Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

I have a mental divide between "new" cars and "old" cars. Probably going back to my youth when I had an endless series of, well, junkers and well-worn cheapies.

a Car can be New for a long time, or get old early. New means I don't worry about it starting, an will hop in at any time and go anywhere. Our RDX is almost 7, and still in this category. But, at some point, it starts to develop some foibles (a few things go, noises develop, etc.) Probably stills functions OK, but I stop trusting it as much and would not just hop in and drive 500 miles without a care. At this point, it has become an Old car.

Old cars are fine for being a spare, more local car. I would drive one. My wife, not a chance. So her car, which is also usually the more utility focused one that we take to travel, will always qualify as new. My car, which would not get many miles and usually not going very far from home, could be well used.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

No doubt owning any car for over 10 years will always be cheaper than consistently buying/leasing new.

It probably will, but will it always start when you have an important job interview, will it breakdown on the way to your daughters wedding, will the transmission fall out on the way to a friends funeral, will it stall out on the highway on a 300 mile trip?

Reliability is worth a lot too. You could still end up paying more if you lose your job because your car won't start in the morning several times. Plus down time in the garage. A new car allows you many years of trouble free driving, and you have a good start at maintaining it properly.

I consistently take cars to ten years and never had any of those issues. Unless you're driving 20k or more miles a year 10 years of driving isn't a lot of miles for modern cars. Any decent car can do it and do it reliably.

This idea that cars easily make it to 200000 miles is a bit of a myth. Here is a list of how many miles you can go before a car becomes worthless.

The company came up with a list of the Top 10 brands, in terms of the maximum number of miles at which their cars and trucks become theoretically “worthless.” Nadjarian said some smaller-volume brands may have fallen off the list due to small sample sizes.

Here’s the list, according to mojomotors.com:

1. Toyota – 210,705 miles until worthless;
2. Honda – 209,001 miles until worthless;
3. Ford – 198,409 miles until worthless;
4. Dodge – 198,266 miles until worthless;
5. Chevrolet – 195,754 miles until worthless;
6. Nissan – 195,593 miles until worthless;
7. Subaru – 189,370 miles until worthless;
8. GMC – 188,584 miles until worthless;
9. Acura – 178,947 miles until worthless;
10. Mazda – 177,729 miles until worthless
I believe some like Dodge and Chev are because of their trucks. You can see that only the top reliable cars make it to 200k and then are worthless. Your 2008 Sebring should have been traded in one year ago

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Is this really happening? Is the tech to do this readily available? Opinions?

https://youtu.be/dkHFf4_oAKs

Worthwhile watching.....thanks for posting OF. Confirms my thoughts about CL and the newspaper these days.
I believe they have those devices, and I wouldn't buy a car from CL. There are too many things that can go wrong, and too many scammers trying to make a quick buck. Pay a bit more, and buy from a dealer who has a good reputation and a warranty. The only other way to buy is from someone you know, directly or indirectly.

What makes you think some dealers don’t do the same thing?

Also your discussion about the cost of body repair made me think of a few videos I've seen where many insurance company “preferred” body shops have been caught doing shoddy work leaving cars to rot out from the inside or become unsafe. One Honda I saw was supposed to have 23 welds on a certain panel but the shop only did 11. In a crash the car would have folded up like an accordion.

You take precautions and do the best you can do to protect yourself;
*Dealers could could turn back mileage or sell salvaged cars....but, highly unlikely a new car dealer or a very highly rated reputable independent is going to sell garbage....they make their money by selling good quality cars and doing repeat business.

*Body shops similar. A body shop could cut corners but eventually the insurance company will cut them off. Often they belong to organizations which accredit them as trustworthy.....we have garages and repair shops that belong to Car Stars.

The 2014 C Class we bought 2 years ago was a CPO car, they do 120 point inspection. Do you know how nice it is to know all the light bulbs are going to work, all the controls are working, the brakes are safe etc, and if not they will guaranty it for....in this case, 2 years. Might pay a few $1000 more, but, it is better than throwing away $25000!

But how do you know they did the inspection?

They have a document where they check off each item.....it is like a contract....the mechanic signs off that the work was done. Mercedes knows that their reputation is at stake....and they want their used cars to be 1st class as it supports the trade-in values etc. They want to make it so you can buy in confidence. That certificate means the car is guaranteed for a total of 5 years, 3 years original warranty plus anything up to 5 years....if it was fraudulent they could end up in big trouble.

driver100

stickguy
I have a mental divide between "new" cars and "old" cars. Probably going back to my youth when I had an endless series of, well, junkers and well-worn cheapies.

I see it the same way stick! Nothing wrong with used or new....depends on various factors. But, a lot of people assume driving a used car WILL save them money. My point is unless you know what you are doing, and you have some luck, you COULD end up paying more for a used car, especially over an 8 or 10 year window.

driver100

andres3
Great dealership, but still keeps me away from Ford for I'd like decent paint with my car, or my car with decent paint please

Andre, you can score more points by not making unsubstantiated statements....and using opinion as facts. There is nothing to indicate Ford uses inferior paint. Ford, GM, VW, Nissan, Mazda, Chrysler.....they all make decent cars these days and they suit the people who buy them.......sometimes just because of cost. Many brands probably use the same or similar paint. If you make a statement back it up......or put on your signature line: "These are the express opinions of me only"

dino001

snakeweasel said:

But how do you know they did the inspection?

Becuase they said so and they never lie

tjc78

stickguy said:

I have a mental divide between "new" cars and "old" cars. Probably going back to my youth when I had an endless series of, well, junkers and well-worn cheapies.

a Car can be New for a long time, or get old early. New means I don't worry about it starting, an will hop in at any time and go anywhere. Our RDX is almost 7, and still in this category. But, at some point, it starts to develop some foibles (a few things go, noises develop, etc.) Probably stills functions OK, but I stop trusting it as much and would not just hop in and drive 500 miles without a care. At this point, it has become an Old car.

Old cars are fine for being a spare, more local car. I would drive one. My wife, not a chance. So her car, which is also usually the more utility focused one that we take to travel, will always qualify as new. My car, which would not get many miles and usually not going very far from home, could be well used.

This is a pretty good assessment IMO. We have a six year old Tahoe at work with 55K miles, I'd drive it anywhere.

When I got rid of my 04 Grand Marquis it was 12 years old with 100K miles or so. I had driven it to Richmond only a few months prior to getting rid of it. I wasn't scared it would break down or leave me stranded, but my wife really wanted me to rent a car or take hers.

I think it all depends on the car. If from a few years old it was problematic and stranded you then I certainly wouldn't take it far when it was approaching ten years old.

I will most likely jinx myself now, but in 23 years of driving I have only been stranded one time. Was it my completely beat 79 Continental? My POS 93 Taurus? Nope a brand new Genesis. The second closest was when my (again) brand new 03 Avalon blew it's power steering pump and sprayed the fluid all over the engine. I was only mile from the dealer so I limped it there.

dino001

snakeweasel said:

I consistently take cars to ten years and never had any of those issues. Unless you're driving 20k or more miles a year 10 years of driving isn't a lot of miles for modern cars. Any decent car can do it and do it reliably.

You're talking too much sense, Snake. Accountants and their numbers, you're worse than engineers...

Emotion - that's what sells. OMG, my five year old car is going to have a bad bulb!!! I can't deal with that!

With all seriousness, humans are terrible in risk assessment and perceive it in a very non-linear way. On one hand we teach ourselves to brush aside high probability events, such as car or workplace accidents, certain types of illnesses, or death when you are in a war zone (I once watched documentary about people in Sarajevo's "sniper alley", when at some point people stopped sneaking around, even though the snipers were as active as at the beginning). We have to, otherwise we would be paralyzed with fear every day, we essentially move forward and choose to carry on with life. On the other hand, we get easily frightened by very low probability events that can have strong adverse (or catastrophic) effect: arbitrary terrorist attacks, one Ebola case in a city 1000 miles away, things like that. Those things can be traces all the way to cave man times.

Somehow, remote possibility of engine failure on a trip (and all related inconvenience and costs) becomes such an unbearable thought for some people that they would rather spend many times times that POTENTIAL amount by paying vehicle depreciation again and again during frequent replacement cycles to shield themselves from it.
If you run real numbers you see it's really obvious to keep the car for 10 years and deal with some of those inconveniences and risks rather than voluntarily give away nearly half of the value every three years. Simple numbers bear it out at every level of the vehicle, whether it's a $20 Kia, or $100k Benz. But having a new car smell every three years, is priceless, I guess.

BTW, I never kept my car till 10 years old, except the very first one, which I bought 10 years old (and it was kind of junky VW Fox). :laughing: I just tell myself I get a new one because I want to, not because I "have to". My goal is to get to the 6 year line. Not sure if I'm gonna make it this time.

tjc78

But having a new car smell every three years, is priceless, I guess.

Everyone has their vices in life. Some gamble, some have boats, some collect stamps, etc etc

I have a few family members that drive junk ....pure junk but go on several big buck vacations three/four times a year. Another has a vacation home. It just depends on your priorities.

I want newer cars in my driveway and budget accordingly. Do I spend more? Sure, but that's my prerogative. Heck, when the Elantra goes back in November it is getting replaced with something nicer now that I have to drive it every day. The practical and frugal side of me says replace it with another one, but the car lover in me says...NO!!

roadburner

A CPO car is only as good as the dealer certifying it. In my case the two BMW dealers I have bought from the cars looked and performed like new.
 I have read of CPO cars that were poorly inspected-if at all-by a number of dealers- BMW and otherwise. 

fintail

Exactly. It is all about priorities.

Besides, hearses don't have luggage racks

tjc78 said:

But having a new car smell every three years, is priceless, I guess.

Everyone has their vices in life. Some gamble, some have boats, some collect stamps, etc etc

I have a few family members that drive junk ....pure junk but go on several big buck vacations three/four times a year. Another has a vacation home. It just depends on your priorities.

I want newer cars in my driveway and budget accordingly. Do I spend more? Sure, but that's my prerogative. Heck, when the Elantra goes back in November it is getting replaced with something nicer now that I have to drive it every day. The practical and frugal side of me says replace it with another one, but the car lover in me says...NO!!

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

No doubt owning any car for over 10 years will always be cheaper than consistently buying/leasing new.

It probably will, but will it always start when you have an important job interview, will it breakdown on the way to your daughters wedding, will the transmission fall out on the way to a friends funeral, will it stall out on the highway on a 300 mile trip? Reliability is worth a lot too. You could still end up paying more if you lose your job because your car won't start in the morning several times. Plus down time in the garage. A new car allows you many years of trouble free driving, and you have a good start at maintaining it properly.

I consistently take cars to ten years and never had any of those issues. Unless you're driving 20k or more miles a year 10 years of driving isn't a lot of miles for modern cars. Any decent car can do it and do it reliably.

This idea that cars easily make it to 200000 miles is a bit of a myth. Here is a list of how many miles you can go before a car becomes worthless. The company came up with a list of the Top 10 brands, in terms of the maximum number of miles at which their cars and trucks become theoretically “worthless.” Nadjarian said some smaller-volume brands may have fallen off the list due to small sample sizes. Here’s the list, according to mojomotors.com: 1. Toyota – 210,705 miles until worthless; 2. Honda – 209,001 miles until worthless; 3. Ford – 198,409 miles until worthless; 4. Dodge – 198,266 miles until worthless; 5. Chevrolet – 195,754 miles until worthless; 6. Nissan – 195,593 miles until worthless; 7. Subaru – 189,370 miles until worthless; 8. GMC – 188,584 miles until worthless; 9. Acura – 178,947 miles until worthless; 10. Mazda – 177,729 miles until worthless I believe some like Dodge and Chev are because of their trucks. You can see that only the top reliable cars make it to 200k and then are worthless. Your 2008 Sebring should have been traded in one year ago

Worth is a subjective notion. I fond diamonds a waste of money my wife would disagree. As for the Sebring it does have value, at least for me. The car runs and does so pretty well, it started up easily when we had 25 below weather and while there is a very light vibration coming from the engine when stopped if you put it in neutral or park you couldn't tell the car was running. I have no worries about reliability for the near future and would take it on longer trips.

So my car does have value to me in as much as it is saving me hundreds of dollars a month.

stickguy

Of course a lot of it is justifying buying something you want, even don’t really need. Not just cars. Old cell phones, stereos, TVs. They just usually don’t costvas much. Houses too though!

My best example was our Volvo S40. At about 120k (9 YO). Good little car, perfect for my daughter to take to HS and bop around town. When she took a car to college 450 miles away, and would be doing repeated drives on I95 through Richmond, DC, Baltimore, by herself (and a lot of running around at school) we decided to upgrade her to a new (cheap lease) car. Because worst case scenario (a break down) if it happened at night on the DC beltway, was really bad to consider.

The car also had some normal age related stuff wear out. And if something failed while at school, I knew from experience with my sons TL me dealing with it from afar was a nightmare.

She ended up putting 10k/year on that lease too, so by the end would have been road warrior-Ing a 12 YO 150k car. So it was worth it to us to spend a relatively small amount (factoring in gas, maintenance, repairs) to have new wheels, with some xtra features too. Not getting a call at night that the car died on her, priceless to me!

But, if she had gone to school 30 miles away, would have kept the Volvo.

pensfan83

The Prelude is by far the highest mileage car I have ever owned however it's been impeccably maintained over the years so I have a high, some might say false, sense of confidence it's not going to leave me stranded. I probably would not drive cross-country in it but I would have no concerns with a 5-6 hour radius of home.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

Is this really happening? Is the tech to do this readily available? Opinions? https://youtu.be/dkHFf4_oAKs

Worthwhile watching.....thanks for posting OF. Confirms my thoughts about CL and the newspaper these days. I believe they have those devices, and I wouldn't buy a car from CL. There are too many things that can go wrong, and too many scammers trying to make a quick buck. Pay a bit more, and buy from a dealer who has a good reputation and a warranty. The only other way to buy is from someone you know, directly or indirectly.

What makes you think some dealers don’t do the same thing? Also your discussion about the cost of body repair made me think of a few videos I've seen where many insurance company “preferred” body shops have been caught doing shoddy work leaving cars to rot out from the inside or become unsafe. One Honda I saw was supposed to have 23 welds on a certain panel but the shop only did 11. In a crash the car would have folded up like an accordion.

You take precautions and do the best you can do to protect yourself; *Dealers could could turn back mileage or sell salvaged cars....but, highly unlikely a new car dealer or a very highly rated reputable independent is going to sell garbage....they make their money by selling good quality cars and doing repeat business. *Body shops similar. A body shop could cut corners but eventually the insurance company will cut them off. Often they belong to organizations which accredit them as trustworthy.....we have garages and repair shops that belong to Car Stars. The 2014 C Class we bought 2 years ago was a CPO car, they do 120 point inspection. Do you know how nice it is to know all the light bulbs are going to work, all the controls are working, the brakes are safe etc, and if not they will guaranty it for....in this case, 2 years. Might pay a few $1000 more, but, it is better than throwing away $25000!

But how do you know they did the inspection?

They have a document where they check off each item.....it is like a contract....the mechanic signs off that the work was done. Mercedes knows that their reputation is at stake....and they want their used cars to be 1st class as it supports the trade-in values etc. They want to make it so you can buy in confidence. That certificate means the car is guaranteed for a total of 5 years, 3 years original warranty plus anything up to 5 years....if it was fraudulent they could end up in big trouble.

All the check off list proves is that they checked off the list. Check your paperwork to see what your recourse is if you discover an issue that should have been corrected during the inspection. 

https://youtu.be/hOH8jXTwELg

jmonroe1

venture said:

stickguy said:

I see texting more at stoplights. No danger in that, but real annoying since they never notice the light changing.

My Legacy will beep and display a message "vehicle in front has moved" (or something similar).

Yep, Mrs. j's. new Subie has that feature. I got a kick out of that the first time I saw it. I never heard of that before, not even in here. I wonder if any of the real luxo cars have that feature. If I paid over 60 grand for a car and didn't get that I'd have to wonder what kind of a wannabe I just got screwed with. :@

jmonroe

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

But how do you know they did the inspection?

Becuase they said so and they never lie

Steve Letho has a few videos about CPOs I linked one of them above.

roadburner

I remember we found that my son’s CPO 328i had a broken cup holder in the rear armrest; I told my SA and he ordered the part and installed it at the next oil service.  No issue whatsoever. 

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

No doubt owning any car for over 10 years will always be cheaper than consistently buying/leasing new.

It probably will, but will it always start when you have an important job interview, will it breakdown on the way to your daughters wedding, will the transmission fall out on the way to a friends funeral, will it stall out on the highway on a 300 mile trip?

Reliability is worth a lot too. You could still end up paying more if you lose your job because your car won't start in the morning several times. Plus down time in the garage. A new car allows you many years of trouble free driving, and you have a good start at maintaining it properly.

I consistently take cars to ten years and never had any of those issues. Unless you're driving 20k or more miles a year 10 years of driving isn't a lot of miles for modern cars. Any decent car can do it and do it reliably.

This idea that cars easily make it to 200000 miles is a bit of a myth. Here is a list of how many miles you can go before a car becomes worthless.

The company came up with a list of the Top 10 brands, in terms of the maximum number of miles at which their cars and trucks become theoretically “worthless.” Nadjarian said some smaller-volume brands may have fallen off the list due to small sample sizes.

Here’s the list, according to mojomotors.com:

1. Toyota – 210,705 miles until worthless;
2. Honda – 209,001 miles until worthless;
3. Ford – 198,409 miles until worthless;
4. Dodge – 198,266 miles until worthless;
5. Chevrolet – 195,754 miles until worthless;
6. Nissan – 195,593 miles until worthless;
7. Subaru – 189,370 miles until worthless;
8. GMC – 188,584 miles until worthless;
9. Acura – 178,947 miles until worthless;
10. Mazda – 177,729 miles until worthless
I believe some like Dodge and Chev are because of their trucks. You can see that only the top reliable cars make it to 200k and then are worthless. Your 2008 Sebring should have been traded in one year ago

Worth is a subjective notion. I fond diamonds a waste of money my wife would disagree. As for the Sebring it does have value, at least for me. The car runs and does so pretty well, it started up easily when we had 25 below weather and while there is a very light vibration coming from the engine when stopped if you put it in neutral or park you couldn't tell the car was running. I have no worries about reliability for the near future and would take it on longer trips.

So my car does have value to me in as much as it is saving me hundreds of dollars a month.

.....as long as you don't want to put the top down.

qbrozen

The recent discussion made me think back. I have not BOUGHT many NEW vehicles. ‘98 Dakota, ‘03 Pilot, ‘14 Mustang, ‘14 CTS, Honda Fit, and ‘14 T&C. I believe that is it. 

driver100

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:

snakeweasel said:

But how do you know they did the inspection?

Becuase they said so and they never lie

Steve Letho has a few videos about CPOs I linked one of them above.

I watched the video and I don't agree completely. When we got the 2014 C250 it was 3 1/2 years old. Everything worked as stated. If you buy a used car without a warranty you could find that bulbs are burned out, the radio doesn't work, a door lock isn't working. I didn't have to worry about those things...and if it wasn't right they would have to fix it.
Next, he claims the dealer checks the boxes but the warranty is between the manufacturer and the customer. How long will MB let a dealer sell used cars if they keep coming back because they weren't properly inspected?
You do pay a premium, and maybe the system isn't perfect, but, if CPO is a scam, they won't get repeat customers - and without repeat customers they won't end up with much of a business.
I think Stevo has a little racket going on there trying to drum up some business....do lawyers always tell the truth?

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

venture said:

stickguy said:

I see texting more at stoplights. No danger in that, but real annoying since they never notice the light changing.

My Legacy will beep and display a message "vehicle in front has moved" (or something similar).

Yep, Mrs. j's. new Subie has that feature. I got a kick out of that the first time I saw it. I never heard of that before, not even in here. I wonder if any of the real luxo cars have that feature. If I paid over 60 grand for a car and didn't get that I'd have to wonder what kind of a wannabe I just got screwed with. :@

jmonroe

I don't have to be woken up when the light changes....I still have my wits about me......probably because I don't fill my brain with useless Jeopardy information.

tjc78

qbrozen said:

The recent discussion made me think back. I have not BOUGHT many NEW vehicles. ‘98 Dakota, ‘03 Pilot, ‘14 Mustang, ‘14 CTS, Honda Fit, and ‘14 T&C. I believe that is it. 

I bought only one new one, my 98 Olds 88. Otherwise any new one was leased.

driver100

I found this interesting.
Our federal government will give a $5000 bonus if you buy an EV that has a base price under $45000
The Tesla 3 was selling for $47600.
What Tesla did was cut the buying price to $44999.
Only problem, the $44999 Tesla Model 3 will only go 90 miles on a charge, compared to 220 miles for a regular Model 3.
Now you have to pay $44999 and get optioned up to $53,700 to get the 220 range model....which is allowed.
They make it hard to order the base $44999 model, can't be done online.
The $44999 model has the same battery, it is just programmed not to go 220 miles.

Smoke and mirrors!

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

venture said:

stickguy said:

I see texting more at stoplights. No danger in that, but real annoying since they never notice the light changing.

My Legacy will beep and display a message "vehicle in front has moved" (or something similar).

Yep, Mrs. j's. new Subie has that feature. I got a kick out of that the first time I saw it. I never heard of that before, not even in here. I wonder if any of the real luxo cars have that feature. If I paid over 60 grand for a car and didn't get that I'd have to wonder what kind of a wannabe I just got screwed with. :@

jmonroe

I don't have to be woken up when the light changes....I still have my wits about me......probably because I don't fill my brain with useless Jeopardy information.

Man, I think I hit a sore spot. From that response, I'd say you must have a wannabe luxo.

jmonroe

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

venture said:

stickguy said:

I see texting more at stoplights. No danger in that, but real annoying since they never notice the light changing.

My Legacy will beep and display a message "vehicle in front has moved" (or something similar).

Yep, Mrs. j's. new Subie has that feature. I got a kick out of that the first time I saw it. I never heard of that before, not even in here. I wonder if any of the real luxo cars have that feature. If I paid over 60 grand for a car and didn't get that I'd have to wonder what kind of a wannabe I just got screwed with. :@

jmonroe

I don't have to be woken up when the light changes....I still have my wits about me......probably because I don't fill my brain with useless Jeopardy information.

Man, I think I hit a sore spot. From that response, I'd say you must have a wannabe luxo.

jmonroe

No, it is the real thing, and it is such a pleasure to drive that I want to feel and experience the drive....I don't need a nanny device to make me stay awake.

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

I see texting more at stoplights. No danger in that, but real annoying since they never notice the light changing.

My Legacy will beep and display a message "vehicle in front has moved" (or something similar).

Yep, Mrs. j's. new Subie has that feature. I got a kick out of that the first time I saw it. I never heard of that before, not even in here. I wonder if any of the real luxo cars have that feature. If I paid over 60 grand for a car and didn't get that I'd have to wonder what kind of a wannabe I just got screwed with. :@ jmonroe

I don't have to be woken up when the light changes....I still have my wits about me......probably because I don't fill my brain with useless Jeopardy information.

Man, I think I hit a sore spot. From that response, I'd say you must have a wannabe luxo. jmonroe

No, it is the real thing, and it is such a pleasure to drive that I want to feel and experience the drive....I don't need a nanny device to make me stay awake.

Just what I thought. Now who owns a wannabe ? 

jmonroe

driver100

Hey JM, You should go to an MB dealer, say you are thinking of trading in the wannabe....and take a test drive so you can experience 'The Real Thing". Tell us what you think.

ruking1

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

No doubt owning any car for over 10 years will always be cheaper than consistently buying/leasing new.

It probably will, but will it always start when you have an important job interview, will it breakdown on the way to your daughters wedding, will the transmission fall out on the way to a friends funeral, will it stall out on the highway on a 300 mile trip?

Reliability is worth a lot too. You could still end up paying more if you lose your job because your car won't start in the morning several times. Plus down time in the garage. A new car allows you many years of trouble free driving, and you have a good start at maintaining it properly.

I consistently take cars to ten years and never had any of those issues. Unless you're driving 20k or more miles a year 10 years of driving isn't a lot of miles for modern cars. Any decent car can do it and do it reliably.

Government statistics indicate the average age of the (PVF) passenger vehicle fleet @ 11.5 years old. I consistently take cars PAST 10 ten years. However more importantly, take cars PAST 200,000 miles, with little unscheduled maintenance issues. As you say, any decent car can do it & do it reliably. The other part of the formula @ 250,000 + is to leave value to/for the next buyer. Then, anybody can do a (cost per mile driven) CPMD: DEPRECIATION.

However, there are a few doubt & confusion advocates on this board.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

But how do you know they did the inspection?

Becuase they said so and they never lie

Steve Letho has a few videos about CPOs I linked one of them above.

I watched the video and I don't agree completely. When we got the 2014 C250 it was 3 1/2 years old. Everything worked as stated. If you buy a used car without a warranty you could find that bulbs are burned out, the radio doesn't work, a door lock isn't working. I didn't have to worry about those things...and if it wasn't right they would have to fix it. Next, he claims the dealer checks the boxes but the warranty is between the manufacturer and the customer. How long will MB let a dealer sell used cars if they keep coming back because they weren't properly inspected? You do pay a premium, and maybe the system isn't perfect, but, if CPO is a scam, they won't get repeat customers - and without repeat customers they won't end up with much of a business. I think Stevo has a little racket going on there trying to drum up some business....do lawyers always tell the truth?

how long will MB let the dealer sell used cars? I dont think MB has a say in that. But beyond that, as long as the dealership is selling the warranties (let's face it CPO is just marketing an upscale warranty) and their warranty costs dont get to high I dont think they care. Especially if they are high volume dealers in new cars sales. MB cant make money if they dont move cars.

As for Lehto trying to drum up business, I do think he stated that he really couldn't help in those situations.  I dont see how he could benefit from lying.

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

Hey JM, You should go to an MB dealer, say you are thinking of trading in the wannabe....and take a test drive so you can experience 'The Real Thing". Tell us what you think.

Is it OK to wait until MB can match the warranty period of the one I have? 

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright

driver100 said:

stickguy
I have a mental divide between "new" cars and "old" cars. Probably going back to my youth when I had an endless series of, well, junkers and well-worn cheapies.

I see it the same way stick! Nothing wrong with used or new....depends on various factors. But, a lot of people assume driving a used car WILL save them money. My point is unless you know what you are doing, and you have some luck, you COULD end up paying more for a used car, especially over an 8 or 10 year window.

In my mind, old cars are to be viewed like bank accounts--if the previous owner made deposits over the years, there's going to be value there, even at 200K miles. But if they've mostly make withdrawals, then the car is bankrupt at 200K miles.

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

Hey JM, You should go to an MB dealer, say you are thinking of trading in the wannabe....and take a test drive so you can experience 'The Real Thing". Tell us what you think.

Is it OK to wait until MB can match the warranty period of the one I have? 

jmonroe

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.
10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:

snakeweasel said:

But how do you know they did the inspection?

Becuase they said so and they never lie

Steve Letho has a few videos about CPOs I linked one of them above.

I watched the video and I don't agree completely. When we got the 2014 C250 it was 3 1/2 years old. Everything worked as stated. If you buy a used car without a warranty you could find that bulbs are burned out, the radio doesn't work, a door lock isn't working. I didn't have to worry about those things...and if it wasn't right they would have to fix it.
Next, he claims the dealer checks the boxes but the warranty is between the manufacturer and the customer. How long will MB let a dealer sell used cars if they keep coming back because they weren't properly inspected?
You do pay a premium, and maybe the system isn't perfect, but, if CPO is a scam, they won't get repeat customers - and without repeat customers they won't end up with much of a business.
I think Stevo has a little racket going on there trying to drum up some business....do lawyers always tell the truth?

how long will MB let the dealer sell used cars? I dont think MB has a say in that. But beyond that, as long as the dealership is selling the warranties (let's face it CPO is just marketing an upscale warranty) and their warranty costs dont get to high I dont think they care. Especially if they are high volume dealers in new cars sales. MB cant make money if they dont move cars.

As for Lehto trying to drum up business, I do think he stated that he really couldn't help in those situations.  I dont see how he could benefit from lying

.

MB has complete control over their dealers....and dealers better stay up to standard. Their used car business would tank if they tried to pawn off lemon CPO cars.

About Lehto, do you think he makes videos for the good of his health? He makes them so if you have a problem with your car he will be the go to guy. A lot of that video was filler and his general opinions, which have some truth to them, but aren't 100% true...IMHO.

My daughter liked this anti-capitalistic speaker guy. So, I look him up and of course you can buy his book or hire him to speak at your university. If he is anti-capitalistic how come he is hawking whatever he can.....because he loves people?

tjc78

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.

You ever wonder why they don't? I'll tell you why... because they know how much it would cost them!!!

ruking1

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

Hey JM, You should go to an MB dealer, say you are thinking of trading in the wannabe....and take a test drive so you can experience 'The Real Thing". Tell us what you think.

Is it OK to wait until MB can match the warranty period of the one I have? 

jmonroe

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.
10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.

MB has a long established reputation for both expensive, out of warranty & quirky unscheduled maintenance issues. It makes all the sense to have as short a warranty as possible. (consistent with current goals)

Toyota/Lexus, Honda, are other examples carrying “short” warranties. Conversely the three examples have long established reputations for reliability and durability.

driver100

tjc78 said:

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.

You ever wonder why they don't? I'll tell you why... because they know how much it would cost them!!!

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

tjc78

Wonderful cars. I'd drive one, but there is plenty of data showing that they are more expensive to maintain and repair than many other makes.

Why are you fighting this? The data supports it.

I'll tell you what...we could prove it pretty quickly.

Go to any extended warranty company and get quotes on say a 2012 Mercedes E-class and then a 2012 Chevy Impala.

Which do you think will cost more and why?

ruking1

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.

You ever wonder why they don't? I'll tell you why... because they know how much it would cost them!!!

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

Well let’s start with why a demographic (somebody like ...you) would buy a new Mercedes Benz. Some that have S models and sell it shortly after the first oil change, that I would do?

ruking1

tjc78 said:

Wonderful cars. I'd drive one, but there is plenty of data showing that they are more expensive to maintain and repair than many other makes.

Why are you fighting this? The data supports it.

I'll tell you what...we could prove it pretty quickly.

Go to any extended warranty company and get quotes on say a 2012 Mercedes E-class and then a 2012 Chevy Impala.

Which do you think will cost more and why?

Indeed. MB, BMW, VW, are truly NOT so called “appliance” machines. There are huge demographics that buy these cars thinking that they ARE “appliance machines” ! They are not! They have never been. Of late, all have tried to mask as “APPLIANCE” cars. So, ...some seemed truly surprised/shocked when they have to bring it in to a MB dealer’s or indy’s shop that then charges $100+ plus per hour for labor, PLUS expensive oem parts.

I have a longtime friend that loves BMWs. Indeed, he’s got four. He also has a DIY fully tooled garage & stocked to service them. So for example, he has an installed 4 point 10,000 pound commercial lift, etc., etc.

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.

You ever wonder why they don't? I'll tell you why... because they know how much it would cost them!!!

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

Glad you asked, maybe it's the "wonder"-ful badge.

jmonroe

ruking1

Ah, ...the gullible demographic?

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

driver100 said:

Hey JM, You should go to an MB dealer, say you are thinking of trading in the wannabe....and take a test drive so you can experience 'The Real Thing". Tell us what you think.

Is it OK to wait until MB can match the warranty period of the one I have? 

jmonroe

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty. 10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.

The flip side is that companies that offer 10 year warranties know their cars are reliable and that warranty claims wont be much. And that companies that only warranty their cars for three years know that they expose themselves to pricey warranty claims.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

But how do you know they did the inspection?

Becuase they said so and they never lie

Steve Letho has a few videos about CPOs I linked one of them above.

I watched the video and I don't agree completely. When we got the 2014 C250 it was 3 1/2 years old. Everything worked as stated. If you buy a used car without a warranty you could find that bulbs are burned out, the radio doesn't work, a door lock isn't working. I didn't have to worry about those things...and if it wasn't right they would have to fix it. Next, he claims the dealer checks the boxes but the warranty is between the manufacturer and the customer. How long will MB let a dealer sell used cars if they keep coming back because they weren't properly inspected? You do pay a premium, and maybe the system isn't perfect, but, if CPO is a scam, they won't get repeat customers - and without repeat customers they won't end up with much of a business. I think Stevo has a little racket going on there trying to drum up some business....do lawyers always tell the truth?

how long will MB let the dealer sell used cars? I dont think MB has a say in that. But beyond that, as long as the dealership is selling the warranties (let's face it CPO is just marketing an upscale warranty) and their warranty costs dont get to high I dont think they care. Especially if they are high volume dealers in new cars sales. MB cant make money if they dont move cars.

As for Lehto trying to drum up business, I do think he stated that he really couldn't help in those situations.  I dont see how he could benefit from lying

.

MB has complete control over their dealers....and dealers better stay up to standard. Their used car business would tank if they tried to pawn off lemon CPO cars. About Lehto, do you think he makes videos for the good of his health? He makes them so if you have a problem with your car he will be the go to guy. A lot of that video was filler and his general opinions, which have some truth to them, but aren't 100% true...IMHO. My daughter liked this anti-capitalistic speaker guy. So, I look him up and of course you can buy his book or hire him to speak at your university. If he is anti-capitalistic how come he is hawking whatever he can.....because he loves people?

MB doesnt have as much control as you think. They need dealers to push cars and the more cars they push out the more MB needs that dealer. Letho just confirms what others have told me.

I dont see letho pushing things to buy and most of his videos are about things he doesnt deal with.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty. You ever wonder why they don't? I'll tell you why... because they know how much it would cost them!!!

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

Status symbols.

dino001

driver100 said:

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.
10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.

Careful, driver. On one hand you call them "wannabe", on the other you run from a 4-year-old Benz screaming in terror of potential expenses...

roadburner

I’ve owned all but a few of my BMWs for well over 10 years and/or 100,000 miles. No real serious issues with the exception of the previously mentioned TC in the 2004 X3. I simply can’t see ditching a 4-5 year old car because of some nebulous fears about reliability. I was still taking my Club Sport on family vacations when it was over 15 years old- and it was still serving as my HPDE instructor car. 

dino001

snakeweasel said:

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

Status symbols.

Brutal, but unfortunately accurate assessment of large portion if not majority of customers. There are some people who buy it not for as a symbol, but as a product that they actually like on its merits, especially if spotless reliability is not their priority, but say certain way the car drives, certain way the dealer treats you, or that espresso bar at the customer lounge .

I have to say, I got my first Subaru in 2003 at a dealership that sells mostly luxury cars, I later serviced it at another one that was Subaru-only family owned outfit with a very honest and open culture. This was my first new car experience, very decent one. I have visited many "popular brand" dealerships since then many times and more often than not my skin just crawled and it felt like I needed a long hot shower afterwards. I didn't even have to talk to anybody, it was enough to see the setup, salespeoples' faces and displayed vehicles with their ADMs, or some silly accessories/mop&glo add-ons, etc. Then the salesperson opens their mouth and it gets even worse. Megadealers of largest Japanese or Korean brands were the worst, no doubt. When you enter a Toyota, Honda, or Kia store, there is something in the air that makes those places fairly unpleasant. Not all of them, but enough of those here in my area. I never had that feeling at upscale dealers, whether Benz, BMW, Lexus, or even Volvo, or those several Subaru places I frequented. There I felt like a customer, not a piece of meat.

ruking1

dino001 said:

snakeweasel said:

If they are that bad and unreliable....I wonder why people buy them?

Status symbols.

Brutal, but unfortunately accurate assessment of large portion if not majority of customers. There are some people who buy it not for as a symbol, but as a product that they actually like on its merits, especially if spotless reliability is not their priority, but say certain way the car drives, certain way the dealer treats you, or that espresso bar at the customer lounge .

I have to say, I got my first Subaru in 2003 at a dealership that sells mostly luxury cars, I later serviced it at another one that was Subaru-only family owned outfit with a very honest and open culture. This was my first new car experience, very decent one. I have visited many "popular brand" dealerships since then many times and more often than not my skin just crawled and it felt like I needed a long hot shower afterwards. I didn't even have to talk to anybody, it was enough to see the setup, salespeoples' faces and displayed vehicles with their ADMs, or some silly accessories/mop&glo add-ons, etc. Then the salesperson opens their mouth and it gets even worse. Megadealers of largest Japanese or Korean brands were the worst, no doubt. When you enter a Toyota, Honda, or Kia store, there is something in the air that makes those places fairly unpleasant. Not all of them, but enough of those here in my area. I never had that feeling at upscale dealers, whether Benz, BMW, Lexus, or even Volvo, or those several Subaru places I frequented. There I felt like a customer, not a piece of meat.


Yes, There can be no doubt that MB’s are/can be bought for status symbols.

I would NOT put my wife, daughters in an UNreliable, UNdurable car. But really Its not a real concern as existing MB & other tow services are very very good.

So for one example, I bought the (new) 2014 MB GLK 250 BT. The twin turbo 2.1 diesel engine/bullet proof 7 speed A/T 369 # ft torque were some of the main draws. It has been reliable & durable & @ app 81,000 miles NO UNscheduled maintenance. I did have the windshield wiper blades changed. Batteries have a tendency to not last beyond 4 years, so it was changed @ the 5th year. The OEM runflat tires lasted roughly 76,000 miles. The replacement tires got it’s 5,000 mile rotation @ app 81,000 miles. Alignment is spot on. -

So yes, I like the bagels and coffee, @ the local MB dealer. I like being able to look at the new crop of cars. I’m fine seeing the person that sold the MB to me & talking to the GM. The most instructive are the dealer financing options and specials: local, fleet wide. The Wi-Fi works very well. The customer rooms are very clean. They will also pick up and deliver your car to your house or office if you do not want to come. They will also pick up and deliver a replacement car to pick up your car for service. You can be shuttled/picked up, both ways. They will schedule a N/C replacement car. You can also put the car in line to get it washed and detailed without having to do an expensive maintenance.

driver100

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty.
10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.

Careful, driver. On one hand you call them "wannabe", on the other you run from a 4-year-old Benz screaming in terror of potential expenses...

I like the 4 year old C250....no problems. I would always be on guard if I owned a 4 year old anything......I normally would start looking around year 5 max. I trust the 4 year old C250 about as much as I would trust anything.