Honda Accord loses me @ CVT. I know the Honda’s AT was never a strong link. However the 2004 Honda Civic posted app 250,000 miles @ selling.
Honda had a reputation for weak auto trannys about a decade ago but I haven't heard anything bad about them lately. As far as I know their CVTs haven’t been a problem either. Toyota has their Aisin CVT which is also good. It’s the Jatco CVTs used in Hyundai, Nissan, Kia and Mitsu that seems to be troublesome. The only transmission that blew up on me over the hundreds of cars I’ve driven was a CVT in a Nissan Altima.
One of the reasons I bought a 2019 Kia instead of a 2020 was because the newer car changed to a CVT.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Honda Accord loses me @ CVT. I know the Honda’s AT was never a strong link. However the 2004 Honda Civic posted app 250,000 miles @ selling.
Honda had a reputation for weak auto trannys about a decade ago but I haven't heard anything bad about them lately. As far as I know their CVTs haven’t been a problem either. Toyota has their Aisin CVT which is also good. It’s the Jatco CVTs used in Hyundai, Nissan, Kia and Mitsu that seems to be troublesome. The only transmission that blew up on me over the hundreds of cars I’ve driven was a CVT in a Nissan Altima.
One of the reasons I bought a 2019 Kia instead of a 2020 was because the newer car changed to a CVT.
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
The Honda dealerships general sales manager gave a good/great deal. Due to what I had researched, the Civic would be good from mile 4 to app 300,000. He basically gave it to me for the 3 day weekend and asked if I would bring it back on Monday. It was never my intention to get another Civic, but the much preferred 2003 (VW Jetta TDI) AT was known to be problematic. The wife was tired of shifting the TDI’s MT in commute traffic. Later model Hondas’ reliability and durability are known to be ...spotty.
That Honda dealerships general sales manager in 2004, is now the MB’s dealerships GM. He recognized me straight away.
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
Yes/No. It was bought for (a purpose) daily commute traffic (& run about/back up on weekends).
A TMI WAS that it had bullet proof DRUM/SHOES rear brakes. They lasted beyond 250,000 miles The front disc brakes pads & rotors barely lasted 105,000 miles.
An OCI took a $2. WalMart oil filter & 2.4 qt of Mobil1 0w/5w-20 oil & copper washer every 20,000 miles. It really was a commute trooper.
I am sure someone loves it, and it is a reliable vehicle, but 250K in an 04 Civic, I say "that's a hard no". Life is too short. I'll cut out another frivolity somewhere to have a car I enjoy.
I am sure someone loves it, and it is a reliable vehicle, but 250K in an 04 Civic, I say "that's a hard no". Life is too short. I'll cut out another frivolity somewhere to have a car I enjoy.
Indeed! Again, there seems to be WAY different purpose/s, commuting vs (yours seems to be) pleasure, pleasure of high end ownership, convenience & less than 9k miles per year, for less than 36 mo/3 yrs.?
For approximately four years, we put 25,000 miles per year on a 2003 VW Jetta TDI MT for girls high school/club basketball, etc. The TDI ranged between 48-52 mpg. I’d only get 48 mpg cruising@ 90+ mph. During this time, the Civic did 17,900 miles per year. So for example to make this both easier & scaleable, per 100,000 miles: 50 mpg, 2,000 gal@ $4.09 per/38 mpg, 2,632 gal@ $ 4.03 per.
I realized the TDI was capable of getting 59 miles a gallon at app 75 mph on a couple trips to WA/OR state while the WHP/OHP were running speeding entrapment stops. (aka., revenue enhancements) the radar detector seemed to go off @ every other curve or dip for two states. There would be one control car/van with radar guns shot, sending 3 to 4 pursuit cars/bikes in both direction. 75 mph 😴zzzzzzz in the #2/2 lanes seemed to do the trick. The LEO massings seemed to cause extremely dangerous highway situations in both directions.
My best tank was 62 mpg but @ mind numbing speeds. (aka. When the septic tank cleaning truck passes you..... Really,..... this ain’t no S🤐)
We put a little less mileage on the Toyota Land Cruiser’s for volleyball club & high school.😎
I'd take Scotty Kilmer's MB advice just after I take advice from my 8 year old niece on how to build a hadron collider. His dream world is full of 1994 Corollas, he is full of weird bias and inaccuracy.
Plenty of miled up MBs out there, but as the non-diesels don't tend to be mpg winners, they won't be used in long distance commutes. Most people with the $$$ to acquire the 6 figure ones new seem to live closer to work, as well. Life is too short to sit for hours a day in a commute, IMO. People do it here too, as it is a more affordable way to "own" a house.
I'd rather put the miles on the Jetta than an 04 Civic, I think, nicer surroundings. I could pull mid 40s in my 4000 lb AWD E250. That, or your GLK or another diesel MB might be the way to go. Comfort.
Indeed! Again, there seems to be WAY different purpose/s, commuting vs (yours seems to be) pleasure, pleasure of high end ownership, convenience & less than 9k miles per year, for less than 36 mo/3 yrs.?
For approximately four years, we put 25,000 miles per year on a 2003 VW Jetta TDI MT for girls high school/club basketball, etc. The TDI ranged between 48-52 mpg. I’d only get 48 mpg cruising@ 90+ mph. During this time, the Civic did 17,900 miles per year. So for example to make this both easier & scaleable, per 100,000 miles: 50 mpg, 2,000 gal@ $4.09 per/38 mpg, 2,632 gal@ $ 4.03 per.
I'd take Scotty Kilmer's MB advice just after I take advice from my 8 year old niece on how to build a hadron collider. His dream world is full of 1994 Corollas, he is full of weird bias and inaccuracy.
Plenty of miled up MBs out there, but as the non-diesels don't tend to be mpg winners, they won't be used in long distance commutes. Most people with the $$$ to acquire the 6 figure ones new seem to live closer to work, as well. Life is too short to sit for hours a day in a commute, IMO. People do it here too, as it is a more affordable way to "own" a house.
I'd rather put the miles on the Jetta than an 04 Civic, I think, nicer surroundings. I could pull mid 40s in my 4000 lb AWD E250. That, or your GLK or another diesel MB might be the way to go. Comfort.
Indeed! Again, there seems to be WAY different purpose/s, commuting vs (yours seems to be) pleasure, pleasure of high end ownership, convenience & less than 9k miles per year, for less than 36 mo/3 yrs.?
For approximately four years, we put 25,000 miles per year on a 2003 VW Jetta TDI MT for girls high school/club basketball, etc. The TDI ranged between 48-52 mpg. I’d only get 48 mpg cruising@ 90+ mph. During this time, the Civic did 17,900 miles per year. So for example to make this both easier & scaleable, per 100,000 miles: 50 mpg, 2,000 gal@ $4.09 per/38 mpg, 2,632 gal@ $ 4.03 per.
Yes, I haven’t had to commute @ all since 2001. I’m not all that moved to go to Toyota/Lexus, but it’s not just Kilmer recommending them. All I want is just a good V8 TDI. 🤓 Toyota/Lexus makes a great 4.5 L V8.TDI, but not for US markets & not in models I’d want. We’ve been pretty to real happy with the 2.1 L TT, 4 cylinder diesel @ 36 mpg.
Moving to the so called high end areas near current “work” , takes about the same commute times due to nearly a stop sign/signal, etc. @ nearly every block. Quaint access roads leading to areas we would have considered & have lived before can be clogged for 30 min or more.
Disturbing news about Honda’s intentions. I’m like @henryn in that I would rather not get a sunroof, but I gave in on all the Honda’s I have owned, because I like the EX trim. But, black interior is a showstopper, especially since I live in Texas. Good point by @berri that Honda needs to concentrate on getting their reliability back up or else there won’t be any reason to even consider one.
“I'd take Scotty Kilmer's MB advice just after I take advice from my 8 year old niece on how to build a hadron collider. His dream world is full of 1994 Corollas, he is full of weird bias and inaccuracy.”
So you wouldn’t try Scotty’s advice on cleaning a catalytic converter?
Yes/No on two counts. 1. No real magic to how a catalytic converter actually works. 1b. However when people treat things like hands off appliances... 2. it’s actually it’s been known to diesel people that 2,100 to 2, 500 RPM is really the sweet spot for operation. 2b. The other sweet spot for operation is to run a car for at least 45 min to one hour.
Diesel TMI DEF is used to prior to the catalytic converter to lessen the stuff causing pollution.
Well, there are also people that don't want to own an American car in warranty, unless it comes with a concierge pickup and drop off service to handle all the warranty claims, complete with a loaner program that has cars that actually run.
I call foul. This has crossed the line on stereotyping. Gimme a break.
I call "I stand by the comment."
I didn't say all people, just that there are a group of people that fit into this category I describe above, summarized by the term "BURNED Former Customers" never to be a customer again.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
No doubt owning any car for over 10 years will always be cheaper than consistently buying/leasing new.
It probably will, but will it always start when you have an important job interview, will it breakdown on the way to your daughters wedding, will the transmission fall out on the way to a friends funeral, will it stall out on the highway on a 300 mile trip?
Reliability is worth a lot too. You could still end up paying more if you lose your job because your car won't start in the morning several times. Plus down time in the garage. A new car allows you many years of trouble free driving, and you have a good start at maintaining it properly.
You must have missed the recent article on Jalopnik about that "brand new" and anything but trouble-free FCA product.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
andres3 Great dealership, but still keeps me away from Ford for I'd like decent paint with my car, or my car with decent paint please
Andre, you can score more points by not making unsubstantiated statements....and using opinion as facts. There is nothing to indicate Ford uses inferior paint. Ford, GM, VW, Nissan, Mazda, Chrysler.....they all make decent cars these days and they suit the people who buy them.......sometimes just because of cost. Many brands probably use the same or similar paint. If you make a statement back it up......or put on your signature line: "These are the express opinions of me only"
Acknowledged, but this wasn't the first anecdotal story of major problems on a Ford product either, and Neon's were known for faulty paint jobs too (particularly on the bumpers).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Wonderful cars. I'd drive one, but there is plenty of data showing that they are more expensive to maintain and repair than many other makes.
Why are you fighting this? The data supports it.
I'll tell you what...we could prove it pretty quickly.
Go to any extended warranty company and get quotes on say a 2012 Mercedes E-class and then a 2012 Chevy Impala.
Which do you think will cost more and why?
I'd argue many of those extended warranty companies seem to have no intention of paying out on claims, and probably don't plan on being in business by the time you have a claim.
I know the Big 3 were not setting up sheltered accounts of money prior to their bankruptcies and bailouts to cover customer's future warranties. They had no intention of honoring those warranties. The President of the USA and government had to vouch that they'd honor the warranties. Where do you think the Government's money comes from?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Cheapest factory extended warranties I've run into over the years have been for Toyota. Probably depends on the dealer to some extent. I'd suspect Southeast Toyota Distributor dealers would not be cheap!
We had a newer F-150 today as our chase vehicle and the back seat was rather large and very comfortable for three of us. I can see why so many folks buy these trucks now as the insides are like nice cars and one has the hauling capacity out back. A perfect vehicle for many. Will be interesting to see how Honda does what it says it wants to do. Sunroofs/moonroofs are great, we each have one, but not workable for many. I use mine when it's cooler outside while the A3's has never been opened, personal preference I guess. Waiting to see what they do with the new HR-V as I do like it and with a few fixes, could be on my short list. Drove that small Toyota CX-R again today and I had a blast! The tranny/4 cylinder engine are a great combination and sound so much better going up the power band than the 4 cylinder ones from Hyundai/Kia. Had plenty of passing power when needed, it was fun to get behind the wheel. Gave me the same perpetual grin that my Golf gives me now, and for a small moment there, wanted to go over to the Toyota store and price out one. Would want to look at a unit with alloys and a sunroof if possible, a base model is nice, but would rather spend a bit more to get the best they got. And no black interior as it's plain too dark back there. A back seat isn't something I really need as it's only me in there 90% of the time anyways. The size is perfect for my limited garage parking situation.
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Hey JM, You should go to an MB dealer, say you are thinking of trading in the wannabe....and take a test drive so you can experience 'The Real Thing". Tell us what you think.
Is it OK to wait until MB can match the warranty period of the one I have?
jmonroe
MB doesn't need to have an extra long warranty....people will buy them with a regular 3 year warranty. 10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.
The flip side is that companies that offer 10 year warranties know their cars are reliable and that warranty claims wont be much. And that companies that only warranty their cars for three years know that they expose themselves to pricey warranty claims.
Since one of the companies you like "Chrysler" is known for previous "lifetime" warranties, and also having multiple bankruptcy bailouts, I find that flip side to be a very weak argument.
I think worse than knowing how much a warranty will cost, is not knowing, and/or not caring one bit about it!!!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Still no word from Enterprise and my application. Said they'd call within 5 or so business days but so far, nothing. The closer location is the main reason I applied. Did stop by their corporate office here in Coconut Creek Florida but was told to go to their website and fill out the app under their "Careers" button, just like I did for Hertz. If they call, fine and if not, that's fine to but why advertise in Indeed.com if there's zero follow-up down the line. I did apply a couple years back down at the Ft. Lauderdale airport location and was approved by the hiring manager but a few things didn't sound right to me, so I never went forward with my employment. This new position is for similar work but in a different location, closer to our home. And the reason for any of this is to get closer to home and cut my daily commute. If I hear nothing by Tuesday, might call the location where they wanted me to work and inquire there. Sure it's less $, but the savings from no more tolls plus the extra petrol needed would cancel that out. And they only want 25 hours/week with one weekend day, not a big deal really. One day is like another to be honest at this point.
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Wonderful cars. I'd drive one, but there is plenty of data showing that they are more expensive to maintain and repair than many other makes.
Why are you fighting this? The data supports it.
I'll tell you what...we could prove it pretty quickly.
Go to any extended warranty company and get quotes on say a 2012 Mercedes E-class and then a 2012 Chevy Impala.
Which do you think will cost more and why?
If you are asking me, I don't believe I would actually claim that a Mercedes is going to cost less to own over 8 to 10 years....since the E costs twice what an Impala costs, I would assume parts are about double and since the mechanics have to be MB certified repairs cost more. I think the original discussion was about weather an MB or BMW would last for 200k miles at a resonable cost....and I gave roadrunners X3 as an example.
I find talk of "American" cars being cheap to repair to be in some Fantasy lala land.
I don't remember any of the Neon's repairs to be "cheap" at all. Extremely inconvenient too, disregarding cost completely. Of course, I live in CA, land of high labor rates since at least before I was born.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Another thing I am concerned about is an electronics problem happening...when the car is out of warranty. Electronics are similar in all cars these days, and they can be costly to repair. I wonder how much Monroe's nanny warning telling him traffic has started moving would cost to fix? MBs have got more gizmos than most D3 cars....but, most cars have very sophisticated electronic devices these days, and I have a suspicion they these devices will be expensive to fix. You know how we used to fix a broken TV, but now when it doesn't work we toss it out and buy a new one? That may start happening with cars. The washing machine that used to last 25 years, now lasts 8 years. We will see. Wasn't the cost of getting a convertible roof to work about $3000?
A new key was going to cost me $600, but one guy said a key for his Nissan Murano was $400.....electronics and gizmos could become very costly to fix...for all makes.
No the cost of getting the convertible roof to work was a bit under a grand, but there were other things that needed attention that brings the grand total to just over $3k.
Just to add a footnote, my indie mechanic said he can do all the work sans the top for about 20% less than the dealer. He also noted that getting 150k on the odometer (currently has 136k) should be no issue if I don't do anything to it. That should take through to next fall.
For me, "no issue = $0." You shoud make that mechanic sign on the dotted line for that to get your car to 150K is now his responsibility financially.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I really don't think reliability wise there is all that much difference between makes these days. Sure, there are some loser models (from US, Asia and Europe), but if you look at things like Consumer Reports, they are now often recommending models that rate average, not just above average. I believe that just demonstrates that even in just the last 5 or 6 years, vehicles are just getting closer to each other. The statistics are the statistics. So unless the vehicle really stands out as a loser, buy what you want and don't worry about it.
I think the 4cyl models were fine, but that era V6 had awful transmissions. I think Honda paint quality was also iffy then. The LeSabre would have been a much smoother ride, as intended.
My uncle had a 98 or 99 (I forget) LeSabre he bought as a late model used car, and miled it up to maybe 160K or so, can't recall. I helped him sell it on CL. It was pretty reliable, but did suffer from the dexcool manifold gasket issue. He had it fixed and continued to drive it. It sold to the first looker in a couple days. He was fond of the car, but my grandma gave him a very low mileage Vulcan Taurus, so he moved to the newer lower mileage car.
Interesting. I looked at those when I was shopping for my car in 02. The sample I drove popped when twisted going down the apron from the dealer lot to the street. It drove like the tires were overinflated to 50 psi. I had lots of road noise. My intuition told me it wasn't comparable to the leSabre I was considering.
I only kept my Accord coupe V6 from '03 for 50 months and 65K miles, but at that point I sold it, it looked and ran like new.
The only complaint that was "out of the norm" was the Transmission failure, which Honda paid for completely. The paint looked very good. I'd have had no doubts about that car going triple the mileage I sold it at.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The truth is that every car on the road is a money pit. They are not investments. You can drive a car, new or used, for several years and spend nothing on maintenance and still lose your shirt. On some you just lose less/more money than on others. We buy them because we like them. New, shiny, smell good, and they are fun.
The real question is how to keep operating costs as low as possible. Another is to keep the amount of depreciation (CPMD: depreciation) as low as possible. There are VERY few used cars that sell for more than the new car purchase price. Anybody that thinks the car is an investment has either been lied to or doesn’t know what an investment is.
Having said that, I’ve sold back (to the OEM) two used cars that paid me slightly more that what I paid (new), with mileage on it (app 190,000 miles). So in fact, I got paid to put mileage on them. One can make cars a business but those are paths’ most normal folks do not go down.
What do you say to the people that say depreciation or resale value is meaningless because they keep their cars forever (not me)?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The truth is that every car on the road is a money pit. They are not investments. You can drive a car, new or used, for several years and spend nothing on maintenance and still lose your shirt. On some you just lose less/more money than on others. We buy them because we like them. New, shiny, smell good, and they are fun.
The real question is how to keep operating costs as low as possible. Another is to keep the amount of depreciation (CPMD: depreciation) as low as possible. There are VERY few used cars that sell for more than the new car purchase price. Anybody that thinks the car is an investment has either been lied to or doesn’t know what an investment is.
Having said that, I’ve sold back (to the OEM) two used cars that paid me slightly more that what I paid (new), with mileage on it (app 190,000 miles). So in fact, I got paid to put mileage on them. One can make cars a business but those are paths’ most normal folks do not go down.
What do you say to the people that say depreciation or resale value is meaningless because they keep their cars forever (not me)?
It would be hard to say, there’s not even hypothetical, to no real data.
Still no word from Enterprise and my application. Said they'd call within 5 or so business days but so far, nothing. The closer location is the main reason I applied. Did stop by their corporate office here in Coconut Creek Florida but was told to go to their website and fill out the app under their "Careers" button, just like I did for Hertz. If they call, fine and if not, that's fine to but why advertise in Indeed.com if there's zero follow-up down the line. I did apply a couple years back down at the Ft. Lauderdale airport location and was approved by the hiring manager but a few things didn't sound right to me, so I never went forward with my employment. This new position is for similar work but in a different location, closer to our home. And the reason for any of this is to get closer to home and cut my daily commute. If I hear nothing by Tuesday, might call the location where they wanted me to work and inquire there. Sure it's less $, but the savings from no more tolls plus the extra petrol needed would cancel that out. And they only want 25 hours/week with one weekend day, not a big deal really. One day is like another to be honest at this point.
One of our long time drivers just retired to N. Fort Myers and had no problem getting a position with Enterprise there. Could it be that not following through on your previous application made them think you’re not serious?
I applied with both Hertz and Enterprise at the same time. Hertz didn’t respond until I had been at Enterprise for a month. Maybe they just build up a resume’ folder until they have an opening.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
Yes, both the Jetta TDI and the Civic seats were very comfortable for longer distance travel.
“I'd take Scotty Kilmer's MB advice just after I take advice from my 8 year old niece on how to build a hadron collider. His dream world is full of 1994 Corollas, he is full of weird bias and inaccuracy.”
So you wouldn’t try Scotty’s advice on cleaning a catalytic converter?
Another thing I am concerned about is an electronics problem happening...when the car is out of warranty. Electronics are similar in all cars these days, and they can be costly to repair. I wonder how much Monroe's nanny warning telling him traffic has started moving would cost to fix? MBs have got more gizmos than most D3 cars....but, most cars have very sophisticated electronic devices these days, and I have a suspicion they these devices will be expensive to fix. You know how we used to fix a broken TV, but now when it doesn't work we toss it out and buy a new one? That may start happening with cars. The washing machine that used to last 25 years, now lasts 8 years. We will see. Wasn't the cost of getting a convertible roof to work about $3000?
A new key was going to cost me $600, but one guy said a key for his Nissan Murano was $400.....electronics and gizmos could become very costly to fix...for all makes.
No the cost of getting the convertible roof to work was a bit under a grand, but there were other things that needed attention that brings the grand total to just over $3k.
Just to add a footnote, my indie mechanic said he can do all the work sans the top for about 20% less than the dealer. He also noted that getting 150k on the odometer (currently has 136k) should be no issue if I don't do anything to it. That should take through to next fall.
For me, "no issue = $0." You shoud make that mechanic sign on the dotted line for that to get your car to 150K is now his responsibility financially.
He didn't say no issue with the repairs, he said no issue as the car now stands sans repairs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
Yes, both the Jetta TDI and the Civic seats were very comfortable for longer distance travel.
Well define longer distance. His 75 mile commute was in rural Illinois and was 98% Interstate highway. At that time my commute was 23 or so miles on surface roads through suburban Chicago, he could make his commute faster than I could make mine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
Yes, both the Jetta TDI and the Civic seats were very comfortable for longer distance travel.
Well define longer distance. His 75 mile commute was in rural Illinois and was 98% Interstate highway. At that time my commute was 23 or so miles on surface roads through suburban Chicago, he could make his commute faster than I could make mine.
1,100 miles/700 miles respectively were the longest. Pit/fuel stop/s were made of course.
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
Yes, both the Jetta TDI and the Civic seats were very comfortable for longer distance travel.
Well define longer distance. His 75 mile commute was in rural Illinois and was 98% Interstate highway. At that time my commute was 23 or so miles on surface roads through suburban Chicago, he could make his commute faster than I could make mine.
1,100 miles/700 miles respectively were the longest. Pit/fuel stop/s were made of course.
Longest for me was just under 2100 miles Seattle to Chicago in around 27 hours. There were 3 of us driving in shifts straight through. Longest solo was just under 1000 miles Denver to Chicago. Longest non interstate drive was just under 500 miles Nashville to Chicago, that took close to 16 hours but I stopped for sight seeing along the way.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well it didn't rain so I took my new mower out to finish the lawn. For a pull start mower it takes very little effort to get it going. Moves well over the lawn and mowing was effortless. Should have gotten a new one sooner.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
Yes, both the Jetta TDI and the Civic seats were very comfortable for longer distance travel.
Well define longer distance. His 75 mile commute was in rural Illinois and was 98% Interstate highway. At that time my commute was 23 or so miles on surface roads through suburban Chicago, he could make his commute faster than I could make mine.
1,100 miles/700 miles respectively were the longest. Pit/fuel stop/s were made of course.
Longest for me was just under 2100 miles Seattle to Chicago in around 27 hours. There were 3 of us driving in shifts straight through. Longest solo was just under 1000 miles Denver to Chicago. Longest non interstate drive was just under 500 miles Nashville to Chicago, that took close to 16 hours but I stopped for sight seeing along the way.
I’ve always have loved road trips! I have to say that my most comfortable long distance seats are in the 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 !
Honda should be able to consolidate trim levels without too much trouble. merge the LX and EX, and the ELX and Touring. tweak the equipment levels to end up in the middle of each pairing. Means no more strippo LX (stripped being a relative term these days). Might need a 3rd model to split the difference (maybe add leather but no moonroof to a Plus model?). Or just add leather as an optional interior, no extra model needed.
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
Yes, both the Jetta TDI and the Civic seats were very comfortable for longer distance travel.
Well define longer distance. His 75 mile commute was in rural Illinois and was 98% Interstate highway. At that time my commute was 23 or so miles on surface roads through suburban Chicago, he could make his commute faster than I could make mine.
1,100 miles/700 miles respectively were the longest. Pit/fuel stop/s were made of course.
Longest for me was just under 2100 miles Seattle to Chicago in around 27 hours. There were 3 of us driving in shifts straight through. Longest solo was just under 1000 miles Denver to Chicago. Longest non interstate drive was just under 500 miles Nashville to Chicago, that took close to 16 hours but I stopped for sight seeing along the way.
I’ve always have loved road trips! I have to say that my most comfortable long distance seats are in the 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 !
For me the most comfortable long distance seats were on the flight from Amsterdam.... oh wait that was the booze that made it comfortable. Never mind.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The 2004 Honda Civic average miles per yr was app 17,900. The mpg ranged between 38 mpg to 42 mpg. None in the family (4) ever liked it, but me. I seldom drove it.
There is something inherently wrong with that statement. 300,000 miles, at say an average speed of 40 mph (probably a high number, but good enough for this purpose) -- that gives you 7,500 hours spent in a car that you did not like.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
I know someone who put as many miles or more over two cars he didn't like. A little background info, due to circumstances a bit outside his control he ended up with a 75 mile one way commute, so he bought a bare bones inexpensive car to make that commute. He put around 200k on one car before he replaced it with a second of the same car. A Ford escort IIRC. According to him he wasn't about to spend more money on a car that he was going to put more than 35k a year on.
Yes, both the Jetta TDI and the Civic seats were very comfortable for longer distance travel.
Well define longer distance. His 75 mile commute was in rural Illinois and was 98% Interstate highway. At that time my commute was 23 or so miles on surface roads through suburban Chicago, he could make his commute faster than I could make mine.
1,100 miles/700 miles respectively were the longest. Pit/fuel stop/s were made of course.
Longest for me was just under 2100 miles Seattle to Chicago in around 27 hours. There were 3 of us driving in shifts straight through. Longest solo was just under 1000 miles Denver to Chicago. Longest non interstate drive was just under 500 miles Nashville to Chicago, that took close to 16 hours but I stopped for sight seeing along the way.
I’ve always have loved road trips! I have to say that my most comfortable long distance seats are in the 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 !
For me the most comfortable long distance seats were on the flight from Amsterdam.... oh wait that was the booze that made it comfortable. Never mind.
Honda’s trim options got out of hand. That’s how I read the announcement. Looking at the Accord, for example, I see 11 choices once you add in powertrain differences.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well it didn't rain so I took my new mower out to finish the lawn. For a pull start mower it takes very little effort to get it going. Moves well over the lawn and mowing was effortless. Should have gotten a new one sooner.
I get a new mower every three or four years. I also have a Toro now with a Honda engine. It's the 2nd Toro in a row.
Honda’s trim options got out of hand. That’s how I read the announcement. Looking at the Accord, for example, I see 11 choices once you add in powertrain differences.
To think... that is still streamlined more than most other manufacturers. Most have three or four trim levels, plus option packages, plus individual options. It's not nearly as bad as years ago, but still some models (especially trucks) have tons of combinations.
Honda’s trim options got out of hand. That’s how I read the announcement. Looking at the Accord, for example, I see 11 choices once you add in powertrain differences.
To think... that is still streamlined more than most other manufacturers. Most have three or four trim levels, plus option packages, plus individual options. It's not nearly as bad as years ago, but still some models (especially trucks) have tons of combinations.
I think a lot of that began when individual option choices began to go away. Aside from seat patterns/upholstery and exterior trim most everything used to be a la carte. Now stuff gets bundled into different models. If you want Nav, you have to buy power leather seats and a sunroof, etc. Ironically Honda started by reversing that by offering an "all inclusive" Accord way back when where your only choices were colors and transmission.
Can't wait to see what they do pre-race with Mario. I'm assuming they'll do something similar to what they did for AJ Foyt a couple of years ago. Brought all his various cars out and ran them a lap. Dirt track, stock, Indy winners, with AJ sitting in the back of a convertible.
Mario still drives the 2-seater in front of the pace car on the warmup and parade laps with some celebrity along for the ride. As they come around turn 4 to start the pace lap he stands on it down the front straight. Three years ago it was Lady Gaga riding along and you could tell that the acceleration got her attention
I know the first new car I purchased (so many cars, so long ago, a Ford Tempo), warranty was 12K/12 mos. At that, they would only offer "adjustments" for things like rough idle and stalling on the street while driving (which the Tempo did plenty of) for the first 30 days.
I believe Hyundai and Kia tried to combat the poor reliability reputation (warranted or not) with the 10/100 warranty. Now, that they're as reliable as any other brand, it's a marketing tool more than anything.
Honda.....no secret I love their products. The car vs truck vs SUV vs CUV volumes in any given year tend to be cyclical. Not if, but when oil prices artificially rise again (like it's been doing for the last several weeks), people will shift back to cars to get the good MPG over whatever pickup they have in their driveways. Ford in particular, will be caught with no offering for a public looking for fuel efficient cars.
Honda will have them, as will Toyota. Neither company is backing off their production of cars. This scenario keeps playing out over and over, again. During the first gas crisis I remember my late Father (who was driving a Chrysler New Yorker land yacht at the time) wishing he could find a fuel efficient domestic. Hondas and Corollas were selling like crazy.
Honda may be paring back the different configs of their cars, and they may miss out on a certain segment of buyers who don't like their configurations. But, they've been doing the same for decades. IF you want a Honda or a Toyota, you buy the brand and the model, not the option package.
Even the domestics have been moving away from "a la carte" options vs only 2 or 3 packages for each model. They're just easier and more efficient to produce.
Comments
One of the reasons I bought a 2019 Kia instead of a 2020 was because the newer car changed to a CVT.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The Honda dealerships general sales manager gave a good/great deal. Due to what I had researched, the Civic would be good from mile 4 to app 300,000. He basically gave it to me for the 3 day weekend and asked if I would bring it back on Monday. It was never my intention to get another Civic, but the much preferred 2003 (VW Jetta TDI) AT was known to be problematic. The wife was tired of shifting the TDI’s MT in commute traffic. Later model Hondas’ reliability and durability are known to be ...spotty.
That Honda dealerships general sales manager in 2004, is now the MB’s dealerships GM. He recognized me straight away.
I would not do that. I know very few people who would. I know a lot of people who aren't all that excited about cars, but I don't think any of them would spend 7,500 hours in a car they did not like.
A TMI WAS that it had bullet proof DRUM/SHOES rear brakes. They lasted beyond 250,000 miles The front disc brakes pads & rotors barely lasted 105,000 miles.
An OCI took a $2. WalMart oil filter & 2.4 qt of Mobil1 0w/5w-20 oil & copper washer every 20,000 miles. It really was a commute trooper.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Why no/few MB’s for commuting?
For approximately four years, we put 25,000 miles per year on a 2003 VW Jetta TDI MT for girls high school/club basketball, etc. The TDI ranged between 48-52 mpg. I’d only get 48 mpg cruising@ 90+ mph. During this time, the Civic did 17,900 miles per year. So for example to make this both easier & scaleable, per 100,000 miles: 50 mpg, 2,000 gal@ $4.09 per/38 mpg, 2,632 gal@ $ 4.03 per.
I realized the TDI was capable of getting 59 miles a gallon at app 75 mph on a couple trips to WA/OR state while the WHP/OHP were running speeding entrapment stops. (aka., revenue enhancements) the radar detector seemed to go off @ every other curve or dip for two states. There would be one control car/van with radar guns shot, sending 3 to 4 pursuit cars/bikes in both direction. 75 mph 😴zzzzzzz in the #2/2 lanes seemed to do the trick. The LEO massings seemed to cause extremely dangerous highway situations in both directions.
My best tank was 62 mpg but @ mind numbing speeds. (aka. When the septic tank cleaning truck passes you..... Really,..... this ain’t no S🤐)
We put a little less mileage on the Toyota Land Cruiser’s for volleyball club & high school.😎
Plenty of miled up MBs out there, but as the non-diesels don't tend to be mpg winners, they won't be used in long distance commutes. Most people with the $$$ to acquire the 6 figure ones new seem to live closer to work, as well. Life is too short to sit for hours a day in a commute, IMO. People do it here too, as it is a more affordable way to "own" a house.
I'd rather put the miles on the Jetta than an 04 Civic, I think, nicer surroundings. I could pull mid 40s in my 4000 lb AWD E250. That, or your GLK or another diesel MB might be the way to go. Comfort.
Moving to the so called high end areas near current “work” , takes about the same commute times due to nearly a stop sign/signal, etc. @ nearly every block. Quaint access roads leading to areas we would have considered & have lived before can be clogged for 30 min or more.
“I'd take Scotty Kilmer's MB advice just after I take advice from my 8 year old niece on how to build a hadron collider. His dream world is full of 1994 Corollas, he is full of weird bias and inaccuracy.”
So you wouldn’t try Scotty’s advice on cleaning a catalytic converter?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Diesel TMI DEF is used to prior to the catalytic converter to lessen the stuff causing pollution.
I didn't say all people, just that there are a group of people that fit into this category I describe above, summarized by the term "BURNED Former Customers" never to be a customer again.
I know the Big 3 were not setting up sheltered accounts of money prior to their bankruptcies and bailouts to cover customer's future warranties. They had no intention of honoring those warranties. The President of the USA and government had to vouch that they'd honor the warranties. Where do you think the Government's money comes from?
Will be interesting to see how Honda does what it says it wants to do. Sunroofs/moonroofs are great, we each have one, but not workable for many. I use mine when it's cooler outside while the A3's has never been opened, personal preference I guess. Waiting to see what they do with the new HR-V as I do like it and with a few fixes, could be on my short list.
Drove that small Toyota CX-R again today and I had a blast! The tranny/4 cylinder engine are a great combination and sound so much better going up the power band than the 4 cylinder ones from Hyundai/Kia. Had plenty of passing power when needed, it was fun to get behind the wheel. Gave me the same perpetual grin that my Golf gives me now, and for a small moment there, wanted to go over to the Toyota store and price out one. Would want to look at a unit with alloys and a sunroof if possible, a base model is nice, but would rather spend a bit more to get the best they got. And no black interior as it's plain too dark back there. A back seat isn't something I really need as it's only me in there 90% of the time anyways. The size is perfect for my limited garage parking situation.
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
10 year warranty is done by wannabe companies.....because they know it will help sell cars, or they will be out of business and won't have to honor the warranty anyway.
The flip side is that companies that offer 10 year warranties know their cars are reliable and that warranty claims wont be much. And that companies that only warranty their cars for three years know that they expose themselves to pricey warranty claims.
Since one of the companies you like "Chrysler" is known for previous "lifetime" warranties, and also having multiple bankruptcy bailouts, I find that flip side to be a very weak argument.
I think worse than knowing how much a warranty will cost, is not knowing, and/or not caring one bit about it!!!
I did apply a couple years back down at the Ft. Lauderdale airport location and was approved by the hiring manager but a few things didn't sound right to me, so I never went forward with my employment. This new position is for similar work but in a different location, closer to our home. And the reason for any of this is to get closer to home and cut my daily commute. If I hear nothing by Tuesday, might call the location where they wanted me to work and inquire there. Sure it's less $, but the savings from no more tolls plus the extra petrol needed would cancel that out. And they only want 25 hours/week with one weekend day, not a big deal really. One day is like another to be honest at this point.
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
I don't remember any of the Neon's repairs to be "cheap" at all. Extremely inconvenient too, disregarding cost completely. Of course, I live in CA, land of high labor rates since at least before I was born.
The only complaint that was "out of the norm" was the Transmission failure, which Honda paid for completely. The paint looked very good. I'd have had no doubts about that car going triple the mileage I sold it at.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a27396783/mario-andretti-vince-gratanelli-speeding-ticket/
I applied with both Hertz and Enterprise at the same time. Hertz didn’t respond until I had been at Enterprise for a month. Maybe they just build up a resume’ folder until they have an opening.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I’ve always have loved road trips! I have to say that my most comfortable long distance seats are in the 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 !
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
OMG!!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I hope you didn’t confuse the two.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Mario still drives the 2-seater in front of the pace car on the warmup and parade laps with some celebrity along for the ride. As they come around turn 4 to start the pace lap he stands on it down the front straight. Three years ago it was Lady Gaga riding along and you could tell that the acceleration got her attention
Only 16 days until we drive out. Can't wait!
I know the first new car I purchased (so many cars, so long ago, a Ford Tempo), warranty was 12K/12 mos. At that, they would only offer "adjustments" for things like rough idle and stalling on the street while driving (which the Tempo did plenty of) for the first 30 days.
I believe Hyundai and Kia tried to combat the poor reliability reputation (warranted or not) with the 10/100 warranty. Now, that they're as reliable as any other brand, it's a marketing tool more than anything.
Honda.....no secret I love their products. The car vs truck vs SUV vs CUV volumes in any given year tend to be cyclical. Not if, but when oil prices artificially rise again (like it's been doing for the last several weeks), people will shift back to cars to get the good MPG over whatever pickup they have in their driveways. Ford in particular, will be caught with no offering for a public looking for fuel efficient cars.
Honda will have them, as will Toyota. Neither company is backing off their production of cars. This scenario keeps playing out over and over, again. During the first gas crisis I remember my late Father (who was driving a Chrysler New Yorker land yacht at the time) wishing he could find a fuel efficient domestic. Hondas and Corollas were selling like crazy.
Honda may be paring back the different configs of their cars, and they may miss out on a certain segment of buyers who don't like their configurations. But, they've been doing the same for decades. IF you want a Honda or a Toyota, you buy the brand and the model, not the option package.
Even the domestics have been moving away from "a la carte" options vs only 2 or 3 packages for each model. They're just easier and more efficient to produce.