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Comments
Details:
(1) Cost of electricity is $0.29/gge.
PHILL draws 800 W = 0.80 kW to pump 0.42 gge/hr. Assume marginal electricity rate is $0.15/KWH
($0.15/kwh)(0.8 kW)/(0.42gge/hr) = $0.29/gge
(2) Cost of NG is $0.84/gge.
Assume 114 cu ft NG = 1 gge.
Dallas ATMOS Energy current marginal rate for NG, incl 7.625% tax, surcharges etc., but not connection fee, is $7.39/MCF, 1 MCF = 1000 cu ft.
($7.39/1000 cu ft)(114 cu ft/gge) = $0.84/gge
PHILL=Is It Still Worth the $(6 months later)
YES. YES. YES!
Even with the $3,500.00 purchase price and $1,800.00 installation(just gas plumbing and PHILL setup. I did the electrical)
I would NOT have been able to make my monthly budgets balance here in So. Cal. without my 2001-GX and PHILL.
That's not even figuring the time saved by solo in the carpool or the 3+lane(free) on the 91 FASTRACK lanes.
I still need to fill the 30 gal gas tank on my full sized Ford Van. But I only need to buy gasoline maybe a couple of times a month.
What works great for me is to refuel the GX when it gets about 1/2 a tank. I start PHILL about 5-6pm and it shuts off about 4-5-6am. NO Waiting! NO ATM Fee's! And my Natural Gas bill is $100.00 a month total(I have teenage girls)!
I still need to buy CNG at the far-flung public stations here in So. Cal.
(cheap GPS navigation devices make the search for these public CNG station at 3am MUCH EASIER)
We still don't have our AQMD rebates(I bought PHILL in Sept. 2005).
I have never had any problems with my PHILL it just works.
Any PHILL users here in So. Calif. figured out what we are paying per GGE lately?
So purchase price and installation totalled $5300? If so, this may be worth it you, but it seems rather high to me.
Of course, I don't know how much gas plumbing was required in your case. If one hired a regular gas plumber to establish gas supply at a certain point, and put in a dedicated 120V 15A circuit oneself or had an electrician do it, then what would be a reasonable charge for installation of a PHILL? Let's say $80/hr, how many hours would it take for an experienced installer?
I agree on all counts but now the big question, if your gas supplier is Southern California Gas have you applied for the G-NGV rate? Yes it is now available and should cut your fueling charge a few cents per GGE. With the new rate and solar electric on the house our GGE is now down to about $1.00. We have a second meter just for the Phill so calculating the GGE is not too tough. Now if it was about 6 db more quiet and would do a bit more than .4 GGE per hour it would be perfect.
Regards,
PFM
Enough of the geek stuff, it is a great add if you have a CNG car, even better if you have two!!!!!
Enjoy,
PFM
psi, (same unit, different software and connector to vehicle). might be just a software or dip switch setting.
I still feel like I am cheating while I pass the rest of the freeway gridlocked.
Thanks,
Loran
Thanks,
Chris
I am in Fountain Valley, CA. NO OC Fire Authority permit needed here. Call Fuelmaker and tell them what city you are in. They may have already installed a PHILL in your city.
Sounds like B.S. to me.
Sure simple set my alarm for 2:30 AM go hit the button ;-(
Sorry not my idea of a good time, me I like to sleep. The point here is the Phill is not all that efficient pumping in that last 3% or so. I know it also works the pump all the harder trying to pump it that full. The ability to shut it off say just as the 5th LED turns on would be perfect.
PFM
My Phill is mounted outside, to a stucco wall on a plywood back plate. Mine is running right now as I type and from my living room it is just a bit louder than a fridge or dishwasher running in the kitchen (neither running right this minute) In the garage the noise is about the same. The unit is very well vibration isolated. Make darn sure you read the install manual and watch your contractor, it is very important that the shipping screws get loosened, it allows the compressor to "float" and not beat it's self to death, and your wall with it. You can download the manual at the Phill web site. I would love to see what a nice coating of "Dynamat" the car stereo sound-proofing would do for it. The compressor is part of the noise the rather powerful cooling fan the second. I would not like it on a bed room wall. I am a bit concerned with the windows open during the summer time. I suggest you listen to one run (pumping gas) before you pick a wall, might think about backing in the garage and putting the Phill on the other side of the garage. My installer has not put one inside a garage yet. There is also a post from a city inspector on this board that has a good point about fire, not even starting as a car fire but the added fuel in CNG form could be well HOT.
By the way I am not negative about the Phill, it is working well saving us money and offering convenience of not stopping for fuel. It has been a good purchase.
Regards,
PFM
Thanks
Liaquat
Thanks for the detailed description of the noise level. Just to confirm it sounds like the Phill shares a outside wall with your living room is that correct?
If anyone has a Phill unit in the SO Cal (LA, OC, IE) I would love to stop by and hear it run, I'll even buy you a coke or pepsi! I am located in Upland.
The larger FMQ2-36 is close to the noise level of a clothes drier.
Neither have prompted any noise complaints that I know of here. Outside wall in the garage is always the easiest install and the quietest. The install price will depend on how much gas piping, electric work for the dedicated groundfault 110 circuit, and route of the exhaust fan, wheither it goes straight out the wall or if you have to go through the ceiling and roof or have to duct it, and then the pressure relief line to the outside and ending above the roof line.
Dave
Less than a year later, I had a 'manifold o-ring' blow out, so, next time I have a compressor change, I'm going to have him change those O-rings while he's there!
I am in LaPuente if you would like to hear it run.
PFM
I have heard your name before in AZ circles. What GGE performance do you expect from a Phill? Do you see the fill rate taper off as the tank begins to gain pressure? I do not feel nine hours for what should be a 2.5 GGE fill seems right even if you remove one hour for drying. I am doing a more accurate test tonight, I will need about 3 GGE tonight and may not have enough time before I leave for work in the AM to fill the tank. I am just looking for your experience.
Thanks,
PFM
My last test did just .298 GGE per hour after I took out one hour for "dryer time". The test was this I started my day with a full tank, drove 98 miles, at 7:20 PM I started the Phill, my dedicated gas meter read 517.980 cubic meters. The Phill turned off at 5:36 AM the next day the gas meter read 528.650 cubic meters. My not so great math says this is 10.67 cubic meters pumped and converts to 2.758 GGE (I have checked the math a few times I hope it is correct)and a run time of 10.25 hours (yes I rounded off the minute)less the one hour dry time is 9.25 hours.
Would you contact Fuel Maker if one of your systems had this performance? I was going to run one more check and then drop them a line.
Again thanks for the input.
PFM
I am not a pro but will repeat what I have been told (seems to check OK to me too) 1.14 Therms = 1 GGE, therms are what you are billed in from the gas company, From another source 127 ft^3 = 1 GGE, and from yet another 1 M^3 = .278 GGE. You can push the numbers around from there if you like.
G-NGVR Rate is $0.8878 per therm plus .35 / day meter fee (you pay one with or without a CNG car and $5.00 / month, or a good deal. That works out to $1.01 / GGE plus about $.33 per fill filling my Honda every other day. I did not factor in the meter rental as I already pay that.
Electricity is a bit different to calculate, a lot depends on how much power you already use and what rate you pay, we have a solar system and pay very little for the electric power to fill the tank.
I hope this is of some help.
PFM
Taking the second one,
1 m^3 = 0.278 gge
(1/0.278) m^3 = 1 gge
3.597 m^3 = 1 gge, and
3.597 m^3 (3.281 ft/m)^3 = 127.0 ft^3, so
127 ft^3 = 1 gge.
Here in Dallas our natural gas consumption is recorded by the 'MCF' which must be thousand cubic feet. But there are several surcharges and adjustments which must in effect account for the heat of combustion of the specific gas being supplied at that time.
From wikipedia:
The therm (symbol thm) is a non-SI unit of heat energy. It is approximately the energy equivalent of burning 100 cubic feet (often referred to as 1 CCF) of natural gas at standard temperature and pressure (STP).
A therm factor is used by gas companies to convert the volume of gas used to its heat equivalent, and thus calculate the actual energy use. It is usually in the units therms/CCF. Since a therm is close to the heat output of 1 CCF of gas under normal conditions, the factor usually is close to 1.
Therm (EC) = 105 506 000 joules (Official Journal L 073, P. 0114 27 March 1972). This is equivalent to 100,000 BTUIT. The therm (EC) is often used by engineers within the US.
Combustion of one cubic metre of commercial quality natural gas yields 38 megajoules (10.6 kWh). Equivalently, one cubic foot of natural gas produces 1031 British Thermal Units (BTUs).
In the USA, at retail, natural gas is often sold in units of therms (th); 1 therm = 100,000 BTU.
So 1 ft^3 of NG -> 1031 BTU = 1031 BTU(1 therm/10^5 BTU) = 1 ft^3 -> 0.01031 thm or 100 ft^3 -> 1.03 thm.
The conversion 1.14 therm = 1 gge is therefore equivalent to 111 ft^3 = 1 gge which is 13 % smaller than the other value of 127 ft^3 = 1 gge.
It would be interesting to know if there is a standard value agreed upon.
The value on another site (Union Gas) is 1015 BTU/ft^3, conversion from 37.8 MJ/m^3. If this is used, I get 113 ft^3 = 1 gge. Perhaps the safest thing is to use the ave, 120 ft^3 = 1 gge.
GGE
GGE
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
GGE (or Gasoline gallon equivalent) is the amount of alternative fuel it takes to equal the energy content of one liquid gallon of gasoline. We can use compressed natural gas (CNG) as an example here. Since CNG is a gas rather than a liquid, its volume is measured in cubic feet (CF), rather than in gallons. Therefore, GGE is a way of comparing equivalent volumes of fuel based on their energy content in British Thermal Units (BTU).
The GGE of CNG is 127 cubic feet. This volume of CNG has the same energy content as one gallon of gasoline (based on 900 BTU/CF of CNG and 114,100 BTU/gallon of gasoline).
When consumers refuel their CNG vehicles in the USA, the CNG is usually measured and sold in GGE units. This is fairly helpful as a comparison to gallons of gasoline.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGE"
Categories: Units of energy
The monthly charge increases from about $5.00 to $10.00 and the gas is sold for $0.78 per therm. The total gas bill will be about 12% lower.
There is a form at the Gas Company web site for the new rate.
What do you need to do to use the 91 toll road? I thought you "had to have" a transponder to use the toll road.
Thanks in advance
PFM
Just go to www.thetollroads.com.
Sign up online. When you get your transponder you can use the Fast Trak lane on the 91 frwy. When you get to the the transponder reader station make sure you drive in the 3+ lane.
Depending on the time of day it should be FREE!
PLEASE NOTE that all the other TOLL ROADS in O.C. DO NOT offer any discount to us GX owners just the 91 frwy.
What would the fee's be for rush hour drive times in the 3+ lane?
The issue of the 3+ access is one that has been hotly debated here on the forum. Those of us that have had NGVs for 5 or more years started using the 91 3+ lane way back when - it was policy at that time to give a 1/2 price discount for alternate fuel vehicles.
More recently some of the newer NGV drivers have been told by the Fastrak people that there is no discount for alternate fuel vehicles. I called OCTA (owners of the 91) and got the run around from an ill informed youth, poorly trained in the art of customer service.
My position, and it may not be shared by others, is that back in the old days they granted us access to the 3+ lane (I think we had to have it noted on our account) - I have never been notified that my access to the 3+ lane has been revoked.
Furthermore, motorcycles are allowed to use the 3+ lane for free. I analogize this to the use of the regular car pool lane and apply the logic that if a solo motor cycle can use the car pool lane and the 3+ lane, then I am eligible to do the same.
Regardless of your decision to use the 3+ lane you will need a transponder, without one you will be ticketed.
With regard to the "free" parking - I have never tested the waters in Santa Monica, but I agree with Scott as long as you comply with the posted restrictions there is no need to put money in the meters. As far as Los Angeles, I too have had tickets overturned based on my DMV paperwork.
Hope this helps.
There aren't any people watching the 3+ lane on the 91 toll road.
I asked the toll road people the same question 10 years ago when I had my VW bus. I told them "I have two little kids in carseats in the back of my VW bus with curtains on the windows. I am going to get in trouble because the person watching the 3+ lane won't be able to see them?"
The lady at the toll roads told me don't worry about it.
So I haven't worried about it and in the 10+ years I've had a transponder I never ever have been charged the regular toll. The RUSH HOUR toll is Monday through Friday 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. in the eastbound direction when these users(3+)pay 50 percent of the toll. All the details are @ www.91expresslanes.com
www.91expresslanes.com/generalinfo/tollpolicy.asp
"Vehicles with three or more persons (HOV3+), zero emission vehicles (ZEVs), motorcycles, disabled plates and disabled veterans are permitted to ride free in the 91 Express Lanes during most hours. The exception is Monday through Friday 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. in the eastbound direction when these users pay 50 percent of the toll."
Does anyone dissagree with the fact that under the law we are considered ZEV's?
I don't think that the CNGs qualify as ZEV, some are ULEV and some ULEV II, depends on what you drive.
Here is a link to the eligible vehicles for the carpool lanes - it gives the ratings, only all electric vehicles get the ZEV rating. The newer Civics are ATPZEV (Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle).
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm
If you look father back on the forum you will see that this has been discussed before, with quite a difference of opinion.
I use the 3+ and will continue to do so.
Well I checked on line and saw on the application to contact 91 Expresslanes, I was informed the ONLY cars allowed are ZEV's that is an EV, as they explained not a hybrid or CNG vehicles. I do not use the 91 often, thank God but thought it would be handy. I do not doubt some of you have had good luck but I will pass unless someone has a contact with better information you would like to share.
Regards,
PFM
I know what the policy for the Fastrak says and I have had the dubious pleasure of dealing with their staff - the question that no one has answered at Fastrak - exactly what ZEVs are on the market and available to the public? Currently I don't think there are any, rather odd to have a policy allowing ZEVs to use the 3+ for free when there aren't any available, don't you think?
Are you kidding some of the laws still on the books in this country would make you die laughing. I think in Tennessee you can still have a duel. Criminals have three times more rights than victims and you think the car pool rules are odd. You are probably right I can only think of 1 EV still being made a three wheeler deal, I am sure that little company petitioned the right group LOL. As often as I head that way I will do without the 91 express for right now anyway.
Regards,
PFM
was Doctor Drain from Pomona, CA and the install went smoothly. I will
post pictures in the gallery once I get the second gas meter installed.
Final prices:
$1650 for Phill unit, shipping and external gas sensor after AQMD rebate
$2000 for Installation (ouch!). Would have done the install myself if
it was allowed by FuelMaker.
Since there is a $1000 tax credit for the installation of a AFV
refueling station total out of pocket expense should be $2650.
The unit is very quiet the cooling fan makes most of the noise and
almost no vibration is trasmitted to the walls or gas line. The unit
took overnight (7-8 hours) to fill my GX from about 1/2 a tank so looks
like it would be best to always connect up at about 1/2 a tank.
Feel free to ask questions or if you would like to see/hear the unit
run I am located in Upland.