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Comments
-juice
I guess the question would then come down to: Do you feel the looks and interior are worth the extra $2000, and what is your financial situation (is an extra $2000 a big stretch for you?)
Mama-mia.
-juice
I've just recently started using the A/C, and I noticed that the brake pedal will lose pressure whenever the compressor cuts off. The pedal will sink to the floor like when the ABS kicks in, minus the ABS reaction. This doesn't happen routinely, just have to be caught at the 'ideal' time which appears to be, when the compressor cuts off during application of brakes and 4EAT downshifts to perform engine braking. Nothing scary, as I've only encountered the quirk during stop and go traffic.
-Dave
-juice
B
-mike
Come to think, it does sink occasionally when already at a full stop too.
mike-
they must have changed something along the MYs. Did not notice this on the '98 OB or the '99 OBS.
-Dave
-mike
If your dealer won't sell at invoice then find another dealer -- I just bought my '04 wagon and all accessories at invoice and the dealer worked hard to make the sale happen. I used Edmunds to choose my options and get the invoice pricing on everything, made up an offer sheet listing the invoice price on everything and said that is what I want to pay for the car. He took the deal right away. Your dealer might not do this, but there are other dealers out there. Use the tools available to your greatest advantage and keep trying until you find a dealer / salesperson who will work with you.
Good luck! And remember, whatever you do, your going to wind up with a WRX!
-jim
We put about 400 miles on it this weekend (drove it home to Sacramento from Reno then took a trip over to Muir Woods north of San Francicso) and it's actually a pretty good highway car. There's a bit more road and wind noise than my Outback, and the ride's not as plush, but the handling and steering are super. I love it.
I considered the new Forester XT, and I really loved the low-end rush of power that it has compared to the WRX, but ultimately I wanted something sportier than my Outback, and the WRX delivers that in spades for slightly less money than the XT.
I'm looking forward to many thousands of happy miles with my new 'roo!
Brian
-Dennis
-juice
Congrats! Where did you buy your wagon and what color is it?
That must have been a hard decision to make over the XT.
You must have had some fun in the Marin headlands heading over to Muir Woods!
Ken
Color?...
any plans for hidden add-ons ;-)
-Dave
I started this search in hopes of getting a 2003 model (I prefer the old headlights and blue seats) but they are rapidly disappearing from dealers (only 2 2003 MT wagons left in NorCal). I drove to Reno to look at a used 2003 (yellow!) with only 4K miles on it, but when I inspected the car there appeared to be some damage to the front bumper (broken clips) and the front tires looked really worn for such low miles. The dealer wouldn't go below $23.5K on it, which about what I could get the new 04 for so I went with the new one. Also, I'm not fond of buying a used performance car...I'm too paranoid I guess!
Upgrade plans? I can't wait! Window tint is likely the first thing so I don't fry in the 105 degree heat. Also, 17" wheels and tires will probably go on this summer, and maybe a performance exhaust and a short shifter. I don't think I'll tackle any engine mods for the time being...maybe in a couple of years though!
The drive up the coast was FUN, but Sunday traffic kept speeds down in "minivan territory." Beautiful scenery, though.
Brian
Andmoon- how do you like the 20mm swaybar on you wagon w/ the 17" wheels?
My suspension upgrade path has been:
1) 20mm sedan bar (kept stock endlinks)
2) 17" Rota rims with Continental ContiExtremeContact 215/45s
3) Prodrive springs
#1: definitely reduced body roll quite a bit.
#2: definitely improved grip but left ride quality and body roll pretty much unchanged.
#3: not yet installed. I'll run them with stock struts and tops.
I was quite happy with the "bang for the buck" with the 20mm swaybar. The rims and tires also improve performance, but in a different way (improved cornering grip vs. less roll/less understeer). I'm hopeful the springs will reduce body roll even further.
How many miles have you put on the Contis, and what are your like and dislike 'bout them?
-Dave [ not talking to himself ;-) ]
I have about 3500 miles on the Contis. For my driving needs (my car's a daily driver, no track or autox), they're about perfect, especially for the price. I'm sure I would be even happier (in terms of performance) with a max performance summer tire like the S-03, but the Conti's tradeoffs are worth it for me.
Pros:
* no increase in noisiness vs. RE92s;
* no decrease in ride quality vs. RE92s;
* increased grip;
* noticeably stiffer sidewall when cornering, but not so stiff as to degrade comfort;
* gradual breakaway at the limit;
* handle rainy weather without drama;
* price;
* cool looking;
* no worries if I get my snows on too late in the fall or take them off too early in the spring.
Cons:
* they fall short of delivering the proverbial "on rails" cornering sensation.
I just checked inflation the other morning and I was at ~31-32 psi all around. I'm thinking of bumping this up to around 34-35 psi the next time I stop for gas, just to see what that does to the performance/comfort balance.
I'll stay tuned for your comments on the psi bump.
-Dave
Today, I put down a deposit for a 2003 Aspen White WRX wagon with auto. Accessories included are crossbar kit, armrest extension, compass mirror, cargo net, cargo tray and security sytem upgrade. Price was $21,000 + taxes, title & Doc fee(I let it slide as it was only $200). Out the door was $22,500. I thought I did well. Any opinions? It was hassle-free experience since I emailed my offer and it was accepted.
I can't wait to start driving it. Will probably pick it up later this week.
What should I inspect for before I drive it off the lot? ALso, how is the music system? All suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
You got a screaming-good deal on your 'rex. Enjoy and welcome!
jim
For "Christmas" I want to pick up a set of snow tires to go on the rims. I'm looking for superb snow / wet traction, a liveably quiet ride and decent dry pavement performance. Anyone have any suggestions?
Jim
They are supposed to have at least 80% of the snow traction of a dedicated snow tire and are excellent in wet weather also--very hydro-plane resistant.
Only drawback: Tirerack originally quoted me 19.5 lbs. per tire for the Conti 205/55-16. When I got them they weighed a whopping 22.5 lbs., at least a couple pounds more than the RE92’s they are replacing.
So if you are into reducing unsprung weight these tires are a little on the heavy side. Other than that, they are terrific.
-Colin
Take delivery on a sunny day, inspect everything. Have them agree to address even teeny-tiny issues before you accept it.
It should be clean, and have a full tank, too.
-juice
About the new RED color, well, it's not as nice as the burgandy/red of previous years. The 04 red is more "fire engine" red, which is fine, but I liked the other shade better I think. Java Black just might be my favorite color this year -- flecks of gold in the black look outstanding in the sun.
Brian
jim
Ken
SNOW: they are wonderful snow tires, far and away better than the RE-92's; the car will go anywhere, in significant depth of snow (I've driven through up to 6+ inches unplowed), and the stopping and turning capabilities are great, especially compared with the RE-92's. Plus they make a respectable showing on ice. I've never driven Hakka's or Bridgestone WS-15's and such; so it is certainly possible that the LM-22's may not be the match a more snow-oriented tire in snow/ice conditions but they are certainly competent.
DRY/WET: Again very good, although I noticed a bit less stopping power on dry roads when compared with the RE-92's. They handle well, and they're by no means uncomfortable or hard. (One thing some folks don't consider when thinking about winter tires -- any winter tire -- is that the rubber is formulated specifically to function better in cold temperatures.) At the same time they show no signs of being squishy or squirmy -- a complaint I've often heard about the snow-specialty tires. I've had these tires up to triple-digit speeds without incident or worry. My hearing is not the best so I will not comment on tire noise other than to say that they make a noticeable mild humming or whining sound; however it certainly is not outrageously loud, nor has any passenger ever commented on excessive tire noise.
I personally find the sound as reassuring as I find the boxer 'grumble'. No kidding. Once I was driving home from the airport in the rain; as we got further away from the city the temperature dropped and, you guessed it, the roads slushed up and the bridges turned to ice. I had just mentioned to my passenger that the roads looked to be freezing over when a Volvo station wagon slewed sideways across the road in front of us. Everyone up to that moment had been driving at 60+ MPH and so things got interesting fast. Cars started sliding all over the place as they went for the brakes. I picked a line through the mayhem, steered the Subie through it, and came to a stop beyond the reach of the spinning and sliding cars -- all done straight and true, with no theatrics. And with no particular driving skills either; I just steered and stopped. To me, that kind of performance in a situation like that is the very definition of "reassuring", and it's worth a heck of a lot to me. Certainly it's worth a bit of tire whine.
LONGEVITY: They've gone through two winters and approximately 20,000 miles. I expect one more winter from them. An item of note is that the center tread grooves are not as deep as the outer grooves. I suspect the reason is that when the tread depth gets too low in general they no longer function well in snow, and so the idea is to run the rest of the tire life out in spring/summer/fall. That's not atypical for winter tires, and it's fine by me.
rgds,
-wdb
That's why for years, Porsche used to make their lug nuts out of aluminum alloy-- to get as much weight off the wheels as possible.
I'll just have to toss out the donut spare and go on a diet to make up the difference. ;-)
I'm not exactly a suspension and handling noob, thanks. I still question that "math", but that's besides the point. The point was whether you-- or I for that matter-- could perceive or measure a difference.
The answer is no.
-Colin
The reason for this is because when you have a wheel/tire combo that weighs more, it has more rotational mass and hence higher inertia. It requires more horsepower/torque from the engine to get the car moving. It's as if the whole vehicle weighs more by a certain amount.
Ok, with 3 lbs. more on each corner, you are not going to notice the difference just driving down the street, but is the difference there? You bet it is! You might as well take a 40 lb. cinder block and throw it in the back seat. Same difference!
(BTW, the math on this is not mine. Ask the guys at tirerack about it or check out some technical posts on nasioc.com.)
This is why guys spend big bucks on SSR forged alloys that only weigh 11 lbs. per wheel as opposed to the 16.5 lbs. of the OEM wheel. When they also put on a lightweight tire like Toyo Proxes TS1 (18lbs.) they only have 29 lbs. hanging off each corner instead of 37.5 with the OEM setup.
8.5 lb. less weight on each corner means you’re saving the equivalent of 85-135 lbs off your vehicle. Instead of driving a 3165 lb wagon, suddenly you’re driving “the equivalent of” a 3050 lb. wagon.
Now there, I guarantee, you will feel the difference!
Wheels and tires
You can plug in the values for your own wheel/tire combo in the second column of the spreadsheet and see how it affects your chassis weight.
-Dave
I've read Dave Coleman's (Sport Compact Car) "tech" on wheel & tire weight and while I agree less is more, the math is totally bogus. SCC even did a test a while back but they didn't use the same brand & model tires on every rim size-- to be fair, that might not have been possible.
Buy tires based on handling and grip, not weight. Driver still matters 10x more than 3lb at a corner, spend less on fancy wheels and more on driving schools, track days and autocrosses. Of course given enough money, spend it on all of the above including wheels and who wouldn't like to burn up a set of Hoosiers every track day?
Weight is chiefly important in breaking. Handling second, acceleration third. Very distant fourth is top speed. And we're talking insignificant weights here, you want dynamics then only drive your car in anger with 1/4 tank of gas or whatever is the minimum to avoid fuel starvation with the dog-bone shaped tank in Subarus.
-Colin
(only has about 5k technical posts on nasioc.com)
Unsprung weight is a very important component of vehicle dynamics; but then, so are things like front/rear weight distribution and polar moment of inertia. It is true that lighter wheels and tires will change a vehicle's feel, and if someone is spending money on improving the performance of their car, wheels and tires are a fine place to spend it -- for a lot of reasons, unsprung weight being one of them. But that is not the same as saying that using a wheel that weighs a few lbs. less is the equivalent of lightening your car by almost 10 times that many lbs.
"Unsprung weight" includes everything that is not held up by the springs when the car is sitting normally (on its tires, on the ground). Lower unsprung weight is beneficial because there is less suspension mass to move, meaning that the suspension can respond more quickly to changes. The further from the suspension mounting points, the greater the effect; all other things being equal, lighter wheels/tires will be more noticeable than, say, an aluminum suspension piece. A car with lower unsprung weight will stay planted better through the dip in the middle of that happy-fun ess turn near your office, or over washboard surfaces. The car will, in my parlance, feel lighter on its feet.
Also, lighter wheels/tires will be noticeable under acceleration, especially initial acceleration. This effect will diminish with higher rotational speeds. The further from the center of the wheel, the greater the effect; lighter tires will benefit rotational acceleration more than lighter wheels. A car with lighter wheels/tires will feel sprightlier off the line and when accelerating out of a low-speed corner.
Lowering unsprung weight will not, however, make the car feel as though all of the insulation, air conditioning hardware and the rear seat were removed; IOW it will not feel as though 300-400 lbs. were removed from the vehicle. I have to agree with Colin; buy wheels for strength, weight and looks -- not necessarily in that order -- and buy tires for their handling characteristics. And if you are lucky enough to have the choice between spending $500 more for wheels or $500 for driving school, opt for the driving school :-)
Regards,
-wdb
I put on my SPT rear swaybar over the weekend (19.5) and I swear the car felt a tad more sluggish. Ah, it's probably all in my head anyway and I don't have any numbers to prove anything.
I'm happy with my heavy P1's because I'm less concerned about smacking potholes than I would be with a lighter rim. I'm also very happy with the swaybar. :-)
edit: Aha. *Initial* acceleration, like wdb said. Makes sense.
-Dennis
The suspension is fighting less weight. 3 lbs seems like nothing until you realize you've reduced the job of the shocks by about 20%.
Less stress on the bearings, too, assuming you got the offsets right.
-juice
Weight of wheels and tires can be compared to flywheel weight in terms of engine performance. There is also the more important suspension aspect...just try moving 3lbs up and down at the rate our wheels move over bumps.
I cannot tell the diff. in acceleration but I can feel it in the suspension...go over some bumps thru a turn and there is less movement sideways with a lighter setup.
Don