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Classic Cars as daily drivers

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Comments

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Talk about a BUTT UGLY car!

    How about a Roadmaster with the wood panels?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I believe all Roadmaster Estates came with wood panels.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,920
    ...it's only the butt that's ugly on that butt ugly car ;-)

    I was in downtown DC yesterday, and while stopped at a traffic light, noticed one of those little "buy here/pay here" lots off to the left. Being it was in downtown DC, it was surrounded by a tall chain link fence with razor wire across the top. Anyway, inside, there were a couple of Crown Vics, a couple of the whale-bodied Caprices, one of the final Olds Custom Cruiser wagons (I think they only made these from '91-92), and a big whale-bodied Fleetwood.

    I have a feeling that this sales lot's biggest customers are cabbies.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    If you're still around, I have to ask you this: Were Plymouth Road Runners in 1973 still available with the 440 Magnum engine? My best friend's dad just purchased one last night; it is in really mint condition, original paint, 60k original miles. My friend's dad (let's call him Rick) is a true Mopar enthusiast, just like you are, only he buys and sells cars. He keeps them for a very short time, then he turns them over for a profit.

    Cars Rick has had over the past decade or so: '70 Challenger T/A with 340 Six Pack, '70 'Cuda 440 Six Barrel, '71 Duster 340, '73 Challenger with 340 (sold last week), '70 Dart Swinger with 340, '72 Valiant Scamp with 318, and perhaps his finest car: '69 GTX convertible with 440 and heavy-duty 906 TorqueFlite. Andre, you'd really like this one. According to him, it's only one out of 700 GTX ragtops produced in '69, and only one of the very few original survivors.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    The build sticker on that '73 Road Runner says it was built in Canada. I didn't know that Chrysler Corporation had an assembly plant in Canada during the early 1970s.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, you could get a 440 - 280HP in 1973 in a Road Runner, which made it a GTX, but don't confuse it with the really powerful 375 or 390 HP 440 engines of years earlier. There's not much "magnum" about it in 1973 and you could only get it with an automatic transmission. The end was near. Still, a 440 GTX is pretty rare in 1973, but not worth all that much compared to the earlier cars. The '69 should bring three times the price of the '73.

    Yep, only 625 GTX ragtops made in 1969. The really rare GTX convertible for that year is the Hemi, of which there were only 11 and those are worth big bucks.

    Sources are Dodge & Plymouth Muscle Car Red Book and The Sports Car Market Price Guide.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,920
    ...any idea on what 375-390 hp would convert to in net hp?

    Jrosa, as for Canadian production, yeah, there was a plant in Windsor, Ontario back then. If you look at the 7th digit of the VIN #, if it's "R", it was built there (at least in '68-74, which is the what the website I found covers). I think a lot of Darts, Valiants, Demons, and Dusters were built in Canada back then.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Didn't know quite where to post this question, so thought I'd try here.
    I used to hear that you could write to Pontiac somehow, give them the ID numbers for your vehicle, and they could send you a reprint of the original window sticker and/or invoice, listing all the options and original prices of your vehicle. Does anyone know if this service was ever offered by Chevrolet, and if so, does it still exist? I was wondering if there was a way I could get the original invoice for my 62 Impala SS. Anyone out there have any info I'd sure appreciate it.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I did that when I had a Judge back in the early '80s but someone (I think it was here) said Pontiac doesn't do that anymore. Don't know about Chevy.
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    Cant speak for the other badges...but Pontiac documentation for 1999 and older cars comes from Pontiac Historic Services, which is independent from GM. A VIN and $35 gets you copies of all records, official photo, specs sheet, press releases that Pontiac has available for your car. Amount of info varies depending upon year and model. An extra $20 gets you the window sticker reprint. I used the service for my 71 firebird, and the info they sent me complimented the original paperwork I already had very nicely.
  • mhansen1mhansen1 Member Posts: 14
    ... could you please post the information on how to get hold of the Pontiac Historical Services? They may have information on how to get similar information for other GM makes .... specifically Chevrolet. I have a '68 Camaro in which I would like to get the original window sticker if possible. Thanks!
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I am about to purchase my best friend's 1992 Chevrolet and I would be interested in finding out the information on it, or if you have the website of the Historical Services. Thank you.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,546
    I'm also interested in andre's question (post 358) about converting gross hp to net. I know there is no perfect conversion factor, but I used to use 0.85 as a rule of thumb, which would convert andre's 375-390 to about 320-330. Would that be close?

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,920
    was 75% (probably too low), but I picked it, because one of the few engines that went unchanged in the gross-to-net transition was the Mopar 225 slant six. Most of the others had a compression cut or something else happen to them in the transition, so they had a real as well as "paper" loss. The 225 had 145 hp gross in '71 and 110 net in '72, although it went down after that.

    So I would've been even harsher, and converted that 375-390 to about 281-292! I'm sure they had to be more potent than that though!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    i couldn't find a reliable formula that made any sense other than guesswork, sorry, so I didn't post it. If you want my opinion, I think the old HP ratings lied like crazy, given that very ordinary cars today can whump many legendary muscle cars of old. Also, the old cars used some outrageous differential ratios for bottom end speed, since it is characteristic that these 350HP cars often topped out under 115 mph.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    for those of you that are interested in getting an original window sticker for your car like I am: I did a search on my PC for Pontiac Historic Services, and came up with that service and a bunch of interesting links, PLUS- a website called Triple A Enterprises, which claims it has been reproducing window stickers since 1979 for GM, Ford, and some Mopars. Great. I ordered one for my 62 Impala-for $22. Sorry I can't post the address, but just search like I did, and you'll get it. Great to know it's there!
  • blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    Like carnut said, just do a search for pontiac historic services.
  • mhansen1mhansen1 Member Posts: 14
    ... did this Triple A enterprises actually reproduce a sticker for you based on data they have on the car or did you just go ahead and submit the data you wanted reflected on the sticker? I am interested to find the options etc. actually on my Camaro when purchased in 1968. I obviously do not have a window sticker or build sheet.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    I just submitted the form last night, and as you'll see if you check out the sight, theyll give you a window sticker based on invoice, build sheet if you have it-otherwise, they ask you to fill out an application, that asks for VIN number, year, make, model, color, paint and trim codes [on the car ID plate] and anything else you know about the car. We'll see what I get. The more original info you have on the car to submit, the better.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Got my window sticker for my 62 Impala SS in the mail yesterday from Triple A Enterprises. It appears to be an exact repro of the original-the VIN number even has the last 6 digits rubber stamped, like the original. Lists all the options, codes, prices, etc. Also the point of assembly [Atlanta, Georgia], and the name and place of the dealer. All this, in a week, for $22! I submitted only the VIN number, and the options I knew it had. I was pleased, and impressed. Their address is: Triple A Window Stickers

        PO Box 50522

        Indianapolis, IN 46250

        website: http://www.window-sticker.com


    They say they can reproduce window stickers for other 59 and later GM, Mopar, and some Ford.

    Anyway, they said "tell your friends if you're satisfied"- so, thought I'd share here.

    BTW, the bottom line price for my 62, including destination charge, was $3433.35, in 1962. Interesting.

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Was '59 when they started using window stickers?
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    What options did your car have from the factory?
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Yes, '59 was the first year they used window stickers-and that was the result of some federal law. Before that, you never really knew what the car was supposed to cost. There was no Edmunds or anything like that, so dealers got away with murder, and charged whatever they thought they could get away with. It's definitely better now.
    Ghulet-my 62 was relatively bare for an Impala SS. Base price was $2776 for the Impala 8 2dr spt coupe-250HP327 was 83.95, Powerglide was 199.10, Pushbutton radio 56.50, tinted glass 37.70, 2sp electric wiper/washer 17.25, WSW tires 31.55, supersport package 156.05, and that was it. No power steering or brakes, no air.
    As a footnote, I remember when my Dad bought a nearly identical 62 SS back in July of 62. We went for a test drive, and my Dad remarked that it felt like power steering. The salesman said no it wasn't, because the sticker didn't list it. Turned out the car DID have power steering, but somehow, the sticker didn't have it listed-so, we got it free [after some bargaining, of course]. Go figure on that one.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Found a photo of my date (now my wife)and I in front of her parent's house, getting into my '62 Impala SS, heading to her prom.

    It was 1968. The Chevy was white with a blue interior. It had the 300 HP 327 with Powerglide. It also had power windows and power steering but I don't think it had power brakes but it did have factory air conditioning which was a pretty rare option at the time.

    What a pretty car it was. Of all the many cars I've owned I think this is the one I miss the most.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Yesterday I spent quite a bit of time cruising around my 62 with my girlfriend. That SS interior [mine's Turquoise exterior and interior] is so sexy, the new car smell so infecting, and the car is so smooth and sweet overall! I'd forgotten how smooth the ride was. And even though mine's just a 250HP, it gets up and moves pretty good! The Powerglide has a pretty tight feel and works pretty good overall. Heck, I'm not expecting muscle car performance. This is just such a sweet ride. It now has 42,964 miles on it. Of all the cars I've owned, there's something about this one that really rings the nostalgia bell. Hey, you know-why not look for one yourself? They're not THAT expensive for a nice one. And the value keeps going up.
    Anyway, enjoy this good NW weather while we can!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I had the stock exhaust system replaced with a better set of duals. I think I went with 18" glasspacks that sounded soooooo mellow.

    When are you heading up north a bit?
  • mhansen1mhansen1 Member Posts: 14
    ... glad to hear that you are satisfied with the window sticker you got through Triple A Enterprises. I have seen their work and I have yet to hear a bad thing about the service. Definitely plan to get one for my Camaro!! Problems I am facing is that before I order one I want to make sure that the information is true and genuine ... the real thing!!! My '68 Camaro is fully restored and has an abundance of rare options and I want to make sure the car came equipped like that from the factory but I unfortunately do not have a build sheet or original window sticker. I also would like the sticker to have the actual purchase dealer on it. I am working on a previous owner trace but that is turning out tougher than I thought it would. Can anyone lend any suggestions of steps I can take to try and find either orignal documentation or some sort of trail so I can ensure my car is genuine??? If I continue to stumble into brick walls ... I will then submit and get one with the information I know yet still would like to ensure its all real. Any help would be great!
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    I know at least in some state, you can trace records quite a ways back. Sometimes you can even find this stuff on the internet using various search engines.
  • mhansen1mhansen1 Member Posts: 14
    ... yes, I already went that route and actually was able to receive the title history for the car dating back to 1984. What is tough as far as the earliest title name is that the owner in the '80's was a woman so name change etc. complicates tracing her back. I was just wondering if there was another avenue to explore, web site to check, maybe even an organization which assists with this type of research. Still trying to track down the owners from the title search; just not having good luck.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Why don't you just try submitting your VIN number and 22 bucks to triple A and see what you get? That's all I did-I didn't have anything else-just some of the options I knew it had [few] and they even had the original sale dealer and assembly plant. It would be interesting to see what you get on your Camaro with so many options. Who knows-they might even have everything you want. Anyway, keep us posted.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I know you've owned and driven many cars in your lifetime, most of them European-made sports models. But if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you: How come you feel uncomfortable driving big American barges from the '70s/'80s, such as Chevy Caprices and Ford LTDs? Is it because they suck at everything, or they're not built like the tanks that they're supposed to be?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, they are no better or worse than most mass produced cars of the mid 70s through the 80s.. I just don't find them the least bit interesting, coming from my personal point of view and with the experience I have with cars of all types. An exception would be a few very early 70s American cars, a couple of which I do find interesting. There are also quite a few imports from this time period I also have no interest in whatsoever.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Like the '70s Toyotas, Hondas, and other Japanese, right?
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    Speaking of large American cars, I remember you mentioned you wouldn't mind having a 55 Buick Roadmaster convertible. I know you don't much care for Cadillacs, though. Here's a question for you [not intended to induce nightmares]. Suppose you HAD to choose one of these for a daily driver, and there were no other choices [someone offered them to you free]-what would it be-a 75 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible, or a 59 Cad Deville? Now if you couldn't stand to be seen in either car, you could have a 60-65 Citreon 2CV. Which would it be?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Just kill me instead. Carnut, how have I failed you that you'd give me such choices?

    I think it was a '55 Century convertible (whichever was the fastest one). Has to be white with red interior however.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    I kinda thought that's what you'd say. Three horrible choices. As for Buick convertibles, It seems like the ones that caught my eye over the years were all white with red leather interior. A friend bought a 61 Electra convertible, red/white, back in the 60s when they were cheap, after owning a Corvette. He took the Buick only because it was cheap, and original, offered by a neighbor at a price he couldn't refuse-just "tempory transportation". After driving it for awhile, he kinda liked it-luxury and all. I saw a 57 in those same colors at a Concours a few years ago, and even though I never liked the 57s, someting about it was attractive. Someting about Buick convertibles in those colors. Anyway, yeah a 55 Century convert in those colors would be fun. I think all those Eldos from the 70s have to be the most wasteful, innefficient, bloated barges of all time-even for the 70s. I loathed them when they were new, and have ever since. Your comments about driving one only cemented my impression.
    Enjoy your current rides.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Buick convertibles should be red over red.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    Not a convertible, but near me there's a '63 Wildcat coupe, red on red (with LOTS of chrome, so much that I'm wondering if it's a factory custom or dealer add-on), for sale. Nice car. No Buick rims or anything. I must check further on equipment, engine, etc.
  • rea98drea98d Member Posts: 982
    I don't know about Shifty, but I'd love to have a '59 Deville!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Be careful what you wish for!
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    What's wrong with a '59 Cadillac (other than the ugly tailfins)?
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...'59 Cadillacs are a pain to restore, though parts aren't too hard to obtain (lots of repro and NOS parts). Too much chrome and most examples have lots of electrical 'do-dads' to worry about and fix.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, exactly. Aside from being horrifying ugly, which is a purely subjective problem, the cars are very large and complex and very expensive to repair and/or restore. On top of that, if it's a 4-door or even a 2-door, it is not worth restoring as restoration costs exceed value. If you desire to save a Cadillac, pick a pretty one and a convertible and do it up right.

    Given other choices in 1959, even a Chevy 2 dr hdtp, no beauty itself, would be a much better choice, as they run well, are a big more agile, and far easier and cheaper to restore. Also, with Chevys of that era you can easily upgrade the motor and transmission and actually have a car that's fun to drive (in a straight line, anyway).
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Yes, I've heard that '59 Chevys can run really well if they're up to snuff.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Shifty, it is really true that Harley Earl designed the entire 1959 GM line-up while under the influence of hallucinogens?
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    One of the bartenders at the corner owns a '59 Impala sedan (6-cylinder). Anyone wanting to buy one should be mindful of rust issues (maybe not worse than others, but this particular example is a 'rust bucket'). They are an odd looking car for sure, but quite entertaining seeing one compared to new cars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Cars are like music in that the better ones are more than entertainment, they give you lots of interesting information. I can "read" the information from some 50s cars but all I get from most '59 American cars is chaos, or conflicting information delivered loudly. There is nothing cohesive or rational in their designs. At least when you look at a Ferrari of that time period or an Alfa you get some interesting information. You get "I am fast" or "I have heritage" or "I am Italian".

    With a '59 Caddy, I get "I am from Mars", and "my front end and my read end were not designed by the same people" and "I'm not really a car, I"m a pinball machine".
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Then it's true?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    you mean that it conveys information of a sort, or that you can really play pinball?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    No, that the entire 1959 GM line-up was styled by aliens.
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