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Comments
For future reference, look for a direct link to the Honda Civic Owners Club in the additional Resources on the left side of the page. Happy Motoring!
Revka
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Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
Honda's assertion is that most consumers will swap out the tires and wheels right away, so why put anything better on.... what kind of logic is that??
[notice that Nissan, Mazda, and VW all offer better tire/wheels on their econo-sport offerings]
The more I think about it, the less I buy the "well they're going to change the rims anyway" argument.
Outside of their Type-Rs, Honda tends to skimp on both of these items. Don't they [Honda] know that other manufacturers are offering cars in this category??
If Honda had to keep the price of car down, they could have saved a bundle by not using unique steering setup for the Si (regular Civics use power steering pump, not electric steering and Si is the second production car in the world to use variable gear steering system) and go as far as making moon-roof standard. There are more ways to keep price down than size of wheel.
If I'm correct, the Si is using P205/50/R15 tire size, and that means overall diameter of the wheel (including the rubber) is only 23.07"! Wheel size affects overall gearing of the drivetrain. The smaller the wheel, the shorter the gearing gets. Compared to 25.31" wheels on RSX, and assuming that the Si uses the same gearbox as the base RSX, the Civic will have 10% shorter overall gearing. This will mean that the Si engine will rev higher and faster. It may not be cosmetically appealing, but it would multiply the torque better. It is one of those compromises, style or performance. BTW, the 2002 Civic Type-R wheel size comes to about 24.61" with its 17" rim and lower profile tire.
So, does that affect 0-60 time? If it affects gearing, it is going to affect all acceleration times. So, it may not be as much as getting away with for Honda, but about what others need to do to be competitive.
How bad is not having 17" wheels? If its made an option any serious buyer would always buy them.
IRS:
Does it mean that these cars cannot handle well? I don't think the handling differences are huge.
Don't forget that you can use the 15's as winter rims if you plus size in the aftermarket; it would be harder if a larger sized rim were standard.
I'm sure they will be available as option, if not as an upgrade. If I were to buy a car and wanted different wheels, I would prefer to get something after a good deal of research, not from the limited options that an automaker provides which are generally for cosmetic purpose only. From Honda, I would probably prefer to get the old ITR 15" wheels which are quite likely the lightest in business and perform exceptionally well with performance rubber. But then, it won't be 17".
IRS:
Does it mean that these cars cannot handle well? I don't think the handling differences are huge.
The differences may not be huge, but then, higher end cars don't come without IRS. Costs? Remember I pointed this out against your comment on cost cutting ideas, and this is definitely one of them, if only one of those hidden things.
Anyhow, this won't change anything.
So, what else are people going to cross-shop this with?
VW GTI/Focus SVT-- questionable reliability (though, I do like the GTI)
Sentra SE-R -- personally, I didn't like this car when I test drove it
Others??
Automobile mag just had a comparo w/ these vehicles, and liked the SVT the best then the GTI, and then the Si (followed by the SE-R and MP3)
But then, I would have to go out and compare these cars in person to make any kind of judgement. I still believe that Si would have more tuning potential than SVT with minimum effort, the Honda having a less stressed engine, and possibly a tranny and stock components that can take a lot more abuse.
Not trying to be jerk, just wonder the reasons why for your statement.
Also, there's info on the car at http://www.vtec.net
I love Hondas - I've had two hatchbacks and a CRX. I think I'll pass on this one, tho. It really does look like the Focus - which is fine if you're a Ford, but I'd expect more from Honda.(I'll probably go drive the thing, of course.)
Anyways, Japanese cars are so 90s. I like the Euro cars much better these days. :-)
*zooms off in new VW*
I was also wondering if Honda dealers are putting people on waiting lists for this car and if they are requiring deposits. If they do ask for non refundable deposits and I cannot test drive it I will probably go with another car even though I have test driven an RSX which should be close to it.
I did say I could be wrong.
Honda certainly does have a lot of worthy competition out there. I just don't happen to think that anything Korean is in that catagory.
However, time certainly changes everything and this could well change.
I know this and can only hope the management at Honda continues to build quality product that will keep them on top.
If this sounds like arrogance then I have been misunderstood.
http://www.vtec.net/news/items/959.html
Revka
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Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
1. Needs more body stiffness. This would improve the "solid" feel of the car and is what I believe causes the most creaks and squeaks. Not that the car is made of jello -- and it is way better then the 86 Accord hatchback I use to have.
2. Slow steering.
3. Needs more low end power! Notice most when starting from a dead stop going uphill.
4. Thin paint and sheet metal.
I think the alloy wheels that came with the car are fine, but the stock Michelin all season tires were crap - especially in the rain. When I replaced them with Toyo Proxes T1-S rubber (same stock size -- 199/55 R15), the car improved tremendously. These tires utilize 95% of my Si's capability. Also, I noticed that the new Si doesn't have wishbones all the way around. I don't care for mods, but I know that the wishbones provide a good combination of ride and handling. Is the setup on the new Si going to be better?
Yep it's so mediocre that it was near the top in sales last year. I guess all the people who bought it must not care about quality.
Wheels: 15x7 Kosei K1 Racing wheels (approx. 13 lbs--your stock Si wheels weigh something around 15-16 lbs) $139 each (tirerack.com)
Tires: Depends on what you need as far as treadwear and what weather you need to drive in. Kumho ECSTA are about $62 each and are a great tire for the money (with very good treadwear). I would then consider the Bridgestone RE730, higher grip $94 each or $79 each for 195/55/15. Above that, you are looking at about $120 per tire with the Bridgestone Potenza SO3 and Toyo T1-S.
Rear Sway: Mounting components from http://www.geocities.com/beaksproducts
and the bar and bushings from http://www.ahmotor.com/performancedivision/index.html
should be less than $200 total (I have this mounting kit and sway on my 98 Civic hatch)
Good luck with what you decide to do
Must be registered to view. It has the color, some specs and other details. One of the most interesting things is about the equipment level. I remember previous Si bashing because of absence of ABS (in USA). Now, Honda has not only added ABS, but EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) is standard too.
The steering is electrically powered (not pump, I hope the results are seen as lower drivetrain losses), and uses variable gear ratio system (continuously varies the steering gear ratio).
The car seems to be geared really short (based on assumption that it uses similar gear ratios as base RSX but with a shorter final drive at 4.765:1 compared to 4.388:1 in the RSX). Engine has lower compression (9.8:1) just like I assumed earlier, and optimized for regular fuel.
I believe there are five exterior color choices.
The car is equipped with a few things that will go unnoticed in such comparos, may be until you go out and check one out yourself. No other car in its class comes standard with electronic brake distribution, and there is only one other production car in the world that comes with variable gear steering system, so there are some unique features on the inside, as well as electric steering. The question would be, how to harness those strengths? Remember, the Si is no Type-R, but designed with aftermarket potential. Wait and see. The first thing I would do to the car is look for a supercharger, improve suspension and get some performance rubber, and there you go, perhaps a $25-26K hot hatch, but it could be worth it if you're really into it.
They practically invented this category, and have now handed it off to others.
I still dislike the taller & narrower profile of this Si/RSX platform that Honda is using. Seems like a big step away from "sporty".
Just my two cents.
The RSX is taller (~2.5") and *wider* (~1") than the third gen Integra, and the new SI strongly resembles previous Civic hatches, like the 4th and 5th gen. You just haven't seen a Civic hatch in a while... or you're too used to slammed "tuner" cars.
lngtonge18:
As far as the new Si's 0-60 times, I'm not surprised. I'll bet the Si has gotten much larger and heavier since 92. Even my 00 Si I bet does 0-60 times only in the mid to high 7's despite the published 7.2 sec (maybe on a sticky track with a cool breeze behind you). My questions are.. does the 02 Si use regular gas - does it really have more noticeable torque?
From what you said, I would also be very disappointed in the tire selection, but the choice must have been made for the masses.
I still think it's too bad that Honda is moving more towards the mainstream with this Si... regardless, I don't understand how a new iteration would be introduced that's slower than it's predecessor and the competition. Granted, the reliability and resale of this car will exceed both the Focus and GTI but that seems to be it's only saving grace.
Perhaps if they bring over the CTR, as Motor Trend has alluded to in their latest edition....