Actually, the Golf/GTI has a slightly higher resale than current Civic models.
Reliability of the 2001 Civic has been about the same as the Focus and GTI according to Consumer Reports.
The electric steering in the Si has not been very well received by those who have driven the car.
One can apply mods to any car. The Focus is the new car to mod now, not the Civic as much. The aftermarket will have a field day with the SVT. Why spend several $k to mod a Civic when you can buy the WRX which will still be faster.
So where does this leave the Si? Behind the competition. Worldwide, the Focus is THE hot hatch (and maybe the GTI too). It's a shame that a basic Focus will still probably out handle the Si, nevermind the SVT. And how embarrasing to drive off the lot in a new Si with tiny 15" rims when everyone else fits 17" with high performance tires.
I can understand saving some money on tires and trying to make the car more appealing to more people, but at least put on 16" performance all season tires. The Michelin Pilot XGT H4 or V4 would have been a much better choice then the crappy touring MXV4. Touring tires aren't meant for performance at all and this car is supposed to be a performance model right?
robertsmx: I'm not entirely for sure, but I believe the GTI includes electronic brake force distribution with its Bosch ABS system. I know my mom's 01 Audi A4 has it with the same engine and ABS system. I'd rather get a car ready to go right out of the factory, not something that is going to cost big bucks to upgrade.
princeman: The 02 Si takes regular gas, which is definitely nice. It did gain 156 pounds over the 00 Si, but it also saw a 20% improvement in torque, which should offset the weight gain. In other words, it should have been faster then what it was. C&D believes the loss in forward motion is due to the lack of the high rpm rush of speed that the old engine had. It does supposedly have a noticeable improvement in everyday smooth power delivery.
lngtonge18 I'd rather get a car ready to go right out of the factory, not something that is going to cost big bucks to upgrade. Me too! But some people like to get project cars. Wouldn't that be a reason why Honda would plan on selling less than 5% of Civics in Si trim? As far as stock performance goes, Civic Type-R would be it. I hope it gets here, even with European spec (200 HP instead of 215 HP that it has in Japan).
it should have been faster then what it was. We would expect it to be faster, but that doesn't seem to be Honda's focus with this Si. The gearing is too short even for 6800 rpm redline, and that requires two shifts to get to 60 mph (and that would add 0.2-0.4 seconds to typical 0-60 run).
at least put on 16" performance all season tires. I would rather see them using performance rubber on the same 15" rims than go for a larger wheel size. Cosmetics is alright, but this car should do more than lug around extra unsprung weight.
mdriver The electric steering in the Si has not been very well received by those who have driven the car. I've not driven the car myself, but Honda uses electric steering on three cars besides Si in USA... NSX, S2000 and Insight. And one of the advantages to having it instead of the conventional power steering pump is that there is no power drain from the engine, hence lower losses.
seminole_kev I think if you go into the $25-$26K range, I'd go pick up a WRX hatchback. Well, it is not about you obviously. I would pick up $23K RSX-S myself over Si or WRX/wagon simply because that is the car I like. So it is not about me either. Like I mentioned earlier, there are people who do more than drive around.
You are referring to the Koni Adjustables (aka "Yellows"). They run about $520 for a set but are the best struts that you can get for the money (but are expensive). Also, they come with a lifetime warranty and can be rebuilt over and over again for a relatively cheap price. I personally got my Tokico Illumina Suspension Kit ($535) because I was not convinced about how good the Konis were. The kit comes with struts AND springs which are matched very well together. Right now, my car handles perfectly for my current skill level. If I were you, I would go with the Tokico kit (www.coximport.com--that is where I got mine, best service and prices) as you plan to daily drive your car. Definitely consider getting springs and struts at the same time to save hassle on the install and make sure to get an alignment right after. The good thing about getting wheels in your situation is that you should have no problem selling your stockers if you choose to as they are a pretty popular wheel. As far as brakes, get Brembo OE rotors (cheaper and better than Honda rotors, same size though) and a good street pad (AXXIS Metal Master--Coximport also carries these). You can also get some stainless steel brakes lines to improve brake feel and help with fade (lightning motorsports--search for them). Once again, with the tires (tirerack.com, good service, prices) I would either go with the Kumhos or the RE730s, depending on your treadwear needs and how much you want to spend.
>>>They (Honda) practically invented this category, and have now handed it off to others.<<<
Not to start TOO large an argument here, but the Mini (esp. the Cooper model) DID invent this category. If you want a more modern context, the category was RE-invented for "modern" times by the Rabbit-based GTI. The Civic Si came along, oh, three or four years after. As badly as Honda appears to have dropped the ball with the new Si, I would say VW has done a greater disservice to the now-legendary GTI name.
Good points about the GTI losing more of its past rep than the Si. I am looking forward to the Civic Type-R coming stateside to make up for the Si's debut. Actually, once you think about it, the Si needed to be made the way it was made in order to provide two definite choices for buyer once we get the CTR. On the inventor of the hot hatch: VW is seen as the inventor because of its hatchbacks (beginning in 1983) that had ideas of performance. The Mini was made as an econobox and was only hot-rodded once people realized its potential given its handling dynamics and light weight. The idea of the hot hatch (with some performance from the factory) orginated with VW.
The Mini Cooper was a factory hot-rod, based upon the Mini, when it was discovered that the seemingly mundane family car had potential as a performance car. Something that it definitely was, with numerous wins at the Monte Carlo Rally, among other accolades and honors.
But, you are right, the "hot hatch" category, by name and as generally known today, was invented by VW... I just threw in the Mini because it was the originator of the entire category of FWD cars with transverse engines and sensible packaging. The point really was that the Civic wasn't the originator of the category (and I have an '86 Si sitting about ten feet from me, so the car is definitely not alien to me).
honda definitely did not invent the catagory but did have great success once they got into making "hot hatches." I guess someone COULD say that they "practically invented" it. I have no interest in arguing either way...good discussion, though.
that was a good history lesson... and, yes, I'm glad I put "practically" in my wording since from my perspective, Honda appeared to have made the after-market for hot hatches as big as it is now.
Anyhow, today I got a chance to skim the C&D article... the most interesting thing wasn't the article itself, but the sidebar about the CTR and VW-GTI [25th edition] making their way state-side... this will definitely make things "hot" once again. Though, while it does appear that VW has gone w/more luxury-oriented cars, if these two cars are priced within 10% of each other-- I'd be tempted to go with the VW. I'd be willing to give up some performance for some niceties.
I think it's fair to say that the level of performance, driving fun, and quality is so high in new cars in general, you really can't go wrong either way. Both cars really are such good pieces, I find it hard to believe that either one wouldn't bring an ear-to-ear grin to anyone who could fog a mirror.
The VW does indeed have a nicer interior... It also has more room (this, I admit, is largely subjective), and Chicks Dig It. Well, more so than the Civic.
The Rabbit debuted in the USA in, oh, 1976 I think... At least as a 1976 MODEL. I might be wrong about that... Now the GTI, which I presume you were REALLY referring to, was introduced to the USA as an '83 model, but a year earlier in Europe.
Now the CRX was introduced to us as an '84 model... Though in two versions. One was the "sporty" one and the other was the "HF" model, which was a fuel economy champ. Primary difference was the engine, but I think both were considered to have great handling. I think '86 was the first year of the Si model. My family has the CIVIC Si of an '86 vintage. I believe that from the front seats forward it is identical to the CRX, but from there back it sprouts a rear bench seat and a somewhat ungainly-looking back half instead of the CRX's hatch and rear parcel shelf. Weighs about the same, has the same drivetrain, and the same wheels and tires. CRX with extra seats.
The first (1973?) Civic (CVCC) was also a hatch, but yes, the first hot hatch from Honda arrived in the form of CRX in 1984. Even in non-Si trim, CRX could be considered hot hatch.
>>>Even in non-Si trim, CRX could be considered hot hatch. <<<
I don't think that's accurate, as my understanding of the hot hatch/pocket rocket category is that they were four or five-seaters. Think GTI, Civic Si, Mirage Turbo, Omni GLH, Escort GT, etc... I think the CRX was considered to be more of a sports car, at least that is my recollection. If need be I can pull out my old car mags and see how it was categorized at the time.
to me "pocket rocket" and "hot hatch" are two different things. To me a pocket rocket could be any small car that is surprisingly fast, and ideally, would be affordable. Hot hatches are something along the line of the original GTi or maybe back to the mini-cooper. I think a hot hatch should be a sporty version of a regular, utilitarian hatchback. The CRX doesn't fit in this group because it wasn't a regular people hauler hatch back.
For example. I consider the Toyota Celica (with the 180hp engine) to be a pocket rocket, but not a hot hatch, because it's not really a people mover. I know everyone will have their own take on it, but that's how I see 'em.
Using a pre-existing definition of "hot hatch", it has to have had at least the basics of practical transportation... Any car whose original intent was to just be economical and could carry more than two people would count... Like hotted-up versions of the Rabbit/Golf, Mirage, Escort, Omni, and ultimately the Civic.
So a CRX doesn't count, since it's a two-seater. A Civic DOES count, since in theory at least, it can hold 4 or 5 people.
As for "pocket rocket", I think that basically means a car that is small and faster than one would expect... But wasn't intended from the drawing board to be a sports car. I think the CRX was designed along the same lines as that which was intended for, say, the Fiero. It got approval as a low-cost "commuter car" variant of an economy car, but was ultimately produced with both that and a sporty variant in mind.
Now using my (subjective) definition(s), the 240Z is NOT a pocket rocket. It is a sports car... That is what it was designed to be, and that is what it was. Later 4-seater Z cars are not hot hatches or pocket rockets either, because while small, fast, and hatch-equipped, they are still based upon sports cars.
Anyhow, my next car is narrowed down to a Civic Si, RSX, or should I feel like not being cheap... A4 1.8T Quattro.
I like the Si for the hatch's utility, and for the appeal of easily maneuvering in the city. But I'm 30, dress conservatively, and detest subwoofers. Is this, then, the car for me??? ; )
interesting.... I'm in the same boat (almost)-- I'm looking at this car and the GTI.... or possibly the G35 (Infiniti-- if I feel like splurging). I had a '99 Si which was stolen from me last October, so I'm hesitant to get back into a car that kids like to rip off (I'm 30 y.o. as well). Plus, this car appears to be slower than the previous model and has a less sophisticated suspension.
Granted, the GTI has the least sophisticated suspension ever, but the car is powerful and really nice inside (contrasted with the Si's interior). Of course, reliability also becomes an issue with the VW.
Eludwig, I am not so sure that owners of the Civic or the RSX are going to appreciate being called "cheap", if one can make the assumption that you would attach the same stigma to them that you were apparently going to attach to yourself if you didn't splurge for the Audi.
And to answer your question, I think you are well within the age group most likely to buy the Civic Si. If you don't put a cold-air intake, Kumhos on silly chrome wheels, or ridiculous graphics, you aren't likely to be associated with the teen scene... Which seems to be your REAL concern (see below).
I am curious what you have against subwoofers, saying you "detest" them? Do you have a problem with high-quality sound reproduction? I gather by your description of yourself you detest kids who turn their subwoofers up, not subwoofers themselves.
If you don't want to have even the slightest association with those darned kids, maybe the RSX or the Audi are better choices for you... but but unfortunately, you will find that the A4 1.8T has a subwoofer, as does the RSX Type S. Guess you're stuck with the 'regular' RSX or the Volkswagen you mentioned.
When I used the term "cheap" I was referring to my history of being very careful (and smart) with my finances, like many Honda owners. Big deal.
In Western WA, "Si" and "R" on Hondas is often correlated to illegal racing, car theft, and annoyingly loud music. And despite your opinion stated as fact, it's a secondary concern compared to the Si's relatively cheap interior, high insurance rates, so-so brakes, and snobby dealerships. I remain interested in popular perceptions, however.
Subwoofers are falsely associated with "high-quality sound reproduction" in cars. Given large wavelengths and road noise at cancelling frequencies, high-quality car audio remains a far-fetched dream. And while I appreciate your concern regarding the RSX's and A4's implemtations of subwoofers, they would go unnoticed as I prefer to listen to FM radio. Unlike those driving the majority of Honda Si's and R's I see/hear/feel go by...
So, again, it is the kids and their subwoofers you don't like, since the statement of opinion you posit masquerading as fact that subwoofers are "falsely associated with 'high-quality'sound reproduction in cars" and "high quality car audio remains a far-fetched dream" shows that you have some irrational dislike of high fidelity car audio, based upon the Si's and the Type R's of the world (or at least YOUR world) booming in your window when you are sitting at a light.
I would go along with the first assertion, since the very presence of a subwoofer doesn't necessarily mean that a system is high quality, but the second statement is preposterous. There are many, many STOCK automotive audio systems that are exceptional, and with enough reserves of money, you can make a car system that will equal any reasonable home system... Even without a subwoofer. One of the finest car audio systems I've heard cost about $1500, including installation, and didn't have a subwoofer. The ever-present background noise in a moving car (among other limitations) means that you always have a less-than perfect listening environment in an automobile, but to call a top-rank system anything other than high-fidelity is just plain wrong. If you think otherwise, you haven't heard a really good system.
The subwoofers installed by the factory in the cars mentioned will be part of a system to supplement the bass, not rattle their headlights out of alignment. To equate the sub in an Audi or the small one in the spare tire well of an RSX to the dual 10-12 inch subs found in a street racer's Civic is both unfair and unfounded.
>>>But I'm 30, dress conservatively, and detest subwoofers. Is this, then, the car for me???<<<
>>>In Western WA, "Si" and "R" on Hondas is often correlated to illegal racing, car theft, and annoyingly loud music. And despite your opinion stated as fact, it's a secondary concern compared to the Si's relatively cheap interior, high insurance rates, so-so brakes, and snobby dealerships. I remain interested in popular perceptions, however.<<<
The second quote, of course, is from the second post. Almost totally different from the first. I can only respond to what you post, and I don't know how I was supposed to assume that you had problems with the second batch of issues (all valid issues of course) when the first time round all you complained about was the subwoofer... Which, by extension, you complained about AGAIN in the second post (i.e.-annoyingly loud music), so don't pretend that I made something up in my post. I was right the first time, as you point out so eloquently FOR me in your own post... "I remain interested in popular perceptions, however"... Meaning, clearly, you don't want to be associated with bass-addled teens driving slammed Civics.
So... Case closed. Don't buy a Civic... Don't know why you would even consider one considering all the bad points you mention.
On car audio, it's clear what you define as exceptional I brand as so-so. And to me and every audiophile, the listening environment is a critical part of the system.
My first and second quotes regarding Si drivers obviously support one another based on psychographics and demographics. It isn't complicated- trust me my friend.
Now that I've ended our chat, I agree that the Si or any other cheap "hot hatch" doesn't suit a 30-year-old professional.
I think you need to decide what you want in a car. Are you married? any kids? If so then you'll need back seat access. either a four door or those trick seats in the GTi. Do you drive with spirit, or like a kid who just got his/her license? Then maybe a car thats tuned from the factory. You listen to FM radio, so audio is obviously not important. I am in your age bracket and bought my 94 escort GT( Mazda 323;)) in 96 and that is a fun car that is not too much to get me in trouble ( read rapped around a tree). Think about what you want, and share your thoughts.
I'm a 30+ year old professional who drives a 00 Civic Si as a second car - my wife drives a CR-V. I bought it because it was relatively cheap to buy and drive and it adds fun to my commute (60+ miles a day - more when I take the "back roads"). The car has been perfect for me - and maybe I'm part of the market Honda intended the Si for. A subwoofer in a car does improve the sound experience not necessarily just for the better bass, but also allows for a clearer midrange and high-end. Especially in a car more power and lees distortion is needed for the midrange to overcome the background noise - and yes it will never sound as good as in a quiet room. But as an audiophile you already know that.
I like sports sedans too, but I must not fit into your demographic.
I am a 33 year-old professional, and while I love sports sedans, a "cheap hatch" best fits my needs right now. After 15 years of hot-rod sedans, I decided to make a change... I am glad that elduwig has been kind enough to point out the error of my ways, as I now know that no cheap or hot hatch suits my needs. You will, however, need to supply your own subwoofer.
I am also very happy to find out that I am not an audiophile, a misapprehension I have been laboring under for about twenty years now. I guess the elaborate and carefully-chosen A/V system sitting at home is wasted on me because I like "so-so" automotive hi-fi systems... Anyone who can find their way to my house is free to take my home system, since I am sure it's only so-so. Bring a van, since no adult audiophile would possibly have a hatchback.
Just thought I'd share some info-I wrote to the President of Honda USA repeating the various concerns people have expressed in this forum about the new Honda Hatchback--I was disappointed to get back a form like letter signed probably by some Generation Y underling. I urge everyone on this forum to flood Honda with what you want in the new hatchback--perhaps they will get the message by weight of numbers!
I am curious to hear/see what this form letter said.
These days I wouldn't expect anything BUT a form letter from any large company. I sent a letter, by actual mail, to JetBlue complaining about an issue I had with them when I flew on their airline last month... partially about what I perceived to be some lax security methods, which you'd figure would be kind of important these days, and all I got was a chain-letter response. Go figure.
So what were your complaints, and what was their response? I'd be curious to see what they had to say to you.
why Honda doesn't offer a Civic 5-door\non Si 3-door or even, if they're brave, the Jazz version. Maybe they couldn't meet the production demands. Still I think they're lagging behind in a growing market that they already have the weapons to compete in.
Though historically not big sellers in North America, I think it's fair to say that hatchbacks are enjoying a strong resurgence. There sure are a lot of them all of a sudden... Honda's Si, 3 & 5-door Focii, Mazda's Protege 5, the M-B hatch, even the Lexus IS300. It seems that there's a market and Honda is largely abandoning it... Seminole is right, they have the equipment, they should offer the product.
I'm a 35-year-old accountant. I've got both a '90 crx si and a '02 MB C230. That's 2 hatches: does that mean that I'm totally out of whack? Why do you have to label people? I buy hatches because they're very practical, and tend to not be as stuffy as sedans on the inside. They're also generally cheaper, which to me is a good thing. I heard that Honda will be bringing over the Si R in a couple of years, which I hope is true.
As far as expecting a personalized letter from American Honda, give me a break. That's way too unrealistic. The Si will only have the side impact airbags as options, right? Why would they change things? It's way cheaper to restrict options and lose a couple of possible sales than to try to be all things to be all people. They're in this to make money, not solve world hunger.
Ranald, Fit/Jazz would fit in the economy sub-compact category, and is priced quite a bit lower than Civic in Japan. So, it could be offered with a starting price of about $10K where it would be quite competitive. It is only slightly smaller than five door Civic hatchback, weighs about 2200 lb. and has a good engine (1.3 liter SOHC iDSI, 8-valve I-4) delivering 86 HP @ 5700 rpm, 88 lb.-ft @ 2800 rpm, offered with CVT. On gas mileage scale, it would sit between Civic HX (36/44 mpg) and Toyota Prius (52/45 mpg). Stream on the other hand is almost like a small version of the first generation Odyssey, and would be a good addition, but would carry a price tag closer to $16-$20K, not bad.
Hey, how about bringing all three over here... Jazz (10-15K), Stream (15-20K) and Avancier (20-25K). ;-)
When I started buying Hondas shortly after their 2nd hatchback, I got a personalized letter when I made suggestions--it's not too much to expect one since they used to do it all the time (clear through 2000!) Now Honda has decided, apparently, not to really listen to consumers requests concerning the new hatchback. Very disappointing--they're starting to act like FORD or GM!
The Civic hatch was always a low-volume seller in the US, so Honda figured they didn't need the car in this market. It was a very vocal minority that convinced Honda to import the newest hatch. Unfortunately, they recognized the strong demand for 3-doors kind of late in the game. Remeber, the current plan is to import only 10,000 Si's --- just a drop in the bucket in terms of Civic sales.
You can, however, blame Honda for not bringing over the Type-R instead of this weak little doorstop we currently have. Didn't they figure that the people who buy these cars want them to go, stop and turn with authority? Dumb move, Honda.
The rumors about the ctr coming here are starting to get almost believable. But, I think that the most important thing is that the platform will be available. The aftermarket can take care of its shortcomings. My one hope is that the limited qualities that are available will be bought by people who realize what they are getting who will make smart mods (ie, no 3" drop with 20" chrome wheels), and I'm sure that there will be CTR swaps within 6 months.
Comments
Reliability of the 2001 Civic has been about the same as the Focus and GTI according to Consumer Reports.
The electric steering in the Si has not been very well received by those who have driven the car.
One can apply mods to any car. The Focus is the new car to mod now, not the Civic as much. The aftermarket will have a field day with the SVT.
Why spend several $k to mod a Civic when you can buy the WRX which will still be faster.
So where does this leave the Si? Behind the competition. Worldwide, the Focus is THE hot hatch (and maybe the GTI too). It's a shame that a basic Focus will still probably out handle the Si, nevermind the SVT. And how embarrasing to drive off the lot in a new Si with tiny 15" rims when everyone else fits 17" with high performance tires.
robertsmx: I'm not entirely for sure, but I believe the GTI includes electronic brake force distribution with its Bosch ABS system. I know my mom's 01 Audi A4 has it with the same engine and ABS system. I'd rather get a car ready to go right out of the factory, not something that is going to cost big bucks to upgrade.
princeman: The 02 Si takes regular gas, which is definitely nice. It did gain 156 pounds over the 00 Si, but it also saw a 20% improvement in torque, which should offset the weight gain. In other words, it should have been faster then what it was. C&D believes the loss in forward motion is due to the lack of the high rpm rush of speed that the old engine had. It does supposedly have a noticeable improvement in everyday smooth power delivery.
I'd rather get a car ready to go right out of the factory, not something that is going to cost big bucks to upgrade.
Me too! But some people like to get project cars. Wouldn't that be a reason why Honda would plan on selling less than 5% of Civics in Si trim?
As far as stock performance goes, Civic Type-R would be it. I hope it gets here, even with European spec (200 HP instead of 215 HP that it has in Japan).
it should have been faster then what it was.
We would expect it to be faster, but that doesn't seem to be Honda's focus with this Si. The gearing is too short even for 6800 rpm redline, and that requires two shifts to get to 60 mph (and that would add 0.2-0.4 seconds to typical 0-60 run).
at least put on 16" performance all season tires.
I would rather see them using performance rubber on the same 15" rims than go for a larger wheel size. Cosmetics is alright, but this car should do more than lug around extra unsprung weight.
mdriver
The electric steering in the Si has not been very well received by those who have driven the car.
I've not driven the car myself, but Honda uses electric steering on three cars besides Si in USA... NSX, S2000 and Insight. And one of the advantages to having it instead of the conventional power steering pump is that there is no power drain from the engine, hence lower losses.
seminole_kev
I think if you go into the $25-$26K range, I'd go pick up a WRX hatchback.
Well, it is not about you obviously. I would pick up $23K RSX-S myself over Si or WRX/wagon simply because that is the car I like. So it is not about me either. Like I mentioned earlier, there are people who do more than drive around.
Not to start TOO large an argument here, but the Mini (esp. the Cooper model) DID invent this category. If you want a more modern context, the category was RE-invented for "modern" times by the Rabbit-based GTI. The Civic Si came along, oh, three or four years after. As badly as Honda appears to have dropped the ball with the new Si, I would say VW has done a greater disservice to the now-legendary GTI name.
-SHOV6
On the inventor of the hot hatch: VW is seen as the inventor because of its hatchbacks (beginning in 1983) that had ideas of performance. The Mini was made as an econobox and was only hot-rodded once people realized its potential given its handling dynamics and light weight. The idea of the hot hatch (with some performance from the factory) orginated with VW.
But, you are right, the "hot hatch" category, by name and as generally known today, was invented by VW... I just threw in the Mini because it was the originator of the entire category of FWD cars with transverse engines and sensible packaging. The point really was that the Civic wasn't the originator of the category (and I have an '86 Si sitting about ten feet from me, so the car is definitely not alien to me).
-SHOV6
Anyhow, today I got a chance to skim the C&D article... the most interesting thing wasn't the article itself, but the sidebar about the CTR and VW-GTI [25th edition] making their way state-side... this will definitely make things "hot" once again. Though, while it does appear that VW has gone w/more luxury-oriented cars, if these two cars are priced within 10% of each other-- I'd be tempted to go with the VW. I'd be willing to give up some performance for some niceties.
The VW does indeed have a nicer interior... It also has more room (this, I admit, is largely subjective), and Chicks Dig It. Well, more so than the Civic.
-SHOV6
Now the CRX was introduced to us as an '84 model... Though in two versions. One was the "sporty" one and the other was the "HF" model, which was a fuel economy champ. Primary difference was the engine, but I think both were considered to have great handling. I think '86 was the first year of the Si model. My family has the CIVIC Si of an '86 vintage. I believe that from the front seats forward it is identical to the CRX, but from there back it sprouts a rear bench seat and a somewhat ungainly-looking back half instead of the CRX's hatch and rear parcel shelf. Weighs about the same, has the same drivetrain, and the same wheels and tires. CRX with extra seats.
-SHOV6
I don't think that's accurate, as my understanding of the hot hatch/pocket rocket category is that they were four or five-seaters. Think GTI, Civic Si, Mirage Turbo, Omni GLH, Escort GT, etc... I think the CRX was considered to be more of a sports car, at least that is my recollection. If need be I can pull out my old car mags and see how it was categorized at the time.
-SHOV6
For example. I consider the Toyota Celica (with the 180hp engine) to be a pocket rocket, but not a hot hatch, because it's not really a people mover. I know everyone will have their own take on it, but that's how I see 'em.
Hot hatches are all pocket rockets. All pocket rockets are not necessarily hot hatches.
Example... The Celica is a pocket rocket, not a hot hatch.
Similarly....
A hot hatch must be a hatchback, though all hatchbacks are not necessarily hot hatches (even if they are pocket rockets).
Example, the Celica is a pocket rocket and a hatchback, too, but it's not a hot hatch.
Any questions?
-SHOV6
Pretty much what you said. At least that's my take on it.
So a CRX doesn't count, since it's a two-seater. A Civic DOES count, since in theory at least, it can hold 4 or 5 people.
As for "pocket rocket", I think that basically means a car that is small and faster than one would expect... But wasn't intended from the drawing board to be a sports car. I think the CRX was designed along the same lines as that which was intended for, say, the Fiero. It got approval as a low-cost "commuter car" variant of an economy car, but was ultimately produced with both that and a sporty variant in mind.
Now using my (subjective) definition(s), the 240Z is NOT a pocket rocket. It is a sports car... That is what it was designed to be, and that is what it was. Later 4-seater Z cars are not hot hatches or pocket rockets either, because while small, fast, and hatch-equipped, they are still based upon sports cars.
Boy this is getting complicated!!
-SHOV6
In the pocket rocket discussion (post# 1), you'll see a few vehicles that Edmunds' Editors consider to be pocket rockets. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
Anyhow, my next car is narrowed down to a Civic Si, RSX, or should I feel like not being cheap... A4 1.8T Quattro.
I like the Si for the hatch's utility, and for the appeal of easily maneuvering in the city. But I'm 30, dress conservatively, and detest subwoofers. Is this, then, the car for me??? ; )
I had a '99 Si which was stolen from me last October, so I'm hesitant to get back into a car that kids like to rip off (I'm 30 y.o. as well). Plus, this car appears to be slower than the previous model and has a less sophisticated suspension.
Granted, the GTI has the least sophisticated suspension ever, but the car is powerful and really nice inside (contrasted with the Si's interior). Of course, reliability also becomes an issue with the VW.
What a dilemma.
And to answer your question, I think you are well within the age group most likely to buy the Civic Si. If you don't put a cold-air intake, Kumhos on silly chrome wheels, or ridiculous graphics, you aren't likely to be associated with the teen scene... Which seems to be your REAL concern (see below).
I am curious what you have against subwoofers, saying you "detest" them? Do you have a problem with high-quality sound reproduction? I gather by your description of yourself you detest kids who turn their subwoofers up, not subwoofers themselves.
If you don't want to have even the slightest association with those darned kids, maybe the RSX or the Audi are better choices for you... but but unfortunately, you will find that the A4 1.8T has a subwoofer, as does the RSX Type S. Guess you're stuck with the 'regular' RSX or the Volkswagen you mentioned.
-SHOV6
In Western WA, "Si" and "R" on Hondas is often correlated to illegal racing, car theft, and annoyingly loud music. And despite your opinion stated as fact, it's a secondary concern compared to the Si's relatively cheap interior, high insurance rates, so-so brakes, and snobby dealerships. I remain interested in popular perceptions, however.
Subwoofers are falsely associated with "high-quality sound reproduction" in cars. Given large wavelengths and road noise at cancelling frequencies, high-quality car audio remains a far-fetched dream. And while I appreciate your concern regarding the RSX's and A4's implemtations of subwoofers, they would go unnoticed as I prefer to listen to FM radio. Unlike those driving the majority of Honda Si's and R's I see/hear/feel go by...
Perhaps you should settle with an Altima and I with a Passat. That would make things easier : )
I would go along with the first assertion, since the very presence of a subwoofer doesn't necessarily mean that a system is high quality, but the second statement is preposterous. There are many, many STOCK automotive audio systems that are exceptional, and with enough reserves of money, you can make a car system that will equal any reasonable home system... Even without a subwoofer. One of the finest car audio systems I've heard cost about $1500, including installation, and didn't have a subwoofer. The ever-present background noise in a moving car (among other limitations) means that you always have a less-than perfect listening environment in an automobile, but to call a top-rank system anything other than high-fidelity is just plain wrong. If you think otherwise, you haven't heard a really good system.
The subwoofers installed by the factory in the cars mentioned will be part of a system to supplement the bass, not rattle their headlights out of alignment. To equate the sub in an Audi or the small one in the spare tire well of an RSX to the dual 10-12 inch subs found in a street racer's Civic is both unfair and unfounded.
>>>But I'm 30, dress conservatively, and detest subwoofers. Is this, then, the car for me???<<<
>>>In Western WA, "Si" and "R" on Hondas is often correlated to illegal racing, car theft, and annoyingly loud music. And despite your opinion stated as fact, it's a secondary concern compared to the Si's relatively cheap interior, high insurance rates, so-so brakes, and snobby dealerships. I remain interested in popular perceptions, however.<<<
The second quote, of course, is from the second post. Almost totally different from the first. I can only respond to what you post, and I don't know how I was supposed to assume that you had problems with the second batch of issues (all valid issues of course) when the first time round all you complained about was the subwoofer... Which, by extension, you complained about AGAIN in the second post (i.e.-annoyingly loud music), so don't pretend that I made something up in my post. I was right the first time, as you point out so eloquently FOR me in your own post... "I remain interested in popular perceptions, however"... Meaning, clearly, you don't want to be associated with bass-addled teens driving slammed Civics.
So... Case closed. Don't buy a Civic... Don't know why you would even consider one considering all the bad points you mention.
-SHOV6
My first and second quotes regarding Si drivers obviously support one another based on psychographics and demographics. It isn't complicated- trust me my friend.
Now that I've ended our chat, I agree that the Si or any other cheap "hot hatch" doesn't suit a 30-year-old professional.
A sports sedan on the other hand...
Are you married? any kids? If so then you'll need back seat access. either a four door or those trick seats in the GTi.
Do you drive with spirit, or like a kid who just got his/her license? Then maybe a car thats tuned from the factory.
You listen to FM radio, so audio is obviously not important.
I am in your age bracket and bought my 94 escort GT( Mazda 323;)) in 96 and that is a fun car that is not too much to get me in trouble ( read rapped around a tree).
Think about what you want, and share your thoughts.
I like sports sedans too, but I must not fit into your demographic.
I am also very happy to find out that I am not an audiophile, a misapprehension I have been laboring under for about twenty years now. I guess the elaborate and carefully-chosen A/V system sitting at home is wasted on me because I like "so-so" automotive hi-fi systems... Anyone who can find their way to my house is free to take my home system, since I am sure it's only so-so. Bring a van, since no adult audiophile would possibly have a hatchback.
-SHOV6
President of Honda USA repeating the various concerns people have expressed in this forum about the new Honda Hatchback--I was disappointed to get back a form like letter signed probably by some Generation Y underling.
I urge everyone on this forum to flood Honda
with what you want in the new hatchback--perhaps
they will get the message by weight of numbers!
These days I wouldn't expect anything BUT a form letter from any large company. I sent a letter, by actual mail, to JetBlue complaining about an issue I had with them when I flew on their airline last month... partially about what I perceived to be some lax security methods, which you'd figure would be kind of important these days, and all I got was a chain-letter response. Go figure.
So what were your complaints, and what was their response? I'd be curious to see what they had to say to you.
-SHOV6
As for your question about why Honda won't bring over the Civic 5-door, check out the profit margins on the new CR-V, and you'll find your answer.
-SHOV6
I think the Stream is a better bet. The Matrix/Vibe that everyone is so breathless over lately is just Toyota's response to the Stream.
Why do you have to label people? I buy hatches because they're very practical, and tend to not be as stuffy as sedans on the inside. They're also generally cheaper, which to me is a good thing.
I heard that Honda will be bringing over the Si R in a couple of years, which I hope is true.
As far as expecting a personalized letter from American Honda, give me a break. That's way too unrealistic. The Si will only have the side impact airbags as options, right? Why would they change things? It's way cheaper to restrict options and lose a couple of possible sales than to try to be all things to be all people. They're in this to make money, not solve world hunger.
Fit/Jazz would fit in the economy sub-compact category, and is priced quite a bit lower than Civic in Japan. So, it could be offered with a starting price of about $10K where it would be quite competitive. It is only slightly smaller than five door Civic hatchback, weighs about 2200 lb. and has a good engine (1.3 liter SOHC iDSI, 8-valve I-4) delivering 86 HP @ 5700 rpm, 88 lb.-ft @ 2800 rpm, offered with CVT. On gas mileage scale, it would sit between Civic HX (36/44 mpg) and Toyota Prius (52/45 mpg).
Stream on the other hand is almost like a small version of the first generation Odyssey, and would be a good addition, but would carry a price tag closer to $16-$20K, not bad.
Hey, how about bringing all three over here... Jazz (10-15K), Stream (15-20K) and Avancier (20-25K). ;-)
I didn't mean to suggest that Fit/Jazz was in
any way bad, I just think that Americans will
likely want something bigger.
2nd hatchback, I got a personalized letter when I
made suggestions--it's not too much to expect one since they used to do it all the time (clear through 2000!)
Now Honda has decided, apparently, not to really listen to consumers requests concerning the new
hatchback. Very disappointing--they're starting
to act like FORD or GM!
You can, however, blame Honda for not bringing over the Type-R instead of this weak little doorstop we currently have. Didn't they figure that the people who buy these cars want them to go, stop and turn with authority? Dumb move, Honda.
Are there any Civic owners/experts that could anwser a question for me?
I'm looking for a 92-95 Civic Si Hatchback with ABS. When did Honda offer or begin installing ABS on this model. Did ABS ever come standard?