Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

tjc78

It's more of an "adult" vacation, correct? My cousin and his wife go and all they talk about is the bar scene along the strip. I know they did some water activities, but it just didn't seem to be the place I want to take the kids.

graphicguy

oldfarmer50 said:

Work today was sweet torture. Bunch of dealer deliveries which allowed me to drool over cars while waiting for the check. Went to a Nissan/Genesis dealer and got a good look at a G70 with a $48k sticker. Must have been a stripper since it’s twin The Stinger in top form goes for $52k. Still very nice.

The cherry on the cake however was at a Caddy dealer. They had a black CTS tt V in the showroom for $64k. Except for not having enough money and remembering GGs experience it would be hard to resist. Especially since the sales manager was trying to sell me the whole time I was there.

Just read an article about how Hyundai has really botched the whole setting up the Genesis dealers. They're barely selling any cars, and good luck finding the desirable G70. Amazing you saw one.

They're as rare as hen's teeth around here.

abacomike

graphicguy said:

Work today was sweet torture. Bunch of dealer deliveries which allowed me to drool over cars while waiting for the check. Went to a Nissan/Genesis dealer and got a good look at a G70 with a $48k sticker. Must have been a stripper since it’s twin The Stinger in top form goes for $52k. Still very nice. The cherry on the cake however was at a Caddy dealer. They had a black CTS tt V in the showroom for $64k. Except for not having enough money and remembering GGs experience it would be hard to resist. Especially since the sales manager was trying to sell me the whole time I was there.

Just read an article about how Hyundai has really botched the whole setting up the Genesis dealers. They're barely selling any cars, and good luck finding the desirable G70. Amazing you saw one. They're as rare as hen's teeth around here.

I have yet to see a “stand-alone” Genesis Dealership down here in South Florida.  I do not understand why Hyundai separated the Genesis from the rest of their lineup of vehicles and announced the requirement that Hyundai dealerships must open a separate Genesis point of sale “before” there were  dealerships open and operating.  The company, in my opinion, put the cart before the horse and missed a great marketing opportunity.

They should have delayed the separation of the two lines until there were sufficient stand-alone Genesis Dealerships.  Then they would have had a magnificent marketing coup in the luxury automobile market.

ab348

abacomike said:

I have yet to see a “stand-alone” Genesis Dealership down here in South Florida.  I do not understand why Hyundai separated the Genesis from the rest of their lineup of vehicles and announced the requirement that Hyundai dealerships must open a separate Genesis point of sale “before” there were  dealerships open and operating.

Hubris. Or cluelessness, which is often related.

suydam

tjc78 said:

It's more of an "adult" vacation, correct? My cousin and his wife go and all they talk about is the bar scene along the strip. I know they did some water activities, but it just didn't seem to be the place I want to take the kids.

That may be true for Key West, but the Middle and Upper Keys are a great family vacation.

abacomike

suydam said:

We had a family vacation in Isla Morada a few years back and enjoyed it immensely. It’s very easy to get to from Miami. Weather was fabulous coming from the cold northeast. We rented a condo on the beach. Went sailing, did a lot of snorkeling, especially out to Pennecamp reefs, the teens and twenty-somethings swam with dolphins, we went to the Everglades — really interesting ecosystms like mangroves that aren’t anywhere else in the same way. We loved the food. Sampled several varieties of Key Lime pie, had terrific fresh fish every night. Since we had a condo, we cooked for ourselves too — even made latkes one night because it was Hanukkah. All the condos have boat parking spaces too because deep sea fishing is the real draw, which we didn’t do on that trip. Highly recommend as there is so much to do in that area. The kids even made friends with other vacationers, and we all enjoyed evenings on the beach, which had a bar just steps away.

I have frequented Islamorada over the years and find that Key to be the best of all the Florida Keys. First of all, the trip is 1/3 of the way to Key West which shortens the drive considerably. Second, it is not overly commercialized as is Key West. Third, the accommodations available are "Deluxe" which means there are many upscale hotels and inns on the island. Fourth, you can rent jet-skis, boats, fishing trips, or just relax and sip Mai-Tai's or Pina Coladas right on the beach or at the pool.

Islamorada is really a laid back community where you can just enjoy many things at a snail's pace rather than running from bar to bar or sightseeing every day. I highly recommend Islamorada (one word, not two words) to those of you interested in getting away from the hustle and bustle of life's hectic pace and want to just relax and soak up the ambiance of the area. There are many smaller Keys to the west that offer state park facilities for sightseeing if that's your niche.

abacomike

suydam said:

tjc78 said:

It's more of an "adult" vacation, correct? My cousin and his wife go and all they talk about is the bar scene along the strip. I know they did some water activities, but it just didn't seem to be the place I want to take the kids.

That may be true for Key West, but the Middle and Upper Keys are a great family vacation.

I agree, suydam! Unless your kids are old enough to enjoy watersports, boating, jet-skiing, etc., at a cost, I would not recommend it for kids any more than I would recommend Key West for kids. It's more of an adult vacation spot. I would recommend the Orlando or Tampa area if you have kids that need to be kept busy all the time - Disney World, Universal Studios, Sea World, etc.

But for adults, Islamorada is a true vacation paradise at a cost!

fintail

I never said you didn't, but ogling that "middle class" without context does carry some value.

I always find it amusing how some of a specific viewpoint fawn over the kleptocracy. Most of them couldn't hack it there, and if you'll never succeed without towing the party line.

ruking1 said:

Of course middle class is a relative construct ! ? Where did you get that I said the construct wasn’t relative? Indeed, app $32,000 USD yearly income puts you in the top 1% of the WORLD. (Top 1.03% to be closer)

houdini2

Mr_Shiftright said:

suydam said:

Moving away from China’s govt and back to cars, here is an interesting take on the auto loan “crisis”:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ronshevlin/2019/02/21/debunking-the-auto-loan-delinquency-crisis/amp/

That is interesting, but actually not all that comforting regardless. The numbers are still the numbers. It's like if automobile fatalities drop by 1,000 in a year, we all don't go YEA!

oldfarmer50 said:

Work today was sweet torture. Bunch of dealer deliveries which allowed me to drool over cars while waiting for the check. Went to a Nissan/Genesis dealer and got a good look at a G70 with a $48k sticker. Must have been a stripper since it’s twin The Stinger in top form goes for $52k. Still very nice.

The cherry on the cake however was at a Caddy dealer. They had a black CTS tt V in the showroom for $64k. Except for not having enough money and remembering GGs experience it would be hard to resist. Especially since the sales manager was trying to sell me the whole time I was there.

Lol. That is like saying, " If I had some tomatoes, I could have a bacon and tomato sandwich if I had some bacon ".

houdini2

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

berri said:

Heck, the country has become so divided that maybe it would be better to break into several separate countries. It just gets tiring listening to all the infighting these days.

Stick, all I'll say about the new tax code is that its reduction impacts are far greater for the wealthy and it certainly didn't eliminate any of the tax advantaged real estate developer loopholes - big surprise.

Well considering that as much as 40% or more of wage earners pay no income tax, the lower 50% pay less than 4% of all income taxes collected and the upper 1% pay more than the lower 90% it's hard to do a tax cut that doesn't impact the rich more than the middle and lower classes.

Tax cut to impact middle and lower classes more? Easy.

1) Eliminate sales tax.
2) Eliminate property tax for homes under $500,000.
3) Eliminate citation/ticket fines.
4) ELIMINATE ALL DMV FEES (LICENSE/REGISTRATION/DRIVER'S LICENSES)
5) Eliminate gas taxes.

Done!

This is never talked about much, but the big hit for lower income people is the social security taxes. You only pay on around the first $100,000 or so of income. So if all those rich people saying they should be paying more taxes, they should just start paying SS taxes on all their income.

houdini2

graphicguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Work today was sweet torture. Bunch of dealer deliveries which allowed me to drool over cars while waiting for the check. Went to a Nissan/Genesis dealer and got a good look at a G70 with a $48k sticker. Must have been a stripper since it’s twin The Stinger in top form goes for $52k. Still very nice.

The cherry on the cake however was at a Caddy dealer. They had a black CTS tt V in the showroom for $64k. Except for not having enough money and remembering GGs experience it would be hard to resist. Especially since the sales manager was trying to sell me the whole time I was there.

Just read an article about how Hyundai has really botched the whole setting up the Genesis dealers. They're barely selling any cars, and good luck finding the desirable G70. Amazing you saw one.

They're as rare as hen's teeth around here.

Same here in Kansas City. Probably think the only people who buy "luxury cars" live in California.

pensfan83

abacomike said:

suydam said:

tjc78 said:

It's more of an "adult" vacation, correct? My cousin and his wife go and all they talk about is the bar scene along the strip. I know they did some water activities, but it just didn't seem to be the place I want to take the kids.

That may be true for Key West, but the Middle and Upper Keys are a great family vacation.

I agree, suydam! Unless your kids are old enough to enjoy watersports, boating, jet-skiing, etc., at a cost, I would not recommend it for kids any more than I would recommend Key West for kids. It's more of an adult vacation spot. I would recommend the Orlando or Tampa area if you have kids that need to be kept busy all the time - Disney World, Universal Studios, Sea World, etc.

But for adults, Islamorada is a true vacation paradise at a cost!

We did something wrong then because it was just the wife and myself and we didn't come away with those same impressions.

driver100

graphicguy said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Anyone ever vacation in Key West or the Florida Keys in general? Any good for biking? Mobs of people?

Been there several times. They Keys are best seen by bike, actually. If you haven't been, it's worth it to visit.

But, don't ride your bike to get there

oldfarmer50

tjc78 said:

It's more of an "adult" vacation, correct? My cousin and his wife go and all they talk about is the bar scene along the strip. I know they did some water activities, but it just didn't seem to be the place I want to take the kids.

There’s always water activities for the kids and lots of parrots yelling from the trees. There used to be the Fisher museum if you’re into treasure hunting. They had a bar of gold from a Spanish ship in a case that you could reach in and hold but not remove...at least until someone figured out how to reach in and steal it. :@

henryn

suydam said:

Moving away from China’s govt and back to cars, here is an interesting take on the auto loan “crisis”:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ronshevlin/2019/02/21/debunking-the-auto-loan-delinquency-crisis/amp/

Interesting, thanks for posting it. On issues like this, I do like to see both sides of the story so I can make up my own mind.

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

graphicguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Work today was sweet torture. Bunch of dealer deliveries which allowed me to drool over cars while waiting for the check. Went to a Nissan/Genesis dealer and got a good look at a G70 with a $48k sticker. Must have been a stripper since it’s twin The Stinger in top form goes for $52k. Still very nice.

The cherry on the cake however was at a Caddy dealer. They had a black CTS tt V in the showroom for $64k. Except for not having enough money and remembering GGs experience it would be hard to resist. Especially since the sales manager was trying to sell me the whole time I was there.

Just read an article about how Hyundai has really botched the whole setting up the Genesis dealers. They're barely selling any cars, and good luck finding the desirable G70. Amazing you saw one.

They're as rare as hen's teeth around here.

I have yet to see a “stand-alone” Genesis Dealership down here in South Florida.  I do not understand why Hyundai separated the Genesis from the rest of their lineup of vehicles and announced the requirement that Hyundai dealerships must open a separate Genesis point of sale “before” there were  dealerships open and operating.  The company, in my opinion, put the cart before the horse and missed a great marketing opportunity.

They should have delayed the separation of the two lines until there were sufficient stand-alone Genesis Dealerships.  Then they would have had a magnificent marketing coup in the luxury automobile market.

I misspoke when I said I saw a G70 in a Nissan/Genesis store. It was of course a Hyundai/Genesis store. Hyundai was on one side and Genesis was on the other but it was the same building/showroom.

oldfarmer50

houdini2 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

suydam said:

Moving away from China’s govt and back to cars, here is an interesting take on the auto loan “crisis”:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ronshevlin/2019/02/21/debunking-the-auto-loan-delinquency-crisis/amp/

That is interesting, but actually not all that comforting regardless. The numbers are still the numbers. It's like if automobile fatalities drop by 1,000 in a year, we all don't go YEA!

oldfarmer50 said:

Work today was sweet torture. Bunch of dealer deliveries which allowed me to drool over cars while waiting for the check. Went to a Nissan/Genesis dealer and got a good look at a G70 with a $48k sticker. Must have been a stripper since it’s twin The Stinger in top form goes for $52k. Still very nice.

The cherry on the cake however was at a Caddy dealer. They had a black CTS tt V in the showroom for $64k. Except for not having enough money and remembering GGs experience it would be hard to resist. Especially since the sales manager was trying to sell me the whole time I was there.

Lol. That is like saying, " If I had some tomatoes, I could have a bacon and tomato sandwich if I had some bacon ".

Could you loan me some 🥓? You made me hungry.

28firefighter

For whatever it's worth, I wouldn't call Alfa Romeo's return to the US smooth. Many of them were tacked on to existing CJDR/Fiat dealerships and others were tacked onto Maserati dealers. You can only imagine how those buying experiences differ...

I shared this when I leased my Stelvio, but the dealer I purchased from was originally a Fiat store. They put up an Alfa Romeo sign and put some cars in the showroom. To do finance though, I had to go wait in line at the volume Dodge dealer across the street because they did not have a full-time finance manager. Not a great experience for what is supposed to be a high line vehicle.

jmonroe1

abacomike said:

graphicguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Work today was sweet torture. Bunch of dealer deliveries which allowed me to drool over cars while waiting for the check. Went to a Nissan/Genesis dealer and got a good look at a G70 with a $48k sticker. Must have been a stripper since it’s twin The Stinger in top form goes for $52k. Still very nice.

The cherry on the cake however was at a Caddy dealer. They had a black CTS tt V in the showroom for $64k. Except for not having enough money and remembering GGs experience it would be hard to resist. Especially since the sales manager was trying to sell me the whole time I was there.

Just read an article about how Hyundai has really botched the whole setting up the Genesis dealers. They're barely selling any cars, and good luck finding the desirable G70. Amazing you saw one.

They're as rare as hen's teeth around here.

I have yet to see a “stand-alone” Genesis Dealership down here in South Florida.  I do not understand why Hyundai separated the Genesis from the rest of their lineup of vehicles and announced the requirement that Hyundai dealerships must open a separate Genesis point of sale “before” there were  dealerships open and operating.  The company, in my opinion, put the cart before the horse and missed a great marketing opportunity.

They should have delayed the separation of the two lines until there were sufficient stand-alone Genesis Dealerships.  Then they would have had a magnificent marketing coup in the luxury automobile market.

Do you think Genesis is ever going to seriously compete in the real "luxury automobile market", with whatever marketing approach they take? I don't.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

houdini2 said:

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

berri said:

Heck, the country has become so divided that maybe it would be better to break into several separate countries. It just gets tiring listening to all the infighting these days.

Stick, all I'll say about the new tax code is that its reduction impacts are far greater for the wealthy and it certainly didn't eliminate any of the tax advantaged real estate developer loopholes - big surprise.

Well considering that as much as 40% or more of wage earners pay no income tax, the lower 50% pay less than 4% of all income taxes collected and the upper 1% pay more than the lower 90% it's hard to do a tax cut that doesn't impact the rich more than the middle and lower classes.

Tax cut to impact middle and lower classes more? Easy.

1) Eliminate sales tax.
2) Eliminate property tax for homes under $500,000.
3) Eliminate citation/ticket fines.
4) ELIMINATE ALL DMV FEES (LICENSE/REGISTRATION/DRIVER'S LICENSES)
5) Eliminate gas taxes.

Done!

This is never talked about much, but the big hit for lower income people is the social security taxes. You only pay on around the first $100,000 or so of income. So if all those rich people saying they should be paying more taxes, they should just start paying SS taxes on all their income.

But rich people don’t get a SS payment proportional to what they pay in whereas very poor people get a minimum benefit beyond what they contribute. As a person on the lower end of the scale I certainly don’t mind that but you can reach a point where the tax just becomes a redistribution of wealth.

One thing to remember is that social security is levied on earned income only and if you look back at tax history you know that rich people are very adept at structuring income so it isn’t considered earned income. When federal tax rates were 70-90% the very wealthy paid about the same percentage of their total income as they do now.

abacomike

pensfan83 said:

It's more of an "adult" vacation, correct? My cousin and his wife go and all they talk about is the bar scene along the strip. I know they did some water activities, but it just didn't seem to be the place I want to take the kids.

That may be true for Key West, but the Middle and Upper Keys are a great family vacation.

I agree, suydam! Unless your kids are old enough to enjoy watersports, boating, jet-skiing, etc., at a cost, I would not recommend it for kids any more than I would recommend Key West for kids. It's more of an adult vacation spot. I would recommend the Orlando or Tampa area if you have kids that need to be kept busy all the time - Disney World, Universal Studios, Sea World, etc. But for adults, Islamorada is a true vacation paradise at a cost!

We did something wrong then because it was just the wife and myself and we didn't come away with those same impressions.

Could have been where you stayed, vis a vis the hotel accommodations.

suydam

There are lots of activities for kids, but I agree it’s the most fun if they are somewhat older. They got us out and doing more than if we had been by ourselves. There are many condo beach rentals at all price points, and we liked having a kitchen and laundry handy.

driver100

"jmonroe1

>Do you think Genesis is ever going to seriously compete in the real "luxury automobile market", with whatever marketing approach they take? I don't.

jmonroe

I think they will...just have to find their way. They offer a pretty good product for a substantially lower price, some people fall like that.....you did!

They did things a bit backwards though. I can understand not wanting to sell luxury cars along the side of econo cars, but, even a separate showroom would have been a good start. Maybe with a bonus to the dealer they would get a first chance at a separate Genesis franchise dealer...when volume picked up.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

But rich people don’t get a SS payment proportional to what they pay in whereas very poor people get a minimum benefit beyond what they contribute. As a person on the lower end of the scale I certainly don’t mind that but you can reach a point where the tax just becomes a redistribution of wealth.

One thing to remember is that social security is levied on earned income only and if you look back at tax history you know that rich people are very adept at structuring income so it isn’t considered earned income. When federal tax rates were 70-90% the very wealthy paid about the same percentage of their total income as they do now.

I take exception against calling income "earned" or "unearned". I understand the genesis of this distinction, as the income is based on exchanging direct labor service to money, but I just hate the word "unearned". It's one step to "undeserved".
Regarding levying SS tax on income over $132.9K (2019), there is an "social solidarity" argument to be made, especially in face of its imminent insolvency of the system in the next decade or so. I'm not completely unsympathetic to it, as a practical matter we'll have to choose pretty soon, anyway, between cutting the benefits or raising this tax on more than just "the rich". However, my blood just boils every time I hear the "fair share" crap. It's one thing to say "I need more, please, and thank you by the way", completely another "pay your fair share, you freeloader, BTW you won't get any credit for amount over this", even if the final effect is the same.

berri

Hyundai Kia seems pretty busy these days. May be a bit over extended. Mazda's Amati seemed pretty good potential initially, but faded. Mazda may have also gotten digressed with their Ford partnership. However, Hyundai is a much bigger corporation. No one though HyunKia would get into larger crossovers, but the upcoming 2020's look quite promising. Should be interesting.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

But rich people don’t get a SS payment proportional to what they pay in whereas very poor people get a minimum benefit beyond what they contribute. As a person on the lower end of the scale I certainly don’t mind that but you can reach a point where the tax just becomes a redistribution of wealth.

One thing to remember is that social security is levied on earned income only and if you look back at tax history you know that rich people are very adept at structuring income so it isn’t considered earned income. When federal tax rates were 70-90% the very wealthy paid about the same percentage of their total income as they do now.

I take exception against calling income "earned" or "unearned". I understand the genesis of this distinction, as the income is based on exchanging direct labor service to money, but I just hate the word "unearned". It's one step to "undeserved".
Regarding levying SS tax on income over $132.9K (2019), there is an "social solidarity" argument to be made, especially in face of its imminent insolvency of the system in the next decade or so. I'm not completely unsympathetic to it, as a practical matter we'll have to choose pretty soon, anyway, between cutting the benefits or raising this tax on more than just "the rich". However, my blood just boils every time I hear the "fair share" crap. It's one thing to say "I need more, please, and thank you by the way", completely another "pay your fair share, you freeloader, BTW you won't get any credit for amount over this", even if the final effect is the same.

The definitions aren’t mine and if I understand your points I think I agree with them totally. The fact is though, the distinctions exist. I’ve never understood the fair share stuff since it depends on who you talk too.

ab348

I wonder what (the few) folks who shelled out big bucks for an Equus a few years back think about Hyundai these days.

fintail

I hope they leased.

ab348 said:

I wonder what (the few) folks who shelled out big bucks for an Equus a few years back think about Hyundai these days.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

The definitions aren’t mine and if I understand your points I think I agree with them totally. The fact is though, the distinctions exist. I’ve never understood the fair share stuff since it depends on who you talk too.

Oh, I knew it wasn’t your definition, it’s legal vocabulary. I just dislike it for the reasons stated.

roadburner

I'm finally getting my office whipped into shape. My predecessor had painted it a putrid shade of blue so I had to wait until the repaint to set up the furniture and electronics. In case you are wondering about the framed picture, it's an actual marquee poster for Furious 7; the catch phrase sums up my philosophy for my current term of office: "One Last Ride."

stickguy

nice collection of toys

28firefighter

Good for you. Nothing worse than trying to work in a space that is physically revolting to you. 

oldfarmer50

I had a dream last night. I dreamt that winter was over and I was out on the road in my Ford tearing up the pavement. In my dream it was so fast I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to wake up.

stickguy

then you hit a pothole?

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

then you hit a pothole?

Nope, and the best part, there wasn’t a police officer in sight.

andres3

oldfarmer50 said:

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

berri said:

Heck, the country has become so divided that maybe it would be better to break into several separate countries. It just gets tiring listening to all the infighting these days.

Stick, all I'll say about the new tax code is that its reduction impacts are far greater for the wealthy and it certainly didn't eliminate any of the tax advantaged real estate developer loopholes - big surprise.

Well considering that as much as 40% or more of wage earners pay no income tax, the lower 50% pay less than 4% of all income taxes collected and the upper 1% pay more than the lower 90% it's hard to do a tax cut that doesn't impact the rich more than the middle and lower classes.

Tax cut to impact middle and lower classes more? Easy.

1) Eliminate sales tax.
2) Eliminate property tax for homes under $500,000.
3) Eliminate citation/ticket fines.
4) ELIMINATE ALL DMV FEES (LICENSE/REGISTRATION/DRIVER'S LICENSES)
5) Eliminate gas taxes.

Done!

Except for part of the last item those are all state taxes not federal. If you think states are going to do away with their slush funds I want the number to the dispensary you use.

Ahhh, the Federal gov't could choose to "reimburse" the States for lost tax revenue from helping the "middle class."

tjc78

roadburner said:

I'm finally getting my office whipped into shape. My predecessor had painted it a putrid shade of blue so I had to wait until the repaint to set up the furniture and electronics. In case you are wondering about the framed picture, it's an actual marquee poster for Furious 7; the catch phrase sums up my philosophy for my current term of office: "One Last Ride."

Yeah your space needs to feel right.  

Last year when I changed positions in the company the office I took was long overdue for a makeover.  I turned the desk / hutch and the wall was a different color behind it.  That was a good conversation piece for the few weeks before maintenance could get it painted.   

oldfarmer50

tjc78 said:

roadburner said:

I'm finally getting my office whipped into shape. My predecessor had painted it a putrid shade of blue so I had to wait until the repaint to set up the furniture and electronics. In case you are wondering about the framed picture, it's an actual marquee poster for Furious 7; the catch phrase sums up my philosophy for my current term of office: "One Last Ride."

Yeah your space needs to feel right.  

Last year when I changed positions in the company the office I took was long overdue for a makeover.  I turned the desk / hutch and the wall was a different color behind it.  That was a good conversation piece for the few weeks before maintenance could get it painted.   

Here’s my office. RR’s is nicer but I get to sleep in the back of mine half the time.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

then you hit a pothole?

Nope, and the best part, there wasn’t a police officer in sight.

You must have been driving in Florida!

driver100

ab348 said:

I wonder what (the few) folks who shelled out big bucks for an Equus a few years back think about Hyundai these days.

Interesting question. This is what a top of the line 2016 Equuus Ultimate would fetch today;
Trade-In $26,243 /Private Party28,959 /Dealer Retail $31,367

Keep this in mind,

The 2016 Hyundai Equus has a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $62,450 for the Signature model and $69,700 for the fully loaded Ultimate edition.

IMamateurO it seems the depreciation isn't too bad for a luxury car....about half of the original actual price.
My concern is where do you get it serviced and how available are parts?

abacomike

dino001 said:

But rich people don’t get a SS payment proportional to what they pay in whereas very poor people get a minimum benefit beyond what they contribute. As a person on the lower end of the scale I certainly don’t mind that but you can reach a point where the tax just becomes a redistribution of wealth. One thing to remember is that social security is levied on earned income only and if you look back at tax history you know that rich people are very adept at structuring income so it isn’t considered earned income. When federal tax rates were 70-90% the very wealthy paid about the same percentage of their total income as they do now.

I take exception against calling income "earned" or "unearned". I understand the genesis of this distinction, as the income is based on exchanging direct labor service to money, but I just hate the word "unearned". It's one step to "undeserved". Regarding levying SS tax on income over $132.9K (2019), there is an "social solidarity" argument to be made, especially in face of its imminent insolvency of the system in the next decade or so. I'm not completely unsympathetic to it, as a practical matter we'll have to choose pretty soon, anyway, between cutting the benefits or raising this tax on more than just "the rich". However, my blood just boils every time I hear the "fair share" crap. It's one thing to say "I need more, please, and thank you by the way", completely another "pay your fair share, you freeloader, BTW you won't get any credit for amount over this", even if the final effect is the same.

Social Security deductions from payroll should be considered a “tax” rather than a contribution to the system for future benefits - isn’t that what it actually is - a TAX?  It used to be called OASI (Old Age and Survivors Insurance) or “insurance”,

If it is/was insurance, one would assume that the higher your premiums, the more you would receive as a benefit.  But what is “more”?  I know people and family members who paid hundreds of thousands of dollars into the system but will receive less than they and their employers paid into the system in their retirement years.

I agree with those who believe this is another form of wealth distribution - a socialist term.  But that is how it was initially set up - to redistribute wealth - during the FDR years.

We live in a “Mixed Capitalism Economy” meaning part social programs, part governmental regulations to keep capitalism from running amok, and capitalism which enables members of society to earn whatever they can (corporations as well).

It’s been like this in our beloved USA since the crash of 1929.  Before that, the barons of industry did what they wanted and earned what they could almost unchecked.  

It it is what it is! 

P.S.  This is not a political statement - just a set of facts to better understand our existing economy.

houdini2

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

But rich people don’t get a SS payment proportional to what they pay in whereas very poor people get a minimum benefit beyond what they contribute. As a person on the lower end of the scale I certainly don’t mind that but you can reach a point where the tax just becomes a redistribution of wealth.

One thing to remember is that social security is levied on earned income only and if you look back at tax history you know that rich people are very adept at structuring income so it isn’t considered earned income. When federal tax rates were 70-90% the very wealthy paid about the same percentage of their total income as they do now.

I take exception against calling income "earned" or "unearned". I understand the genesis of this distinction, as the income is based on exchanging direct labor service to money, but I just hate the word "unearned". It's one step to "undeserved".
Regarding levying SS tax on income over $132.9K (2019), there is an "social solidarity" argument to be made, especially in face of its imminent insolvency of the system in the next decade or so. I'm not completely unsympathetic to it, as a practical matter we'll have to choose pretty soon, anyway, between cutting the benefits or raising this tax on more than just "the rich". However, my blood just boils every time I hear the "fair share" crap. It's one thing to say "I need more, please, and thank you by the way", completely another "pay your fair share, you freeloader, BTW you won't get any credit for amount over this", even if the final effect is the same.

There is a lot that is not "fair" under our current system. It is like a football game where Team Gov. is ahead of Team People 50 to 0, and the rule changes keep favoring Team Gov. because all the rule makers are on that team.

On the other hand, the members of Team Gov. were selected by the members of Team People, so I guess it is fair to say that we get the gov. that we deserve.

dino001

abacomike said:

Social Security deductions from payroll should be considered a “tax” rather than a contribution to the system for future benefits - isn’t that what it actually is - a TAX?  It used to be called OASI (Old Age and Survivors Insurance) or “insurance”,

If it is/was insurance, one would assume that the higher your premiums, the more you would receive as a

SS is a little bit like insurance, as you take money from today's workers to pay today's retirees, just like State Farm pays claims from currently collected premiums and saved capital. The difference is of course, insurance companies constantly look forward and adjust their rates/underwriting according to actuarial data. For number of decades the program was cash positive (i.e. more was paid into it than out) due to youthful nature of US population and relatively robust immigration and the politicians saw that as a great opportunity to spend that money to whatever they pleased. Money is fungible, so Republicans will point to social welfare programs, Democrats will point out to defense spending and both say that's where the money went, so it's not "our fault". It bailed them both out from making any real decisions to raise taxes or cut spending on their favorite pets and facing unhappy voters. Nobody is happy when told you'll pay more and get less. What's even worse, decades of raided SS fund created impression that you really can "have it all", i.e. low taxes and ever increasing spending, forever. Now that the trends really changed, fewer people pay into the system and the money from previous generations is gone, there will be some unpleasant choices to be made, pretty soon. As always, politicians know it's happening, but as long as markets don't make them do it, they can keep pretending it's not for them to be made. And the voters will go along, convinced it will be somebody else who will pay, not them. Probably their children, but who cares, right? Or perhaps a mystical rich guy will pay. He probably stole it anyway, so yeah, let's take it.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

berri said:

Heck, the country has become so divided that maybe it would be better to break into several separate countries. It just gets tiring listening to all the infighting these days.

Stick, all I'll say about the new tax code is that its reduction impacts are far greater for the wealthy and it certainly didn't eliminate any of the tax advantaged real estate developer loopholes - big surprise.

Well considering that as much as 40% or more of wage earners pay no income tax, the lower 50% pay less than 4% of all income taxes collected and the upper 1% pay more than the lower 90% it's hard to do a tax cut that doesn't impact the rich more than the middle and lower classes.

Tax cut to impact middle and lower classes more? Easy.

1) Eliminate sales tax.
2) Eliminate property tax for homes under $500,000.
3) Eliminate citation/ticket fines.
4) ELIMINATE ALL DMV FEES (LICENSE/REGISTRATION/DRIVER'S LICENSES)
5) Eliminate gas taxes.

Done!

Well we are discussing Federal income taxes and not the whole tax burden.

1 and 2 are local taxes and you need to talk to your state and local officials about that, but be aware that they need to raise the revenue in other ways or cut services.

3 isn't a tax it's a fine that can easily be avoided.

4 isn't a tax but a user fee.

5 is both federal and state but if eliminated be prepared for other revenue generation or having the roads go to rot.

snakeweasel

oldfarmer50 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Anyone ever vacation in Key West or the Florida Keys in general? Any good for biking? Mobs of people?

If price is no object try Sunset Key just off shore. Private cabana, private yacht at your disposal, private pool and restaurant. Leave your bike on shore and take the yacht down to the jet ski rental.

This is the old farmer himself considering spring planting in 2004.

It looks like he is about to fall out of that hammock.

snakeweasel

PF_Flyer said:

RIP Peter Tork. And I get to keep it about cars with the George Barris '66 Pontiac convertible. Hey hey...

RIP Peter.

If you get METV they are supposed to have two Monkees episodes centering on Peter Tork tomorrow.

oldfarmer50

snakeweasel said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Anyone ever vacation in Key West or the Florida Keys in general? Any good for biking? Mobs of people?

If price is no object try Sunset Key just off shore. Private cabana, private yacht at your disposal, private pool and restaurant. Leave your bike on shore and take the yacht down to the jet ski rental.

This is the old farmer himself considering spring planting in 2004.

It looks like he is about to fall out of that hammock.

Falling on my head might explain a lot.

oldfarmer50

I remember reading how some places in Texas opted out of social security and made out better with their own plan.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2011/05/12/how-three-texas-counties-created-personal-social-security-accounts-and-prospered/#4aa66dd32832

snakeweasel

houdini2 said:

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

berri said:

Heck, the country has become so divided that maybe it would be better to break into several separate countries. It just gets tiring listening to all the infighting these days.

Stick, all I'll say about the new tax code is that its reduction impacts are far greater for the wealthy and it certainly didn't eliminate any of the tax advantaged real estate developer loopholes - big surprise.

Well considering that as much as 40% or more of wage earners pay no income tax, the lower 50% pay less than 4% of all income taxes collected and the upper 1% pay more than the lower 90% it's hard to do a tax cut that doesn't impact the rich more than the middle and lower classes.

Tax cut to impact middle and lower classes more? Easy.

1) Eliminate sales tax.
2) Eliminate property tax for homes under $500,000.
3) Eliminate citation/ticket fines.
4) ELIMINATE ALL DMV FEES (LICENSE/REGISTRATION/DRIVER'S LICENSES)
5) Eliminate gas taxes.

Done!

This is never talked about much, but the big hit for lower income people is the social security taxes. You only pay on around the first $100,000 or so of income. So if all those rich people saying they should be paying more taxes, they should just start paying SS taxes on all their income.

The problem is that SS taxes are only assessed on earned income, most wealthy people earn their money passively in the order of capital gains, dividends and the like.

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

But rich people don’t get a SS payment proportional to what they pay in whereas very poor people get a minimum benefit beyond what they contribute. As a person on the lower end of the scale I certainly don’t mind that but you can reach a point where the tax just becomes a redistribution of wealth.

One thing to remember is that social security is levied on earned income only and if you look back at tax history you know that rich people are very adept at structuring income so it isn’t considered earned income. When federal tax rates were 70-90% the very wealthy paid about the same percentage of their total income as they do now.

I take exception against calling income "earned" or "unearned". I understand the genesis of this distinction, as the income is based on exchanging direct labor service to money, but I just hate the word "unearned". It's one step to "undeserved".
Regarding levying SS tax on income over $132.9K (2019), there is an "social solidarity" argument to be made, especially in face of its imminent insolvency of the system in the next decade or so. I'm not completely unsympathetic to it, as a practical matter we'll have to choose pretty soon, anyway, between cutting the benefits or raising this tax on more than just "the rich". However, my blood just boils every time I hear the "fair share" crap. It's one thing to say "I need more, please, and thank you by the way", completely another "pay your fair share, you freeloader, BTW you won't get any credit for amount over this", even if the final effect is the same.

Earned income is more predictable as in if I work 1 hour I know I will get X amount of dollars and is an exchange of goods and or services. Unearned is not predictable as in I have no idea how much this stock will be worth after so much time has passed and is not an exchange of goods and or services.