Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

xwesx

bwia said:

Off topic but....

• After 107 years General Electric is booted from the Dow Jones Industrial Average effective June 26. It will be replaced by Walgreens. GE has been the Dow's worst performing stock for the last 10 years.
  
  
• Student loan debt has reached $1.5 trillion dollars and climbing.
  
  
• In Boston more Generation Z's are moving back home after college graduation. Not because they cannot find a job (jobs are plentiful in Boston) but because they cannot afford rent, averaging $2,152, while repaying school loans. For many, buying a new car is out of the question.
  
  
• Speaking of cars, Cadillac's new Chief Marketing Officer, who held a similar position at McDonalds and introduced the all-day breakfast there is looking for a such a break-through idea for Cadillac in the form of a niche product like Prius did for Toyota. Good luck with that.
  

The All-Day Cadillac?

dino001

Cadillac's problem was now they wanted a Audi/Jaguar appeal and sales, but they have Buick-sized dealer network. It doesn't work, it can't work. They have to close 2/3 of their dealers before anything else, but how can they do that with those contracts? Bankruptcy was a chance, but they blew it.

dino001

xwesx said:

bwia said:

Off topic but....

• After 107 years General Electric is booted from the Dow Jones Industrial Average effective June 26. It will be replaced by Walgreens. GE has been the Dow's worst performing stock for the last 10 years.
  
  
• Student loan debt has reached $1.5 trillion dollars and climbing.
  
  
• In Boston more Generation Z's are moving back home after college graduation. Not because they cannot find a job (jobs are plentiful in Boston) but because they cannot afford rent, averaging $2,152, while repaying school loans. For many, buying a new car is out of the question.
  
  
• Speaking of cars, Cadillac's new Chief Marketing Officer, who held a similar position at McDonalds and introduced the all-day breakfast there is looking for a such a break-through idea for Cadillac in the form of a niche product like Prius did for Toyota. Good luck with that.
  

The All-Day Cadillac?

1. 1 dollar Cadillac.
2. Kid-size Cadillac
3. Drive-through Cadillac.
4. Big Cadillac.
5. Do you want fries with that?

ab348

The problem is that people are impatient. When I was a kid Cadillac and Lincoln were the ne plus ultra. M-B was making slow sedans like the Ponton and Fintail with the 300SL being an exception. Audi was noneixstent here and BMW was mostly known for the bubble cars until the late '60s. You had sporty foreign makes like Ferarri and Maserati and even Jaguar but saw very few of those on the roads. And of course the Asian makes were nonexistent.

From that point both Cadillac and Lincoln spiraled down slowly until about 10-15 years ago when they began trying to reinvent themselves. Simultaneously all those other brands I mentioned were reaching the peak of their reinvention (or outright invention) that took place in the '70s and '80s. These things take decades to change. I really don't need to see another piece online with some auto journo writing about present-day Cadillac and Lincolns but constantly referencing his cigar-smoking uncle's velour-lined floaty sedan in the '70s. But it seems endemic.

You want to try to sell a soft-riding barge called "Eldorado" next year? Good luck to you.

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's just a different world---the automotive world. American automakers just don't have the reputation to support high end luxury cars. Benz, BMW, Lexus---they never fell into the pits like Cadillac did. Cadillac's glory days are too long ago to draw upon, it seems, or perhaps not glorious enough.

Quite true. And, like with diesel in America, I think they just burned too many bridges to expect people to forgive past transgressions. Perhaps they are stuck with the ill-informed notion that a high price equals more prestige. They need to consider that high value can net them that same prestige, because right now they really need to get their nameplate back out there in the world, and more owners raving about their amazing, and affordable, Cadillacs might just be the ticket. They can tack on halo models after that, and they always have the aspirational Escalade!

My employer seems to think along the same lines as Cadillac. They want to compete with the 'big boys' toe to toe, but they really should be pushing the value proposition.

bwia

dino001 said:

xwesx said:

bwia said:

Off topic but....

• After 107 years General Electric is booted from the Dow Jones Industrial Average effective June 26. It will be replaced by Walgreens. GE has been the Dow's worst performing stock for the last 10 years.
  
  
• Student loan debt has reached $1.5 trillion dollars and climbing.
  
  
• In Boston more Generation Z's are moving back home after college graduation. Not because they cannot find a job (jobs are plentiful in Boston) but because they cannot afford rent, averaging $2,152, while repaying school loans. For many, buying a new car is out of the question.
  
  
• Speaking of cars, Cadillac's new Chief Marketing Officer, who held a similar position at McDonalds and introduced the all-day breakfast there is looking for a such a break-through idea for Cadillac in the form of a niche product like Prius did for Toyota. Good luck with that.
  

The All-Day Cadillac?

1. 1 dollar Cadillac.
2. Kid-size Cadillac
3. Drive-through Cadillac.
4. Big Cadillac.
5. Do you want fries with that?

All kidding aside, Cadillac's new CMO (Deborah Wahl) said promoting a legacy brand is challenging...duh. In that regard, they have developed a new category growth idea -- a subscription car service called “Book by Cadillac.”
For about $1,500 to $1,800 a month, drivers can switch out their vehicles up to 18 times a year. Insurance and maintenance are included. Launched last year, the service is available in New York, Los Angeles and Dallas.

“For those of you who think this summer that you might want to change your cars frequently — a convertible one day, an Escalade another day for your trip to the country … ‘Book’ is a great way” to do it, she said.

Mr_Shiftright

Deborah Wahl needs to stop reading fairy tales and go see how most upper middle class Americans buy their cars, and what they buy. The lifestyle she is describing belongs to multi-millionaires---not exactly Cadillac's demographic.

"Oh, darling, let's take our $1800 a month Cadillac convertible to our country home for the weekend, and when we come back, let's swap it for the Escalade on our way to the polo matches".

The CIA has a term for believing your own propaganda--it's called "drinking your own bathwater".

berri

The Lexus model. Come to market with great product with an aggressive, competitive price. That's how they gained their original success. Lincoln is probably too small to make a big dent, but I think they are still on to something with their "American" luxury approach. The German's seem to have a pretty strong hold on performance luxury product, so I believe Cadillac might have a better shot by focusing on the Lexus and Asian segment. Not everyone wants a German ride. Up the long term quality (not always a strong point of European product), get attractive pricing, and start by targeting Japan products. Also, you don't have to have the biggest volume to be a success, just a nice profit margin long term. Personally, I think something like this has a better chance than just trying to ape the German brands.

nyccarguy

It is really a shame, because Cadillac has made some great cars recently. The ATS. Look at @ab348's car. A strong 3.6L V6 with Magnetic Ride Control. The Twin Turbo 400+ hp CTS V-Sport that @qbrozen had a few years ago. I recently drove a customer's CPO SRX v6 AWD and was very impressed. ANother customer has an SRX V6 and LOVES it.

Shifty - it is funny you mention the multi millionaire thing. I have a friend who is extremely wealthy. Well, his wife's family is anyway. He recently traded in his wife's 2 or 3 year old Escalade for a GMC Yukon XL Denali. He (of all people) didn't see the point of spending an extra $20K - $30K.

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure--a lot of sober people who are into wealth-building aren't paying $1800 a month on car subscriptions. They didn't gain wealth doing things like that all the day long.

stickguy

I still think Caddy is making a mistake dumping all the sedan lines (or are they keeping at least 1 big one?). Can see consolidating 3 sizes into 1 maybe. But just seems short sighted.

dino001

stickguy said:

I still think Caddy is making a mistake dumping all the sedan lines (or are they keeping at least 1 big one?). Can see consolidating 3 sizes into 1 maybe. But just seems short sighted.

Just like Ford. This is fundamental difference between Japanese and domestics: the former say "if we build it, they will come", the latter "if they come, we will build it". On its own it might actually work, if they were nimble enough to start and stop design and production of those marginal models, but they are the worst in that. Union contracts, dealership franchise contracts, general culture, all work to make things slow and unresponsive.

dino001

xwesx said:

They need to consider that high value can net them that same prestige, because right now they really need to get their nameplate back out there in the world, and more owners raving about their amazing, and affordable, Cadillacs might just be the ticket. .

I think it's their cost structure that's killing them - between oversized dealer network and still too inflexible labor, they can't offer same or higher value at similar price point. Something's got to give. They chose post-sale support, cause it doesn't show up on the balance sheet and income statement same way as say actual cost of sale or gross profit. Those problems are for the next executive, meanwhile this one can collect my annual bonus. If they were helped by tariffs, well - that's completely different calculus. However, the question is, would they use the windfall advantage to invest in the brand, or deliver even less value for the same money, pocket bonuses for increased profits and pay shareholders "today" ? Something's telling the choices will be for "I want it now".

oldfarmer50

I'm watching a show on Velocity called Texas car sharks. Reminds me of the show Storage Wars.

Also has anyone seen the latest Tesla inferno?

qbrozen

I have not, but I have to ask why is the fire so far from the car? There is no oil or gas to spread out from under it to do that. So what did? Or is it possible the Tesla did not even start the fire?

yes, it could be plastic or some such thing, but still seems a bit odd to me to spread that far.

stickguy

Car Sharks is so campy silly it is fun to watch. And obviously completely staged. And some of the costs for the fixing up seem hard to believe. Or maybe it's a lot cheaper down there.

I think Martha is a hoot though on a show like this.

imidazol97

First the Sentra. Now Cadillac getting thrashed. LOL

The cost structure including the labor contracts were kept by the administration's choke hold in giving the UAW part ownership in GM.

Ditch even more dealers for Cadillac. Ditch more dealers for Buick. But don't use that as an excuse to raise pricing as do some other foreign brands with rare dealer locations.

Pick the niche places in the market. But a major problem is many people talk how they want Cadillac to change, but when they do then they kvetch about how Cadillac has changed and isn't making precisely what that person (group) thinks they should make. Then there's the constant automotive MSM's negative reporting on anything that's not on their approved list.

As to Volt, the ELR was an "upgrade" on the original Volt. Now Volt is a plug-in hybrid and an upscale BUICK version might sell, in my mind, but not necessarily a Cadillac version.

As to the Cadillac models being a Chevy with premium features added, the XTS is on the same base platform as the LaCrosse and the Impala. The CTS, it's on the GM Alpha platform. The Camaro also is on the Alpha platform.

fintail

To me, it looks like flames are shooting out from under the Tesla. I am sure on the fanboy forums, they have posted pics of burning 1995 BMWs and MBs in a distracting game of whataboutism.

I don't see how these subscriptions will work at $1800/month. That's two of my Bluetec lease + tax + insurance + hundreds left over every month.

Regarding traditional sedans, I don't see MB, BMW, Audi etc dumping theirs.

ab348

stickguy said:

I still think Caddy is making a mistake dumping all the sedan lines (or are they keeping at least 1 big one?). Can see consolidating 3 sizes into 1 maybe. But just seems short sighted.

They are not, not sure where you got that. Over the next year or two they will have 3 sedans on offer: the CT4, CT5, and CT6. The latter already exists and is a lovely vehicle. The other two replace the ATS and CTS. The FWD XTS is going away with no replacement announced.

ab348

imidazol97 said:

The CTS, it's on the GM Alpha platform. The Camaro also is on the Alpha platform.

Waiting for someone to complain the ATS is just a tarted-up Camaro.

nyccarguy

ab348 said:

imidazol97 said:

The CTS, it's on the GM Alpha platform. The Camaro also is on the Alpha platform.

Waiting for someone to complain the ATS is just a tarted-up Camaro.

And there is NOTHING wrong with that. The Camaro is a damn fine automobile (it is just difficult to see out of).

ab348

nyccarguy said:

ab348 said:

imidazol97 said:

The CTS, it's on the GM Alpha platform. The Camaro also is on the Alpha platform.

Waiting for someone to complain the ATS is just a tarted-up Camaro.

And there is NOTHING wrong with that. The Camaro is a damn fine automobile (it is just difficult to see out of).

Thing is, the ATS came out prior to the current-gen Camaro that is on the Alpha platform. The earlier Camaro was on a different one, cannot recall the name.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

< lass="Quote" rel="imidazol97">The CTS, it's on the GM Alpha platform. The Camaro also is on the Alpha platform.

Waiting for someone to complain the ATS is just a tarted-up Camaro.



And there is NOTHING wrong with that. The Camaro is a damn fine automobile (it is just difficult to see out of).
Thing is, the ATS came out prior to the current-gen Camaro that is on the Alpha platform. The earlier Camaro was on a different one, cannot recall the name.

Zeta.

stickguy

Just need a Tau platform next.

abacomike

thebean said:

Looks like Caddy is going the old familiar route. autoweek.com/article/car-news/cadillac-killing-ats-cts-and-xts-sedans-favor-crossovers-come-2019

Bean, I drove the CT6 last year in the fall of 2017 just prior to getting the S450.  The car seemed luxurious both inside and out.

The leather had a very strong aroma which, at first “smelled” luxurious, but then I remembered that my BMW’s and Mercedes vehicles never had that strong of a leather aroma.  The wood looked fake  until I felt it to satisfy my curiosity.  The CT6 was loaded with all the goodies you would expect in a luxury vehicle.  When I was driving, I noticed a significant “growl” from the engine/exhaust system - I was driving the 3.6 liter twin turbo.  It had tremendous torque and it was a fast and powerful vehicle.  It felt a bit heavy on turns and curves.  The quality of the car’s interior was audacious and its styling was quite nice.

The MSRP was just under $90,000 - similar to my then 2017 BMW 740i.  One of the major reasons I did not venture forward with a buy or lease was because of the trade value they placed on my BMW - $49,000.  I am glad it was not the $56,000 I got from Mercedes in Palm Beach or I would be driving a 2018 CT6.

Yes, the car was quite nice IIRC, but I gave a lot of thought to its potential resale value which was an unknown at the time.

I would imagine that Cadillac and Lincoln could gain quite a lot from increased tariffs of the Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Mazzarrati and Audi brands.  Those pesky tariffs could put those brands out of the reach of many buyers of luxury cars.

fintail

Hyundai has an engine family called Tau - I think they have a mixed record.

Another Caddy thing, I think some dealers might need sprucing up to lure in new customers. Lexus really got the kissbutt dealer model going, along with nouveau riche style posh facilities, now everyone does it. Locally however, the Caddy dealer is not as fancy.

abacomike

qbrozen said:

I have not, but I have to ask why is the fire so far from the car? There is no oil or gas to spread out from under it to do that. So what did? Or is it possible the Tesla did not even start the fire?

yes, it could be plastic or some such thing, but still seems a bit odd to me to spread that far.

Definitely gasoline - nothing else would burn like that.

houdini1

A guy I know who was married twice said both marriages were failures and made his life miserable. The first wife left him, and the second wife stayed with him.

roadburner

I could see owning an ATS-V or CTS-V, but there is NOTHING in the Lincoln stable that interests me in the slightest. All of the cars are FWD or FWD biased AWD. Meh to the infinite power.
Lincoln will never do it, but I wish they would spin a luxury performance coupe off the Mustang platform, something like the old Cougar II concept car:

abacomike

roadburner said:

I could see owning an ATS-V or CTS-V, but there is NOTHING in the Lincoln stable that interests me in the slightest. All of the cars are FWD or FWD biased AWD. Meh to the infinite power. Lincoln will never do it, but I wish they would spin a luxury performance coupe off the Mustang platform, something like the old Cougar II concept car:

I agree - Lincoln would be smart to go to a RWD - that’s one of many reasons I would avoid the line.

dino001

abacomike said:

I agree - Lincoln would be smart to go to a RWD - that’s one of many reasons I would avoid the line.

They did once with LS and even though it was reportedly quite a decent platform, it was too expensive for them and it was such an outlier in the lineup, neither customers, nor dealers knew what they had and who was the audience.

Their problem is volumes don't support separate platforms from Ford lineup, but it is a self-fulfilling cycle. Because the differentiation is not too great, people don't consider them interesting or distinctive enough and do not see too much value top pay up for the name plate, which limits the volumes, which limits the R&D funds. Their dealer network is probably too big, as well, just like Cadillac's.

explorerx4

#6. Half vinyl roof with chrome.

driver100

houdini1 said:

A guy I know who was married twice said both marriages were failures and made his life miserable. The first wife left him, and the second wife stayed with him.

Not sure what is worse

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

Deborah Wahl needs to stop reading fairy tales and go see how most upper middle class Americans buy their cars, and what they buy. The lifestyle she is describing belongs to multi-millionaires---not exactly Cadillac's demographic.

"Oh, darling, let's take our $1800 a month Cadillac convertible to our country home for the weekend, and when we come back, let's swap it for the Escalade on our way to the polo matches".

The CIA has a term for believing your own propaganda--it's called "drinking your own bathwater".

lol....that leasing idea seems to be of very limited appeal.
What happened to moving design offices to New York....how did that work out?

berri

I follow the argument about RWD when competing with German luxury products, but FWD (or FWD preference in AWD models) doesn't seem to be impacting some of the Lexus models. This is another reason I kind of think Detroit needs to focus on the Asian side of luxury models instead of Germany. It also plays in the limited money Detroit has for investing in lux models.

abacomike

driver100 said:

A guy I know who was married twice said both marriages were failures and made his life miserable. The first wife left him, and the second wife stayed with him.

Not sure what is worse

Driver, that’s the punchline - both are failures! 

abacomike

berri said:

I follow the argument about RWD when competing with German luxury products, but FWD (or FWD preference in AWD models) doesn't seem to be impacting some of the Lexus models. This is another reason I kind of think Detroit needs to focus on the Asian side of luxury models instead of Germany. It also plays in the limited money Detroit has for investing in lux models.

Lexus manufactures RWD IS, GS, and LS models. The GX and LX models, IIRC, are also RWD/AWD.

driver100

At random comments from this article:

*"De Nysschen is trying to build the brand by establishing a high price and sticking to it come hell or high water, and I think it is working against them," Peterson said. "It is a tough thing to premium price a car when it doesn't deliver on that price."

*Advertisements frequently featured cars driving over cobblestone streets in places like Manhattan's Soho district.
While this may be bringing in new buyers and raising the brand's profile, it doesn't resonate with many of Cadillac's core buyers, who are often wealthy, but oriented toward domestic brands, Lindland said.

*People considering a Cadillac are almost twice as likely to be domestically oriented as the general public, which is to say they want to buy products from American companies.

"I don't think it is about benchmarking the German cars," she said. "What is unique and needs to be celebrated is that the CTS and ATS are luxury American muscle cars."

FULL ARTICLE

abacomike

dino001 said:

I agree - Lincoln would be smart to go to a RWD - that’s one of many reasons I would avoid the line.

They did once with LS and even though it was reportedly quite a decent platform, it was too expensive for them and it was such an outlier in the lineup, neither customers, nor dealers knew what they had and who was the audience. Their problem is volumes don't support separate platforms from Ford lineup, but it is a self-fulfilling cycle. Because the differentiation is not too great, people don't consider them interesting or distinctive enough and do not see too much value top pay up for the name plate, which limits the volumes, which limits the R&D funds. Their dealer network is probably too big, as well, just like Cadillac's.

I owned a 1988 brown metallic TownCar with 1/2 brown vinyl roof.  I had brown cloth interior.  That was RWD and was a smooth, cushy riding car with little worthwhile handling on the highway - but on local streets and avenues it was like driving a yacht on an ocean bouncing through every turn and stop.

It was a preferred limo conversion vehicle over the Cadillac at the time.

abacomike

Just got this photo taken just before graduation.  He is now 6’4” tall and weighs 215.  His name is Dylan - my older grandson - 17 years old.  

henryn

A very fine looking kid there, Mike.

berri

Lexus big seller ES is FWD. I'm not sure, but think another big seller RX crossover is FWD/AWD.

stickguy

the RX is based on the EX, so FWD. and those are Lexus' volume sellers.

abacomike

henryn said:

A very fine looking kid there, Mike.

Yes he is - blond hair, blue eyes, tall - must be tough to be that good looking and 17 years old - going to college on a scholarship.  Now if he can just concentrate on studying and his baseball.

abacomike

stickguy said:

the RX is based on the EX, so FWD. and those are Lexus' volume sellers.

Yes, RX350 and ES350 are FWD.

driver100

abacomike said:

driver100 said:

houdini1 said:

A guy I know who was married twice said both marriages were failures and made his life miserable. The first wife left him, and the second wife stayed with him.

Not sure what is worse

Driver, that’s the punchline - both are failures! 

Exactly Mike....I am just wondering which one would be worse. From my experience I think staying around would be worse. Better to be alone than with someone you aren't getting along with. That statement is not a reflection on my life at this time, I am 100% satisfied.

ab348

Tarted up Camrys and Highlanders!

driver100

abacomike said:

henryn said:

A very fine looking kid there, Mike.

Yes he is - blond hair, blue eyes, tall - must be tough to be that good looking and 17 years old - going to college on a scholarship.  Now if he can just concentrate on studying and his baseball.

Good looking kid Mike.....good thing I wasn't 6'4" and look like that, I would have been a beach bum and got nowhere in life.

tjc78

roadburner said:

I could see owning an ATS-V or CTS-V, but there is NOTHING in the Lincoln stable that interests me in the slightest. All of the cars are FWD or FWD biased AWD. Meh to the infinite power. Lincoln will never do it, but I wish they would spin a luxury performance coupe off the Mustang platform, something like the old Cougar II concept car:

A modern version of the 84-92 Mark VII would be awesome.  

tbirdmarco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CdgBm_gNphs