Think You Might Have Been Cheated? Ask the "Judge" and "Jury" Right Here!

Mr_Shiftright

Hello, this is "Judge" Shiftright, your Host in Maintenance and Repair....

and this is the place to state your case! Let us help you decide if you've been "done wrong" or not.

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. Do NOT use any dealer's or repair shop's name! Posts using names will be deleted asap!

2. This is a game, not a courtroom. We are not lawyers or judges and don't claim legal knowledge. This is a Support Group for consumers, by other consumers.

3. Aggrieved Consumer: State your complaint and give us as many facts as you can. Try to be clear and fair.

4. Jury: Listen to the Aggrieved Consumer's story and then give your opinion...was he/she cheated or not? Give reasons, and try to be fair to both consumer and shop/dealer.

5. Judge Shiftright will also render his amateur opinion.

6. Don't forget to smile and have fun. Rants, raves and cusses are not the point here. This is your chance to rationally state your case and maybe get some ideas.

armtdm

97 Isuzu Rodeo would not start, just clicked away, Could be many things so had it towed to dealer.

Alternator replaced to the tune of $495
$60 towing
$330 part
$50 charge battery
$55 labor
I do not feel I should have been charged to charge the battery, most places would do that when they replace the bad inginition part, kind of a free service. The part itself, well, that's another story.The labor is about right, part is easy to get to.
What do you think?

isellhondas

Charging you for a battery charge was ridiculous.

And...50.00 ???

Are you serious??

Mr_Shiftright

If in fact you were charged $50 just to charge the battery, that was IMO completely unjustified, and you should complain mightily. My god, you could get close to an entire new battery for that!
Also, how far was this tow? I'm wondering if that was "packed" as well.

stealth1969

I don't mean this in a bad way and please don't take it wrong, but do you look like a female? I think they took you. The towing seems high unless they had to tow you quite a ways. The battery charge wow. You said the part was easy to get to but it took them about an hour, I suppose part of that was troubleshooting. That is also a mighty expensive alternator. Please, take no offense to what I have said.

armtdm

Actually the Isuzu is my son's and he had no options or time to look elsewhere for the repair. I did write a nasty note to the gen mgr of the dealership but they could care less. But, we will not be gong back there. Not even a reply, customer service is a lost art with dealers

iwasscammed

Dec. 2000 bought 95 windstar, traded my van in for $3000.00
Told additional coolant was an overspill.
Told 124 point check done on van.
Two weeks later needs new engine
One month later needs another new engine
Asked for refund of $3000.00 and return of van.. they refused.
contacted Attorney and they took my loaner away.
Today another leak, think it may be transmission this time.
Because of homepage I created, they put new tires, brakes and rotors on.
one day later, another brake job, they put a warped rotor on.
Seat belts don't hold car seats in, they require an h-latch, they knew this but didn't say anything. Tested against 4 other windstars and none of the seat belts hold car seats in.
Should I be made to keep this for the next 5 yrs??? Thanks all.
Lisa

Mr_Shiftright

Hi Lisa,

This sounds like you are already in all-out war with the dealer, and with attorneys involved, I don't think we should comment. But sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds like a big disappointment.

Okay, next case please!

jvirginia

-$60.00 is actually the going rate in many large cities these days. That usually covers a tow range somewhere around 20 - 25 miles.

-$55.00 labor charge actually sounds very reasonable for both ignition part and alternator replacement.

-really steep prices on the parts but I figure it's because you went to a dealer and he used new manufacturer parts and not reconditioned parts. (A reconditioned alternator runs approx $115.00 for the '97 Rodeo)

-the charge for the battery recharge is bogus and unjustified, not to mention way high. They should have jump started it and then tested to see if the alternator and charging system were working properly.

2kaccordv6

Here's my story, I bought a 2000 Honda Accord V6 Coupe 6months ago. I love the car, but after looking several times at these two chips on my front bumper cover, I am convinced that the cover has been repainted without being even sanded! Underneath, there's no primer or plastic, but SHINEY WHITE PAINT!!! Today when I washed it, I noticed it's even cracking, and underneath theres a masking line/ridge where it was poorly masked. It's obvious-even where it has small chips you can see the white paint underneath! The initial two chips I was talking about are about an inch by an inch! I bought the car new. Can they sell me the car as new without telling me about this repair?? Do I have a case as far as a law suit goes? I mean if I knew the bumper had been repainted, I would have just bought a used car and saved all kinds of cash. Your info is appreciated.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, it's possible there was transit damage that was repaired prior to the sale. This is often done, and really, in most cases I have no objection to some touch up work IF it was done right. Yours was apparently not done correctly, and I feel you have every right to ask that the bumper be redone again. I don't think a little transit damage makes your car "used", no, I think that is an extreme and not easily defensible position. if I were you I'd take the easiest route to a solution, and offer the peace pipe in exchange for a nicely repainted front bumper.....with a warranty on the paint job, of course!

If the dealer will not comply, go to small claims court with this, after getting an estimate to repaint the bumper from a good (the most expensive would be just fine, thank you) body shop....pick one that paints Rolls Royces.....show the dealer the small claims summons and the repair estimate....he/she may then offer to paint it at their own shop....which is fine if they give you a written warranty on the paint....whatever the standard paintwork warranty is at most reputable body shops...is it one year?

2kaccordv6

Saying I would have to go to small claims court, would it cost me more, than to just pay for it out of my pocket? I have a feeling that they might try and refuse me the repair. It might be a good idea not to say anything about their repair, and just tell them that the paint is falling off my bumper, and I suspect a factory defect. Do you think?

pjyoung

It'll cost you $50 - $100 to file a small claims case. You represent yourself (no lawyers). You've got to have a LEGAL claim, though.

cmaher

IN REFERENCE TO THE 97 IZUSU LET ME RESPOND AND CLARIFY THE SERVICE PERFORMED AND CORRECT CHARGES ASSOCIATED WITH THIS WORK, AS I REPRESENT THE DEALER THAT DID THE WORK.

A. THE CUSTOMER WAS NOT BILLED $50.00 FOR CHARGING THE BATTERY. THE VEHICLE CAME IN WITH A "NO START,JUST CLICKS " PROBLEM. THE CUSTOMERS BILL HAS A LINE ITEM THAT READS "BATTERY/CHARGE SYSTEM DIAGNOSIS" $24.95
IN ORDER TO DETERMINE THE PROBLEM, IT WAS NECESSARY TO TEST THE BATTERY AND CHARGE SYSTEM, AND THIS DIAGNOSTIC CHARGE WAS $24.95-----AND FOUND THAT THE ALTERNATOR NEEDED TO BE REPLACED.

NO WHERE ON THE BILL IS A $50.00 CHARGE FOR CHARGING THE BATTERY!!

B. THE CUSTOMER WAS QUOTED BEFORE WORK WAS DONE, IN FACT ACCORDING TO OUR REPRESENTATIVE THEY QUESTIONED THE PRICE OF THE PART AND DECIDED TO LOOK AROUND AND SUBSEQUENTLY CALLED BACK AND APPROVED ALL WORK BEFORE IT WAS PERFORMED.

WE ARE A FAMILY OWNED AND OPERATED DEALERSHIP SERVING THE RICHMOND AREA FOR OVER 70 YEARS. WE DO OUR BEST TO PROVIDE QUALITY SERVICE AT COMPETITIVE PRICES.

CHIP

armtdm

Guess the other $25 went somewhere else! Oh, and Isuzu makes a remanufactured alternator for much less which the parts dept. had no knowledge of either and insisted did not exist. Very competent. SUV was needed ASAP, had no choice on where the part was purchased and they refused to put in a used part. . He failed to mention above that this is a new Isuzu dealership! On a previous visit I inquired on the tranny fluid change, they kept showing me a manual and picture and I kept saying this is not what is under my SUV, they insisted until a mechanic was finally consulted and verified that the manual was wrong! Very knowledgeable on Isuzus for a new dealership????????, oh, they are primarily a Ford dealer (Isuzu is new) which in itself tells you something about service.
Makes no diff. The above dealer is history! They should really visit the www.contour.org page for an ear full of Ford service!!!!!!!
Time for new topics!

isellhondas

That there are always two sides to every story.

armtdm

And of course, a dealer is trying to cover costs but the part itself is marked up anywhere from 40%-75% depending on the dealer (they have tremendous leeway), labor and probably (no proof) a markup on the towing as well or a kickback from the towing service for the recommendation. I still maintain that a diagnostic charge should not exist when the part is purchased and installed by the dealer. That is built into the part markup and labor charge for installation My private mechanic would never think of doing that. Based upon what I know I could purchase the same part for from another Isuzu dealer, plus towing and installation I overpaid by $50-75. Water over the dam!

But, we need to move on to new cases in this forum. Mine is old hat now. Thanks for listening.

Mr_Shiftright

And thanks to both parties for taking the time to respond!

black_tulip

My wife has a '99 Camry with 66K miles, which
she took in for a routine oil change to the
dealer. The dealer informed her that the timing belt needs to be changed as the mileage has
exceeded 60K. She could not find me, so she
authorized the ~$400 repair.
I then looked into the manual and learnt that
Toyota recommends the change at mileages above
90K.
Well, I don't think we were ripped off, just
something that left a sour taste.

jvirginia

I have never owned a Toyota and so I'm not familiar with their maintenance schedule. However, most manufacturers have a 'normal' service maintenance schedule and a 'heavy duty' service maintenance schedule. A '99 model year vehicle with 66K miles translates into approx 25K - 33K miles per year. That would probably be enough to move your vehicle into the heavier service schedule. I wouldn't be surprised to see the timing belt changeout recommended at 60K miles in that maintenance schedule, especially with the recommendation coming from the dealer.

armtdm

Sorry, timing belts are changed by years (age does dry rot them) and miles. There is no normal or severe schedule. My 92 Camry V6 has a 60,000 mile schedule but I believe that it was increased for later years. Also, timing belt changes rarely show up in a manual but sometimes they do. Also, there is confliciting info on whether this engine is interference or not which also has a bearing.

However, in my opinion what the dealer did was impose his maintenance schedule on you They all have a dealer recommended schedule which is always more service then the manual and they all claim that the service is needed due to "where you live" In short, if the manual says 90,000 you were ripped off! And the cost, sorry, my Toyota dealer runs discount coupons all the time for timing belts at $198 including the belt and labor. Most that this should cost is $250, $300 if they replaced the two other belts as well. You did not mention replacing the two accessory belts that have to be taken off to get to the timing belt?

black_tulip

Well, they replaced the timing belt and the
water pump. What other two belts? Please elaborate.
The repair came to $350 with the oil change.
I guess their prices are on the higher side.
Now the question is should I wait till 150K miles
or 120K miles for the next one?

armtdm

They also replaced the water pump?? Why. Toyota has not had a problem with these. They normally replace at 120,000 (with a 60,000 belt change) as it is cheaper to do so at the same time as the belt. So, if they replaced the timing belt, water pump and also two accessory belts the cost is about right,. The issue though is that none of this was needed if the manual says 90,000 the water pump and belts could have been done then asssuming there was no proglem with the water pump. So, price okay but service may have not been necessary for another 24,000 miles!!!!!!!

pjyoung

Honda always suggested changing the water pump when the timing belt was changed. They said the reason was that the replacement of the timing belt accounted for almost all of the labor. We didn't have to, but 24,000 miles later, we would have faced another $700 charge to replace a water pump.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think this was a "rip-off", because you got what you paid for....perhaps it was a bit premature, but belts do in fact break now and then at 60K....not frequently, but it could be your car.

As for the water pump, I agree, once you are in there already on a car with 66K, I would replace the pump if it were not a terribly expensive part.

So, at worst, I would judge that you have been somewhat "oversold" by some people's standards, (not mine) but certainly not cheated.

jjardine0

This looks like the perfect place for my question.
In October, I had some body work done to repair both of the rear quarter panels on my car (95 Accord). Rust was beginning to bubble through the surface, and I wanted to get it fixed before winter started. I also had the car undercoated at the same place, the wheels painted, and touched up all the chips I could find. The cost was $CDN 750. On my receipt, the words "No Warranty on Rust Work" are printed in boldface type.
In February, the same two panels appeared to be in poor shape. Rust is plainly visible where the panel meets the rear bumper on both sides. I contacted the body shop manager, and he said that there is no guarantee on rust work, and that these repairs sometimes last months, sometimes years. He said there was nothing they could do. I was under the impression that any repair should last least a couple of years. Now, in April, the two rear quarter panels look worse than when I took the car to the shop in October.
I would be grateful for any advice in this matter. My problem is not with the car manufacturer, because I bought the car used, knowing there had been some body work done on it in the past. My problem is the shoddy work that I paid for - is there anything I can do about it? Or should I expect to get a few months out of this type of repair? If I have a leg to stand on, what would be an appropriate course of action?

Thanks,
Jeff J

armtdm

If the panels were original equip and never damaged I don't think that a 95 would have had these rust problems unless in a heavy salt use area. My opinion would be that these may not be original equip but replacements, possibly black/grey market and that is why they rusted in the first place. In any event, with the language on the invoice stating no warranty I don't think you have much of a claim. As to price, I have no idea what that should cost but it does not seem excessive for what you describe. Undercoating is a thing of the past. This can actually lock in and trap water and cause rust. All cars since 90s have great rust dipping done at factory and need no undercoating. Dampens the noise perhaps but that is all.

Mr_Shiftright

Sorry, but I think the shop was justified in not warrantying rust repairs unless extreme measures were taken to isolate and seal the rust....basically, chemically dunking the entire body. I know that sounds radical but rust is extremely difficult (some say impossible) to arrest completely. IT will always come back.

Mr_Shiftright

I think maybe you weren't advised well...the shop wanted the work of course, but I myself often tell people not to attack rust problems unless they are willing to lower their expectations of how long the repair will last.

cutehumor

Toyota dealership accused of "tax bumping" customers as told by ex finance managers. What does everyone think? The story is on this link

http://www.gomemphis.com/caraudio/15bump.htm

armtdm

HMMM. Extended warranties are very lucrative and this article states that the practice is aimed primarily at lower socio economic groups. these are the people that problably overpaid for that vehicle in the first place as they did not have access to pricing information and may not understand the system and how it works, or how sales tax is calculated. However, if, in fact, this took place without the knowledge of the consumer then yes, it should be investigated. However, WITH ALL OF THESE DISCRIMINATION ACTIONS, there is much much more then meets the eye and we do not know, nor will ever know the true facts and it may simply be a discrimination charge due to lack of a promotion or some sort of similar issue which prompted the employee to seek retribution. This is tough to judge and this one is too early to have an opinion on. But, based on other areas of financing scams and car dealership sales techniques it could be true!

Mr_Shiftright

Tax-Bumping Article

I see all kinds of problems with interpreting the "facts" here....one being a possibly disgruntled ex-employee recently fired. I'd really need to see some proof if I were on the jury, beyond the testimony of a person who may or may not being trying to rectify a bad situation vs. just getting even. Hard to say, hard to say. Took him long enough to find his moral compass though. But maybe that's okay, too.

I think people are sometimes tricked and both intentionally and unintentionally confused at dealerships. This is why sites like Edmunds are so great if folks can get 10 minutes access to a computer. Once you know the numbers, or can use a finance calculator, you can defend yourself against people who don't mind seeing consumers staying ignorant.

algist

95 Buick LeSabre, 71k, went to Buick dealer for transm gasket replacement due to leak. $152.70. After repair, still leaked. Went back and was told transm coils were leaking $199.81, coolant was leaking $423.30 and oil pan gasket was leaking $323.08. Shop supervisor told me three times that if the coolant leak wasn't repaired, I could get stranded. When asked how that could be leaking when no coolant was on my garage floor nor was the coolant container low, these comments were ignored. He convinced me to have the coils replaced and the coolant leak repaired, (so I wouldn't get stranded) which turned out to be replacing the water pump (what do I know). Also charged $13.20 a piece for two gallons of coolant. I think the coolant leak was either bogus or was caused by the shop. How could it leak with no evidence of it? Incidentally, I did not have the oil leak fixed. I'm not only a woman, but a 64 year old one. Women and older people maybe????

armtdm

First if truly a transmission pan gasket then that should cost $50-$75 with the fluid (unless in a difficult spot and something else had to be removed to get to it. Could be another transmission gasket though depending on car. Also, I have never heard of transmission coils (did he mean the coils/tubes to the transmission cooler in the radiator) , maybe someone else has?

The lesson here is that you should have obtained a second opinion prior to okaying any further repairs by this dealer after the first one The coolant and oil leaks should have been found the first time. It is possible that although you did not see any coolant loss while under there they saw the leak around the pump???????. Is this your regular service dealer, have they been good to you before etc.? Not sure where to go on this one!

isellhondas

I would like to see a copy of the work order. First of all there is no such thing (that I know of) as transmission "coils".

Also, I doubt if the shop "caused" a problem. Often shops get things blamed on them when a customer refuses to believe they have a problem.

Like to hear the other side of this one.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I bet I know what happened. The transmission oil cooler in the radiator leaked into the engine coolant portion of the radiator. So what she got was a new radiator. If that's the case, these charges make some sense. I'm sure getting the radiator out and oil pan gasket off is labor intensive.

The only issue I see here is whether the oil pan gasket was necessary. That would depend on the severity of the leak. But certainly if the trans oil tank had ruptured into the coolant tank, this is a serious situation and needs immediate attention.

If, in fact, my guess as to the type of repair is correct, then I'd say there was no cheating going on here. Just typical high labor rates at a dealership, due to high overhead costs passed onto consumers.

algist

Trans pan gasket leaking
labor 1 hr 73.00
filter kit 32.89
gasket op 29.81
lube atf 17.00
total 152.70

lines, transmission/transale oil cooler
repai or replace both
labor 2 hrs 146.00
1 pipe 22.63
1 pipe asm 31.18
total 199.81

replace water pump
labor 4 hrs 292.00
water pump kit 104.90
2 gal coolant 26.40
total 423.30

Mr_Shiftright

Well...looking all that over, the charges seem about right for a dealer, for parts and labor.

The question then becomes whether or not the water pump were leaking at all, or bad enough to be replaced.

Is it possible for a water pump to leak but not to drip on the ground?

Well, yes, if the shaft bearing is just starting to go, a little coolant could pool in some crevice and be noticeable to inspection without actually dripping all over the place.

So, IF in fact the pump was starting to dribble, it would be a good thing to replace it then and there, as a leaky water pump could cause serious engine damage.

I'd say that you might have been able to control the costs somewhat....was it necessary to replace BOTH transmission lines? maybe, maybe not.
Did the transmission need a full service and filter or was this done recently?
Is the old water pump available for inspection? On what basis was it replaced? Leak? Loosness?

Anyway, it's hard for me to know if the work was really necessary without inspecting the car itself, but if a) trans oil was leaking out from the lines, and b) someone did in fact see some drops of coolant from the pump, then the repairs seem to be in order.

this is one of those repairs I call "a matter of degree". Dealers tend to do EVERYTHING and cover all their bases. If you fixed every little glitch and seepage in an old car, you'd go broke, so you have to pick and choose what to fix and what not to fix. The dealer likes to fix everything, of course.

Probably a good choice not to fix the oil pan gasket at this time. Maybe a little tightening will work, or you can just live with a few drops every day. Keep an eye on it, though.

thanks for letting us look at and comment. Any more remarks or jhelpful suggestions on this one?

armtdm

In Richmond VA it is still $55 or $60 for a dealer

algist

Mr. Shiftright Host - thanks for the input and opinion!
armtdm - $73/hr? city in Wisconsin
As a side fact: I had repair work done at another Buick dealer (Kenosha, WI) for 10 years until owner retired and closed shop. They had been the ultimate in integrity, fairness, honesty, and a high reputation for never taking advantage of women or senior citizens. In short, I always felt "safe" in taking my automobiles to them. Thus, I was searching for another dealership with equal reputation. Did I find that in this dealer? I'll never really know if their repairs were entirely fair or not, but I do know I won't return to them.

Mr_Shiftright

$73 an hour for labor is cheap for where I live (SF Bay Area--some dealers are just about pushing $100). Do you get the idea that complex, expensive cars are going to plummet in value as soon as the warranty runs out? "Yes, would you take the dashboard out of that 7-series BMW for me, please?...oh, 14 hours labor + parts to replace the frimble socket? Yikes!"

isellhondas

Like to replace everything too. Sometimes it's smart to replace anything questionable while you are "in there".

And, 73.00/hr. labor charges are pretty common. I've seen over 100.00 per hour in some speciality shops, Jaguars, etc in the Bay Area and that was more than five years ago.

I knew a guy who needed his heater core replaced in his Peugeot 604 a few years ago. TWELVE hours of miserable labor plus the core was another 200.00. Add coolant, clamps tax, etc and do the math!

Mr_Shiftright

I did the math...it comes out to more than the value of a 604 Peugeot!

isellhondas

Even without the labor!

algist

I had contested the charge for the coolant repair with my charge card company. Said company needs a letter from another mechanic stating the repair was not necessary. For the sake of this discussion, let's suppose the repair was not necessary. Since I don't have the old parts taken off the car, there isn't any way a mechanic at this point could look at the car and determine whether or not those repairs were necessary is there?

isellhondas

At this point anyway. I guess my advise in the future would be to get a second opinion if you don't feel right about the first estimate.

300msadowner

Ok here's my sad story wondering if i have a lemon case.. I brought a 2000 300M with 197 miles at delivery. Ihad the car or 7 months now and I must've took it back to the shop at least 5 times..

3 months after buying the car I felt that the steering wheel was vibrating.

1. took it the shop and theyu said that my tire on the front was a bit low so they put air in it and it stopped the shimmy.

2. 4 days later the shimmy returned and the car began drifting to the left. took it to the shiop again and they claiomed that they didn't feel the shimmy in the wheel but agrred that the steering wheel was a bit off center. so they did an aliment.

3. a day later I did feel the shimmy and tokit back to the shop, they claimed that I had a nail in my front right tire and they replaced the tire.

4. two weeks later the shimmy returned and now the car drifts to the left. took it to the shop and they claimed that I had anoher nail in the left tire. So they plug the tire.

5. The shimmy stops but the drift was still there. after a confusing diaagreement with the dealer they claimed I had a tires pull and need to to take the matter up with the tire manufacture,. Which i did. after a review the tire guys says the plug that they put on the tire had damaged the tire belt and had to take it up with them. Which i did and they replaced that tire, rotated the wheels.

6. on the same day that I took the car the shimmy returned, they said that they had to re balance the tires and ddi an aliment.

7. The shimmys stopped but the car pulls to the left, took back to the shop and thy got really nasty with me claiming that with high performance tires you'll get a pull sometimes, and they way they determine aliment problems is by driving the car and if it doesb't pull witthin 5 seconds then it ok. and if i still have problem take it up with the tire company again

8. 3 days later whenever i press the brake the shimmy returned, took t baack to the dealer and they smoothed out the rotors to stop the shimmy

9. 7 days later i got tired of the car pull to left took it back to the tire company and they claimed that I may have front end problem took it back to the dealer afetr a long disagrement agian they kept the car over nioght and had a outside source look at the car and found maybe that thieer aliment equiment was off so the outside source did another aliment, rotated the wheels . they said it stopped and that the steering is tight everything was ok but now two weeks later I starting to fell the left pull again, I'm sure if I'm tyher problem here and this type of pull is common for these high performacne cars. I'm not sure if anymore. I'm very hesitate to take the car back maybe its not a problema at all

Your advice is needed
Thanks concerned and mad

pjyoung

I've got a 99 300M that doesn't exhibit any tendencies to pull. Oh, it'll "drift" left if I take my hands completely off the wheel and leave them off for 5 seconds or longer(as your dealer mentions). I'm not comfortable going much longer at speed with no hands on the wheel. I did knock it out of alignment when I hit a pothole last winter, but the dealer did a 4 wheel alignment and it tracks straight as an arrow for me.

I have seen complaints on the 300M board (haven't seen you post over there, though) about a pulling tendency. It looks like it's an issue with the tires (Goodyear) although I have Goodyears on mine and they have had no problem.

What kind of roads do you drive on? Are there a lot of potholes or rough roads? Is it possible that you might have bent a rim? Is it a forceful pull that you have to fight to keep it going straight, or is it something that "pulls" when you let go of the wheel?

I'd suggest you post your problem in the 300M topic in sedans. As I said, some people have had this problem, and they can tell you what they had done to correct it.

isellhondas

Take their hands off the wheel at 40 MPH. When the car eventually drifts a bit as they all do, these people will declare..." IT PULLS TO THE RIGHT!"

Mr_Shiftright

This "pulling" thing can be a very subjective experience. I don't think you will find a car on the road today that remains perfectly straight for more than a few seconds.

Now, shimmy, that's another problem and certainly solvable.

Why don't you take another 300M out on the road and see what it does? If it feels the same, then that's just the car no doubt.

I don't really think the 300M is a "high performance" car, and that's probably part of the problem. The suspension may be designed to be very forgiving and compromising. You might, in fact, not much like the suspensionfeel and ride of a real high performance car.

It sounds to me like the dealer is trying to solve your problem. He doesn't want to see you anymore than you want to see him. Besides, there is no motive for him trying and trying to solve your problem, time and time again, and not doing it right. Profit? Sadistic fun? I doubt it.

I think, if anything, this pulling is either a quirk of the car itself and not the dealers fault or b) you are expecting too much of this car's ability to track straight on today's often lousy roads.

As for the shimmy, this is a balance issue with wheels or tires, and shimmy while braking is a brake rotor issue usually.

If they cannot fix the shimmy problem, you may have a case under Lemon Laws (check the laws in your particular state, don't follow blind advice on this). As for the pulling problem, I do not think you have a case under the Lemon Law.

300msadowner

I agree, but the car pulls even when I hold the wheel.