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All About PHILL

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    hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    There are several around. The problem is the certifications. The Phill is certified as a Home Appliance. None of the rest have gotten certs that would allow them to be sold in the US and the other one I know of, which I really like is a hydrolic ram type. But again, not available for purchase.
    Curtis
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    hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    I spoke to Fuelmaker at the Alt Fuels Expo in Anaheim on 4/3/07. They confirmed the price increase to $4,000 effective 4/1/07 (as I recall) but that their goal was to get production up to thepoint that they could bring it back down to the $2,000 price tag... although they couldn't say as to when that may happen... if ever.
    Curtis
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    xpacificxpacific Member Posts: 16
    Dear Valued Customer:

    FuelMaker would like to thank you for your continued interest in its Home Refueling Appliance “Phill”. Since the introduction of Phill to the market place, FuelMaker has tried its best to maintain Phill’s price as low as possible. Unfortunately because of rising costs and other factors beyond our control, FuelMaker can no longer maintain the price at the present level. As of April 2nd, the price of Phill will be in the range of $3,982 to $4,296 depending on your refueling scenario. This does not include installation and shipping costs.

    We do wish to give you the opportunity to purchase Phill at the price you were quoted. Therefore, we are offering you a two week period, from the date you receive this letter, in which you may purchase Phill at the old price. If you would like to take advantage of this offer, all you need to do is call FuelMaker’s customer service department at 1-866-697-4455 (toll free) between the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, and we will be more than happy to fill your order.

    Thank you for your understanding and continued support.

    Best Regards,
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    xpacificxpacific Member Posts: 16
    As per my earlier post here, unless your local government provides incentives, I feel that Phill makes little economic sense. If an outside install is OK for your needs, then my suggestion is you contact your local FuelMaker dealer to see if they can find you a refurbished FMQ-2. (note that FM dealers generally will NOT sell outside of their territory).
    http://fuelmaker.com/Dealers/

    Our SLC dealer sourced a 3600psi model for me at around $4k + his install time. Scrolling down to the bottom of the following web page gives some good photos of what the FMQ-2 looks like installed. Note the installation with a remote panel -- this is an attractive option if you want to hide the main compressor unit away from view.
    http://fuelmaker.cz/com/foto/foto.htm

    Also, you can sometimes find used "FM4" or even occasionally older "C3" units on eBay, but these only fill to 3000psi. The last FM4 sold for $3k a month ago.

    I will post some photos if my installation once it is completed later this month.
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    kermit4kermit4 Member Posts: 9
    We got our Phill installed a few weeks ago. The convenience factor is fantastic, but the fill quality has been so-so, only getting up to one square below the top fill mark on our GX. Should we be expecting a Phill fill to regularly hit the top fill mark? Is there anything we can do to get a better quality of fill from Phill? We hook up the compressor in the evening, so running the compressor during the heat of the day shouldn't be the issue.
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    hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    You should be getting a comlete fill. If you are not, I suggest you call your installer back to figure out why. If he doesn't have an answer for you I would call Fuelmaker Tech support/Customer Service at 1-866-269-4455.Curtis
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    bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    kermit it's probably the guage on your car and not likely the Phill unit. Go to a station you know historiclly has good pressure, I hate to say it but try a C.E. station just for this test. See why the guage is after the fast fill.

    I've sold many GX's where I've notice the same issue.

    Murphy
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    kermit4kermit4 Member Posts: 9
    The Pasadena station has generally been a good one for us--we get a fill up to the top line there. Got one of those good fills there just a week or two before getting Phill installed, so I'm doubtful that the gauge went wonky within that short a time. I'll call the installer and see if he has any suggestions.
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    biggjohnbiggjohn Member Posts: 2
    If you fuel 2 1/2 GGEs per day, the Phill has a life expectancy of just over 2 1/2 years (2,520 GGE Compressor Service Life). The $2,000 cost of a remanufactured unit doesn't include the costs associated with de-installation and re-installation (approx. $750) or shipping ($300 - $500).

    The same scenario using an FMQ2-36 has a compressor service life of over 4 1/2 years (4,000 hours). The cost of rebuilding the compressor (in the field) is about $700 + the cost of the service call.

    While the AQMD does not offer it's buydown on the FMQ2-36, both units are eligible for the $1,000 Federal tax credit. (Give the AQMD a call and ask why they're supporting a specific unit instead of the best technology.)

    The Phill also uses more than twice as much energy to operate because it runs over twice as long (per GGE).

    When you consider that the Phill:
    1) Can only be rebuilt a maximum of 3 times (vs. unlimited compressor rebuilds for the FMQ2-36).
    2) A fill rate of .42 GGE (vs. 1.0 - 1.2 GGE for the FMQ2-36)
    3) Fills only one vehicle at a time (vs. up to two vehicles with the FMQ2-36)
    4) A remanufactured unit adds over $1.00/GGE to your fueling costs!
    the Phill has a catchy name, but doesn't make good economic sense.

    John
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    kermit4kermit4 Member Posts: 9
    The outdoor installation of the FMQ kills it off as a possibility for many people, including yours truly. Our garage is in front of the house. Even with the remote panel installation, we would have still needed to install anything other than the Phill out in the open, in public view (and within earshot of our neighbors). That makes me very, very nervous! I'm not even sure if we could have gotten permitted for such an installation. If our garage was at the back of our property, behind high, locked gates, that might be a different story.

    Guessing that's why AQMD offers rebates only on the Phill.
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    biggjohnbiggjohn Member Posts: 2
    The FMQ is quieter than an air conditioner package unit. The FMQ has a locking cover protecting it's control panel and hose. My local Building & Safety Department says that either the FMQ2-36 or the Phill would be permitted, but not in the line of sight of the street. A remote panel can be installed either indoors or out with the FMQ installed in a secure location. Building & Safety will allow a remote panel and hose to located in the line of sight of the street.

    If central air is generally permitted in your community, the FMQ is probably a viable option.
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    chileflyerchileflyer Member Posts: 1
    I live in Ventura county and was just denied the Gas Company approval to install a Home Refueling Appliance.

    I was denied to my area NOT MEETING CARB requirements.

    The Gas company was not very helpful explaining why in all LA county these units are acceptable and only said "The engineers have determined CARB limits can't be meet in Ventura County". I live in a new area of Camarillo in Mission oaks and still shocked with this notice. They said to call CARB as they are the ones who are causing the issue.

    I then called and spoke to the CARB regulations office for a lengthy conversation with the main person which is involved with regs. Since I'm an engineer , it was very enlightening to understand the issue. It appears there are 2 issues. 1) CARB requirements are GENERAL and lump Light duty cars and commercial vehicles into one category and 2) The Gas company's ability to control HOT gas in our area.

    I approached this GREEN car purchase to help my county after reading the LA times articles promoting CNG cars and the Ventura Clean Air Quality Improvement.

    Does anyone have advice to getting PHILL approved in Ventura county?

    CARB really explained the Gas Company owns the problem to work on Natural gas delivery in my area but also explained the light duty vehicles are not what CARB regulations were initially written for .. They expect improved categories to avoid these issues in 1-2 years.

    Is there any assistance anyone can offer?

    ChileFlyer
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    hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    Ihad this discussion with SoCal Gas last year. The way the Alt Fuels division explained it was that there are several sources of gas supplying different communities. Some of those sources pump well grade (hot) gas that has not had the Butane, Ethane and other trace gas' deperated out. One such line comes from Bakersfield and feeds several communities in the Valencia area, as well as others. Several of the beach communities receive the same, unrefined, gas from one, or more, offshore rigs. This includes such areas as Santa Barbara and points south along the coast.
    The newer, computer controlled cars can handle it fine, and the law has been removed from the books in every state except Ca. There was an attempt to do away with it in January of this year but either was unsuccessful or was unable to get to this item on the agenda before the session ended. The situation is not dead and it is hopeful that the ruling will be changed (hopefully in Jan. '08) to reflect more current technologies, thereby allowing home refueling for those of you currently being denied.
    Curtis
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    bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    Who you would want to get involved because the have the political power as well as a vested interest to get this overturned is Fuelmaker. We all know Fuelmaker is backed by Honda. If all fails gets a used one and do it yourself.

    Murph
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    jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    I suggest sending a letter, email, and call your local congressman and Arnold the Governator.
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    bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    Even better get with the Governators office and tell him to stop being a "girly man" and step up.
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    grngurlgrngurl Member Posts: 2
    I purchased a Honda Civic GX last November with the intention of installing a home fueler as well. I live in San Luis Obispo County and am facing the same denials you are.

    I have been working with our local Air Pollution Control Board representative who is collecting information from American Honda to certify that the 'hot gas' will not damage the vehichle. (This is one of the arguments used by the CARB) He is preparing to submit a request for a waiver of the regulations for San Luis Obispo County.

    My understanding is that the natural gas for Ventura, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, and Monterey Counties does not comply with the CARB regulations as they stand. We need to get these regulations updated to allow installation of home fueling!

    Contact your local APCB and find out who can help to pursue this matter. From what I got it sounds like we need someone who knows how to navigate red tape in order to get the request for a waiver to the right people.

    I have the only CNG Honda in this county right now, and have only met one other person with an CNG passenger vehicle. I would be happy to join up with anyone out there who wants to pursue this more assertively with CARB. I find it obscene that the organization that is supposed to be helping to keep our air clean is creating this barrier to cleaner air!
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    allan_gxallan_gx Member Posts: 3
    My Los Angeles SoCalGas approval was also denied because the gas does not meet the California Air Resources Board (CARB) standards. I was referred to the CARB folks. They explained the gas is "associated" with oil being pumped and has too much BTU content (referred to elsewhere as “hot gas”.) The nice folks at the CARB also said they had issued some waivers to fleet refueling stations for evaluation purposes and they would not give me a waiver.

    The 2007 Honda Civic GX owner’s manual says on page 6 “The natural gas you use to refuel must meet NFPA-52 and SAE J1616 standards for fuel composition and quality.”
    “If you use a fuel that does not meet these standards, you may feel a decrease in engine power and your vehicle’s emissions controls may be damaged.”

    The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Standard relates to fuel content and costs $59
    http://www.sae.org/technical/standards/J1297_200209

    The National Fire Protection Association looks like it mostly applies to fire safety and costs $36.50
    http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?category_name=&pid=5206&target_pid=5206&src_pid=&link_type=search

    I’m wondering of SoCalGas is contacting all the folks that they “approved” to let them know the gas they are supplying no longer meets the standards of the CARB.

    I’m also wondering of the standards of the CARB are the same as NFPA-52 and SAEJ1616.

    I’m also wondering if SoCalGas is supplying the same natural gas to my house as to the Clean Energy station down the street in Santa Monica.

    I’ll call FuelMaker tomorrow and see if they can work with Honda to work with CARB, AQMD, Clean Energy, and SoCalGas to let Honda tell CARB that the gas is just fine for our cars as it meets the standards required by Honda.

    On the other hand, if it does not meet the standards, then perhaps Honda can ask SoCalGas to let us all know what stations do meet the standards and close the stations that do not meet the standards so the world is once again safe for the cleanest internal combustion engine automobile on the planet.

    It might help us get more assistance if the other folks that have been “denied” could also call FuelMaker so they understand there may be some impact to their sales in multiple counties in California. So far we’ve got denials in Los Angeles, Ventura, and San Luis Obispo Counties.
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    lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    Kind of strange that the So Cal Gas base in Santa Barbara , the Clean Energy station in S L O , and Fleet's can get a waiver to dispense the "Hot Gas" as motor fuel.

    Something smells bad here and the smell is not coming from a home refuel appliance.

    Time to call the C.A R.B and then call The "Governator". Maybe the Sacramento Bee and LA Times would like to know about this crap.
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    allan_gxallan_gx Member Posts: 3
    The chap at CARB said SoCalGas can "mix" their products so the big guys get a gas that meets the CARB standard so it may be that the only exemption was for a fleet user that was willing to have their vehicles examined after some period of use (no idea what it took to get the exemption.)

    On the other hand, maybe every CNG station is pumping gas that does not meet the CARB standard. I wonder how to find out the real story.
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    grngurlgrngurl Member Posts: 2
    I am actively working with my APCB representative here in San Luis Obispo County. He has already contacted American Honda which has confirmed that the 'hot' gas will NOT damage the Honda engines. This is one of the pieces we need to provide CARB to underscore the importance of revising their requirements.

    I cannot speak to the contents of the gas being supplied in SoCal. My understanding that it is actually a different composition than that of ours up in Ventura, Santa Barbara, and San Luis Obispo Counties.

    I do think it would be helpful to have several of us pursuing the same goal here - that of getting the CARB to revise its requirements. This way, new NGV owners would not have to go through all of this red tape.
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    lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    The chairman of the CARB was fired this week by the gov. Maybe it is a good time to call the gov's office to get the rule changed on an expedited basis.
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    allan_gxallan_gx Member Posts: 3
    I spoke with FuelMaker this morning and it sounds like Honda has provided CARB with documentation that the "hot gas" is ok for the Civic GX. Not sure if anything will happen but at least they are communicating.
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    99civiccng99civiccng Member Posts: 9
    Anyone know if an existing install of a Phill system can be moved to another location? My dad has a Phill system and doesn't need/want it anymore. And I'm game. Especially since I can't get anyone at Fuelmaker to return my call about getting a new one installed!

    I'm trying to figure out if I can bypass Fuelmaker and just go to an authorized installer (no idea how to get this info, either) and have it installed at my house.

    I'm in the same city as my dad so I'm 99% sure my gas meets with CARB regulations
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    lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    Should be no problem at all. An authorized installer will charge you about $1200 to hang it on the wall and connect to existing gas and electrical outlets , and much more if any additional work is needed.

    Any plumbing or Heating contractor can can pull a permit and do the job for a fraction of that cost. Shouldn't take more than 3 hours at $80 - $95 per hour. The permit will not be much, unless you have to deal with the Orange County Fire Authority. Go for it! :)
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    fchanesfchanes Member Posts: 2
    How long can I go on the fill line? I need to run another 10 feet. Is a straight hose available? Do I need to jump through the PHILL hoops to get one? Thanks.
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    hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    The 10' line on the Phill is the only option available. I've spoken to Fuelmaker about this just recently. The only way around it would be unauthorized and dangerous modifications.
    Curtis
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    cngusercnguser Member Posts: 59
    Sounds like your unit is not close enough to the vehicle - maybe consider having it relocated for convenience & safety?
    OR
    Look at FuelMaker site - there are other home fuelers available with quicker fill rates. I have an FMQ-2 with an optional 25 ft hose. Note these units MUST be located outdoors, not inside. Uses 220 VAC @ 6 AMPS. But you can get a remote panel/fill hose to mount inside if desired.
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    hdj3hdj3 Member Posts: 5
    Since installing your Phill system at home, what is your gas bill like now? Approximately how much do you save by filling with natural gas versus unleaded in a one month period? Thanks
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    hdj3hdj3 Member Posts: 5
    Has anyone bought a used Honda GX and how is it running? I'm currently looking for one in Los Angeles, fond a few at Honda of Thousand Oaks.
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    jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    I bought my '99 GX back in August last year with 50k for $7,500. I have put about 30k on it and have not had any problems. I average about 35-36 mpg with about 85% freeway driving 75+mph.
    It's saving me a ton of money on my 140 nile commute!
    J
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    hdj3hdj3 Member Posts: 5
    Wow, that's a great deal. Did you buy the GX through a dealership? If so, is it hard to haggle with a dealer because it's a GX? Honda GX's aren't exactly selling like crazy, so I'm thinking that dealers want to get rid of them. Thanks.
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    dejapoohdejapooh Member Posts: 40
    I bought my new Civic GX at the Thousand Oaks Honda. I love the car (as much as I can love a car), but I would not go back any time soon. I really needed a car and just wanted to buy one. I should have shopped around more. There is a guy who's posted here and on the yahoo CNG newsgroup who is from the Antelope Valley Honda and he seemed more willing to work on Price. The cars come up for sale on Ebay pretty regularly (there is a dealership somewhere in like Azusa that has them on occasion). Finally of course there is CNGmotors.com in Arizona. They charge a bit for shipping to So Cal, but their prices are about Blue Book for a gasoline fuel car. When I looked a few days ago, they had a few in stock along with the the FS2 (they discount additional fuel tanks and home fueling stations). I've also found a few on the other used car websites.

    used CNG cars seem to be getting harder to find.
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    jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    I bought it on E-Bay from a used car dealer in Tujunga, CA.
    Initially the deal went fine, but after a few months I never got my plates. I had to smog the car to get the plates and the dealer never reimbursed be for the test. A few months later I got a flat and realized I had no jack.
    It was owned by the city of LA, is in great shape except for a few very small door dings.
    Before I bought the car I checked KBB, and they did not list the GX, but a comparable gasoline Civic was listed for about 9,100 retail, so it looked like a good deal.
    J
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    dejapoohdejapooh Member Posts: 40
    Why were the plates delayed? Did the dealer make good on the jack?

    The plates took 3 months for my new car and you can buy a jack for about $100 I guess. If it is a good enough deal... I would say you were still ahead.
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    jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    I checked with the DMV at the time (Thru the Auto Club) and the paperwork had been sent back to the dealer as incomplete. Then I contacted the dealer and it took a few days for them to finally get back to me.
    I just took the scissor jack out of my van, I have a floor jack I leave in it anyway.
    J
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    epnfrnepnfrn Member Posts: 87
    this has nothing to do with the topic ... you guys might want to move to new forum.
    epi
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    whooliawhoolia Member Posts: 6
    I can't speak for all gas utilities, but here in Southern California my friend got a Phill system, and now he's paying less than $1 per gasoline gallon equivalent. And the same discount is now applied to his entire home gas bill. Even though prices float, that's still a great discount!
    So I'm in the process of getting a Phill installed. Not the simplest process, by the way, but I figure it will be worth it. First step here in California is to apply with your local utility for them to evaluate if your local gas meets standards set by the State. If your utility is Southern California Gas Company, go to http://socalgas.com/business/ngv/homefueling.shtml and then click on Letter of Intent.
    whoolia
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    hdj3hdj3 Member Posts: 5
    Thanks. I got approved by the Gas Company. I got an estimate from the a local Phill installer, he is charging $1400.00. The actual Phill hardware is around $4000.00. I'm looking at close to $6k. I know there are incentives like the refund, tax credit and having a carpoo sticker, I just think that's pricey for this Phill system. I gonna try to get a 2nd estimate for a Phill installation.
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    xpacificxpacific Member Posts: 16
    You might want to consider getting another FuelMaker product other than Phill. There are often used FM4's (fill to 3000 psi) out on eBay for under $4,000 and are infinitely rebuildable as opposed to Phill crapping out on you after 6,000 hours (only 3,000 gallons). If you do get a used one be sure to contact your local FuelMaker dealer to get it checked-out and installed. You might also find a used FM-Q2-36 which fills up to 3600 psi.
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    hdj3hdj3 Member Posts: 5
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    ohmygasohmygas Member Posts: 3
    recently I spoke to the OC-Fire Authority and they mentioned that there are 3 PHILL units in their district.
    So some do get approved.
    I'm currently waiting for my letter from SoCalGas.
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    igotgasigotgas Member Posts: 2
    CP of an eamil I got today first one like this I got in November.

    A specific production run of the refueling nozzle used on the Phill refueling appliance has been recalled by the manufacturer.



    A recalled nozzle can be identified by the “date code” stamped on the nozzle assembly (please refer to the attached picture). The date code can be found on the nozzle hex nut located next to the black plastic handle. If the date code ends with “YO” it has been recalled and is to be exchanged ASAP.



    Could you please verify the date code on the refueling hose nozzle, thank you? Please let us know ASAP, thank you.



    Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or concerns.

    FuelMaker Corporation
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    jvenglassjvenglass Member Posts: 8
    Whats the cost of the PHILL unit for your home? and whats the cost of upkeep
    on the unit?

    How much dose it cost to fill a tank up on the Civic GX at home VS a fuel center?

    I hear honda rents the Home PHILL units? If so how much and dose the Rent fee
    cover any up keep?

    I'm looking at getting a 08 Civic GX and I'm trying to see what the best way
    of going about it is?

    Thanks.
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    hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    The unit runs between $3900 and $4300. Upkeep can be quite expensive if the unit needs repair after the warranty period is up. There is no such thing as a repair for less than $1000.

    Refueling coasts vary depending on your gas co. SoCal Gas (Sempra Utilities) and PG&E offer discounted rates for home refueling. $1.41 this month, vrs $2.30-$2'84 at the pumps. Check cngprices.com for details about public refueling rates.

    Honda now handles the leases on the Phill now. For more info call 310-781-4450 and speak to Christine or Eric. A purchase must be done through Fuelmaker at 866-my-phill. The last warranty program I was aware of was $788 through FM and is worth it's weight in gold for many owners of the unit, as the original warranty is only 12 mo.

    One of my Phill customers that has had several problems (but is under warranty still) said that FM told him that there was no extended warranty program anymore. I have yet to confirm this. I have all the print material from FM in the files section of civicgxngv in Yahoo groups, as there is no way to post it here.

    I would suggest that the Phill is ideal if you are driving 50-60 miles per day or less. Over 100 miles a day and a Phill is not for you. Get an FMQ2-36 as it is designed to handle those gas volumns and will be cheaper to maintain in the long run.
    Curtis
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    jvenglassjvenglass Member Posts: 8
    What do you think about the leases on the Unit from Honda? would that be a
    good way to go if you are buying a new GX Civic?

    How much more is the FMQ2-36 Unit and are there any rebate or deals on them?

    I hear there is a $2000 off from So.Cal. Clean Air or something?

    So at home it would be $1.41 plus the cost of power to run the Phill unit?
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    freedmlfreedml Member Posts: 43
    I had a similar experience to #143 in City of Los Angeles, except neither the inspector nor his supervisor had ever seen or heard of Phill before. I didn't tell them precisely WHAT I was installing, I just pulled a permit to install a 'gas appliance' and showed them the approval symbols on the manual.
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    thebundothebundo Member Posts: 5
    Well, I'm new here, but have been lurking. I bought a new GX today at Dublin (CA) Honda. I take delivery Monday. I already have 2 hybrids, an 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid and a 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid. I previously had a 2004 Civic Hybrid. I'm looking forward to this new area of "green". I want to get a home station somehow, and hook it up myself. I'm a contractor, so it's easy for me. Just need to find a unit at a good price, probably a FMQ2-36
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    hondagxsaleshondagxsales Member Posts: 33
    A Phill is out of the question for self installers unless you find a used one, which is virtually out of the question. Watch EBay, CraigsList, and cngchat.com's "Marketplace" forum for used FM units. They show up on an infrequent basis, but they do show up. Just avoid the FM-3, as it is no longer supported by Fuelmaker for parts.
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    fchanesfchanes Member Posts: 2
    Has anyone had problems with a sticky air flow valve on their Phill unit? Mine is acting up and Fuelmaker says that only a Certified repairman can fix it. They won't sell me one direct. I can easily replace it. Any thoughts on how I can obtain one? Thanks.
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