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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

pocahontaspocahontas Posts: 802
edited March 2014 in Honda
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Comments

  • pocahontaspocahontas Posts: 802
    I'm going to go head repost some information:


    To start, here's a direct link to Edmunds.com's (2001 New York Auto Show) coverage of the new 2002 Honda Civic Si.


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  • pocahontaspocahontas Posts: 802
    AND here are a few pics from the article:


    image


    imageimage What do you think? Thanks for your comments. ;-)


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  • rwgreenbergrwgreenberg Posts: 154
    This looks great. Thank God the Japanese are back in the low priced hatchback game. Or at least let's hope it's relatively low priced.
  • dudkadudka Posts: 451
    you know, civic si will have a stiffer competition this year than ever before. mitsu is bringing their lancer evo, with 4 wheel drive and turbo, subaru brought their impreza wrx. i see alot of 2001 civic`s with 4wd here in japan, just wondering why wouldn`t they bring it to us. i am actually consdering audi for my next car because of the 4 wheel drive in a that car. i don`t want a CR-V, even though it is smaller than most, it is still too high for me. i wouldn`t have minded honda HR-V, but it is not offered in the United state. Hello, honda, you have some awesome cars here in japan, bring them state side, you will see your sales fly through the roof. i want a civic si with 4wd, like impreza wrx, lancer evolution, audi A4 with quatro, or jdm civic 5 door hacch with 4 wd to help me in the winter. :-)
  • mdrivermdriver Posts: 385
    Honda sales are already through the roof (except for the '01 Civic). The '02 Civic Si will be made in the UK and imported to the US. They will probably only import a handful, ensuring that avaiability is low and price is high.

    I predict the Si will be priced close to $20k. Why? Because the old Si coupe was $18k and that had no ABS or side air bags, both of which come on the Si.
  • hoanvthoanvt Posts: 8
    I'm just so glad that Honda is still faithful to its royal fans.
  • kostamojen2kostamojen2 Posts: 284
    Faithful? with that ugly thing? :( Not to mention the loss of the 'bones! :(

    No thanks!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    Well, since my last comment got lost ....

    That thing is ugly. What designer (or team) thought that the Focus and the Echo were worth ripping off?

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • rmtraderrmtrader Posts: 30
    Ugly? Thy name is WRX. Yet, the WRX drives so well that it's owners care less about its profile than the feel behind the wheel. I suspect that the Civic SI will fall into the same category. Remember, there are only so many ways to design a hatchback.....
  • epicuruxepicurux Posts: 5
    At least the WRX has REAL performance ...
    That SI looks so much like a Focus ...
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    If you think that looks like an old Civic, I think you either need glasses or you should take another look. That front end is right from a focus.


    let's see:


    image

    image

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    hmmmm.... Are those even 2 different cars? I just can't tell.


    And, how about for comparison, we throw in a

    92 Civic (sorry, i don't have a better picture, but I think this one shows enough):

    image


    I have to apologize, I'm usually not so sarcastic, but sometimes its just plain fun.

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    Oh, and one more thing, ugly may be subjective, but at least the WRX can be picked out easily from a crowd. Maybe that's not always the best thing (especially when in a line of speeders when blowing past a trooper). But I give the designers credit for thinking outside the box (not to mention I LOVE the WRX for looks AND performance.)

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • rmtraderrmtrader Posts: 30
    epicurux, qbrozen,

    the WRX is still one of ugliest cars on the road. Thanks god it has good performance so it won't hang around long enough to take any stares away from the Aztec. The designers didn't think out of the box, they clearly were recent hires from Hyundai and Kia. You guys only like the looks of the WRX BECAUSE of its performance. I doubt either of you are looking at a 2.5RS just because, "I LOVE the looks." Give your heads a shake.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    um.... actually I did want the RS for the looks. Its not like IT has a lot of power. There are many vehicles out there that beat it. The only reason I couldn't get an RS was because my wife was one of those who thought it was ugly.

    But, back to the issue at hand. This is the Honda Si board. How did the WRX even get mentioned here? Was it because the argument is being made that the performance of the Si makes up for its ugliness? Now THAT deserves a "head shake".

    OK. Maybe ugly is a tad harsh for the Si shown here. How about boring? Is that less offensive? I like the last Si. That was so much better looking, in my opinion. At least I could tell what that is when its coming at me on the road. I'll never spot this one unless I glance at the emblem while blasting past it in my WRX. :)

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • markwancmarkwanc Posts: 1
    I have to admit that Honda must have stole the '02 Si design right out of the garbage bins in the back of the design plan office for the Ford Focus. I happen to like the Focus, so I also now happen to like the Si (Honda, shame on you for stealing designs!). Ford is gonna have an 'SVT' Focus that has 170 HP late in '01. I guess its gonna be about $18K, so this will be interesting to see the price tag of the Honda. I like the shifter position! The SVT Focus is gonna be a 6 speed, is the '02 Si also gonna be a 6 speed? I had a 2000 Si and with the 4:40 final drive ratio, it pulled about 3,700-3,800 RPM at 60MPH. It needed a 6 speed as the high RPM was just'too much' on long trips.
  • sunilbsunilb Posts: 407
    I think this SI is too little and too late. Think of the competition: Focus SVT and Sentra SE-R V-Spec (or even regular SE-R). Both of these cars will have more torque and more hp. Combine that with the un-sophisticated suspension (read: no double-wishbone) on the SI, and I don't really see how this car will be "better" than either of those. Okay, well, I can imagine the Honda will be more reliable than the Ford but on par with the Sentra.

    I like hatchbacks, but this one is very uninspiring [aesthetically] and performance wise will pale by comparison.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Posts: 2,228
    I'm happy Honda brought back the Civic hatch, but its design is a mixed bag. The huge headlights need to go and I absolutely hate the shifter location. I don't want my hand up in the air everytime I want to shift! Put the darn thing in between the seats where it belongs. At least the rear and side view of the car is nice, especially the two big chrome tips and the big wheels. Anyone else see a familiarity to the Golf in the rear? I also have to commend Honda on finally giving us what we want: a hatchback that is NOT barebones transportation!
  • Car designs take a few years to hit the market. The focus was being designed when the Civic hatchback was still around. Therefore, it is Ford that copied the Civic design, not vice versa. I do agree, however, that they could have made it more unique. And that colour......ughhhh!
  • liljonsonliljonson Posts: 109
    I have to say that the civic si isn't the best looking car, its pretty ugly, but it will be a great performance car with plenty of kits. lets just hope some of the body kits will fix some of the ugliness so when we some on the road that are hooked up from the outside it wont make us throw up but from the engine aspects, i think this car will be one of the fastest in its price range, now lets see if that holds true. And talking about suspension....ARE THE SERIOUS?!?!?! no double wishbone???
    I don't know wats happened to honda lately but the only cars i don't hear complaints about is the s2000 and the prelude, other than that i heard the new hondas are not worth it but i don't know that since i have never driven one =). is it true that their quality is quickly going down??
  • tgo63tgo63 Posts: 16
    I cannot understand one thing, most of car-lovers think about BMW as an ultimate driving machine. It does not comes with double-wishbone suspension. Also I believe the cost of maintainance on WRX will be much higher in a long run then on the civic. WRX is a limited production vehicle and its turbo engine will require extra care and won't last as long as a non-turbo one. In MHO the front of WRX looks awesome, but the rear end sucs. If money were not object I would just get M3, but since my budget is tight I will be happy with Civic si. If I had more money to spend on the car I would go with WRX, but for me civic will be a better value in long run. Right now we own y2k accord and 98 escort both with 5 speed tranny and looking for escort replacement.
  • mdrivermdriver Posts: 385
    Imagine that! BMWs don't use double wishbone suspension, but are considered the best handling cars. There are also some Chryslers which have double wishbone suspension but would never be regarded in the same league as a BMW. Honda did such a good marketing job on the wishbones, that it now can't shake that image. Maybe we can put to rest the double wishbone debate.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    wishbone2001 -

    But, as I already pointed out, the old Civic design doesn't look like a Focus. So I don't see how Focus ripped it off. If this new Si design was circulating before the design of the Focus, then I could see your point. But it wasn't.

    Its not unusual for a car company to see a design doing well in the market (the Focus) and copy it to compete in that market. Like Markwanc said, he likes the Focus, and therefore likes the Civic. That is what Honda is shooting for.

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • hoanvthoanvt Posts: 8
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The 2002 Si looks awesome!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    I'll let those pictures do all the talking.

    Personally, I think they're both ugly (actually, all 3 if you count the echo).

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • liljonsonliljonson Posts: 109
    Yea its true that the double wishbone suspension is sticking with honda. I can't imagine a honda without it. THe beauty part, i think the car isn't great looking but it is pretty cool looking, it makes me want to know more about the car. The car doesn't look aggressive but with the SI v-tec backing it up, think it has a good reputation going for it. The stick is in a wierd place but people have told me that its better so i guess honda is trying to reclaim their rightful place as #1, they've got to do something, their cars are getting boring.
  • image

    image

    I see family resemblence...

    no unnecessary creases on the body side, smooth fenders, elongated roofline, rear reflectors on the body, and roof tapering to the rear.

    CX
  • wordman93wordman93 Posts: 36
    torque will this thing have? I doubt that it will be one of the fastest cars for around 18k if that's what the price will be. Especially with VW upping the power on their 1.8t models. Why didn't Honda throw in a few more ponies?

    I can only see the picture of the Focus! WUZ UP WIT DAT!?
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    The most unfortunate thing about the Honda Si is the Acura RSX. Honda wants to make sure that the RSX Type-S is a better performer than the Civic in the American Market, as a result the Civic only gets the RSX base engine and a 5 speed manual. Still the new Si should have considerably more torque than the last Si and so should be able to out perform it. In addition it will have Antilock breaks. Still with all the competition in the pocket rocket segment, Honda may have to improve the car substantially if it wants to gain any visiblity in a tight market...
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 28,807
    OK. I have to say I see both now. The nose is definitely from a Focus. The windows and roofline are very much like the Civic you show.

    But, one point to your comments, there ARE creases on the body sides (refer to the 3rd pic in this discussion if you can't tell by the reflection in the pic you posted).

    I gotta admit, though, that profile shot does make it seem a bit more attractive. That is, until I see the front, then I'm irked all over again. ;)

    '07 ML63, '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 53-car history and counting!

  • mdrivermdriver Posts: 385
    The price should be higher than $18k, since the 2000 Si was that and had no ABS or side air bags. Honda doesn't give something away without a price increase. I suspect it will be closer to $20k. That's pretty close to a Golf GTI which has more useable torque and side curtains.
  • sunilbsunilb Posts: 407
    the problem with Honda getting rid of the double wishbones, is that their cars are FWD.... and this is the same reason why BMW can have macpherson struts up front: their cars are RWD, thereby reducing the pressure on the front wheels to steer as well as power the car. So, I still think the lack of 'bones on their civics is a cost move.
  • I predict the 2006 civics will come with torson bar front and trailing beam rear suspension.

    why? because in 1984, the McPherson struts were removed to maximize the interior space and lower the front end on civics.

    CX
  • rmtraderrmtrader Posts: 30
    The one thing offsetting the performance of the GTi 1.8T is weight. This thing is a porker. The Civic should come in at under 2500 lbs.
  • ejonavinejonavin Posts: 36
    If the new Civic platform retained the double wishbone in the front, and is less rommy, and got worst crash test results... would people still complain? My guess is YES. You don't get somethin gfor nothing.

    Besides, the hype if stupid.. the worst thing about the new suspension isn't the front... but the bouncy rear wishbone suspension.
  • bill_1bill_1 Posts: 97
    There seems to be almost a cult regarding wishbones and handling... Yep the BMW has rear wheel drive, but it is hardly the only car with front struts that handles as well (or in the case of the BMW better) than the Hondas with the wishbone suspension. Volkswagen has used them for years, and often has gotten great handling out of them (admittedly the current generation is tuned a bit softly). The biggest loss of the Wishbone frontend is to the tuners who like to lower their cars... that is definitely harder with struts.
  • sarahvtecsarahvtec Posts: 10
    Why is it that Americans ALWAYS get the short end of the stick when it comes to performance? I've been anxiously awaiting the Civic Type R's arrival in the US since its 1998 inception in Japan and still no luck. All we seem to get is an under powered SI while the rest of the world enjoys the thrills of true performance, being the Civic Type R. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Honda finally decided to resurrect the SI in 1999 and again in 2002 but that's little consolation. Not only does the Civic Type R look better but it handles better as well. C'mon Honda, at least give us the option of custom ordering one since they are in every country except the U.S. Also, I agree the 2002 Hatchback looks terrible (like a Ford Focus) but the Civic Type R tries to remedy this with a stylish body kit, grey headlight housing, mesh grille, race seats, massive brakes, killer suspension, etc. What's not to like? Okay, the HUGE headlights have to go but other than that it's stunning! Any ways, I hope your listening Honda or anyone for that matter. Please bring the Civic Type R before God takes me from this place... Thank you
  • liljonsonliljonson Posts: 109
    yea i learned to deal with the power aspect of this country. the guys who make the rules in this country (the car guys, i don't know wat they are called) are a bunch of babies. we get overpriced cars and we can't do nothing about it. oh well, i'm happy with the cars that come in this country because they still pretty cool.
  • sarahvtecsarahvtec Posts: 10
    You raise some very valid points. Hatchbacks don't sell well in America. That's why coupe's rule our roadways. This being true, Honda is said to be importing only 12,000 Si hatchbacks next year. A limited number for sure so it will be interesting to see how well they sell. I still argue they should have brought the Civic Type R in its place. Especially if they are looking to contend with the Nissan SE-R, Mini Cooper, Subaru WRX, VW Turbo Beetle, etc. I'm sure all of these cars don't face as harsh of emition standards overseas but that is beside the point. If they can import a WRX and Integra Type R then a Civic Type R shouldn't be an issue. Go ahead and tone the engine down a little. At least we had the chance to own one. I too agree that Honda probably thinks just because it's labled a Honda people will buy it and for the most part, that's true...at least in America. you see, Honda is not as big a seller overseas as they are in the states. Perhaps that's why they are cheaper in other countries. I dunno. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm happy to see someone is listening to me rant & rave...
  • liljonsonliljonson Posts: 109
    yes i like ladychoas's answer too. thank you for educating me a little more.
  • sunilbsunilb Posts: 407
    the problem is that if you are looking for a sub-$20K pocket rocket you are left with:

    1- Focus SVT (170hp, 140lb-ft)
    2- VW GTI 1.8T (170hp, 150lb-ft)
    3- Sentra SE-R VSpec (180hp, 180lb-ft)
    4- Protege MP3 (140hp, 140lb-ft)
    and...
    4- Civic SI // Acura RSX (160hp, 130lb-ft)

    What's the advantage of the SI?? Too little, and too late. It's sad that Honda brought this over only b/c of the competition... and still didn't make it all that competitive.

    Honda is one of the best engineering companies in the world, I think they could have made the necessary adjustments to take care of emissions.

    Plus, they would have had to do very little to keep the body moldings and nicer brakes. (ABS is finally available, though!)
  • sarahvtecsarahvtec Posts: 10
    That's my point exactly! The Si is too little too late. 160HP is becoming more and more the norm this century. Thus, the Civic Type R would have been a worthy adversary. At last count it was pumping out an amazing 185HP out of 1.6L! The 2002 Si is a 2.0L pumping out 160HP. What happened? Bigger engine and I-VTEC but less HP. Either way, A Type R version would have made all the difference. Come to think of it, I think the U.S. and Canada are the only countries with an Si. So why spend all the extra R&D for two countries when you could just bring the norm, Civic Type R, to our soil? Sadly, there is little hope for a Type R anything these days. The RSX is supposedly not getting a Type R version until 2003. Utterly too long to wait and what's with giving us a RSX Type S? Just bring the Type R and stop teasing us Honda.
  • pks1pks1 Posts: 32
    should be making about 210hp according to the technology Honda uses . The previous si had a 1.6
    160hp engine thats 100per liter. If you take that and * by a 2.0L engine its 200hp. C'mon honda can pump out 200hp easily out of a 2.0 look at the s2000 , its 2.0 - 240hp. I think Some kind of stupid regulations in the USA want to keep the Japanese from getting americans out of business. The rest of the world get the awesome gas saving high powered cars , America gets the awesome gas saving cars. Lets face it if [non-permissible content removed][anese models were her in the USA then the American automotive market would be going downhill.
  • my 99 si got stolen. since there is no such thing as a 2001 si in the us, i got the 2001 subaru rs couple to replace it. when i saw the link for 2002 si, i got excited. i would be more than willing to trade in my rs and get an si. HOWEVER, WTF IS THAT? it's butt ugly. I WANT TO BUY A HONDA, yet they're driving me away with this crap. the hatchback looks hopeless and there is no coupe. i think honda is resting on its laurel right now and competitors are coming out of the woods.
    maybe i should just wait another 20 years(if i live that long) and get the honda civic si hovercraft with turbo booster and optional mounted twin laser cannons :)
  • sarahvtecsarahvtec Posts: 10
    Trust me, "I feel your pain". I am a coupe lover as well. Although, I would be willing to to buy a hatchback if and only if, it was a 2002 Civic Type R (Geneva Auto-Show). You see, they have always been hacthbacks so I could make the compromise for the additional HP, stiffer suspension, racing seats, aero kit, etc. You bring up a good point about the hatchback looking but ugly. I agree! It appears Honda has relinquised their design team to the Europeans. That's why all 2001+ Honda's look like VW's. Just look at the rear mounted antenna. If that's not European influence I dunno what is. Even Honda of Japan's website makes mention of this. Their new slogan is, "We can change - new monoform design". In fact, they don't have many coupes for they are considered girly cars everywhere except in America - go figure. Thus, no coupe Si for 2002. Sedans and hatchbacks are all the rave overseas. So if you dislike the 3DR hatchback then stay away from the 5DR version! Why didn't you buy a WRX? Hovercraft with turbo booster and optional mounted twin laser cannons huh...I can't wait!!! *haha*
  • the reason why i didn't buy the wrx is the same reason why i won't buy the 2002 si, they're both ugly. i test drove it and like it, but the only thing it has over the 2001 rs is the horsepower and torque. the 2001 rs looks great and if you take the leather seat package, the cheap interior feeling goes away instantly. i'm not much into racing and i don't care for "my car can go 0-60 in .0005 less seconds than your car can" stuff. fun to drive + comfort = uncle scrooge taking out wallet. i got the 99 si because it's fun to drive, not because it can accelerate fast in straight line. a few months ago before my si was stolen, some dumbass in another si pulled up to the other lane and wanted to race me. i was looking at this moron wondering what is trying to prove, his si is faster than my si?
  • sarahvtecsarahvtec Posts: 10
    Once again, I agree! The redesign of the Subaru's are just as bad as the Honda's. I thought 2000 was going to usher in some awesome looking cars. Oh well, maybe they'll learn but I somehow doubt it. As far as not buying the WRX, you're a stronger person than I - the WRX would have been my only choice. Ugly as it is they finally brought a top of the line car from Japan! No more wishing an RS was a WRX. The same can be said when they brought the Integra Type R to the states. Now they need to import the Mitsubishi Evolution Lancer and Nissan Sylvia! Yeah baby! Sorry to hear about your Si. I also own a 1999 Si but have been very lucky only to get an emblem stolen (if you call that lucky). It sucks but what can you do. Can only protect your car so much. In any case, I'd definitely get rid of it if Honda brought the Civic Type R. Until then, I'll continuing customizing my Si to be the baddest "H" car around. Regarding the street racers, ladychaos is right for I too get fools always wanting to race me. Sometimes I oblige but never to the point where it's going to endanger myself or the public.
  • i guess you're right in that having an si will brand a certain stereotype on you. don't get me wrong, i'm down with people who enjoy their car and like to modify/enhance it. i don't see the difference between someone who overclock his computer with someone else who turbo charge his car. they're both utilities and the owner should be able to do whatever he wants to with it without other people giving him crap. with that said, however, i can't help it but notice an increasingly trend of hod rodders acting like hoodlums and punks. i don't think it's that bad to accelerate fast once that green light hits and see what your car can do but it's unnecessary to try and run down everyone on the road to prove you got the best car. it's not like there is a law that states you can't act with class while driving one of these cars. while i believe these people comprise of only a small percentage of all hot rodders, it still pisses me off because they give the rest of us who enjoy these cars and conduct ourselves professionally a bad name.
  • pere_ubupere_ubu Posts: 10
    Agreed that replacing the wishbone up front with MacStruts is no big loss unless you're heavily into tuning your car. After finally getting a chance to drive some previous generation Civics that did have the front dbl wish, I can now say that my '01 Civic coupe EX - with dbl wish in the back and struts up front - handles just as well, if not better. Looks like Honda/Accord thinks the same, b/c the Acura RSX (based, actually, on the '01 Civic coupe) is also going to have MacStruts up front with double wish in the rear, just with firmer stock-tuning.

    I also see a lot of people throwing HP and torque numbers around as if Honda is cheating it's customers out of much-sought-after speed. You have to figure in the weight of the car when talking about speed, and how responsive the tranny is mated to the engine before you can jump to conclusions about which car is faster based just on the numbers. I mean, my EX is listed as 127 max HP, and only 117 lb/ft of torque, and it STILL accelerates only a tad bit less than my friend's Audi A4. And I've got an automatic...!

    Still though, couldn't Honda have come up with a more unique design than "Focus ZX3, part deux"?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 20,345
    Some will like it and some won't.

    I will hear things like..." You would think Honda would have...." " I don't like the shifter, colors offered, etc etc etc.

    And...they will be impossible to keep in stock!
This discussion has been closed.