Have You Ever Heard of a _________?!!

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, the Sabre was actually a UK Reliant redesigned as a typical Ford-based special (1703cc Ford Consul engine and 4-speed ZF trans). The idea was to sell the car in the USA in the early 1960s as a sports car, but since the cheaper TRs and MGs could easily outperform it, and since there was no competent organization to distribute it (much less sort out its mechanical ills), the whole thing was more or less a calamity from the word go. It was also rather unattractive.

Here's a website if you are interested:

http://www.scimweb.com/vin/sabre4.html

Shifty

andy_jordan

I never would have guessed that the company that inflicted the Robin on the world would have developed that. Now that you have provided the connection I can see Scimitar like elements.

Incidentally, when I was growing up in England I actually remember a memorable day out when 7 of us went out for the day in a Robin. My parents and another family with two kids went in their Robin. The largest kid - 9 or so I guess - sat in the middle of the back seat and the two younger ones - me 7, him 6 sat in the hatchback bit with our feet next to the other person's head.

Thank goodness for progress!!

kdotson

I have a 1989 Shelby CSX with over 100,000 miles on it. It needs some strut work, a new starter and the main turbo intake tube replaced. The car is complete and when it's running, it goes like stink. I don't know what it's worth and am trying to decide whether to invest in it or sell it. Where should I offer it for sale?
kdotson

Mr_Shiftright

Tis must be a Lancer or Dodge Shelby, right?

Well, it would only be "worth it" to you, but no, there is little potential for collector car value. Even all fixed up and beautiful, it's maybe a $3,500 car, so you'll have to decide how much you like it and how much you want to invest in it for the fun factor.

lokki

Minding my own business, driving to work as usual, when I was passed by a lady driving a Humber "supersnipe"(?). Four headlights, early 60's English copy of a US car look. Super condition, as good as any car on the street. Left hand drive too.

I swear I wasn't drinking... I guess I've heard of a Humber Supersnipe before, but I'd always thought of it as a name I'd use in a joke about English cars.

speedshift

There's a Nigel Shiftright cartoon strip in that scenario.

Mr_Shiftright

A forgettable car, but a great name. Nigel's favorite is actually another real car, the Wollsely Moth.

dalelynn

My mother has a 1954 KR-175 Kabinroller Messerschmidt sitting in her garage that she and my father brought over from Germany in 1954. It's up on blocks and we think in pretty good condition though we haven't run it in over 20 years now. We know it needs brake cables and probably would need some engine work. Can anyone tell me if there is a Messeschmidt club out there or even where parts can be had?

Mr_Shiftright

Here's a list of Minis and Micros--clubs, magazines, etc.

http://www.cotc.com/members/search/links/minismicros.html


That's a fairly valuable car these days if it is complete and running.

speedshift

Saw a car today that Nigel would drive if he drove Datsuns. It's a Datsun 1000, and it's so ugly--pardon, distinctive--that at first I thought it was British. I think it's trying very hard to look British, or perhaps it is British and built under license. Judging by the license plate it was first registered in the mid-1960s. Complete, unrestored and with two windows down to let in plenty of California climate.

andy_jordan

Had to do a double take on the 401 last night. I got overtaken by a Citroen!!! (I was driving a Jaguar XJ-S) Not truly accurate for this topic because I know what it was - but most people may not be familiar, and I certainly didn't know that there were any in North America.

It was a Citroen 250 (I think there may also be a letter in the name - Shifty can you clarify?) - think of a 2CV front end with a small panel van rear end.

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm...might have been a "truckette". Some people do hot-rod them...I can't imagine a stock 2CV platform overtaking a bicycle much less a Jaguar.

speedshift

Seriously, what the heck is a Datsun 1000? Has anyone heard of it? Should it be deported?

Mr_Shiftright

The Datsun 1000 is more commonly known as the PL210, a 4-door sedan made in the late 50s and sent to the US in very small numbers. With only 988cc engine and about 37 horsepower, it really wasn't suitable for the US market; however, it was a tough little car and foreshadowed what would come later. The first "real" Datsun was the 510, a great little car that is still raced successfully in SCCA sedan classes.

Nigel would never drive such a humorless, homely little thing. Nigel is into "sport" and open cars.

spokane

Rare indeed, Andy. Surely ....you realize what this says about your Jaguar.

16valver

i like subaru 360s.... do y'all know what those are???

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, those are little Subaru mini-cars...Subaru's first effort in the US.

andy_jordan

It says the Jaguar's driver knows the speed limit!!

Course my memory is short when the road is quieter :-)

johnbono

The car was actually called the Airphibian(not Amphibian) It looked like the passenger compartment of an airplane but with four wheels for landing gear. I saw it once out on the road here in Danbury, CT(where the initial prototype I believe was built). When it is on the road, the propeller, wings and tail are removed, and it was driven via the wheels. Pretty neat to look at.

andy_jordan

of a car I saw a couple of times when I was a little lad groing up in England. It was a car that looked like a speedboat - I have no idea whether it was a bodykit, a converted boat, or something else - I just know it looked cool to a 7 year old.

Mr_Shiftright

Might have been an Amphicar...one actually crossed the Channel so perhaps that was tje pne. Like the car/plane, it was neither a good car nor a good boat. But they are fun to watch and they are collectible.

andy_jordan

I sawe it when on summer vacation in a couple of different years in a town called Broadstairs which is right on the channel coast. Had a Starsky and Hutch colour (color) scheme as I recall

dgraves1

But the Amphicar didn't look like a "speedboat". I didn't think it looked much like a boat at all. Just a really ugly car. Somewhat like a Nash Metropolitan.

andy_jordan

Childhood memories can confuse, but this was definitely a speedboat - pointy nose and all. Thinking about it, I am not even sure whether it had four wheels, it may have been a trike - it's just too long ago to recall clearly.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, the Amphicar certainly quaifies as ugly enough.

paulnorton

The car in question is a one-off conversion of a genuine speedboat on a Reliant 3-wheeler chassis and is currently for sale in the UK.

andy_jordan

but for one word - Reliant!!!

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, be afraid...be very afraid....

dgraves1

Actually, "one-off", "conversion", "Reliant", and "three-wheeler" all scare me.

yatesr

Looking for information for a '69 Pontiac 2 door
hardtop, VIN 276579P116313. My understanding it
is one of about 600 manufactured in '69. Do you
have any more details on this vehicle?

chris396

Check out the Pontiac Historical Society. Pontiac sold the records to them. They have a web site (I don't remember the address). It costs about $35 for you to send your VIN # and they will send you a build sheet telling you exactly what options your car came with. If only every make had this service.

speedshift

I remember how great it was to hear from Pontiac that I had a real Judge. Even back in the early '80s people were faking them, and mine was a little questionable: whoever heard of a Judge with a column-shift automatic? The fact that it banged off shifts like a heavy duty Turbo 400 was encouraging, but it was a big relief to know mine was real. After all, I'd paid $1600 for it.

mlevan

It's A Humber - A very Dowdy British car never imported in significant numbers. In the UK it's sort of a "Doctors car" as the Olds is here.

Martin LeVan
Certified Auto Appraisal
www.carvalue.net

speedshift

Saw a Rover 2000 TC today, a very attractive car in dark red with what seems to be a lot of Olde English character. Have heard vaguely that these cars have "quirks". Any comments? Wasn't there a V8 version?

mac24

Interesting car. I've owned a couple, but I'm no
expert on them. However, I'll venture a few
memories.

The car was built around a rigid passenger
compartment, which was always finished in satin
black. The body panels, fully painted in the
finished color, were then bolted on. From memory,
the roof and doors were steel while the hood and
trunk were aluminum. The interior was always
leather.

The car first appeared as a Rover 2000 around
1965. As well as having a novel body construction
for the time, it was also unusual in that the front
suspension was by means of a bell crank with
horizontal springs and shocks. The rear axle was a
De Dion tube. It actually handled very well. The
TC version became available shortly afterwards, TC
standing for twin carburetor. I think that both
versions had SU's for the home market and
Strombergs for export.

The 3500 V8 come out around 1968, and a version of
that engine is still found in the Range Rover
today. It gave the car exceptional performance for
the time, and was greatly favored by many police
forces of the day.

The overall image of the car was one of stylish
luxury, combined with performance.

speedshift

Thanks. You've got me interested. This car is very straight and the paint and chrome are in surprisingly good condition, like it's been garaged. Interior shows enough wear that I doubt it's an extremely low mileage car, but someone has treated it pretty well all these years, which bodes well. Assuming it ran well enough to drive on a daily basis, what would a ballpark value be? I looked in the Auto Trader and they list Simca(?) but not Rover cars, which doesn't bode well. Any idea what the parts situation is? Would reliability be on a par with an MGB?

gkelly3

I had a 2000TC (equipped with twin SU carbs). You are right, for its time, it was a marvel of design. I don't think CAD systems were around when this car was designed, and dues to the great rigidity of the body, it was remarkably free of rattles and squeeks. The real weak point of these cars was the engine and electrical systems (Lucas again).The engine was not a bad design, ut the british prediliction for using old gasket materials (cork, natural rubber), made for lots of expensive-to-fix leaks!

mac24

I can't help with a valuation I'm afraid, although I'm sure that there are others here who can.

Rover had no association with Simca, a French manufacturer, and owned Land Rover at the time. It came under the British Leyland Group (which variously became BL, Leyland, BMC, BLMC, Rover, and probably a few more!), which contained Austin, Morris, Wolsey, Jaguar, Vanden Plas, Daimler, Land Rover, Rover, Riley, etc. etc.

Rover had a good reputation for quality and probably had better engineering than MG. However, like the MGB, the electrics are Lucas. Not complicated to fix though. The most troublesome point of regular maintenance was the inboard rear disc brakes. They were (a): inaccessible, (b): tricky to replace the pads on, as the piston had to be wound back into the caliper with a special tool, and (c): had separate handbrake pads which were mechanically operated and often seized.

Looking at my last post, the final paragraph should read:

"The overall image of the car was one of stylish
luxury, and the 3500 V8 combined this with performance."

The 2000 gave adequate performance, the 2000TC provided a little more, but the 3500 V8 was in a different league altogether.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd say a value of around $3,500 for a pretty nice car. They have a bit of a "cult" following and I've seen higher asking prices, but I can't say i've ever seen one sell at those prices. Perhaps they do to real aficiendos.

The big advantage of an MGB over the Rover is that the MGB parts supply is limitless and reasonable priced. Rover parts would be difficult, especially some of the weird small bits, and body parts really tough to track down. For an MGB you can buy any part, any time, any year.

The TC was a rarity in its day...a sporty 4-door sedan, like the BMW 2002...by modern standards it doesn't appear so exceptional anymore.

speedshift

Obviously the car is rewarding to own and drive, judging by the responses. I'm thinking the Rover is sort of a cross between the two English cars I've owned, a '65 MGB and '66 Jaguar Mark X. The B was lots of fun but didn't like the freeway (no OD) while the Mark X was a very nice English Buick. Ten years ago I would have pursued the Rover just for the experience, but now my income depends on being able to drive clients around. Both the B and Mark X were reliable with a little maintenance, but I can't afford to have the car down while I wait for parts from the UK.

This is a subjective question, but what would any of you recommend in a two or three-year-old sport sedan between $20-25k that drives like a grown-up B? I've been over in the sedans section and learned quite a bit, but I'm not sure those guys are on the same page I am. I really don't care about cupholders.

By the way, didn't mean to imply that Rover and Simca were related. It just blew my mind that Simca was on the list and Rover wasn't. I think even Vauxhall is listed.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, no, I would never rely on a Rover 2000TC as a business car....oh, nononono....I thought this was a HOBBY...as an everyday car for dependability, I think it would vex you, as the Brits like to say.

speedshift

Well okay, but unfortunately, my hobby car has to be my driver. C'mon, Shiftright, if you had to drive a late-model four door, what would it be? My lease is up in a few months, and it sure won't be another GTP. Something with a little more balance and a lot more personality.

Mr_Shiftright

A late model 4-door....I....I....CAN'T...imagine me in one....don't do this to me!

Okay, okay....a BMW 528, or if that's out of your price range (mine too at the moment), then say a 97-98 Audi A4 would be okay, or maybe even a Jetta V-6!

speedshift

Don't you feel better now ;-)? Really, I appreciate the input. Yeah, the 528 is a little pricey. The A4 1.8T and Jetta are at the top of my short list, but I'm not sure the current A4 will be in production by next spring. The Jetta's two-year warranty has me worried, given its chequered past, but the GLX offers torque, leather and wood on a budget, so that may well be the way I go. Thanks again.

Mr_Shiftright

I believe the Jetta has a ten year power train warranty however.

speedshift

Yes, thanks, you're right, I checked the sales brochure. At least the big stuff is covered, not the little stuff that breaks off in your hand. Would really like the up-level interior with the 1.8T--better balance, more sporting--but the concept is apparently too close to the A4 for VW's comfort.

Had the "Euro-based" Mystique and it was pure Sominex. "What BMW would build if it built front-drive cars," according to Automobile. I think not. More like, "What a stodgy Detroit car maker would build if it reluctantly offered a smaller car". Strained through the same filter as the Catera. I'm ready for pure, undiluted Euro.

lokki

SAABs are almost as quirky as English cars and a lot of fun to drive - very involving for the driver. Plenty of room and comfort for the passengers ... Reliability is just as quirky as the rest of the car's features from what I understand, but some say that's changing.

A lease return should put it nicely in your price range....although the recommended extended warranty might boost the price a bit.

speedshift

Yes, thanks, I've thought seriously about the Saab too, both the 9-3 and 9-5. I've looked at both forums in the sedans section and my take is that the 9-3 has great engines but lots of torque steer and rattles and not enough front suspension travel. The 9-5 is very attractive and offers lots of features, but the base model I'd lease has lots of turbo lag. Rubbery shifters all around, automatic more enjoyable. Reliability is improving but resale value is still poor. Market is reluctant to pay list so there are excellent subsidized leases to move product. I'm tempted but wary--lots of red flags.

lokki

Can anybody tell me anything about Marmons? My grandfather owned one back in the 30's although I don't know what year it was. Apparently it was quite a car from the storys I used to hear as a kid. Aluminum body, V-16 engine, crystal vases or so the stories went. Very silent running....my grandfather used to like to sneak up behind people and blow the horn (so I guess there is something to genetics) and apparently it was so powerful my grandmother drove it 20 miles home one time with the parking brakes on and never noticed. No idiot lights in those days, and I guess no outside mirror to notice all the smoke.

Anyhow.. all these are just stories - I haven't been able to find anything about the car, so I don't know if all this is true or not...

Any of you oldtimers remember them?

dranoel

Marmon was built from 1902-1933. If grandpa's Marmon was a 1932, the specs are as follows: Length 210",width 72", height 68",wheelbase 145", weight 5300#.transmission 3 speed, The V-16 had a displacement of 490.9 cu. in.,200HP@3400RPM,torque 390 ft. lbs.@1800RPM,compression ratio 6.0-1. Performance is as follows: 0-60 MPH 14.0 secs., 1/4 mile 18.8 secs., top speed 105 MPH