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Comments
My goal in being here was to get some 'real world' take on the SI from folk with experience with the new SI.
As I keep saying, ain't nobody mentioned a car in the price range they'd want more, not even SI owners who've had problems. That's good enough for me, and I'm tickled pink.
Now, if I can get my insurance company to finalize my claim . . .
2003 Huyndai Tiburon V6 - $16,123
2002 Nissan Sentra spec.V - 16,491
including destination.
Another Sentra spec.V for $16,416
http://nissan.mossy.com/veh.asp?UntId=239644
The '02 leftover Focuses SVT were going as low as 15K a couple of weeks ago.
Are you really saying you'd pay $1100 more for a Huyndai or nearly $1500 more for a Sentra? No quarrel from me if that's your preference.
Why not sell it and get a new Si for $0-2000?
Is the new Si really that bad? Love the 2000!
I'd appreciate your input,
ydnaydna
I think I answered your question.
Are you really saying you'd pay $1100 more for a Huyndai or nearly $1500 more for a Sentra?
Why not? They score higher on the comparison tests. More fun to drive. Have better looks. Get bigger tires. LOL.
Everything looks just about right.
The Civic Si is not as desirable as the rest of the group. Therefore it must be discounted more in order to clear the dealer lots.
Market forces at work.
I think a better comparison for you would be to take the 03 Si and compare it to the 03 SVT, Sentra Spec-V, Tiburon V6, GTi 1.8T etc.
I mean it is not every day in the year Honda is desperate to get rid of the slow selling Si coz' buyers are buying competitors.
The GTi and SVT Focus would be perfect for many of us IF we think that those cars would be as reliable as the Si. Keeping in mind there are probably thousands of GTi and SVT Focus drivers who are very happy with their car. But a lot of my car buying decision has to do with that I feel comfortable with.
If I don't care about keeping the car beyond the warranty period, I'll be leasing cars and most likely I would be driving German cars. The feel is very different to me at least for cars in the $30k range. My comparisons are 01 A4 1.8T, 00 Acura 3.2TL, 02 2.5 X-Type. German, Japanese and British. All cater to very different buyers.
I think an Si buyer will likely to switch over to a GTi or A4 but not the other way round. When I frequent audiworld.com, a lot of us drivers of Audi A4, moved up from Civics, Integras, Preludes, Eclipses. And when we got fed-up with the dealer services, we buy Bummers instead (yeah, I purposely spell it with a u). I decided to go back to go back to a Civic, getting the cheapeast Honda I can live with. Thanks to the massive discount.
ham - I agree with at least part of what you're saying - we've got a quirky market. For me, though, that's not a down on the SI; it's an opportunity. Like you, too, I'd prefer to keep a car a good while.
My take is that Honda got cocky with the new SI - priced it a little high, produced too many, pointed it at market with 'big wheel' syndrome, and now needs to eat an over-large inventory. Thus, what they actually sell for makes the SI a bargain.
LOL, I cannot resist saying (yes, again) that no one, not one person amongst this bright group, has pointed to a car they'd rather have for the same money. The closest is vdap waffling on makes I wouldn't have (on reliability and resale grounds) with sales prices $1000+ higher.
ydnaydna - It hasn't escaped me, either, that a new SI can be had more cheaply than a used '99 or '00 model. Were it me, I'd keep the older one depending on condition and mileage, take care of it, and enjoy the earlier pay-off. I think the '99 and '00 are classics in the making - like the first years of Mustang.
Besides that, the sparse interior of the Integra and the Si is suppose to be more comfortable and quiet though mine is buzzing and rattling all over the place. I presume not more than the Integra.
I'm not bashing the Si, but it doesn't outperform its competitors, so its main advantages are reliability and quality.
If the extra 1k is a big deal, look at the base SE-R, which is definitely in the same price range, though it makes do with a 5 speed manual and doesn't get the big wheels and sticky tires.
I still think the current Si is a good choice for an inexpensive sporty compact.
Ok, I give you that. At $16k, there's probably not a competitor for someone who likes Honda to begin with and hates American (Ford), European (VW) and Koreans (Hyundai) make cars. But those who do not, will not buy the Si for $16k. Or $15k. These are the people who will not settle for a car that they see as a lesser car compared to say their VW GTi.
So, I say if you like Honda to begin with, a $15-16k Si is probably what you get if you don't mind the minivan lookalike Si which I happen to like. Function over style.
Ok, let me throw this out at you. Say the 02 Si stocks run out. We have only 03 Si and based on carsdirect.com using my zipcode, I'm looking at $18k.
Anyone can access carsdirect.com and their prices are fixed. So, as a basis for comparison, for $18k (or whatever your price comes out to be based on your zipcode), what else would you get for $18k?
2 scenarios.
Scenario 1: Assume all the cars will be as reliable as each other within the 3 year warranty (or 4 in some cases)
Scenario 2: Free for all
It really surprised me when Honda came out with the current mild version of the Si while all of their competitors were aggressively coming out with ever improving pocket rockets of their own. I was expecting something in the 180hp range, not a heavier, albeit torquier, 163hp.
-ydnaydna
I was wondering if anyone knew if it was possible to swap my exhaust from my 1998 civic ex to the 2002 civic si? I doubt it is possible, but I didnt know since it is just a catback exhaust. The exhaust is listed to fit in the 1992-2000 civic exhaust, but Apexi, the manufacturer, does not state anything about 2001+ civics or any other car 2001+ for that matter, on their website. It says it will work for "Civic Coupe 92-00 EX / Si, DX 92-95". I also have an AEM short ram air intake on the 1998 civic, but I figured because of the engine design on the 2002, it would not work out.
I also have a honda 6 disk cd changer from my 98 civic ex and wondered if I could just pull it out and put it in the 2002 SI? I also have a cassette deck, but would have to somehow spraypaint that silver to make it match the dash and since I dont use cassettes anymore, would probably just leave it in the car. Seems im going to get nothing for it when I trade the car in, so why the hell let them sell the car afterwards for more.
SVT is selling for $1.49K net of $2,500 rebate.
Hyundai Elantra GT lists ~$15.3K with sunroof, but can be had for $2K less net of $1K rebate (plus qualified buyers get 0% for 36 months).
Actually the Hy GT has scores high in 7 important categories.
1. Low cost to own (see above).
2. Low cost to operate over 5 years: According to Edmunds TCO = $.35 per mile.
3. Reliablity: very few, minor complaints posted for Hyundias after 2000.
4. Good dealership service: almost no complaints.
5. Practical: 4 doors, hatchback with hi content.
6. Does nearly everything very well according to Car & Driver (ranked # 2 small cars in Nov 02) & Edmunds Long term test. These were both the 4 door sedans, the GT should do as well or better with gas shocks & bigger sway bars.
The main thing the Hy GT lacks is a prestigous name & boy racer (dare I say "Rice Boy") image. True, performance is not quite up to other "hot hatches", but it does have comfortable, adjustable, leather seats, corners nicely & does 0-60 in 8.3-8.5 seconds depending on review. Plus for an extra grand For an extra grand one could improve easily improve the handling & 0-60 -- probably in the Si range -- with wider 15" tires, strut bar, bigger sway bars, low restiction induction & exhaust.
I've have had my share of Boy Racers including Mustang Mach 1, tuned Volvo 1800S, 92 Civic Si, and tuned Del Sol Si. Yes, they were fun to drive & turned heads! But in reality, I spend 98% of my time driving safely & sanely, thinking as much about gas mileage as how high my tach can spin. Perhaps I can't run with this crowd any more!
I started to look for a replacement for my Del Sol Si 4-5 months ago. I wanted something more practical and comfortable that was fun, yet inexpensive to drive. I also wanted to spend less than $7.5K. I could easily afford $30K+, but like the "millionaire next door" my personal stewardship principles prohibit that.
The 1st car I looked at was the Hy GT. I liked it a lot, but my wife panned it because it was a 4 door and didn't like the overall style.
So I started to look at the 02 Si & GTI. I love the comfort & performance of the GTI. The Si drives really sweet, though it is a stripper compared to the GTI & even the GT. But after 2 months of dickering, I am realizing that I ain't gonna get an Si or GTI for less than $9K. If I do, either on will cost $3-$5K more to own over the next 5 years according to Edmunds.
Yes Rivertown, when all factors are considered, personally, I would rather have the (gulp)Hy GT!
So, unless something comes along to significantly change my mind in the next two weeks, it looks like I may be driving the "lowly" Hyundai GT afterall. Now, if I can only convince my wife to ride in it!
Ok, IF no '02 SI's at 15K AND only '03 SI's at 18K? We ain't there, so it's hypothetical. Even so, I'd probably go SI over GTI, given my take on real world reliability and dealer networks (I know, you stipulated equal reliability. Assuming what I want to assume, LOL, I'll assume an S2000 can be had at Miata sticker, and buy that.)
I don't get the 'free for all' scenario; so, I don't know how to respond.
If I can't get the SI at 15K, I'll consider the SVT if it can actually be had for 15K. the write ups look great, though my take is that the quality/reliability issue is still iffy.
I haven't really given Hyundai serious consideration; memories of Hyundai's that look like crap after 3 years are still too clear in my head. To be fair, Hyundai quality could well have risen; and I'm overlooking a bargain.
Resale? I figure resale will stay about the same %-wise and considering age, providing one doesn't pay too much to begin with.
As for the changer ... Honda still sources head units from Alpine but not sure if they source the 02 SI's head unit from Alpine so again, check with the experts.
Watch out for that Hyundai and know that the 181HP advertised is only 170 ... that would explain why it's performance times were on par with the SI and slower than the SVT and GTI even though it has a V6.
I think I would take the 99-00 SI over the 02 if I didn't have to drive to work every day. The 00 SI isn't a bad car to drive in traffic but I always find myself magically drawn to the 5000 RPM mark when you can hear the cold-air intake sucking up air. It feels like it's on rails, and the interior has soft touch and the height adjustments on the seat. It's a really tough call between the 2 and had I not gotten such an awesome deal on the 02 I wouldn't have bought it because I liked my black 00 SI just fine. The blue 00 we bought was supposed to be mine but I could tell when I looked over at gee the first night we drove it home that I wasn't going to be driving it.
Honda has brilliant engineers behind them, and for saying that this new i-VTEC sucks are ignorant, as so am I, by not having a masters in engineering. Who are you to question their intellect?
I just think the best way to put it is, yes, it doesn't have the heart thumping kick the 00 SI has but its more hp, THE 02 SI IS THE GROWN-UP MATURED VERSION OF THE 00 SI. The 02 doesn't need the cry of the motor every time, The 2K2 SI knows it has the power, but its able to blow you away quietly and assertivly. I hope this puts this battle to rest and people realize they cant try to demote the proven ideas of Hondas techs.
I got my SI for 15k in STL, MO
Also, does any one know where to find a true short through shifter for the new SI not just brackets or pivot point crap
I'm guessing the '02-'03's have more unrealized potential, HP-wise.
The previous Si had DOHC VTEC, with the VTEC effect on both the intake and exhaust cams. Same HP output from a 20% smaller engine. It's a whole world of difference, in case you didn't know.
There's no "battle" on this point, as it goes without saying that the '00 Si spanks the '02 in every instrumented performance test of your choosing. Credit the engine and the more sophisticated suspension of the '00.
I guess it is fair, however, to say the '02 Si is the "grown-up[,] matured version of the the [']00 Si," since getting older in America invariably involves getting heavier, slower, and less stimulating.
rivertown--The K20A in the RSX-S/CTR has good, high-HP potential, but the lower redline and balace shaft in the Si mill seriously limit its buildability. It's not even a good candidate for turbocharging with the stock pistons, due to the high compression ratio.
Ok, I give you that. At $16k, there's probably not a competitor for someone who likes Honda to begin with and hates American (Ford), European (VW) and Koreans (Hyundai) make cars.</>
So, for someone who likes Honda and the style of the Si, will buy it. But for others who rather have a coupe or 4 door sedan, you have Proteges and Sentras. Not to mention Corollas, Saturns etc.
But if they are drawn to the HP, I guess Si will be it, since GTi is priced much higher. SVT Focus like a poster said has a rebate. But the recalls suffered by the earlier Focus models will probably deter buyers though the SVT has only 1 recall compared to 11 total for the earlier model Focus.
Btw, my question is not hypothetical. Let's say you want to buy an 03 Si now. Try going to the dealership and tell them you want to buy it for $15k or $16k. They'll laugh you off the lot. For the time being at least. When they realize it doesn't sell (I'm not sure if it'll sell or not), they'll be begging you to come in.
When I bought the 02 Si, I was told the 03 Si will be $1k to $1.5k more depending on which dealerships I went to and also how much the offering price on the 02 Si was. So, the 03 Si, I would say in the metro detroit area was around $17.5 to $18k back in Oct/Nov. I'm not sure what the pricing is but if I use carsdirect.com, it is $18k in my area code (at least for the time being).
As for the free for all, regardless of warranty, price, etc. just list the car that you want at $20k.
Unfortunately for me, I can't find one. My criteria has always been AWD, wagon/hatch styling, 240/250HP NA and all the comfort in the world (xenon, autodimming, homelink, leather, heated seats, moonroof, lighted switches etc.)
If only the Audi RS4 that is coming to US is in a wagon form and has decent backseat space and it sold for $25k, it'll be my car
I sound flip (and am); but my point is that, unbound by reality, wishing seems pointless.
"Let's say you want to buy an '03 Si now", what would you buy in the '03 SI price range? That is hypothetical now, unless answer options include an '02 SI and 1.5-2.5K in cash. I agree, though, we could well get to the point where an '02 SI at 15K isn't an option. I'll be bummed if I don't have an ins. settlement before that happens (another possible hypoothetical).
FWIW, I'm understanding the gripes about the '02-'03 SI. It's not the revy sports car the '99-'00 SI was. I agree with that take, whole heartedly.
Its just that this SI is my first new car . I wanted a used civic hb SI, at first this was my goal and after searching long and hard for a reasonable used car, my father, being a mechanic, said why trust some misallanious guys word, lets just spring for the newbie. I was thrilled we got in to test drive and I loved the bold inside design and obviousily the seats. I drove a little bit and then when I was searching for that VTEC feal, it wasnt there. So then I called my Boyfriend, who is also a michanic and an import fan( he drives a 96 integra gsr) and he came to that whole grown-up thing which put my suspisoins to rest , i was in a rush for a new car (my crx was totaled)so we did it. now as i look for other SI owners opinions all i find is negativity. Im fearing a bad perchase. Now my only refuge is the aftermarket sceen. which isnt much at all yet i need a brave soal with knowledge to help my see all the good in my car.
So, it was a joy for me to drive the 02 Si. Right now I shift at 4k RPM into 2 and usually 3.5-4k in the other gears. Maybe VTEC cars are wasted on me
Well, you might be lucky to find some leftover 02 Si when you get the settlement from the insurance. But if you do not have color preferences nor do you insist on 10miles or less on the odo. you might be able to find some 02 Si leftover. Obviously you can't go and buy the car now since you've no idea the outcome of your stolen 99 Si.
Oh yeah, if the 02/03 Si were in a coupe form like 99/00, I would not have bought it. I like the versatility of the hatch and style too over coupe. I'm sure I'm in the minority here. In that case, I probably would have kept my A4 or buy a Toyota Matrix.
I just think I screwed my self out of what I wanted (although I couldn't even find it).
And about the focus. all I have to say is its a FORD.
Can't we tell the world how much we love our cars. Plus the Lexus room is boring.
May I suggest you drive a GTI and see how it rides? Though I haven't driven a GTI but since it has the same engine as my previous A4, 1.8T, I think you'll love it. In the GTI (03, maybe 02 too), you even get 180HP compared to 170 in the A4 and in a much lighter body. Chip it and you are looking at 207HP. The interior is much nicer than the Si with lots more creature comfort things.
But you cannot compare it to the 02 Si since it is massively discounted. If you compare it to 03 Si and 03 GTI, you'll see the prices are about $1k difference (Si being cheaper). But when you put on a decent set of rims on the Si, the prices become the same and you'll see the VW having more than the Si.
I didn't get the VW coz' then I would have to deal w/ the same incompetent service dept. that I was going to for my Audi services. Also, I didn't buy the 03 Si. The 02 Si at the price I bought at was very attractive.
Which btw is exactly what you and anony are doing. Complaining about the Ford, Hyundai, Mazda, VW etc eventhough you both don't own them while praising the Lexus and Honda you both bought. I find that strange both of you talk bad about Ford and VW even when both of you have never own a Ford nor a VW product. Basically you research about problems people have and conclude that the cars are bad.
But some of us here do not bash the other car makers saying they are inferior to our car. We point out what we see as weaknesses to our own car hoping Honda will recognize them and change it in the future. Unlike the approach you and anony takes saying that's how Honda has done it in the past, so why change it? That's the way they design it to work and that's the way we should learn to live with it just doesn't fly with me and a few others here.
Btw, bashing is when you said the GTI was junkyard worthy. I've never said anything remotely close to what you say.
Unless of course if you consider what I said about the Si being low on HP and lousy tires on 15" rims as bashing.
Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
From what I understand, this engine opens up a lot on its way to 10,000 miles.
Cops recovered my '99 SI, stolen 2 weeks ago. Looked pro stripped to me, no hoses or wires cut. Most everything in the engine compartment gone; tranny gone; instruments gone; wheels and tires gone; floor mats gone; passenger side but not driver side mirror gone; inside door panels off but present. I didn't notice whether 'twas speakers or window motors they were after in the door. The car was found on a rural road just outside the city, sitting on 4 doughnut spares, like it had been towed. Bummer.
Insurance company is talking about trade-in value. Bummer.
How's that for a combo of white collar and blue collar crime? Hell, I respect the thieves more than I respect the insurance folk.
Did you have an alarm or anything on your SI?
The alarm didn't help a bit, my best guess because these guys were pros. But, then, I sleep soundly; and false alarms are common here. So, it may have gone off and gotten no notice before the thieves silenced it. No starter interrupter, which might have helped.
Yes, the upside is that I was insured. At this point, the downside is the claims adjuster.
All I can say is, "Aw, shoot!"
And cross my fingers about a reasonable insurance claim.