GTO Black on Black 6sp. I'm going to miss that car it was a very nice car put the problems were mind blowing... I might pick up a used one in a few years when all the bugs have been worked out or they are made here in the states.