Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Think You Might Have Been Cheated? Ask the "Judge" and "Jury" Right Here!
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This car, a CL 2.3, has 15k miles and has been treated very well. They had to replace the CD player and a pwr window motor within weeks of purchase, The clutch 'slave cylinder' had to be replaced at last service also. Could this car have been dropped in transit or something?
I am terribly ignorant about mechanical things and would love some knowledgeable feedback.
TIA
The door to door sales three day "cooling off" period does not apply to cars.
You might take it to an independent repair facility (not the tire manufacturer or Chrysler) and see what they say. They would at least be less inclined to say "it's a tire (or dealer) problem". If they fix it, submit the bill to Chrysler - you just might get a refund.
Believe it or not, road surfaces can affect the way a car feels, be it "pulling" or a "shimmy". My own 300M has experienced a "shimmy" on certain roads, but when driving my wifes car, I notice a shimmy on the same stretch. The car is designed to give you "road feel". It may well be that you are expecting that "living room ride" for 30 grand. I expected a "sporting" experience with the 300M. It hasn't disappointed me.
If they feel a shudder or pull, or think the transmission shifts funny, no one or no repair will convince them otherwise even though it may be a normal function of the car.
In any event, I agree with the poster above. It would probably we wise to dump the car, lick your wounds briefly and move on.
Jim
and some dealers kind of use this to do additional repairs that are not necessary. i know when i need tires for my 98 intrepid - i guarantee i won't replace them with goodyears (probably a set of pirelli's)
The problem began to occur about a month ago. The car was due for routine service and I told the dealer about the problem.The car was returned to me without having the knock fixed.They said they know about the knock but they cant find anything obviously wrong and that the car is operating "within BMW specs". I replied that I find it hard to believe that "the ultimate driving machine's" steering wheel makes a noise everytime I make a right turn.
I asked them to examine the car again.They said a regional examiner had looked at my car and came to the same conclusion they had. This also puts them under of an umbrella of not having to continue working on the car. They politely gave me my car back and said goodbye. Upon leaving I reminded them that 1.My car did NOT always make this noise. 2 The last time it did , it WAS fixed. 3. My loaner car did not make this noise. 4. I know a few people with 323's and their cars dont make this noise. Their answer was " I dont have an answer to that" I also asked them that if it was such a normal problem how come it took several days to diagnose my car? And what exactly makes the sound. I was told it has something to do with the rag joint in the steering column.I have Phoned BMW usa and am awaiting an answer. Any ideas??? thanx.I still have 6k left before my warranty expires and I want this resolved asap.
Anyway, they've got this extended warranty. As soon as they put a few hundred miles on the car, they noticed it was consuming oil. The dealer tells them not to add oil, but to bring it in and let them do it so that they can monitor how much oil is being consumed. Currently it is consuming about a quart every 3000 miles. The dealer is aware of the problem but says they can't fix anything under the warranty until it is consuming 2 quarts per 3000 miles.
There are several problems with this scenario. First of all, the spec page they got with the car did not have oil leak checked off on it, and yet it's been consuming oil since they got it. Secondly, the dealer acknowleges that there is oil consumption, but won't fix it even though they paid for an extended warranty.
I'd really like to help them get this taken care of. My parent-in-laws are not rich, and this was to be their dream car. My father in law is a very old school GM buyer. He started out with Oldmobiles, them moved up to Buicks, and now that he feels he's made it, stepped up to a Cadillac. Given his experience with his last Buick, and currently this Cadillac, he's strongly considering switching to a Lexus or Acura. He's a huge Union guy, and used to swear that he'd never buy anything that wasn't built by a UAW outfit. This should give you an idea of how dissatisfied he it.
What does the Jury say?
Best Regards,
Shipo
That's nothing!
All cars HAVE to use some oil. Many people would be happy to go that far.
If a car does not use some oil you may find premature wear on the valve stems and in the guides. Back in the 1970's I used to overhaul engines while I was in college. It was common to see small block Chevy engines and 351 Ford engines with good bottom ends and totally trashed heads. We would "Knurl" the valve guides which both made the inner diameter of the guide smaller (back to spec) and create a small spiral groove in the guide to allow for a small amount of oil to work into the guide. Oil consumption went up a little (about 1 quart per 2500 miles), but we never saw ANY of those heads again (unless the bottom end of the engine went).
Best Regards,
Shipo
Many of the Cadillac Northstar motors (what is in the 97 Seville) have moderate to excessive oil consumption.
Your in-laws 1 quart per 3,000 miles is minimual.
Postings from one gentleman indicate they got Cadillac to replace a motor, under warranty, when the monitored oil consumption was 1 quart in 700 miles. (I think he actually said it was 2 quarts in 1400 miles.)
I've got a 95 Northstar. It uses oil.
Your in-laws should be happy with what they are getting.
P.S. It's a Cadillac. With a lot of 'stuff' on it. They should expect a lot of maintenance on this car. If they got the Cadillac 'certified' extended used car warranty, it is a 'bumper-to-bumper' warranty which will take care of everything for 6 years and either 60,000 or 72,000 miles. If it's some non-Cadillac warranty, no telling what it will or will not cover.
My guess is that the warranty offered by the dealership is actually owned by the dealership, so all the repairs come out of their pocket. He had to take it in 3 times to have his obviously warped discs replaced.
The dealership says it has to loose 1 quart per 1000 miles for 4000 miles before they will fix it. On serveral occasions when he's taken it in (they make him bring it in every 1000 miles) they have told him it's only down 3/4 of a quart, so the 4000 mile deal starts over. It seems to me they are just trying to stretch this out beyond the warranty.
One of the service guys he was talking to says it's most likely a cracked valve guide. He said he's seen this before on those engines.
I told my father-in-law to call the service manager, and ask for the number of the district Cadillac manager. Car dealers seem really concerned about stories about bad service getting back to the parent companies. Maybe that will set things in motion.
All the cars that I've owned have not consumed oil. Like pjyoung said, you put oil in, when you are ready to take it out, it's all still there. My father-in-law has had a different experience and says he would be happy with a 1 quart loss every 3000 miles.
I thought your dad was complaining because the car was using a quart every 3000 miles. Now you said he would be happy if this was the case?
Maybe I read your post wrong.
Still confuion on the Caddy usage, if consumption is 1 quart/1000 miles I would push for a tear down and find out why?
So like others I am also woundering why ppl say a normal engine burns 1 quart oil every 3000 miles.
Were all my cars except chevy using air instead of oil.
Regards
Naveed
Even the 1 quart per 1,000 miles is getting borderline. Most dealers would try to blow you off about it.
If you get more than this, you've probably got a case to get something done under a warranty claim.
And..once again, to the people who think their car uses NO oil...it does because it has to.
On my own cars, I rarely check the oil level since, they too use a miniscule amount of oil. When I get the oil changed around 3500-4000 miles the level will be slightly below full.
Also, remember, a dipstick isn't a precision measuring device either.
On the Cadillac. You know...oil is cheap. I don't like to have an engine torn down unless necessary. Heck, if these Northstar engines tend to burn a bit of oil anyway, so what?
To me, anyway, adding a quart of oil once every 1000 miles wouldn't be a big deal.
But, that's me.
Anyway, I really don't think 1 quart per 1000 miles is normal. In fact, I think it's excessive. GM advertises how their cars require very little maintenence. Adding a quart of oil 4 times between recommended service intervals is not low mainenance. Now the actual oil consumption itself might not be a big problem, but then again maybe it is. The big guy paid for an extended warranty, so tearing down the engine to find something that isn't normal (harmfull or not) costs him nothing. Considering what he paid for the warranty, I think the dealer should at least find out what is causing this excessive oil consumption and whether it's a serious problem or not.
Were I a dealer, or say a legal arbitrator, I wouldn't do anymore than courteously listen to a complaint of one quart every 3,000 miles. I would not consider this under any circumstances "abnormal" or indicative of a problem.
However, a quart every 1,000 miles is a *possible* concern...I say possible because it may not deteriorate further and therefore it is just part of normal wear and tear. But if it could be shown that the oil consumption is getting worse every oil change, I'd begin to worry.
Nice thing about a cylinder leakdown test is that it could show you if there is a problem specific to one cylinder (not a good thing) or just overall general wear to rings, valve guides, etc., which indicates more like a pattern of normal wear and tear.
And that truck you talked about is probably burning a quart every 100 miles!
When I finally got rid if the &%$*)@!~# Vega, I found an old 1966 Plymouth Valiant with well over 100,000 miles on the "Slant-Six". It leaked like sieve and once I finally replace all of the gaskets and seals, it burned a quart every 500 miles; I was overjoyed at how little oil it used. I drove that car 80,000 miles and once again, the consumption never got worse.
Just because an engine burns oil, that does not mean it is about to come apart.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I remember adding a lot of oil. Some customers needed a quart every third or fourth tank of gas.
We thought nothing of that at the time.
I suppose that's why I don't think adding a bit of oil once in awhile is a big deal.
Course that's easy to say when it's not MY car!
I myself would be quite concerned about a car burning no oil whatsoever, especially since I am a hard driver. I really prefer my cars to use a small amount of oil when I am driving near redline.
Another issue worth noting is that very often the owner's perception of how much oil they are using and why is inaccurate. On my car, for instance, if you checked the oil say 10-15 minutes after stopping you would be wrong by 1-2 quarts. My engine needs at least one-half hour before the dipstick reads accurately.
So what I was doing was adding oil above the recommended level, and the engine was pushing it out, causing small leaks and making me think I had TWO problems when in fact I had neither a leak nor was I burning oil.
Cylinder leakdown test! It puts in the science and takes out the guesswork.
Also, in stop-and-go driving, often as the oil gets burned up or leaks out some other way, other contaminants get into it, so it looks like you still have the same amount of oil. Take it out on a good, long highway trip, though, and you may then notice some oil consumption.
I change my Intrepid's oil about every 3-4,000 miles. 5 quarts come out, and 5 quarts go back in. I still check my oil level frequently, just because I guess, with some of the old clunkers I've driven in the past, it's just programmed into me!
My question is in regards to how I should proceed with an auto shop that I've been dealing with. I don't think I necessarily got ripped off, but I know that the shop screwed up in their diagnosis so I wanted to get some input from an unbiased jury.
The Facts:
I took my car in to investigate a check engine light, rattling upon acceleration and poor performance symptoms. I went to a AAA approved facility with a good local reputation. The service advisor estimated 2 hours to diagnose at $65 an hour for a total of 130. I told the advisor that I wanted to know exactly what the problem was prior to proceeding any further. The shop ended up keeping the car for 1 week and 2 days, but, fortunately only charged an extra half hour on top of the original 2 hours for a total of $162.50 (although, who knows how long they actually WORKED on the car). Service advisor said that the problem was PINPOINTED(He used that word several times) to the two oxygen sensors and that replacement of those sensors would repair the problem. I asked if he was certain if that would fix it, and he replied that he was.
Was charged 250 per sensor and 1 hour for labor for a total of $565 on top of the $162 I paid for diagnostics.
The same day I picked up the car, I noticed the same symptoms. The next day, the light returned. Took it back into the shop and was told that they would look it over again at no charge, but that I would need to pay for any additional parts requiring replacement.
Two days later they arrived at another diagnosis indicating the necessity for further repairs/replacements (according to them,-it is to repair the problem that caused the sensors to fail in the first place-why they didn't catch this the first time around I have no idea). They still stand by their assessment that the O2 sensors needed replacement, even though they weren't necessarily the CAUSE of the CEL (as indicated originally).
My question is this: Purely on the basis of contract law alone, I would imagine that I have a pretty good case for getting my money back - The shop gave me their diagnosis along with their assurance that it was accurate (they didn't say, "it MIGHT be the O2 sensors, let's replace it and see what happens"), I relied on the professional diagnosis as a basis to authorize the repair, and the diagnosis was wrong. The shop doesn't deny missing the root of the problem in their diagnosis. Based on the above facts alone, shouldn't I be compensated for at least part of the cost I paid?
My dilemma is this: It would be a lot easier for me to stand firm on this if the shop people were jerks. However, they have been more or less friendly during this situation. I believe that they did make a good faith effort to diagnose and repair the problem, they just screwed up.
On the one hand, they made a mistake just as all professionals will do. On the other hand, why should I have to pay for their mistake?
What do you think? What is the protocol for mechanical misdiagnoses? Also, what about the price of all of this (close to $800?!!). Was I ripped off on the price alone?
Thanks for any insights.
Alex
I am not qualified to say they screwed up but $500 + and diagnosis on top of it seems way out of line to me. Is this a Lexus?????
The more I think about it, the more I feel like I got ripped off. Should've taken it to the dealer in the first place.
Thanks for the insights though.
If they eventually fixed it and didn't charge you more than once for each item, they are probably losing money to make you happy. Do you plan on having work done there again? The answer to that question should figure in your decision whether to protest.
Harry
You might have a hard time with this one in Small Claims...you'd probably win, but maybe not, because in fact there is no law per se against being only marginally competent. If there were, the jails would be full.
If this really bothers you, consider offering to go into mediation with the shop if they will not give you a partial refund. They probably feel they are the loser with all the extra shop time, and you probably feel you are the loser with the extra money. I rather doubt the dealer would have been all that cheaper.
I'd say this is a coin toss as to fault, with a slight edge toward you as the victim needing partial compensation.
Jim
I talked to the owner a few days later and he was actually very nice. He said that they redid the entire diagnostic and it still pointed to one of the O2 sensors (which were BRAND NEW). He then told me that one of the sensors was actually defective so it was replaced with a new one ordered from Mazda. With this new replacement, the car now runs like new.
I still think that it was misdiagnosed and that it wasn't the sensors at all. What are the chances that a brand new sensor ordered directly from Mazda, is defective? My conspiracy theory is that it actually WAS the fuel pump (which seems more probable given the symptoms my car had), and that the shop replaced it for me free of charge rather than admitting the diagnostic error.
Either way, I know the shop probably lost out on this deal given all the time that my car was worked on. I'm happy with the role that the owner played - once he got involved, my car was fixed in the span of a day. Although it's been a month of hell, the owner helped to restore my faith in auto mechanics.