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Comments
I'm close finalizing deal on a remaining 2002 $19,460 MSRP. Right now looks like $16,750 (+Tax & Title)less $4,800 allowance for my 98 Hatchback DX that has 90,000 miles on it. Never know for certain but seems reasonable based on not able to get any further competitive interest/offers from 3 other local Honda dealers. Was told there is a $500 manufacturer to dealer incentive that ends today? I'm still a little concerned with the heavy discounting and what it will mean to resale in a couple of years considering they didn't want to budge off of MSRP earlier this year. The dealers say not to worry about it, but hard not to at least think about it!
With regards to resale value, if you pay less, you'll definitely get less in the future. The only people who get burned are those who paid close to $19k when they first came out. As it is right now, 03 are going for $17k (at this dealership I bought my 02 from). The other dealers are selling for approx $17.5-$18k in metro Detroit. Since 02 and 03 are essentially the same except for laser cut key, new blue color and heat rejecting windows, I say you shouldn't be worry too much about the future. People who buy Si buy it because they like the car. Hatchback and whatever power it has. At least you have $1-$2k advantage over what the other people paid when it first came out.
hammie: I still say not to pay the noise in reverse any attention. Every Honda I've ever owned has made the noise and some of them have had over 130,000 miles on the original clutch without showing signs of wear. If it bothers you that bad maybe you need to sell your SI and buy another A4. Used ones are pretty cheap.
It is people like you who never question and always follow. I'm sure when you bring your beloved Si to your Honda dealer for some squeak and rattle or just for some noise, you'll just take what the dealership feeds you and we all know what that it - "Oh that noise, it is normal".
I've heard that many times in my previous ownership of a Honda.
She answered your question about the gear whine. She's owned 2 02 Si's and countless other Hondas. Honda's have a gear meshing sound when you put them in reverse. All Civics have the sound and as you said the ones you tested did.
A4's do get cheap quick. If you wanted a cheap beater you coulda got a nice one for the price of the Si and had a silent reverse, a turbo 150hp, 4 wheel drive, HID's and everything.
I don't compare the Si to my Lexus, but then I wouldn't compare an A4 to a Lexus LS400 either.
I did not do as well as you. I went to the mat with the Honda dealer & VW deal & lost both matches! I truly could not make up my mind between the Si & GTI, so decide to try & buy based on the best deal I could make.
Local Honda store has 2 02 Si "demos". One with 3K & another with 2.3K miles (not 5K as previously posted). They offered my $6,800 for my 97 Del Sol Si, but would not go below $17,900 for either of their demos. I said I would keep my DS unless could get the Si out the door for $7,000. They said $11,200 & I walked. They called me the next day saying it was the last day for a special deal on O2 Si & that they had a party interested in my Del Sol, offered my $8,800 for DS, making it $9,200 for 02. I said send my the interested party so I can sell the DS at retail & then I'll bargin on Si. No deal! I guess they are not too desperate enough yet to depart with their Si as they certainly are not coming down to sub $16K levels. Incidentally, I looked at the dipstick on the 02s - yep, both were down a quart!
My experience with at 02 GTI with 14AK miles was similar. Best I could get was $9,300, so I drove off.
Since I am only willing to spend $7K for either of these rides, I guess I am not really ready to part with the DS. I suspect I will get one of the newer ones in a year or two, but for now I will continue to enjoy 40 mpg and let me $7K earn a little more interest. I may try sell the DS myself, but experience with a 94 DS suggests that there is not a big market for these, especially when the rain starts to fall here in WA state! OR perhaps these cars will still be on the lot at the end of the month...
But I think your initial offer might be too low. For them to give you $6800 and you to offer $7k, that would be only $13.8k. That would be low balling them but I guess they lowballed you on the trade. I think it is best for you to sell the Del Sol privately. It makes negotiation on the Si much easier. But at $17,900 it is definitely not a deal since it is a dealer demo!
Which part of the country are you from? Even from carsdirect.com, you can get the Si for $16.7 (the last time I checked). Definitely pass for $17.9k
I've put over 1,000,000 miles on Hondas (no joke), and have never had a MT problem.
Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
I can see why you are not fond of it now since it sounds like your car is working fine regardless of the check engine light.
BTW, does the light come on all the time? I mean, did the light come on again after you started your car again?
Someone else noted that after the oil level got very low, their "Check Engine" light came on.
The lightweight oil, and perhaps very loose tolerances, may be contributing to unusually high oil consumption in the initial miles.
I wouldn't think the level would drop that low in a mere 1000 miles, but who knows?
Anyway, just something you might want to check... just to be safe, in case you haven't.
On the other hand, the overall noise, relative to our '99 Si, was diminished at highway speeds. The drivetrain is astonishingly quiet. The engine hums like a sewing machine, reminding me of nothing so much as my old Mazda RX7 rotary. This '02 Si engine must be the smoothest 4 cylinder in history.
But about noise at speed: How about driving in the rain at interstate speeds? It sounds like hail is pounding on the side windows. Weird! Never heard the like of it before.
Love this car, though. I'm at a total loss to understand why they're not selling. This is one fine driver's machine.
It's a wonderful car.
So far, our only problem is that the center rear view mirror has come off.
I also hear the tapping noise the rain makes on the side of the windows. I thought it was just me .. guess it's one of those quirks.
I had the exact same problem that you described. What happened is that the car ate all the oil during the first 4,000 miles. The dealer first claimed that it was a leak, but I did not see any evidence of this after the initial problem. I changed dealers.
I wish I had better news for you. I have over 21,000 miles on my car and have had to check the oil every 500-1000 miles since it consumes so much. I would expect that you will have the same problem.
Here's my advice: document every dealer encounter, and have them check, add and change your oil. Depending on your state, you will need to give the dealership an opportunity to "fix" the problem (typically 3 or 4 attempts). Once you have done this, you will be eligible for a legal claim.
The manufacturer will tell you that it's OK to use 1 quart of oil every 1,000 miles. (This is no joke!) If you follow the manufaturers guideline for oil changes (one change every 10,000 miles under normal circumstances) you will have to add 6-10 quarts of oil between changes!
The most important step is to get the dealer to run an "oil consumption" test. They will accurately mark and measure that level between oil changes such that they can say determine exactly how much oil is being used. Once this is done, they will get an official response from Honda (make sure this is documented in your invoive) regarding the excess consumption after the test is completed.
I have a current legal case against Honda. If you need any more information about my experience or how to get it resolved , let me know.
I've noticed in this Civic discussion that owners problems are often automatically blamed on owner ignorance and stupidity. Same thing in the Toyota area. In the VW areas the problems are almost always blamed on poor quality of VW even when the owners are clearly to blame.
No wonder Honda has such great reliability reputation, when the cars break it is the owners fault;)
Maybe Si owners are seeing some result of the assembly process and QC at the Swindon, England Honda plant. Bummer.
The reason most problems here are blamed on the owner is that many problems can be traced to something the owner did or didn't do. Especially after the vehicle has been in service for a while.
Tprice has legitimate issue that the require dealership attention. Especially since he just got the car.
But if you buy a new Si and immediately take it out and do speed tests to see if yours is the fastest one on the block then find that it's drinking oil it's not the car's fault. You didn't read the break-in directions that specifically said avoid those situations.
Honda has a reputation for reliability because they seem to have one of the lowest occurences of problems with their cars over time. You may have drawn the short straw this time. Just because your one Honda has an issue doesn't mean Honda sucks. I mean even if 2% of Honda's cars have a problem that means 980,000 other Hondas are just fine. I'll take those odds.
Considering they've built and sold 400,000 Accords and 300,000 Civics for the past 10 years or so it would be very hard to hide inherent flaws.
Regarding Honda and reliability and my earlier post. No where did I even mention that Honda sucks. My point is that that there are quite a few problems with civic Si compared to the number of people posting here. And there were two people with Hondas requiring transmission replacement under warranty during the hour that I was in the waiting room. The transmissions were not for Civics but WOW how many transmissions are failing. I get a CEL and right away everyone blames the gas cap when I initially stated that I already was aware of the gas cap requirement to be secured properly. Now after the dealership has eliminated the gas cap as a possible problem I still have people blaming the gas cap. What kind of logic is this. The CEL occurred at less than 1/2 a tank, at startup, the gas cap was tight, the dealership stated the code was not for the gas cap, and you think I should get a second opionion. Not logical at all.
On the oil usage issue the owner was blamed for improper breakin even before anyone asked how the car was driven during break in miles. Not nice.
Moparbad - Here's one I came across that I thought you might find interesting. The trouble code mentioned is similar to the one you mentioned above. Perhaps it might be related.
17.INTERIOR SYSTEMS:INSTRUMENT PANEL:GAUGE:INDICATOR NHTSA Number: 630799
Bulletin Number: 030802 Bulletin Date: MAR 2002
Vehicle: 2002 Honda Civic
Summary: INFORMATION ON VEHICLES EXHIBITING MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP ON WITH DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE P1457, SLOW RESPONSE OF THE FUEL VENT MODULE. *TT
This of course is just the abbreviated version. Your dealer should have access the complete explanation and service procedure. Good luck.
Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
I was very happy with the price untill I asked them the total price after TTL, which they say will be 16,211. The difference is 1,763, and that means 607 after 8% sales tax.
Anybody know how much TTL will be considered reasonable here in CA ?
Quite a few problems? Have you bothered to check other forums? Any car can have problems. The thing with a Honda is chances are those problems are going to be few and far between when compared with comparable cars in their class. And if they are as problematic as you are making them out to be then I guess I am just darn lucky because mine run like clockwork.
I like my Si but I am not brainwashed to think since it is a Honda it will be trouble free.
Question- You earlier stated it is no secret that Honda is replacing transmissions in Accords and Odys.. This would indicate that there is a widespread problem with transmissions. You then state it is hasty for me to say question how many transmissions are being replaced. So is there a transmission problem or am I being hasty? Having a transmission fail on a Honda w/in 36,000 miles on a Honda is surprising to me and for two people at one dealership w/in one hours time have bad transmissions diagnosed was very surprising. And one owner had an Accord and the other a van.
You are fortunate that your car is problem free but this does not mean you should criticize those of us who do have cars with problems.
And maybe that particular service departmet does see more SI's and Hybrids than any other Civic. Again, without specifics that's heresay. And both models are in their first year of production so maybe they do need a few adjustments. Who knows .. I do know that mine has been problem free. Like I said, I guess I am just darn lucky .. maybe I should go play the lottery tonight.
There is not a widespread problem with Honda transmissions. Yes certain V6 models are getting replacement transmissions but it is far from widespread when it is only 2%. Widespread is almost all Taurus/Windstars/Caravans needing a transmission replacement within 60,000 miles. Some manufacturer's would kill to only have a 2% failure rate. I'm assuming that you had a conversation with the two people there since you know they both had a diagnosis of a bad transmission and they were under warranty. Did you find out if the cars they had were within the model range that Honda said was affected?
Why shouldn't I criticize those who do have problems when I get criticized and called a Honda fanatic because I don't?
http://www.evolutionimports.com
And what you posted about the transmissions is hearsay. If you look up hearsay on webster's it refers you to the definition of rumor which is this: "talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source". Please tell me what else you saying that there were 2 Hondas there under warranty getting their transmissions replaced could be defined as. And you say that it's verified? How? By you maybe. But you relaying that information to a 3rd party does become hearsay. And again, since you have so much information about these 2 cars what year models were they?
You were trying to make a blanket condemnation of Honda by saying that there were 2 Hondas at the dealership (heaven forbid someone actually get their car repaired in a service center) getting their transmissions replaced so therefore Honda must have a widespread problem. Honda has came out and given us data on how many transmissions could possibly be affected. And it's widely known that Taurus', Caravans, and Windstars have serious transmission problems going way back into their history and affecting significantly more than 2% of their models.
You know this is all unnecessary ... if you don't like you car or feel that there is a better car out there then get rid of it and get something that's a little more suitable for your needs.
quote anonymous- Maybe you should've treated the car better during the initial break-in period. end quote.
Is this helpful? No. The person had a legitimate problem of oil consumption. I can see we are not going to agree, this is nothing new to you as I think you post only to inflame others or your view is so detached from reality that most people do not agree with you. By the way, it is not hearsay if I witnessed the people being told that they needed new transmissions as I was a "witness" and this is not a rumor nor did I hear about it from a third party. If you can not understand this it explains a lot.
See post 1192 where I say that I like my Si. This is not Honda bashing.
There is a TSB for the fuel system problem on Civics. Is this problem legitimate?
fanatic- A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.
Even if I am a fanatic it is not without due cause. I love my boyfriend dearly because he is always there for me and has never let me down and if someone tried to insult him I would defend him til I was blue in the face. My car is also there for me every morning and has never let me down so I choose to defend it from erroneous information. So sue me.
Perhaps you should have waited for the 2003 Si so you could get a blue one to match your blue face;)
It is too funny to hear someones view that thinks discussing a mechanical problem of a vehicle is a personal insult. They are only machines made by imperfect people. Even the people who make Hondas make errors.
I think the high price is due to the fact that these guys have to make the necessary adjustments and file all appropriate paperwork to get these on to U.S. pavement.
I still think Honda could really get a foothold with this Si, if they just added the better tires, brakes, six-speed, and body kit (i.e., keep the 160hp engine). They could price this at $18K and really start selling these machines!