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But that would also kill the sales of quite a few of Subarus other models, I would presume.
Later...AH
thanks
Mike
Yes, the VTD can sense slip before it occurs with an infared device that allows it to monitor road conditions ahead. ;-)
I'm off to the dealer now to drive an auto WRX. Hope they don't mind if I get it muddy. :-)
Cool, I'm listening to the WRX commercial on the radio right now.
-Dennis
http://www.subaru.com/home/news/press_result.asp?inc=1&page=1
Also of note:
"Impreza sales were bolstered by the successful launch of the rally-bred 2002 Impreza WRX, accounting for 18,060 unit sales since its March introduction"
....or in conditions where the surface traction changes constantly and continuously, which is pretty rare in normal road conditions, even with snow. When one of the AWD systems (I will not name it) is "reacting" to situation #1, the new road condition - situation#2 - (which has a different traction need) needs a different response and when it starts reacting to situation#2, a 3rd situation comes that needs a new response...and so on....the system would never be able to complete even a single response, since the new condition needs a different response and it would be hopelessly lost, if you can follow my drift. It cannot react fast enough to even a single one of the previously mentioned fast changing conditions - in fact it could not complete even a single one of its "reactions" to the various situations that came up. You would not however face this in your normal commute, with some slippery conditions thrown in...the AWD would prove to be perfectly adequate in such a situation.
The "other" AWD system (which again I will not name) would have been brutally fast, rapid and direct through all the above mentioned situations, and would have come out smelling like a rose. In fact the driver would not even have known the hairiness of the situation, when equipped with the 2nd AWD system, due to the un-believable rapidity with which the system acted.
In the above mentioned fast changing situations, you may even be better off with a 2WD vehicle (When compared to the first AWD system equipped vehicle), since it is at the very least predictable....
Later...AH
Later...BH
Sure the argument that MT diehards will be the next generation of folks putting a rosy spin on how cars used to be, but we won't go without a fight!
As for the new crop of computer-controlled clutched automatics as I call them since they really aren't manuals, they still don't count. I was interviewed for a story on manual transmissions for Edmunds a looong time ago. If clutch control is gone, some of the fun is gone as well.
With all of the new vehicular control systems, cruise control that adjusts speed based on cars in front of you- the days of driver interaction are numbered. Enjoy it while you can!
Now for the WRX content. Make mine silver.
Make mine a manual,
-Beanboy
AH: your logic makes sense, except it seems to imply that both axles aren't getting power in the first place. That's not true - each axle gets probably about a net of 90-95 lb-ft of torque, and this is before any slip occurs. So if one axle slips, at least half of the torque is still being put down effectively even during the delay to transfer power.
Now, if this were a part-time system, such as the Ford Escape or Honda CR-V, that could be a problem. Only one axle gets power, and it would be slow to send power to the rear, perhaps too slow to prevent sliding off the road? Who knows. So it would be a much bigger problem if the system were part-time, and not 50-50 full-time.
-juice
Sometimes, it may not be a good idea to have 50% or more power on the slipping wheels since the slipping wheels are always powered ....even though as you said, you may be able to pull out of it (inspite of some heart-stopping moments when the vehicle grows squirelly) due to the 50% or so power (unless more has been diverted front or back in an earlier "reaction") on the non-slipping wheels !!
beanboy:
I know about what you say about Auto-manuals like the BMW SMG, not having as much fun as the human-clutch-operated manuals. The January 2002 issue of Road and Track has a detailed description of the BMW SMG, in which they describe the various shift modes in the SMG, including 5 completely Automatic modes (no intervention at all from the driver but with varying aggressiveness in the shift-pattern from A1 to A5) and 6 Sport modes which are pure clutch-less (internally there is a clutch but is invisible to an external observer) manuals. Some of the modes are very efficient and can shift way faster than a human can ever hope to. But as you said, the "fun factor" in working the clutch while shifting your own gears is lost. But as R&T says, "half of European and virtually all of Japanese and Australian M3" transmissions are fitted with the SMG Auto-manual (external-clutch-less-manual).
Later...AH
Let's not forget something here.
You have no, nil, naught, zero experience in driving a viscous coupling equipped Subaru in slippery conditions.
You're just so full of inaccurate information which you cannot back up with any facts or any real-world driving experience.
Do us all a big favor. Gloat all you want about the VTD, I know it's a great system. But please do NOT make any further VC comments because you do NOT know what you are talking about.
-Dennis
-mike
Later...BH
Anyway, I would opine that you enjoy your valuable purchase. I am sure it would be providing you a lot of pleasure as has mine been providing me. Every system has got its own pros and cons and being aware of the pros/cons is better than being in an ivory tower with the presumption that everything is perfect with what you have. For some people, the AWD system may be very important, while for some others, it may not even be an option when it is coupled with an Auto-transmission. Nevertheless, I would suggest that you enjoy what you have, with the awareness of its positives/negatives.
Take care,
Later...AH
When you say that a 2wd car is better than the VC system (and you have not owned one) then I wonder if you are on drugs or what!
But when you go back and read my post, it states:
In the above mentioned fast changing situations, you may even be better off with a 2WD vehicle (When compared to the first AWD system equipped vehicle), since it is at the very least predictable....
I had put the key words in bold in my above statement, so that you can gather the gist of what was tried to be conveyed. In other words, the above "predictable" should be read as "predictably bad in nearly all conditions, due to which you are always aware and prepared and you do not rely on an AWD system to take care of your problems and let your guard down".
In a different vein, did your delsol do so miserably ? Was the delsol not one of those little 2-seater Hondas with a mid-engine ? I could be mistaken, however. For the record, I have never ever really faced any big difficulties with my earlier FWD Integras etc., even though I have driven in pretty deep snowy conditions with them...they always stopped short and straight with ABS and good tires...no spinning, no sliding, not dangerous at all...rain did not even seem to bother those cars at all...it was just that I did not try to pretend to be a Mario Andretti, when conditions were bad !!
Later...AH
But in a forum populated with a lot of guys with one-sided views on things like transmissions etc., somebody has got to defend the underdog, especially if its solid virtues have been conveniently swept under the carpet, in the midst of a lot of chest thumping from the other side. And the best way to defend it, is by using facts, logic and plain conventional wisdom. If somebody were to logically explain something to me and prove something that I believed was correct, was in fact wrong, then I would give props to the guy, regardless of how much he may rub me the wrong way. But "logical explanation" is the key here.
Take care,
Later...AH
-mike
I realize this may not always be easy to do. But also keep in mind that responding to unwanted posts will only create more unwanted posts. In addition, Town Hall is a free service that is available to all individuals who agree to abide by our Membership Agreement.
As written in our agreement, "Town Hall welcomes all points of view on automotive matters." and "it is understood content within Town Hall is based on individual opinion and experience, which may vary significantly from one person to the next." You are of course welcome to take issue with someone's statement with civil/friendly debate.
Feel free to send me an email you have any further comments/questions about this. Thanks for your participation. And back to the subject of Subaru Impreza WRX Wagon.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
I came here looking for the experiences of WRX wagon owners, not a fight over the options a particular owner specified in their OWN purchase. Reccomending a particular option over another is just that, a reccomendation. Until you have walked in another person's shoes you can't possibly start to KNOW what's best for them.
Now, all of you who specified the extended armrest, step outside!!:)
Also, all "reality" is based on an underlying theory on which the engineers based their design intentions. No reality can defy the "laws of physics" or "conventional wisdom", much as we may want to believe otherwise. Also (as has been inculcated in me during my formative years), it is better to have a questioning and open mind, than a closed mind, since you will miss out on a lot of things otherwise and have a skewed view on a lot of things, which should otherwise be simple to comprehend.
Take care,
Later...AH
Anyone who doesn't like discussions about the Subaru's different AWD systems doesn't have to read them. It's a little different than debating politics.
-Dennis
Take care,
Later...AH
Mine is a manual tranny Forester L, with two open diffys (no LSD), splitting power 50/50 and using a VC to adjust if necessary.
(a) most of the time in snow, it simply does not slip. By default, mine is sending 40.5 lb-ft to each wheel (gross, less if you calculate net), and using gentle throttle and steering inputs means no slipping occurs.
Wanting to know more about how it will behave, I often "play" around in the snow, intentionally trying to get it to slip. What happens then? Well, if I apply too much throttle while going straight, usually all four wheels will slip and toss up snow. It's fun, and usually it still tracks relatively straight. If I apply too much throttle in a turn, the fun begins. It'll start oversteering just a tad, and kick out the tail. Just then, I can feel the power cycle forward, and the front wheels pull it out of the slide. The VC seems to take only a moment to act, and I've never "lost it" in a turn, it's always, always been quick enough to save me. This is despite my having a larger than stock rear sway bar, which creates more oversteer. The VC is still quick enough, despite my risky setup.
(b) in sand, pretty much the same thing, except it's much harder to get it to slip, because the tires sink in and bite down much more.
So, no practical need for more capability here. If all four of my wheels slip when I stab the gas in a straight line, I don't see how the VTD would behave any differently. And if it did, and only two wheels slip, you would actually end up with the "heart stopping moments" AH descrived earlier.
In a turn, I guess the VTD would act quicker and not let the tail get out so far, but if it's not too far that you "lose it", who cares? It would actually be less fun. I imagine perhaps the VTD would go into a FWD bias situation to prevent oversteer? I don't know.
Anyone else care to share their experiences?
-juice
-mike
The WRX has a rear LSD, so it would divvy the power on the rear axle.
-juice
-mike
I jacked up my Miata (rear viscous LSD) to test this, and it's cool. With both rear wheels in the air, you turn one rear wheel, and after about 1/8 revolution, the other wheels turns with it. It's really cool to see and feel.
Don't try this on a Subie unless you get all four wheels in the air, BTW.
-juice
Anyway, generalizing the concept to greater than 0 torque at one wheel but less than the maximum possible, that means that you won't get a side to side split of torque with an open diffy, but at least the tire oposite the spinning one won't overpower its mate, and more importantly you still have the center diff which will transfer the excess torque to the other set of wheels. At least that's how I understand it to work.
Torque will take the path of least resistance, so your points are valid.
But we've bounced back into theory, and I'd like to hear more about practical experiences. Anyone ever get stuck and wish for more traction?
-juice
Real world experiences? Totally agree with your synopsis. My experiences have been the same. Yes, some people like for the tail to get "happy". That's why the OB VDC models now come with a VDC off button.
edit: Been stuck? Nope. We got over 30 inches of snow last winter in my area. When I was recently talking with the owner of Flemington Subaru (Hunterdon county NJ) about the VDC, he said he has never been stuck either. He has been driving manual Scooby's since the BRAT.
-Dennis
-juice
-Dennis
Find the following quotes from my earlier posts (with bold portions for emphasis):
Quote1:
....or in conditions where the surface traction changes constantly and continuously, which is pretty rare in normal road conditions, even with snow.
Quote2:
You would not however face this in your normal commute, with some slippery conditions thrown in...the AWD would prove to be perfectly adequate in such a situation.
So as you can see, I did say that the AWD that you have should be able to handle these situations perfectly well. No disagreement there! Without an LSD, the AWD will not transfer power side-to-side (the vehicle spins the tires without going anywhere) however, especially if both the tires on the right side or both the tires on the left side are on a surface with no traction - again does not happen too frequently and would be very very rare.
Later...AH
-mike
-juice
Two observations:
- spinning all four wheels is way too easy with 227HP with even a light dusting of snow and RE92's. But the car shoots off like a rocket as the tires start to grab.
- the WRX is so easy to rotate at will (I have a wagon). It understeers at first with some noticeable plowing, but a quick stab at the throttle in the right gear will easily bring that tail around to compensate. Very cool. I wouldn't necessarily try this on a dry road but in the snow, it's repeatable and very controllable.
None of this proves anything but suffice it to say that the AWD system rocks. I can approach corners and steer out of far more quickly and with more control than any FWD car. It's fun and is very controllable.
With my wife's car (FWD), you have to coast around corners. Any throttle and say hello to the ditch next to the shoulder. In my Miata (RWD, rear LSD), it's even worse. Any throttle change, lift or press down, and you'll swap ends quicker than you can say "oops".
-juice
-Colin
I actually made a really dumb mistake a few weeks ago, taking the top down in cold weather. It would not go back up! Had to crank the heat and let the top warm up so it would stretch and close.
Never again below 40.
-juice
Can't wait until Whistler in Feb. Hopefully there will be some snow to drive through!
Stephen
Ross
Stephen
-mike
Maybe the 03 will get it so I won't have to worry about it. :-)
I've spoken to guys that run 34-36 psi's all around. My OBS is usually at 4 psi's (cold) above the recommendation on the door jamb sticker.
-Dennis
http://www.new-impreza.com/upgrades.htm
you can see the pic of one.
Stephen