Cadillac CTS/CTS-V

richm4

Does anyone know exactly when the interior will be revamped?

I've started to really like the exterior styling (it sort of grew on me), but I can't see spending $35K to get that cheap looking interior, especially when the same money can get me an ES300.

Also, has anyone seen what the interior changes will look like, such as will it be somewhat similar to the DTS, except on a smaller scale?

I'm hoping it's before next August 1st since GM is ending the GM Card rebate when getting a GMO/GMS discount.

b4z

Of course they are going to replace the engine without any hassles, Its broken.

eaton53

On where you want to spend your money... luxury or performance. You give up the latter in an ES300.

I don't know how much they can upgrade an interior in one year... don't expect the basic design to change that much. The description I've heard were "improved jewelry and lighting".

I wouldn't care if they left the interior alone and just gave me more motor... and the desired wagon version.

b4z

Unfortunately Cadillac has decided to put the same rectangular and blocky interior in the XLR. In the CTS it is passable. In the $75,000 it is ridiculous. Allante all over again.

oldsman01

Drive a CTS and an ES300 back to back and you'll discover where Cadillac put the development money versus Lexus. If Cadillac had taken a lower end car such as an Oldsmobile Intrigue and dressed it up(much like Lexus dressed up a Camry with the ES) then they too would have probably come out with a more luxurious interior. As it stands, the CTS's interior is not bad. I didn't really care for it when looking at it in pictures, but after actually sitting in one and driving one, I've found the interior to be a very nice and comfortable place. A little more zebrano wood to warm things up and a proper temp gauge in place of the clock in the gauge cluster and it would be nearly perfect for 35K car.

b4z, from the pics I've seen, I like the XLR. Being as I typically like most cars more after seeing them in person, I have a feeling I'm going to love the XLR. I think we can safely say, this ain't gonna be another Allante.

b4z

I like the exterior, just not the interior.

robh3

I think you entirely missed the point of my post, and the preceding email thread.

It was suggested that Cadillac should replace the WHOLE car, vs. just the engine. That was the notion that I was responding to. Concern had been expressed about replacing the engine, and if the car would ever be "the same" again.

baron87

What are you talking about?? The XLR interior is totally different from that of the CTS. In the new addition of AutoWeek they say that they think the XLR interior is a better one than that of the SL or SC.

New CTS interior is going to have different door panels, a few extra pieces of trim, and a few things "touched up" a la the 2003 Escalade with its revised BVLGARI instrumentation, clock, and new steering setup. Nothing drastic, just a few changes to the general theme. The center HAL-like stack may be toned down a bit.

b4z

Sorry.

merckx

about the CTS interior. Lincoln's LS struck me the same way-inside,it struck me as a little too Taurus-like. But look at what it(and the CTS) are, Fairly big cars that are both driving revelations. So to build it too a price(and a great one,too)something had to give.
Olds was right on with that Lex ES comment.Being heavily based on the Camry,they had a lot left over to spend on the eye candy.
And while the ES has a lot of good qualites,I doubt few would say it is fun to drive.
Whereas the CTS,like my Catera,gives you a very roomy interior and at the same time drivind dynamics fairly BWM-like.
And I'm happy with "fairly" because I see(it was for me)the BMW 525i as the likely competor,not the 3-series. And of corse it costs a great deal more. But I thought that 325i just too small inside.

wwhite2

I am sure they will not want to replace the car . But you can be GUARANTEED that the car will never be ok . 99 % of the service techs cant handle such a project. There are to many steps to remember and if you think they can, well keep dreaming .

akirby

I think you need to take off the rose-colored glasses and re-read the Autoweek article. Here's the exact quote on the XLR interior:

"The build and finish betrayed the still-under-refinement stage, but it's obvious this car is meant to run against something other than a Lincoln - namely Mercedes-Benz SL500 and Lexus SC 430."

All they said was the materials seemed very good. They never said the interior was as good or better than the competition.

And I won't tell your English teacher, but it's "edition", not "addition".

And it DOES look a lot like the CTS interior. The steering wheel and center stack are almost dead ringers. The material may be different but the design is almost identical. It does not look anywhere near as good as the SL500 (IMO). It's ok in a $35k CTS but not a $75K SL fighter.

typeaman

For the record...The service guy did not say that the cylinder had worn through the sleeve. I assumed it because he said that the block was damaged beyond repair. There is nothing "fishy"... The misunderstanding is my fault!

b4z

I figured it was a miscommunication or a misuse of terminology that's why I didn't post anything about the it.
I am figuring that it was a piston or ring problem which caused the cylinder walls to be damaged.
Could be that a ring was installed improperly and scored the wall beyond repair.
More than likely an assembly problem which would show up quickly, and it did.

baron87

Please excuse my typographical error. I think one must take into account the fact that I wrote that post around midnight, after a few too many glasses of a 1988 Brunello, and seeing Riverdance (ha, what a combination!). Oh, and I'm not quite taking an English class; it's world literature, in case you were wondering...

As for the AutoWeek article: you know what I meant. I was just trying to illustrate that the XLR interior is not something straight off the CTS; it is in fact something that can run with its competition. And, anyway, didn't they say something about liking it better than the SC's interior, or something about the curves or lines?

Have a nice day...

calicadi

Could also be a piston wrist pin if the claim is block damage. Don't know if those are pressed-in only, or retained by C- or E-clips.

As to "never be the same" IMO auto servicing has become very much a component repair affair. The mechcanics probably have more experience replacing entire engines than tearing one down and painstakingly replacing close-tolerance internal parts and rebuilding.

And as far as likening the current CTS mill to the Catera, this is from Automobile Magazine of September 2001:
"The 3.2-liter V-6 in the CTS is, essentially, a new engine, although it shares its DOHC, 24-valve, 54-degree included-angle architecture with the outgoing Catera's 3.0 liter unit.The cast iron block is stiffer and stronger, and there is a forged steel crank plus new cams (mainly for refinement) and a new piston crown design. A weakness of the previous engine was vibration. This has been addressed with a redesigned cam drive, a revised bracket for the power steering and air conditioner pumps, and a new more rigid cast aluminum oil pan. ..."

I know it's easy for me to say 'cause it's not my baby in the hospital... but I wouldn't let negative expectations color my perspective. I had fairly major engine work done on my Northstar Seville and everything came out fine.

b4z

If you were baron81 that would be okay.
But you might want to wait until 2008.

eaton53

All you have to do is look under the hood of today's cars and it's pretty obvious that space is so tight and some components are so buried that their replacement requires engine removal. The service guys should be pretty used to it by now.

So, what's the difference if they pull the motor for a repair and put the same one back in, or put a different one in?

I think it will be just fine... but I'd be insisting on a Cadillac for a loaner.

baron87

That was a joke, b4z. I was with my family, for heaven's sake. Haha...

b4z

My parents use to throw keg parties for me when I
12. LOL.

wwhite2

You are going on the assumption that the "guys" are capable of handling such a task. You cant find a flat rater that cares about carefully disconnecting and reconnnecting WeatherPak (weather tight electrical connections) and over torquing fasteners etc These are tolerances that are held in factory production assembly lines,never cared for by a FLAT RATE tech. Time is money and the cant see it from their garage

oldsman01

At least baron has some good taste in cars and drinks at his young age:)

akirby

You had me worried there for a second...

The AW article said the XLR should be faster than the SL and SC (if the caddy estimates hold up). They liked the quality of the interior materials. They didn't really comment on the design itself - interior or exterior. It was more of an article on the technology in the chassis and powertrain.

It will be interesting when they do a side by side comparison.

Pardon the interruption. Back to the CTS....

johnnylinc

Your post (IMO) seems to be a blanket condemnation, and more than a little unfair. What happened to typeaman's CTS is extremely unfortunate, but engine failures in brand-new cars do occur on occasion. A bad part or an assembly problem can sometimes just slip into the mix. (There's a report on the NHTSA website of a new BMW Z8 bursting into flames after only a few hundred miles; it happens.) Since it's a CTS, I'll bet that it'll get quite a bit of attention from both the servicing dealer and from Cadillac corporate in executing the engine swap.

I'd be extremely upset if it was my car, but the thing to do now is to let Cadillac take care of it and pay very close attention to the results. If the car doesn't work properly and the problems can't be resolved, it'll become a lemon-law candidate. It doesn't seem justified to condemn Cadillac and the dealership before the work even begins, and I don't see any point in giving gloom-and-doom pronouncements to someone whose new engine just expired.

Good luck, typea--hope it's resolved to your satisfaction.

b4z

They do happen. Our '82 Impala with less than 2500 miles had a broken valve spring.

While not a failure, my IROC was using a quart of oil every 600 miles from new and had new valve seals installed, which didn't help. They then pulled the heads, sent them off to a machine shop and put in new valve guides. Oil consumption dropped to a quart every 4500 miles.
203,000 miles on it today and using a quart every 1000 miles.
We have many CTS owners on this thread and only one failure and I think one post about excessive oil consumption(?). Not too bad.
On the intrigue thread we had many posts about oil consumption and 1 engine replacemnet due to block porosity.
I think the CTS has a pretty good record so far.
Compare this to the Honda transmission posts and the Toyota sludge factor.
Granted they are a very small percentage of total sales.

typeaman

To answer the question of eaton53...My loaner is a 2003 Cadillac DeVille!

baron87

We've had all sorts of weird loaners from the Cadillac dealer when the DTS is in for scheduled service. We've had on occasion, a few DeVilles, an Infiniti QX4, a Toyota Camry Solara convert., an Impala, a Bonneville SSEi (that one has to take the cake for bizarre)...and on and on...always a variety of random cars collected in my garage. The worst of all, though, was after our big accident when the DTS was being fixed by Cadillac for a few weeks having a Buick Century!! Ugh...that was one of my least favorite cars...

akirby

With the engine tolerances as tight as they are today the mfrs don't feel comfortable having a mechanic open up the engine and tinker with it. They prefer to replace the entire engine to maintain quality and prevent future problems from the repair itself. Autoweek's XLR article talks about the assembly of the 5 speed auto tranny used in the CTS/BMW and how it's assembled in a room more suited to a hospital operating room than a car shop. We've had a few of these on the LS as well - most were a simple ticking noise and the car was running just fine. But Lincoln replaced the engine. Provided the mechanic is good you probably won't be able to tell the difference.

navigator3740

I would much rather have the whole engine replaced. Sure, it's very complicated, but replacing a head gasket is as well, after you take the whole top of the engine off to get to it, fuel injection, air & throttle linkage, wires, thingys, wigglejugs & dodadds. I know if I did it, I'd have a box of leftovers.....

cdnpinhead

is interesting.

"Back in the day," when I worked on my own and my two roommates MGB's, pulling the engine was the easy part. Fixing it was moderately harder in those days (early seventies), but a much bigger deal these days with today's anal procedures and woefully expensive parts -- has anyone on this or any other board recently purchased a gasket kit?

Didn't think so. Sounds like replacing the whole bloody thing is the right thing to do.

oldsman01

At least they gave you a Caddy while yours is "under the knife." How do you like the Deville?

sevenfeet0

In case you're wondering where some of Cadillac's budget money is going these days since the cancellation of the racing program, I got to witness some of it first hand this evening.

In Atlanta tonight, Cadillac sponsored an art exhibit of a travelling photo exposition by some of the country's leading nature photographers. The exhibit is sponsored by the Nature Conservancy, and underwritten by Merrill Lynch, Cadillac and others.

My wife and I were invited (along with a few hundred other guests) to come to the High Museum in Atlanta for the evening. My Cadillac dealership was nice enough to invite my wife and I to this event. Upon arrival, you got free valet, to where you would get the only real pitch of the evening. Next to valet was a gentleman from Cadillac's marketing group with two models, a CTS and an Escalade EXT. I thought it was interesting that they chose models that I would consider "the new Cadillac" rather than the popular Deville or slower selling Seville models.

Upon getting upstairs, Cadillac provided finger food and an open bar. Food included shrimp cocktail, chicken satay, mussels, a pork filled pastry with apricot sauce, brie, and other nick-nacks. Pretty good spread all around.

Music was provided by a 3 piece band playing what I would describe at South American tradional music from Andes peoples. I'd heard music like this before recently and it was a nice change of pace from music most of you probably listen to.

The photo collection was extraordinary. If this exhibit comes to your city, I recommend taking the time to see it. You'll enjoy the evening and your wife will appreciate a night out doing something different (I know mine did).

After looking at pictures for an hour, dessert was being served. It was mostly finger chocalate layer cakes and lemon squares, but they were all good.

Finally, at valet, I got to spend some more time with the guy from Cadillac. Since I'd already bought (but hadn't taken delivery yet) of my CTS, he didn't need to sell me. But we did discuss the success of the car, and some upcoming changes.

First, there's no real news that hasn't been discussed here already. He did confirm the DVD Navigation system and the changes for the dash panel guages. The new clock will still be analog but will be in the center console where it belongs. There was no word on V-series details. In fact, he seemed to think that the final decision of what kind of engine was going to end up in it hadn't been decided yet, which I thought was interesting. Then again, he did say that he'd tried to pump the performance group for information only to get nowhere, so take any engine talk with a grain of salt.

He was also showing pictures of the XLR and was talking about the SRX, although we didn't get into detail on either product. He did say that he thought that Cadillac had a fair amount of potential upper headroom with the new RWD Northstar engine (up to 370 HP) without resorting to superchargers.

And finally Cadillac left us with a nice parting gift. We haven't opened it yet, but I would guess it's an album of photos printed from the exhibit. All in all, this was a nice evening and certainly something different to do with my wife. The selling part was expected, but not harsh or obtrusive. It will not hurt Cadillac's mindshare to do more of these events.

regfootball

in the form of a new 3.6 corporate world developed GM engine instead of the rehased Opel motor should go a long way towards getting a decent engine in the CTS....

of course there's always the GM faithful who think the 3800 should be in every GM car and that its the greatest thing since sliced bread.

cadillac1

I really must say the CTS sure has been quite reliable for a first year car. I am not an owner but I go buy what people are saying, as well as the fact their have not been any recalls. Heck, even the Infinit G35 has a recall. They are recalling 20,300 for fuel line problems that could cause a fire. I am not saying this to knock infinit, as 1st year problems happen to every manufacturer, but the CTS has so far mostly avoided this.

fjk57702

At least the 3800 is fairly easy to maintain. The FWD northstars are horrible - to replace the power steering pump, which is located on top of the front of the engine, requires removal of the radiator and about two days work.

But, for all the money spent on "reengineering the 3800 (1985, 1991, 1995) they should have been able to at least develope an overhead cam version.

sevenfeet0

This engine has been reengineered so many times, its amazing that its anything like its 1962 ancestor. Yeah, it's been around almost as long as the Chevy small-block.

I remember Buick even running a TV ad years ago touting the 3800's reliability and its "lack of sheer number of parts" compared to overhead cam engines. That's true and the 3800 is generally considered very reliable. But OHC engines have their own advantages and appeal.

dindak

Cheap to own, maintain, fix with rock solid reliability. For your average A to B driver, it's probably the best V6 engine choice around.

b4z

The 3800 is good enough. Series II motors have a thermoplastic intake manifold. They sometimes warp from the engine heat. My upper manifold base warped and leaked coolant. Evidently they keep parts for this because I arrived at my dealership at 9AM one morining without an appointment. Four hours later I was on my way. The only way they could have done this was if the parts were kept in stock.

I still think that GM could have spent a little development money on the Shortstar to help it meet 2003 emissions. Put that engine in the CTS and make it optional on the w body cars to spread development cost.

There was supposedly a 225 hp version of the engine with 240 lbs of torque. Nobody on this thread would have complained about power if there was a shortstar in the engine bay.
All of us wbody owners would have been pretty happy too.
I guess the only major design issue was that the shortstar was engineered for FWD and not RWD.

eaton53

Who have bought early examples of the Intrigue because they wanted 3800's instead of the 3.5.

b4z

The 3.5L has proven to be a very durable engine.
They can have some oil usage issues like the Northstar has but it seems to be stable.
One of the posters on edmund's reports a quart every 1500 miles. Mine used a half a quart every 3000 and then stabilized to 0 oil usage after the engine broke in.

Like all 4 valve engines it is a little soft off the line. This is why Caddy puts a 3.71 gear in the 300hp version of the Northstar. The Intrigue came with a 3.29 and a 3.05 gear.

I have the 3800 in my Impala and I prefer the Shortstar. It is smooth as glass and wants to rev.
It's kickown at 65 mph will throw you back in the seat. And it's 30 mph kickdown into first would sometimes chirp the tires.

dindak

It's a fantastic motor and is always silky smooth. I saw a guy on Hot Rod TV that put one in his 195x Chevy which I thought was funny as this Shortstar is about as modern an engine as you can get and it just didn't suit the classic car it was in.

Ah well, I'm sure the next generation of GM engines hitting the market next year will be just fine. Cadillac CTS gets one and the next generation Malibu gets a new 3.2L DOHC making around 200 hp.

baron87

But the new 3.2 will not be ready for the 2004 Malibu, the new Malibu will start out with the 3100 (gasp!).

Anyway, back to the CTS...

vcjumper

That is hilariously bad. So much for meeting Accord/Camry head on. Ok now back to CTS.

regfootball

what????? THE NEW BU WILL GET THE 3100? OMG ROTFLMAO!

well that kills that idea. Maybe a Mazda 6, Altima, Maxima, or base 9/3......

b4z

The shorstar wasn't ready for the intrigue in '98.
The High Feature engine wasn't ready for the CTS in '02
And the 3.2 won't be ready for the Malibu in '04.
Is there a pattern here?

dindak

Where did you get that info? Everywhere I've read they mention the new V6 as the optional for the Malibu.

fjk57702

This 3.2 should be based on the same design as the CTS's new 3.6, so I would expect it to go into production shortly after the 3.6, probably on the same assembly line.

sevenfeet0

Don'e forget the Northstar wasn't ready for the '92 Seville and Eldorado. GM engine programs in recent years always seem to trail the cars the market.

fjk57702

Actually, the 92 seville went into production early. It should have had the Aurora platform design, which probably was running behind perhaps, and Cadillac realized that the mid-eighties Seville design was hurting them, so the 92 Seville was quickly put into production without the Aurora platform, but did get an upgraded deville platform.

b4z

Didn't it have one of the worst engines Caddy has put out?
Everyone raves about the 4.5L but I heard that the 4.9L needed to be rebuilt after 90,000 miles.