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All About PHILL

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  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    The Phill price before rebate was $3650 total. The AQMD rebate was $2000 and the rebate was a credit during the purchase of the Phill.
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    moore101,

    Will the second meter provide a greater savings than the reduced rate for "combo" use? That is, the discount now given by socal gas for using one meter for both home and car.
  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    I think the second meter can provide a more "discounted" gas rate than the combined house/car discounted rate. I think there are meter install/rental fees associated with the dedicated meter. Got the meter on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/Excel-Compact-Gas-Meter-G1-6-submeter-specialist_W0QQitemZ76- 01939420QQihZ017QQcategoryZ57117QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    just so I can track how much fuel my car is using plus it is nice that it is pretty small. I just applied for the combined discount which bumps the customer fee from $5 to $10 so we will see if the rate offsets that charge. Once the meter is connected I will ask the gas co about the dedicated NGV rate. I bet they will say nope since they did not install the meter and it is located in my garage.
  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    did you sign up for the combined house/car gas rate? What is the actual discounted rate? How about the dedicated NGV rate? Are the discounts just a percentage off the standard rate or do they provide more basline units?

    Thanks,
    Loran
  • fbaldwinfbaldwin Member Posts: 34
    All of the gas used at the home is billed a the lower rate so a new gas meter is not needed.

    The monthly charge increases from about $5.00 to $10.00 and the gas is sold for a lower rate. The total gas bill will be about 12% lower.

    There is a form at the Gas Company web site for the new rate. It took the Gas Company over a month to respond to my application.

    I did not see any indication of a baseline limit.
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    moor101,

    No, I did not sign up for the combined rate. I'll just wait and see what the gas co does next. I'm thinking that somewhere down the line they will figure out a way to take advantage of the auto users. The less they know the better. They are already selling out to clean energy.

    I understand that the only way to get a 2k rebate/credit for a Phill is to lease one from Honda. The cash purchases are not eligible any longer
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    Wow it has only taken 11 months but I got my AQMD rebate on my CC statement. Anybody else still waiting?
    CORRECTION: I watched the "clean energy" pump video again the other day. "Nozzle Man" is actually "Nozzle Guy". I would like to apologize to "Nozzle Guy" for mis-identifying him in my last post.
  • ngv123ngv123 Member Posts: 18
    I am aware of the $2000 AQMD rebate but I thought the rebate was automatically deducted from the price when purchasing through Fuelmaker?
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    When I purchased mine (2005) I paid full price and just recently received a $2,000 rebate. When my partner purchased hers (2006) The rebate was included. As an aside for thatdeonguy we were credited $2,000 on a B of A Visa. We did not need any credit in that account, so we wrote a check to put the funds into a savings account. The B of A charged us $77.00 as a withdrawal fee. Guess where that credit card is going and I'll make certain to recommend B of A to everybody I know.....NOT!
  • ngv123ngv123 Member Posts: 18
    Yes, the 2k rebate for Phill from AQMD is available for lease only.
  • 1lexigas1lexigas Member Posts: 7
    I am investigating purchasing a Phil, but not with a Honda.
    Someone mentioned that the Phil no longer offers rebates.
    Is that true?
    In my case, I would not be purchasing a Honda.
    I live in Southern Calif. San Diego Gas and Electric.
    If there is no rebate, the conversion payback is much longer.
    Thanks
  • ngv123ngv123 Member Posts: 18
    What type of vehicle are you purchasing? A $2,000 AQMD rebate is still available for leasing Phill through Honda. If you live in the San Diego area you will not qualify for this rebate. Below is the link to South Coast Air Quality Management District (SCAQMD) web page listing cities incorporated within SCAQMD. http://www.aqmd.gov/aqmd/cities.html
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    I know that some people use their PHILL on vehicles other than Honda GX.(i.e. Ford Crown Victoria) I understand that the nozzle that comes with PHILL will NOT necessarily fit other NGV vehicles refueling receptacle. Contact Fuelmaker to see if your vehicle can be made to work with PHILL.
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    Hey fellow So.Cal Gas & So.Cal. Edison, PHILL owners:
    Has anybody figured out what we are paying per G.G.E. for fuel lately. I know the formula for electricity & natural gas computation are somewhere here on the forum.
  • nostrom0nostrom0 Member Posts: 44
    The Phill unit comes with the P36 nozzle connector, which fits 3600 psi vehicles. Most vehicles made after 2000 were 3600 psi. There is a sticker inside the filler door that states the system pressure.

    Bud.
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    I haven't done the Phill math lately, but was at VNY Airport so I stopped for a fill at the local So Cal Gas facility. $2.16 gge, but it would only fill to slightly below the lower "full" mark.
  • crimsntidecrimsntide Member Posts: 4
    Would anyone know who would be the BEST contact at the SCAQMD to see if there is any chance of the rebates for the Phill units to be reinstated? I feel I could start (or contribute) a small campaign to see if this program will be reinstated... I have actually tried calling the AQMD but have not talked to anyone with knowledge on this subject. If any has this information to a DIRECT contact associated with the rebate/incentive, please give up that information!

    Have I heard (or read) correctly that the rebates were only for 100 units sold? Holy cow, that is just SAD! :mad:

    Fueling up at the station by LAX (Aviation/Century), I noticed the price per unit has risen to a whopping $2.49.
    Also, 2 1/2 weeks ago I fueled up for $1.94 in Bellflower, it then increased to $2.04 per GGE and now it's at $2.17...
    Just thought I'd vent... Sorry :sick:
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    GOOD LUCK.
    Those of us who have had to deal with AQMD, So.Cal Gas, local building permits, etc. regarding our PHILL have learned NOBODY really cares except for FUELMAKER.

    Last Summer before the hurricanes the pump price for CNG was around $0.85 a G.G.E. in Fountain Valley, CA. :surprise:
  • 1lexigas1lexigas Member Posts: 7
    I believe there would be interest to have the $2000 rebate reinstated. Who else is interested?
  • ngv123ngv123 Member Posts: 18
    The $2,000 AQMD rebate is available for leasing Phill through Honda.
  • crimsntidecrimsntide Member Posts: 4
    Well, I actually talked to Honda about leasing a Phill unit. It's a 4 year lease @ $39.99 a month, and since it's a lease, the unit goes back to Honda after the term is up. If you want a "service option" it's an extra $10.00 a month. I myself would rather purchase the unit with a rebate in place. It would actually work out to the same price, but after 4 years I could possibly unload the thing or keep using it... Who knows what kind of units would be available by then. Maybe the FMQ - 36 would be more affordable... Is it wrong for me to wonder if Honda Corp. has/had ANYTHING to do with the limitations of the rebates? Now the only rebates are available are with leasing the units - through Honda... Do they (Honda) have any influence over the SCAQMD? Hhmmm.... I am still going to try and findout who is a contact at the SCAQMD for the rebate plan that just ended. I may have to give Fuelmaker a call back also...
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    Your post brought up some interesting items.
    "but after 4 years I could possibly unload the thing or keep using it"
    How long will PHILL last?
    I have 750-999 hours on mine with 10 months usage.
    PHILL will display accumulated hours till 5,999 hours.
    The PHILL Operating Instructions state that at the end of PHILL's life cycle it must be disposed off properly. In Calif. you must obtain a special label that says "HAZARDOUS WASTE". I think Honda wants control of PHILL when we are done with him. So they can recycle or dispose of PHILL legally. Plus they would have access to post usage teardowns to see how the PHILL units performed in real life usage. Remember Honda owns part of FUELMAKER. You would think that Honda would love to sell as many PHILL's & Civic Gx's as possible. But it seems like Honda is still stuck in the fleet market mentality with the GX. And Honda's interest in Fuelmaker may be more forward looking into hydrogen than just CNG.
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    i need to look back to see what the formula is. I am paying $1.22 per therm to So Cal Gas after all the tax and other b.s. is factored in. I am paying $.12 per kw to Edison.
  • lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    On a Lease of PHILL, who get's the rebate ? Honda , or the end user ?
  • rstrst Member Posts: 73
    I think I am paying about $1.74 per GGE for a fill from phill. SoCal Gas and SoCal Edison are the providers. Phill operates at 800 watts. As I understand it the unit operates at just under 1/2 gal per hour.

    1 GGE = 1.25 therms = $1.52 at my rate

    1 KW = $.12 at my rate
  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    Hoda gets the rebate. That is why the lease is $40 per month instead of $70.
  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    Has any one connected a PC to the 9 pin (hopefully serial) port on the bottom of their phill unit? I know the phill can have it's firmware flashed and would think that this port makes it happen. It would be great if other diagnostic information could be captured like the actual gas flow and runtimes. Yes I know it is possible to use the led control pannel to get the unit runtime.

    I am not going to touch it now since my new phill unit is having a problem giving my GX a complete fill. Right now it is only going ~175 miles before the gas gauge goes to critical (below the E line). Before with the LAX fast fill station I could go at least 200.
  • lakewood90712lakewood90712 Member Posts: 108
    Is the gauge on the car going all the way to the higher full mark ?
  • moore101moore101 Member Posts: 39
    Yes but it drops just below Full in about 15 miles.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    Hello everyone. This is my first post to this forum. I have been reading it and thinking about buying a new Civic GX and getting a PHILL for several months now. I appreciate the information posted here very much. I hope you will forgive me if there are things that I don't understand yet, and that you will help me to get it straight.

    In both message number 652 and message number 663, there is mention of a $1000 dollar tax credit for getting a PHILL. According to what I read at http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch12.html, this was a tax deduction that ended on December 31, 2005. I can't find anything about a tax credit for installing PHILL this year. I am aware of the $2000 SCAQMD rebates which are now only available if I lease a PHILL. Is there also a tax credit that I have missed reading about somewhere?

    Thanks in advance for any information on this.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    In my last post, I put a comma after the link to the IRS page. When I clicked to post my message, it made the comma part of the link, so the link doesn't work correctly. The link should be http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch12.html

    Live and learn.
  • nostrom0nostrom0 Member Posts: 44
    Correction: The tax incentive is a deduction, not a tax credit. The deduction is from your gross income, not a credit against your taxes owed.

    "Deduction limit. The maximum deduction you can claim for clean-fuel vehicle refueling property placed in service at one location is $100,000. To figure your maximum deduction for any tax year, subtract from $100,000 the total you (or any related person or predecessor) claimed for clean-fuel vehicle refueling property placed in service at that location for all earlier years."

    The deduction is up to 100% of the price of the refueling property, i.e. $3600+tax in the case of the Phill unit.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    Thanks for the response nostrom(). I appreciate the clarification on the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. We need to be careful which term we use.

    I still am uncertain regarding whether this deduction can be claimed for a PHILL that is placed into service this year. Using the web page that I cited earlier, the part that you quoted is about a third of the way down the page under the title, "Deduction for Clean-Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property". However, near the top of the page under the title "What's New", it reads, "Clean-fuel vehicle and refueling property deduction. The clean-fuel vehicle and refueling property deduction will expire for vehicles placed in service after December 31, 2005." It goes on to talk about the new "Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit", but as far as I've found, that only applies to vehicles and not to fueling devices.

    Am I reading this wrong, or is there something somewhere that I've missed?
  • ngv123ngv123 Member Posts: 18
    I can understand why there are many confusions and unanswered questions regarding the tax credit on both Civic GX and Phill. I am hoping the information below will clarify some of your concerns.

    Federal tax credit towards the installation of alternative fueling stations. A tax credit of up to 50% or $1000 to be applied to taxes imposed for the installation year (valid from December 31st, 2004)
    http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch12.html

    http://www.myphill.com/incentives.htm

    The state of California has enacted a $4,000 tax credit for new natural gas vehicles (NGVs) purchased after January 1, 2006. Consumers will need to fill out IRS Form 8910 Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit. For more information please refer to IRS Website www.irs.org

    I hope this helps. :)
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    Thanks for the response ngv123, but I'm still uncertain. I know that the part you wrote, "Federal tax credit towards the installation of alternative fueling stations. A tax credit of up to 50% or $1000 to be applied to taxes imposed for the installation year (valid from December 31st, 2004)
    http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch12.html " is a direct quote from the PHILL website.

    However, the link that they give is the one I've been using. The link (an IRS webpage) talks about a federal tax deduction (not a tax credit) for refueling property. The formula is not 50% or $1000, and the part that is most disconcerting is near the top of the page under the title "What's New". It reads, "Clean-fuel vehicle and refueling property deduction. The clean-fuel vehicle and refueling property deduction will expire for vehicles placed in service after December 31, 2005." It goes on to talk about the new "Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit", but as far as I've found, that only applies to vehicles and not to fueling devices.

    As I read it, this says that the deductions have expired and that I cannot get a deduction for placing a PHILL in service this year.

    Am I reading this wrong, or is there something somewhere that I've missed?
  • ngv123ngv123 Member Posts: 18
    I am 100% certain it is a $1,000 Tax Credit but it looks like IRS never updated their website which is unfortunate.

    You can also contact FuleMaker directly to confirm that this is a credit as well.

    1-866-MY PHILL (697-4455)
  • airmarairmar Member Posts: 10
    I am getting a major run-around with a Phill installation.

    The unit was delivered to the installer over two months ago.
    I finally worked my way up to the top of the "list". The installer said the permits were filed with the city (in Orange Co. CA.) Then weeks later still nothing. After I called the installer he told me that he was just waiting for the Orange County Fire Authority approval. I waited and waited, still nothing so I called the OCFA. Nothing was ever filed with OCFA. Recalled the installer and was told Phill was dealing with the OCFA. I called Phill and found out that OCFA wants to charge 980.00 for approval inspection.
    It took MY inquires to find this out, nobody told me anything except to wait. Pissed off to say the least.

    My question to all who've had a Phill installed, especially in Orange County, CA. Has anyone had to pay fire department fees before this?

    Still waiting, and waiting, while my unit sits on someone's floor.
  • jetboatjohnnyjetboatjohnny Member Posts: 104
    That really blows.
    When I first got my GX the first thing I was going do do was get a Phill installed. After all the research I have done, I have still not decided.
    I am not sure if all the expense will pay off for me.
    Even if I lease the unit, and the fuel cost comes out to around a dollar, it will cost me 39$ (lease) to save about 80$ in fuel bills.
    My main gas line and meter is in the perfect location for an easy installation, right next to my garage wall.
    Who knows the hassle of installation in Riverside county CA? They probably want to get a piece of the money too.
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    I don't know if it makes you feel any better but I went through similar unexpected delays in getting my Phill installed in Orange County, CA. last year. Go back to message #266 in this forum to see what my delays where. :mad:

    The OCFA thing sounds like a Nightmare!
    We didn't have to do that last year.

    FUELMAKER will do EVERYTHING they can for you.
    I'll email you some suggestions.
    Please keep us advised.
    Once you get PHILL working,
    it makes driving the GX $O NICE!
  • fbaldwinfbaldwin Member Posts: 34
    My unit is installed in the City of Los Angeles. Only required a permit for the electrical outlet, and gas line. The Dept of Building and Safety Inspector had already been trained by Fuelmaker. The unit was installed according to the Phill installation manual and approved by the inspector. I think the permits were less than $100.00.

    The inspector required documentation of the installer training and plumbing license.

    Is Orange in the South Coast Air Quality Management District? They were very helpful when I needed assistance obtaining Gas Company approval.
  • airmarairmar Member Posts: 10
    The Orange Co Fire Authority is really trying to get money. The installer said some other cities either don't require OCFA to sign off or the cities have their own FD. But when it's the OCFA, they want their money.
    I called the Alt. Fuels Liason at Honda Corp. in Torrance and was told that they are working on getting the fees waived. But, it seemed like they were just "waiting" for a call back. I was told that I could pay the fee or wait "awhile". No time frame, just wait awhile.
    So...if you are thinking about an install that is in OCFA territory, be ready to pay up. When I get the actual amount i'll post it, I've been told anywhere from 700-900 dollars.
    Even after I pay, I think the OCFA says it will take over 10 days to approve the plans.
  • fbaldwinfbaldwin Member Posts: 34
    Is there a tax deduction for the cost of installing a Phill unit in tax year 2005. Phill was included with my 2005 GX purchased in october 2005 but I had some installation cost.
  • airmarairmar Member Posts: 10
    I got tired of waiting for Honda to try and work with the Orange County Fire Authority. I went ahead and paid the 615.00 for their "plan inspection" fee.
    Anybody else consideration an installation in the OCFA's jurisdiction be prepared to pay.
  • thatdeonguythatdeonguy Member Posts: 52
    Hey Airmar:
    Please let us know what you get for your $615.00.
    I wonder if they even send somebody to look at your installation. You'll be PHILL'in soon. GOOD LUCK!
  • bank1avpbank1avp Member Posts: 78
    Let me know how you like your PHILL. I was very disatisfied with mine. But then again I have two cars burning CNG and drive a combined 200 miles per day. Poor little PHILL just couldn't keep up. Now my FM2 I am very happy with.

    Happy Philling :0)

    Murphy
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    I bought a new 2006 Honda Civic GX about a month ago, and I got the special deal the Clean Energy was offering of $1.899 per gge for 18 months at any Clean Energy station (and now days, Clean Energy operates most of the stations in my area). I figured this gave me 18 months to get my Phill issues worked out.

    I also live in the area serviced by Orange County Fire Authority (OCFA). I contacted them and was told that the cost of the plan check was $615.00, which is consistent with the amount that airmar paid.

    Checking the OCFA web site, I see that the next meeting of their Executive Committee is Thursday, October 26 at 6:00 P.M. in Irvine. They allow a time for public input on items that are not on the agenda, but of course they will take no action on such an item at that meeting. I was thinking of attending the meeting and giving my input requesting that the OCFA consider waiving their fee for their plan check of a Phill installation. Anyone want to join me at the meeting? The more people we have making a fuss about this, the more likely they are to pay attention to it.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    When I posted message 675, I couldn't find the tax information on refueling property (that's what the IRS called devices like Phill) installed on or after Jan 01, 2006. Since then, I have learned that there is a $1000 tax credit for installing refueling property on or after Jan 01, 2006. Go to http://www.irs.gov and download the form and instructions for form number 8911.

    For refueling property that was installed on or before December 31, 2005, go to http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch12.html
    This is a tax deduction, not a tax credit. My advise to fbaldwin is to consult your tax advisor to see if this applies to your situation, since you only paid for the installation and not the refueling property. Also, someone told me that this deduction was for businesses, not individuals. I don't know if that is true or not. At least this gives you a place to start looking. Good luck.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    According to the information at
    http://www.aqmd.gov/news1/2005/phillhomerefuelingunitpr.html
    the MSRC/AQMD incentive of $2000 for getting a Phill was authorized for 100 units to be sold by Fuelmaker and 300 units to be leased through American Honda. The 100 incentives for units sold by Fuelmaker have been exhausted. Does anyone know how many incentives are left for units that are leased through American Honda? I don't want to miss the $2000 incentive from MSRC/AQMD while we're fiddling around trying to get Orange County Fire Authority to waive their $615 plan check.
  • musicmannmusicmann Member Posts: 29
    airmar, I contacted Honda on Tuesday of last week about the Orange County Fire Authority plan inspection fee. I received a return call from them on Thursday of last week form a very nice gentleman who didn't seem to know very much about the whole issue. He listened to my concerns and said he would attempt to follow up. Apparently the alternative fuel liaison at Honda is on vacation this week, but that person's supervisor called me today. He said that Honda had talked with OCFA and attempted to explain the benefits of Phill, etc. He said that OCFA has agreed to reduce the plan inspection fee to $500.00, effective immediately. He was not able to tell me who at OCFA had authorized that price. Furthermore, he told me that he feels that Honda has now done about all that they can regarding this fee. I thanked him for what they have done and for his telephone call to let me know about it. I hope that you will at least be able to get your fee reduced to $500. Also, I hope that there is not something hidden like a $500 plan inspection fee plus a $125 installation inspection fee, which brings the total to what you paid anyway. Let us know what happens.

    I still plan on attending the Executive Committee meeting of the Orange County Fire Authority on Thursday evening this week at 6:00 P.M. in Irvine to give a public comment thanking OCFA for reducing the fee, and suggesting they seek ways to waive the fee entirely. Anyone else want to join me at the meeting?
  • airmarairmar Member Posts: 10
    Sounds like your are really involved. It was a lady at Honda that I spoke to, the liason person. It sounded like it was a low priority issue with her. I basically go tired of waiting. I paid for the unit in June, while I could still get the 2000 off. It has been sitting in the garage of the installer since then.
    The installer delivered the plans to OCFA and called me from the office. They wouldn't even accept the plans without the money. I had to give them my credit card over the phone. I remember them saying that it was two charges that totaled up to 615. Sorry but I can't remember the split. I just wanted to "gett'r done".
This discussion has been closed.