I'll completely disagree with your recommendations for maintenance. 150k on differential oil?? That's insane - why would you save $15 worth of gear oil to do that?. Personally, I think every 30k is fine but check the owner's manual. You're not going to destroy the diff if you leave it to 50k, but there are degrees of damage many (like myself) would not tolerate. For instance, I have 3 differentials on my LC and they've been religiously maintained with synthetic gearlube since new. After 120,000 miles my diffs are still completely silent despite 10 years of heavy use. Others I've ridden in (I'm in a LC club) have varying degrees of quiet whines and whirrs that could have been avoided - you choose your level of comfort.
As for the other fluids - again this is simply bad advice, wwest. Especially bothersome is the notion that brake fluid is fine unless opened. Brake fluid absorbs water and this happens over time no matter what you do. Also, the brake fluid at the calipers gets constantly cycled hot/cold and gets fatigued. Anyone who's ever bled brakes knows what it's like to see that first bit come out dark and discolored, then the brown of fluid farther from the brakes, followed by nice clear fresh brake fluid.
I'm less inclined to change the power steering fluid. But the smell test on tranny fluid? Like any fluid in your car, transmission fluid has a life. Over time and normal use (without overheating) transmission fluid breaks down and becomes less effective. The additive package literally wears out. We're talking about perhaps $15 worth of tranny fluid here.
Testing radiator antifreeze to decide if it should be changed? That means sending it to a lab to avoid spending $20 on anti freeze. Does this make sense? Not to mention all the other benefits of a cooling system flush (carries out sediments, etc).
In my opinion, regularly changing out the oils and fluids in your car is the cheapest and best maintenance you can possibly do for it. I'd venture to say that if this was done on every car, the amount of automotive repair in the world would drop by 70%. The very best advice I or anyone could possibly give you would be to change fluids when the schedule in your owner's manual says to.
You change the oil in your engine only becuase it becomes contaminated with byproducts of combustion. Almost everybody knows that you can reuse that very same engine oil simply by re-refining, a process by which those contaminats are removed.
PLease remember that oil, in its natural form, has been around now for something on the order of billions of years and apparently has yet to "wear" out.
Now, tell me why the oils in my tranny, power steering, or diff'l should be changed out, EVER!
I am willing to wager you good money that if you were to have that oil you take out of your tranny, power steering, or diff'l analyzed you would find that it is still perfectly serviceable. The only exception you might find is metallic particles in suspension in which case putting new oil in will not delay the failure already in process.
Any local parts store can sell you a tester which you can use to test your anti-freeze very easily. Some of us have only been doing that for going on 50 years or so.
And for me, it isn't the cost of materials at all, it's primarily the cost of labor and the elimination of the potential of having some "gofer" (you know, the teenagers you dealers use to perform routine maintenance functions on the cheap and then charge us customers at skilled technican rates) screw up my car so that the dealer can then gouge me even more for the ensuing repairs.
My 92 LS400 at 85k still has the factory anti-freeze, power steering fluid, automatic transmission fluid and diff'l lubricant. I fully expect that it will still be that way until at least 150k if not more, maybe even 200k.
Last week I had a bus pull out in front of me unexpectedly at an intersection. I was able to stop in time just barely and to do so I had both feet on the brake pedal with absolute full pressure. I would not have been at all surprised had the pedal itself sheared off or blown a seal in the system.
If a brake system can sustain those types of extreme pressures would you please be so kind as to inform us as to how any water vapor could enter the system. And yes, some brake fluids will turn light brown with prolonged use, but have you ever seen documented evidence indicating that the fact that it is slightly brown is in any way detrimental to its functionality?
Again, may I ever so politely request that the next time you drain your brake fluid you take a sample to a lab, being sure of course that you do not inadvertantly contaminate the "evidence". Remember that brake fluid, if exposed to the open air, will accumulate water vapor over a period of time.
Just follow the freaking owner's manual! I don't care if oil can last from the big bang till the end of time. Bottom line, and for warranty repairs, you should do what the manual recommends. After warranty period, do whatever you think is right. Yes, there can be "human error" from highschool punks at your local Toyota dealer. But, you can also do many of these things by yourself (if so inclined).
The people who design my 4runner knows A LOT more about the 4runner than anyone on the internet. Period. Those engineers who has designed such a brillant SUV know what they are talking about. They have spent years in developing the 4Runner...i am sure they have thought about such mundane things as oil changes.
That's not entirely true. Chemical changes can and do take place particularly at higher temperatures.
PLease remember that oil, in its natural form, has been around now for something on the order of billions of years and apparently has yet to "wear" out.
Some of the oil hasn't "worn out." Biodegradation can and has occurred. (see Biodegradation of Oil, e.g.) Fortunately, some of those effects can be compensated for in refining.
Totally agree with your statement ,I remember my dad telling me to always replace the oil and filter within 3000 to 4000 miles and to follow the owners manual to the letter . The AAMCO commercial " you can pay now or ....... " There is a few of you guys who are very knowledgeable in LC and LX and other vehicles . I enjoy reading many of your posts and have learned alot . Thank you.
intmed99 is perfectly correct, those designers know what they are doing. Unless your vehicle is doing some sort of HEAVY duty work, the oil in your tranny, steering, and diff'l will not overheat and breakdown, BY DESIGN.
Now, take a look at what your dealer recommends for scheduled maintenance vs what is actually recommended by the manufacturer. NOW do you think maybe there might be just a litle bit of pressure from the dealers to force the factory to use their more wastefull maintenance guidlines?
You make me laugh. I'm not even sure I want to get into this because it appears you want to be right more than I do. But I'm hanging out on the wireless link propped up on the couch this evening and will address your issues.
First, I'd be willing to bet the "test" you've been doing on radiator fluid for 50 years involves the little bulb squeeze thing with the clear tube and colored balls, right? So basically you're testing the specific gravity as a proxy for its glycol concentration. Since your LS has an aluminum block, you'd better be VERY concerned about the PH levels of old fluid (will erode aluminum). And the amount of suspended metals worn off the various engine parts. And the amount of sludge in your radiator and heater core that have accumulated. Fine, keep it in there forever - those little colored balls will tell you all you need to know, I guess.
As to oil not breaking down. Last I checked, oil in the natural environment (underground) was not subjected to the heat of an internal combustion engine, thousands of psi of bearing pressure, filled with acids and other components of combustion blowby, contaminated with metal particles from wear, and churned by a 3000 rpm engine. No wonder the earth's oil hasn't worn out yet. And it's a good thing too because if terra firma ever seizes up on us we'll go from about 1000 mph to zero fast enough to spill wwest's mai tai on his silk smoking jacket.
A couple little gems about oil I've learned along the way. All motor oil has significant amounts of additives in it to make it act the way the engineers need it to act in the harsh environment of an engine. Ma Nature didn't do us the favor of creating a product we can just dump in the engine - the additives make it suitable for an engine, a power steering pump, or a transmission. Things like temperature resistance, detergents to prevent sludging, anti-foaming agents to prevent aeration, friction modifiers, etc are all created by the additive package. These additives wear out and the oil must be replaced to restore its effectiveness, whether it's engine, tranny, diff or power steering oil. So yes, the oil wears out in my world - it does not merely become laden with "stuff" like in your world.
Now the brakes. Ah, the brakes. So you're looking for documentation that brown coloration means the brake fluid is unsuitable. Hmmmm. I don't have any. In my world it is common knowledge that discolored brake fluid is unsuitable for use. In my world, a cracked windshield is unsuitable for use without a certificate to inform me. Why, in my world, a dull knife is even unsuitable for use. But frankly the knife did not come with an owner's manual to tell me that it's unsuitable for use and must be sharpened. Pity that.
Seriously. When brake fluid absorbs water (which it does from the day it is put in service) it turns brown. When engine oil gets water in it, it turns milky and cloudy. When tranny fluid is old it goes from a nice red to a brown. All signs replacement is needed.
You want documentation on all this? Relive your life as an automotive enthusiast. Or, go take an automotive maintenance course at your local Junior College or Vocational School. If you don't know this stuff then don't pick a fight over it. Really, wwest - this is pretty basic car stuff.
As for your braking scenario, perhaps you wouldn't have needed both feet to stop that day if the brake fluid were up to snuff. I find it noteworthy that my well maintained brakes will lock up the tires on dry pavement with one foot, but yours require both feet for panic stops. Hmmm. Come to think of it, moisture in the caliper brake lines causes the fluid to boil when the brakes are used hard, which reduces braking effectiveness - requiring much higher pedal pressure to stop. Given enough time and neglect, brake calipers get sticky and eventually one or two could be rusted in place. This process takes place much faster in moist climates. Like say, Seattle.. Hmmmmmmm....where did you say you live?.....How much more of this do you want to hear??
Well, I bought my first car in 1961 and until about 1995 I had NEVER heard of anyone saying there was a need to change out these fluids (other than engine oil) in any sort of scheduled basis.
And as validation I drove two Ford Country Squire station wagons for over 250k miles, a 68 and then a 75. I don't remember having any problems with either diff'l or PS, but I will say that both engines were over-hauled during that lifetime, and at least one of the automatics (if not both), these are Fords we're talking about here.
Other than scheduled maintenance items and wearout items (points, plugs, brakes, tranx clutch/bands, etc.), the "standard" problems, fuel pump, water pump, were about all I ever had to pay any real attention to.
Oh, two foot braking was my human panic reaction and even at that the ABS cycled a few times even thought (because?) traction was quite good on the paved roadbed. I have litle doubt that just firm pressure on my power brakes would have stopped me just as quickly but in this type of situation I am not one of those folks for which BA was implemented.
Oh, and I have a hot tub so I always have a stock of Ph strips handy. Funny, I don't know if it's due to the ALL aluminum engines/components or what, but the Ph has never wondered very far from neutral.
You don't suppose the brown color of the brake fluid after many miles could be from metalic wear particles from the brake pistons do you? Or maybe a bit of rusted metal particles from iron brake calipers/pistons?
You know, you have been wrong before, and you'll be wrong again, but I have never seen you this wrong! Oil is a byproduct of decomposition of organics and it was formed over millions of years under constant pressures and temperatures. Once formed, it pools in layers where the right type of surrounding earth (sandstone or compact sand) can hold it in place, where it would remain forever if not for plate tectonics, earthquakes and oil drilling rigs. In stasis, it does not undergo anything like the extremes in temprature, pressure, shearing and blow-by contamination that Idaho mentioned.
You are also wrong about oil not wearing out. The fact is, you cannot purchase pure refined dino oil for your car and when we talk about oil as it relates to cars, we are talking about the products that go into our crankcase, our diffs, and the like. ALL these have various amounts of additives and all these additives will break-down and, if left too long, actually accelerate the loss of lubricative properties in the oil base. This is to say nothing about the proliferation of synthetic oil and lubricants all of which have their own use life. How anyone can recommend leaving these fluids in for the life of the car is beyond me and flies in the face of everything REAL engineers with REAL knowledge of lubrication have learned and developed over the last century.
Leaving tranny, diff and break fluid in for years and years and over 100,000+ miles is simply irresponsible. You are reducing the useful life of those components and will eventually pay for the lesson in hubris. That is, unless you sell the car to some unsuspecting chap who has to pay for your neglect.
BTW: many manufacturers require brake fluid changes as part of routine maintenence; BMW says every two years, or about twice the typical life of their synthetic engine oil.
The most rational and defendable recommendation anyone can make as it pertains to fluid maintenence is "read and follow the owner's manual". Also, if you are buying used cars, make sure you see a complete service history of proper maintenence. You do NOT want to get one of wwest's cast-offs.
Both of the Fords I mentioned went directly to the wrecking yard becuase there was no market in those times for a vehicle with 250k. Sad.
AND. My "cast offs" either go to relatives and company employees, that's how I know that these accelerated maintenance schedules consist mostly of a bunch of malarkey, I can keep relatively close watch as theh mileage grows and grows.
AND. At what level down into the earth do you think much of our oil comes from that does not have temperatures and pressures greatly exceeding those of automotive engine operation?
Blow-by: I have NEVER contented that engine lubricating oil shouldn't be changed out on the factory recommended scheduled basis.
Sorry , I know this is the wrong post , but I got to say something about the 1968 FCS SW ,I bought a brand new one , let me tell you , Is the biggest piece junk .......... with the worst carburetor replaced 3 times in 22 months. My blood boils each time I think about it . You guys may continue your debate about fluids . I will read and keep quite . Thank you .
All my good experiences are due to lucky luck riding around on my shoulder for the past 50(?) years??
Just what I, and others of my aquaintence, have always suspected.
Back "when", oil was distributed in glass (fruit?) jars and undoubtedly was the pure stuff. There was no scheduled maintenance because the engines burned and leaked it so fast it was "replaced" before the need arose.
Meant no disrespect to my elders . What makes this country great is that all of us can be opinionated and enjoy each others comments whether they make sense or not . I am heading toward the refrigerator for a cool one or two it goes great with pizza . Don't know about the diff fluid but the tranny has a light creamy color it could be recycle with coffee and donuts . A little sarcasm and tabasco sauce . I am keeping quite now right now . Thank you .
Are you kidding? I've tested our transporter and found that it only transports 10% of your back end, recirculates your teeth and changes all the fluid in your body! The service manual claims it doesn't do any of this but my scientific tests prove otherwise. You must be nuts! :-D
Thank you for your kind words ,10% of my butt is JLO 50 % I would like all the fluids poured into a shiny glass jar . The teeth are not mine belongs to the dentist
Speaking of 2X4 err. four x four .. vodgut has a good idea a 4X468FCSSW he definitely could use more smokes.....
Full time all wheel drive is a system wherein the front and center diff'ls are of the open type and the rear may be open or LSD. Most full-time 4WD systems can be quickly converted to part-time by simply locking the center diff'l.
AWD is different in that it always has a way to automatically redistribute torque on as required basis. Basically the AWD system is intended to overcome the shortcomings of the full-time 4WD described above.
Some AWD systems currently on the market, such as the RX300, only pretend to have AWD. Others, like the ML320 and the X5 truly are AWD vehicles, both in high and low traction conditions. The Chrysler AWD minivan series, as an exception, is primarily FWD and only becomes truly AWD in adverse roadbed conditions.
Up until now the Ford Aerostar likely represented the best overall compromise for an AWD vehicle. Normally 30/70 torque distribution front to rear, and automatically 50/50 if disparate driveline rotational rates developed across the center diff'l.
Full-time 4WD as described above will distribute torque equally to all four wheels as long as all four wheels have roughly equal roadbed traction. The problem becomes that should any wheel lose traction then you suddenly have a one wheel drive, the one with no traction, of course.
Adding in a rear LSD overcomes this problem partially in that it operates to deliver some "limited" level of torque to the wheel opposite of the one with no, or little traction.
Most likely time will indicate that the only really viable AWD will be the electronic one first introduced in an SUV by MB's ML series. The Toyota Sequoia now uses that same system as will the upcoming RX330.
Unless I've forgotten how to read entirely, or maybe how to comprehend what I read, Cliffy has no explanation of full-time 4WD anywhere in the series of dessertations in this thread. At least not anywhere near the beginning.
Lumps AWD, A-trac, and full-time 4WD together in one "pod". I think even cliffy would agree that there are enough differences between AWD, A-Trac, and full-time 4WD to warrant a separate description.
There are, after all, quite significant differences between a full-time 4WD system and any AWD system. Also, does anyone know of any full-time 4WD system that is not simply a "sub-mode" of a part-time 4WD system?
That's the difference. Wwest is not far from what I would consider the correct answer to the AWD/4WD question but it really comes down to each meaning whatever you are comfortable with them meaning. There are different methods of achieving AWD and full time 4WD so you can't even say that AWD means "X". It may mean one thing on a Highlander and another on an Audi. If you are questioning a dealer who tells you the car in question has AWD, just ask him how it does that. If he can't answer, find somebody who can. If you are satisfied that the method of engagement meets your needs, buy it.
Which is better AWD or Full time 4wd? I am planning on getting a LC which has full time 4wd. I do alot of outdoor activites, in the winter I usually stay up in the mountains where it snows alot, and plan to do some off-roading (not extreme). So, which on best suits my needs?
For real snow and off road conditions, the Land Cruiser or Sequoia systems would be great. Both have the Active-Track system that you can read all about in the first few posts on this topic.
Full-time 4WD (AWD not inclusive) is virtually useless in adverse weather, wintertime roadbed conditions. The only venue that I can think where it might be worth its "salt" is in auto-racing.
Which leaves us with AWD or part-time 4WD. No need to discuss part-time 4WD, it is what it is. Some action is required of the operator to switch from mode to the other. REQUIRED is the operative word here. Serious damage can be done to the drivetrain if the operator is not knowledgeable or is for some reason unwitting (like Bush) of this requirement.
The problem that immediately arises with AWD is the myriad of versions out there in the current market and just how one choses the right one for each individual's overall needs, requirements, and "image" requirements.
For myself, for instance, I have very little doubt that the BMW X5, at least at the current time, offers the best of the best for AWD. Then why do I currenty own my second RX300?
1. Don't care for the BMW name, just simply can't explain, something "build-in" I guess due to life's experiences.
2. Price, more appointments in the RX for less money. 3. Lexus (underdog?) fan. 4. front dash and steering wheel not color matched.
Hoping the RX330 will level the playing field.
Oh, the old Ford Aerostar, IMMHO, offered the absolute best AWD for its time, 70/30 F/R torque distribution that switched to 50/50 on low traction surfaces.
My personal opinion is that AWD torque should be biased primarily to the rear allowing whatever roadbed traction exists at the front to be allocated to directional control.
Future VSC designs will likely apportion torque to the rear automatically if VSC sensors indicate understeering.
There is a ton of great info - and I apologize if we've hit on this and I missed it, but looking for some help/clarification on the 03 4Runner 4WD system.
We're down to deciding between the 03 Highlander (AWD) and the 03 4Runner (4WD). This will be my first SUV, and I've no exposure to 4WD systems. If I were to go with the 4Runner V6, how intuitive is it to change between the 3 setting (2WD, 4L, and 4H)? What road conditions would require which setting? My fear is I get a manual 4WD system, and have no idea when to use it (or worse, use the wrong setting to at the wrong time!). I live in MA (this winter was horrible for snow!), and do not plan on doing a ton of off roading.
I know that the 4Runner V8 has a full time 4WD system, but I'm not sure that is of benefit to me (not to mention the loss of gas mileage going to the V8).
Although I have a V8 4Runner, the V6 has a similar control. It's just a dial on the dash to the lower right of the steering wheel, with 3 settings on the V6 (2 on the V8), you turn the dial to go from 2H to 4H.
You probably won't need 4L unless you go offroad. From what I understand, you can leave it in 4H as much as you want if road conditions look at all like they're going to be adverse. 2H is for dry roads, probably when you're not expecting any adverse travel conditions.
I'm not positive, but I believe changing between 2H and 4H on the V6 is as simple as turning the dial. To go to 4L I think you have to be stopped and in neutral or something.
I don't think the V8 gas mileage is much worse than the V6 - 1 or 2 mpg. I like having the full-time system, the 5 speed transmission, and the sound of that V8 burble.
Just got to drive mine this morning in some real snow, it handled wonderfully.
Has an electronic (automatic) AWD system. "Base" system is full-time 4WD with the ability to instantly and automatically reapportion torque if adverse conditions are encountered.
Therefore technically an AWD system.
mabucfan:
Neither the HL nor the current RX have a reasonable level of AWD capability, both are primarily FWD, with some minor ability to deliver engine torque to the rear. 90/10 F/R torque split the "instant" a front wheel slips, as much as 75/25 with continous (tens of seconds) front wheel slippage.
If you can accept the extra bulk and weight of the 03 4runner and still seat only 5, go for it. The 03 4runner does have one of the best driveline systems out there.
For the technically inept then - the Highlander is not a true AWD system? If one of my concerns is reliability in inclement weather (after this past winter!) - that sounds to me like a slam-dunk for the 4Runner (?).
vodgut - can you clarify the V8 system: your options are 2WD and 4WD only? Do you find that is all you need?
And I guess my last question - 2WD for most weather, 4WD H for inclement weather (rain or snow)?
Thanks again, this info is a huge help in my decision making!
In the V8, the only options are 4WD Hi and 4WD Lo. There is no 2WD with the V8, you're always in 4WD. I like it that way as then I don't have to decide when I'm gonna need it - it's always there. I believe it's pretty much the same system in the V6 - there's no problem leaving it in 4Hi most of the time, but your mileage will suffer slightly.
The only advantage to having it be able to go into 2WD like it does on the V6 is slightly better gas mileage and maybe a little bit of savings in wear and tear on the driveline. But it's not much different - the EPA figures are only 1 to 2 MPG better for the V6 than the V8. I find I'm getting 17 or so MPG with the V8 in mixed driving.
On the V6 model, yeah, 2WD for most pleasant weather, 4WD Hi for inclement weather on the road, and 4WD Lo for some off-road applications (rock crawling) and anywhere you need a lot of power/pulling but don't want to move very fast doing it.
I imagine the HL will handle most bad weather very well, but the 4Runner is going to handle it better. It's a more substantial vehicle with better ground clearance. The VSC is also helpful, I don't know if the HL has this. The advantages to the HL are better mileage, it's a bit smaller and car-like, and it's cheaper. My step-aunt has a HL and she loves it. Drives it between Colorado and Montana all the time. I'll be taking my 4Runner up to Montana around Memorial Day....
on the V6 4Runner, you will use 2WD on dry roads. Only use the 4WD system on slippery roads or off-road. The only time I use 4WD Lo is off-road (and a day like today when we are getting snow in Colorado that is being measured in feet, not inches).
The info you guys are giving me is awesome, thanks! You can do all the research you want on the web - but nothing beats testimonial from actual users!
My last question (for now anyway) - do you really have to use Premium for the 4Runner? I am trying to justify the markup from the Highlander – and this is the last hurdle. I’m assuming it wouldn’t be listed if it weren’t recommended, I’m just not sure why it would be necessary.
Go look at the 'Toyota 4Runner' thread. We've talked about gas grades in there. It might vary by engine, but after hearing other users successfully using regular grade (only 85 Octane here in CO) in their V8 'Runners, I don't think premium is strictly necessary. Not sure about the V6 if you're looking at that. I'd guess regular or mid-grade would be OK, though, there might be mention of it in the 4Runner thread, I'd check there.
I myself have used both regular and mid-grade, no ill effects so far, but I only have 600 miles on the vehicle. I personally wouldn't spend any more for premium over mid-grade, and if regular works OK, then use that most of the time.
I still don't understand why you say the Sequoia has AWD. I've never heard of an AWD vehicle with low range gearing. Also, front to back torque split is accomplished with gearing on the Sequoia.
I've reposted this before and thank Drew again for his original post.
#2 of 771 Actually... by drew_ Feb 05, 2001 (8:24 pm)
it's a lot more complicated than that. I blame it on the manufacturers and magazines who use the terms interchangably. There are variations on a theme, of course, but this is basically what it boils down to:
4WD = Low range and High Range gearing AWD = Only high range gearing
Part-time 4WD: No centre differential. Cannot be used on dry/wet, semi-slippery roads due to the lack of the centre differential. When activated, both front and rear axles are physically locked to each other and have to spin at the same rate. This becomes a problem when turning on sufficiently high friction surfaces. Examples: Suzuki SUVs, most 4WD pickup trucks, cheaper SUVs.
Permanent 4WD:. No two wheel drive mode. System is equipped with a centre differential, and hence is safe to use on all surfaces. All four wheels are powered all of the time (usually 50/50 front and rear axles). This is arguably the best system since the torque split ratio does not change and is the most predictable. All wheels "help out" all of the time and this stabilises the vehicle + improves handling. With the extra two drive wheels, the vehicle has twice the amount of traction all of the time (even in no-slip conditions) vs. a 2WD vehicle. Examples: MB M-class SUV, the Range/Land Rovers.
Full-time 4WD: Basically permanent 4WD but with a 2WD mode. This was born out of customer demand (for a 2WD mode). Examples: Toyota Sequoia, Mitsubishi Montero.
Permanent AWD: Basically permanent 4WD but without low range gearing. Examples include the Audi Quattro AWD system, the MB's 4-matic AWD system, Subaru's manual transmission AWD system.
Full-time AWD: System is active at all times, however in most cases, the one set of wheels (usually the rears) only receive 5-10% of the engine's power unless slippage occurs. At that point, power is progressively transfered to the opposite axle to help out. Some systems can transfer power to the rear upon acceleration to improve traction. However, they revert to 2WD mode when coasting.
Hope this clarifies things for everyone!
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Comments
I'll completely disagree with your recommendations for maintenance. 150k on differential oil?? That's insane - why would you save $15 worth of gear oil to do that?. Personally, I think every 30k is fine but check the owner's manual. You're not going to destroy the diff if you leave it to 50k, but there are degrees of damage many (like myself) would not tolerate. For instance, I have 3 differentials on my LC and they've been religiously maintained with synthetic gearlube since new. After 120,000 miles my diffs are still completely silent despite 10 years of heavy use. Others I've ridden in (I'm in a LC club) have varying degrees of quiet whines and whirrs that could have been avoided - you choose your level of comfort.
As for the other fluids - again this is simply bad advice, wwest. Especially bothersome is the notion that brake fluid is fine unless opened. Brake fluid absorbs water and this happens over time no matter what you do. Also, the brake fluid at the calipers gets constantly cycled hot/cold and gets fatigued. Anyone who's ever bled brakes knows what it's like to see that first bit come out dark and discolored, then the brown of fluid farther from the brakes, followed by nice clear fresh brake fluid.
I'm less inclined to change the power steering fluid. But the smell test on tranny fluid? Like any fluid in your car, transmission fluid has a life. Over time and normal use (without overheating) transmission fluid breaks down and becomes less effective. The additive package literally wears out. We're talking about perhaps $15 worth of tranny fluid here.
Testing radiator antifreeze to decide if it should be changed? That means sending it to a lab to avoid spending $20 on anti freeze. Does this make sense? Not to mention all the other benefits of a cooling system flush (carries out sediments, etc).
In my opinion, regularly changing out the oils and fluids in your car is the cheapest and best maintenance you can possibly do for it. I'd venture to say that if this was done on every car, the amount of automotive repair in the world would drop by 70%. The very best advice I or anyone could possibly give you would be to change fluids when the schedule in your owner's manual says to.
IdahoDoug
You change the oil in your engine only becuase it becomes contaminated with byproducts of combustion. Almost everybody knows that you can reuse that very same engine oil simply by re-refining, a process by which those contaminats are removed.
PLease remember that oil, in its natural form, has been around now for something on the order of billions of years and apparently has yet to "wear" out.
Now, tell me why the oils in my tranny, power steering, or diff'l should be changed out, EVER!
I am willing to wager you good money that if you were to have that oil you take out of your tranny, power steering, or diff'l analyzed you would find that it is still perfectly serviceable. The only exception you might find is metallic particles in suspension in which case putting new oil in will not delay the failure already in process.
Any local parts store can sell you a tester which you can use to test your anti-freeze very easily. Some of us have only been doing that for going on 50 years or so.
And for me, it isn't the cost of materials at all, it's primarily the cost of labor and the elimination of the potential of having some "gofer" (you know, the teenagers you dealers use to perform routine maintenance functions on the cheap and then charge us customers at skilled technican rates) screw up my car so that the dealer can then gouge me even more for the ensuing repairs.
My 92 LS400 at 85k still has the factory anti-freeze, power steering fluid, automatic transmission fluid and diff'l lubricant. I fully expect that it will still be that way until at least 150k if not more, maybe even 200k.
Last week I had a bus pull out in front of me unexpectedly at an intersection. I was able to stop in time just barely and to do so I had both feet on the brake pedal with absolute full pressure. I would not have been at all surprised had the pedal itself sheared off or blown a seal in the system.
If a brake system can sustain those types of extreme pressures would you please be so kind as to inform us as to how any water vapor could enter the system. And yes, some brake fluids will turn light brown with prolonged use, but have you ever seen documented evidence indicating that the fact that it is slightly brown is in any way detrimental to its functionality?
Again, may I ever so politely request that the next time you drain your brake fluid you take a sample to a lab, being sure of course that you do not inadvertantly contaminate the "evidence". Remember that brake fluid, if exposed to the open air, will accumulate water vapor over a period of time.
The people who design my 4runner knows A LOT more about the 4runner than anyone on the internet. Period. Those engineers who has designed such a brillant SUV know what they are talking about. They have spent years in developing the 4Runner...i am sure they have thought about such mundane things as oil changes.
Read the owner's manual.
That's not entirely true. Chemical changes can and do take place particularly at higher temperatures.
PLease remember that oil, in its natural form, has been around now for something on the order of billions of years and apparently has yet to "wear" out.
Some of the oil hasn't "worn out." Biodegradation can and has occurred. (see Biodegradation of Oil, e.g.) Fortunately, some of those effects can be compensated for in refining.
tidester, host
intmed99 is perfectly correct, those designers know what they are doing. Unless your vehicle is doing some sort of HEAVY duty work, the oil in your tranny, steering, and diff'l will not overheat and breakdown, BY DESIGN.
Now, take a look at what your dealer recommends for scheduled maintenance vs what is actually recommended by the manufacturer. NOW do you think maybe there might be just a litle bit of pressure from the dealers to force the factory to use their more wastefull maintenance guidlines?
You make me laugh. I'm not even sure I want to get into this because it appears you want to be right more than I do. But I'm hanging out on the wireless link propped up on the couch this evening and will address your issues.
First, I'd be willing to bet the "test" you've been doing on radiator fluid for 50 years involves the little bulb squeeze thing with the clear tube and colored balls, right? So basically you're testing the specific gravity as a proxy for its glycol concentration. Since your LS has an aluminum block, you'd better be VERY concerned about the PH levels of old fluid (will erode aluminum). And the amount of suspended metals worn off the various engine parts. And the amount of sludge in your radiator and heater core that have accumulated. Fine, keep it in there forever - those little colored balls will tell you all you need to know, I guess.
As to oil not breaking down. Last I checked, oil in the natural environment (underground) was not subjected to the heat of an internal combustion engine, thousands of psi of bearing pressure, filled with acids and other components of combustion blowby, contaminated with metal particles from wear, and churned by a 3000 rpm engine. No wonder the earth's oil hasn't worn out yet. And it's a good thing too because if terra firma ever seizes up on us we'll go from about 1000 mph to zero fast enough to spill wwest's mai tai on his silk smoking jacket.
A couple little gems about oil I've learned along the way. All motor oil has significant amounts of additives in it to make it act the way the engineers need it to act in the harsh environment of an engine. Ma Nature didn't do us the favor of creating a product we can just dump in the engine - the additives make it suitable for an engine, a power steering pump, or a transmission. Things like temperature resistance, detergents to prevent sludging, anti-foaming agents to prevent aeration, friction modifiers, etc are all created by the additive package. These additives wear out and the oil must be replaced to restore its effectiveness, whether it's engine, tranny, diff or power steering oil. So yes, the oil wears out in my world - it does not merely become laden with "stuff" like in your world.
Now the brakes. Ah, the brakes. So you're looking for documentation that brown coloration means the brake fluid is unsuitable. Hmmmm. I don't have any. In my world it is common knowledge that discolored brake fluid is unsuitable for use. In my world, a cracked windshield is unsuitable for use without a certificate to inform me. Why, in my world, a dull knife is even unsuitable for use. But frankly the knife did not come with an owner's manual to tell me that it's unsuitable for use and must be sharpened. Pity that.
Seriously. When brake fluid absorbs water (which it does from the day it is put in service) it turns brown. When engine oil gets water in it, it turns milky and cloudy. When tranny fluid is old it goes from a nice red to a brown. All signs replacement is needed.
You want documentation on all this? Relive your life as an automotive enthusiast. Or, go take an automotive maintenance course at your local Junior College or Vocational School. If you don't know this stuff then don't pick a fight over it. Really, wwest - this is pretty basic car stuff.
As for your braking scenario, perhaps you wouldn't have needed both feet to stop that day if the brake fluid were up to snuff. I find it noteworthy that my well maintained brakes will lock up the tires on dry pavement with one foot, but yours require both feet for panic stops. Hmmm. Come to think of it, moisture in the caliper brake lines causes the fluid to boil when the brakes are used hard, which reduces braking effectiveness - requiring much higher pedal pressure to stop. Given enough time and neglect, brake calipers get sticky and eventually one or two could be rusted in place. This process takes place much faster in moist climates. Like say, Seattle.. Hmmmmmmm....where did you say you live?.....How much more of this do you want to hear??
IdahoDoug
And as validation I drove two Ford Country Squire station wagons for over 250k miles, a 68 and then a 75. I don't remember having any problems with either diff'l or PS, but I will say that both engines were over-hauled during that lifetime, and at least one of the automatics (if not both), these are Fords we're talking about here.
Other than scheduled maintenance items and wearout items (points, plugs, brakes, tranx clutch/bands, etc.), the "standard" problems, fuel pump, water pump, were about all I ever had to pay any real attention to.
Oh, two foot braking was my human panic reaction and even at that the ABS cycled a few times even thought (because?) traction was quite good on the paved roadbed. I have litle doubt that just firm pressure on my power brakes would have stopped me just as quickly but in this type of situation I am not one of those folks for which BA was implemented.
Oh, and I have a hot tub so I always have a stock of Ph strips handy. Funny, I don't know if it's due to the ALL aluminum engines/components or what, but the Ph has never wondered very far from neutral.
You don't suppose the brown color of the brake fluid after many miles could be from metalic wear particles from the brake pistons do you? Or maybe a bit of rusted metal particles from iron brake calipers/pistons?
Do you not know the temperature, pressure, and "contamination" of the "oil" as it exists down "there" from where we pump it?
You know, you have been wrong before, and you'll be wrong again, but I have never seen you this wrong! Oil is a byproduct of decomposition of organics and it was formed over millions of years under constant pressures and temperatures. Once formed, it pools in layers where the right type of surrounding earth (sandstone or compact sand) can hold it in place, where it would remain forever if not for plate tectonics, earthquakes and oil drilling rigs. In stasis, it does not undergo anything like the extremes in temprature, pressure, shearing and blow-by contamination that Idaho mentioned.
You are also wrong about oil not wearing out. The fact is, you cannot purchase pure refined dino oil for your car and when we talk about oil as it relates to cars, we are talking about the products that go into our crankcase, our diffs, and the like. ALL these have various amounts of additives and all these additives will break-down and, if left too long, actually accelerate the loss of lubricative properties in the oil base. This is to say nothing about the proliferation of synthetic oil and lubricants all of which have their own use life. How anyone can recommend leaving these fluids in for the life of the car is beyond me and flies in the face of everything REAL engineers with REAL knowledge of lubrication have learned and developed over the last century.
Leaving tranny, diff and break fluid in for years and years and over 100,000+ miles is simply irresponsible. You are reducing the useful life of those components and will eventually pay for the lesson in hubris. That is, unless you sell the car to some unsuspecting chap who has to pay for your neglect.
BTW: many manufacturers require brake fluid changes as part of routine maintenence; BMW says every two years, or about twice the typical life of their synthetic engine oil.
The most rational and defendable recommendation anyone can make as it pertains to fluid maintenence is "read and follow the owner's manual". Also, if you are buying used cars, make sure you see a complete service history of proper maintenence. You do NOT want to get one of wwest's cast-offs.
HiC
AND. My "cast offs" either go to relatives and company employees, that's how I know that these accelerated maintenance schedules consist mostly of a bunch of malarkey, I can keep relatively close watch as theh mileage grows and grows.
AND. At what level down into the earth do you think much of our oil comes from that does not have temperatures and pressures greatly exceeding those of automotive engine operation?
Blow-by: I have NEVER contented that engine lubricating oil shouldn't be changed out on the factory recommended scheduled basis.
Just what I, and others of my aquaintence, have always suspected.
Back "when", oil was distributed in glass (fruit?) jars and undoubtedly was the pure stuff. There was no scheduled maintenance because the engines burned and leaked it so fast it was "replaced" before the need arose.
Don't know about the diff fluid but the tranny has a light creamy color it could be recycle with coffee and donuts . A little sarcasm and tabasco sauce . I am keeping quite now right now . Thank you .
Speaking of 2X4 err. four x four .. vodgut has a good idea a 4X468FCSSW he definitely could use more smokes.....
Just having fun .....
For better traction, give me two pair...
Steve, Host
AWD is different in that it always has a way to automatically redistribute torque on as required basis. Basically the AWD system is intended to overcome the shortcomings of the full-time 4WD described above.
Some AWD systems currently on the market, such as the RX300, only pretend to have AWD. Others, like the ML320 and the X5 truly are AWD vehicles, both in high and low traction conditions. The Chrysler AWD minivan series, as an exception, is primarily FWD and only becomes truly AWD in adverse roadbed conditions.
Up until now the Ford Aerostar likely represented the best overall compromise for an AWD vehicle. Normally 30/70 torque distribution front to rear, and automatically 50/50 if disparate driveline rotational rates developed across the center diff'l.
Full-time 4WD as described above will distribute torque equally to all four wheels as long as all four wheels have roughly equal roadbed traction. The problem becomes that should any wheel lose traction then you suddenly have a one wheel drive, the one with no traction, of course.
Adding in a rear LSD overcomes this problem partially in that it operates to deliver some "limited" level of torque to the wheel opposite of the one with no, or little traction.
Most likely time will indicate that the only really viable AWD will be the electronic one first introduced in an SUV by MB's ML series. The Toyota Sequoia now uses that same system as will the upcoming RX330.
should read:
Full time 4 wheel drive...
More "sorries"...
Unless I've forgotten how to read entirely, or maybe how to comprehend what I read, Cliffy has no explanation of full-time 4WD anywhere in the series of dessertations in this thread. At least not anywhere near the beginning.
Steve, Host
There are, after all, quite significant differences between a full-time 4WD system and any AWD system. Also, does anyone know of any full-time 4WD system that is not simply a "sub-mode" of a part-time 4WD system?
Steve, Host
Which leaves us with AWD or part-time 4WD. No need to discuss part-time 4WD, it is what it is. Some action is required of the operator to switch from mode to the other. REQUIRED is the operative word here. Serious damage can be done to the drivetrain if the operator is not knowledgeable or is for some reason unwitting (like Bush) of this requirement.
The problem that immediately arises with AWD is the myriad of versions out there in the current market and just how one choses the right one for each individual's overall needs, requirements, and "image" requirements.
For myself, for instance, I have very little doubt that the BMW X5, at least at the current time, offers the best of the best for AWD. Then why do I currenty own my second RX300?
1. Don't care for the BMW name, just simply can't explain, something "build-in" I guess due to life's experiences.
2. Price, more appointments in the RX for less money.
3. Lexus (underdog?) fan.
4. front dash and steering wheel not color matched.
Hoping the RX330 will level the playing field.
Oh, the old Ford Aerostar, IMMHO, offered the absolute best AWD for its time, 70/30 F/R torque distribution that switched to 50/50 on low traction surfaces.
My personal opinion is that AWD torque should be biased primarily to the rear allowing whatever roadbed traction exists at the front to be allocated to directional control.
Future VSC designs will likely apportion torque to the rear automatically if VSC sensors indicate understeering.
We're down to deciding between the 03 Highlander (AWD) and the 03 4Runner (4WD). This will be my first SUV, and I've no exposure to 4WD systems. If I were to go with the 4Runner V6, how intuitive is it to change between the 3 setting (2WD, 4L, and 4H)? What road conditions would require which setting? My fear is I get a manual 4WD system, and have no idea when to use it (or worse, use the wrong setting to at the wrong time!). I live in MA (this winter was horrible for snow!), and do not plan on doing a ton of off roading.
I know that the 4Runner V8 has a full time 4WD system, but I'm not sure that is of benefit to me (not to mention the loss of gas mileage going to the V8).
Thanks!
You probably won't need 4L unless you go offroad. From what I understand, you can leave it in 4H as much as you want if road conditions look at all like they're going to be adverse. 2H is for dry roads, probably when you're not expecting any adverse travel conditions.
I'm not positive, but I believe changing between 2H and 4H on the V6 is as simple as turning the dial. To go to 4L I think you have to be stopped and in neutral or something.
I don't think the V8 gas mileage is much worse than the V6 - 1 or 2 mpg. I like having the full-time system, the 5 speed transmission, and the sound of that V8 burble.
Just got to drive mine this morning in some real snow, it handled wonderfully.
If you look at this pic from Edmund's review:
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/road- tests/roadtest/03.toyota.4runner.limited/03.toyota.4runner.int.50- 0.jpg
The 4WD dial is just to the right of the keyhole, just to the left of the climate controls.
Therefore technically an AWD system.
mabucfan:
Neither the HL nor the current RX have a reasonable level of AWD capability, both are primarily FWD, with some minor ability to deliver engine torque to the rear. 90/10 F/R torque split the "instant" a front wheel slips, as much as 75/25 with continous (tens of seconds) front wheel slippage.
If you can accept the extra bulk and weight of the 03 4runner and still seat only 5, go for it. The 03 4runner does have one of the best driveline systems out there.
For the technically inept then - the Highlander is not a true AWD system? If one of my concerns is reliability in inclement weather (after this past winter!) - that sounds to me like a slam-dunk for the 4Runner (?).
vodgut - can you clarify the V8 system: your options are 2WD and 4WD only? Do you find that is all you need?
And I guess my last question - 2WD for most weather, 4WD H for inclement weather (rain or snow)?
Thanks again, this info is a huge help in my decision making!
The only advantage to having it be able to go into 2WD like it does on the V6 is slightly better gas mileage and maybe a little bit of savings in wear and tear on the driveline. But it's not much different - the EPA figures are only 1 to 2 MPG better for the V6 than the V8. I find I'm getting 17 or so MPG with the V8 in mixed driving.
On the V6 model, yeah, 2WD for most pleasant weather, 4WD Hi for inclement weather on the road, and 4WD Lo for some off-road applications (rock crawling) and anywhere you need a lot of power/pulling but don't want to move very fast doing it.
I imagine the HL will handle most bad weather very well, but the 4Runner is going to handle it better. It's a more substantial vehicle with better ground clearance. The VSC is also helpful, I don't know if the HL has this. The advantages to the HL are better mileage, it's a bit smaller and car-like, and it's cheaper. My step-aunt has a HL and she loves it. Drives it between Colorado and Montana all the time. I'll be taking my 4Runner up to Montana around Memorial Day....
My last question (for now anyway) - do you really have to use Premium for the 4Runner? I am trying to justify the markup from the Highlander – and this is the last hurdle. I’m assuming it wouldn’t be listed if it weren’t recommended, I’m just not sure why it would be necessary.
Thanks again.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12
The link applies mainly to V6 4runners. V8 4Runners have full-time 4wd system. As stated above, there is no 2wd option on V8 4x4 models.
I myself have used both regular and mid-grade, no ill effects so far, but I only have 600 miles on the vehicle. I personally wouldn't spend any more for premium over mid-grade, and if regular works OK, then use that most of the time.
#2 of 771 Actually... by drew_ Feb 05, 2001 (8:24 pm)
it's a lot more complicated than that. I blame it on the manufacturers and magazines who use the terms interchangably. There are variations on a theme, of course, but this is basically what it boils down to:
4WD = Low range and High Range gearing
AWD = Only high range gearing
Part-time 4WD: No centre differential. Cannot be used on dry/wet, semi-slippery roads due to the lack of the centre differential. When activated, both front and rear axles are physically locked to each other and have to spin at the same rate. This becomes a problem when turning on sufficiently high friction surfaces. Examples: Suzuki SUVs, most 4WD pickup trucks, cheaper SUVs.
Permanent 4WD:. No two wheel drive mode. System is equipped with a centre differential, and hence is safe to use on all surfaces. All four wheels are powered all of the time (usually 50/50 front and rear axles). This is arguably the best system since the torque split ratio does not change and is the most predictable. All wheels "help out" all of the time and this stabilises the vehicle + improves handling. With the extra two drive wheels, the vehicle has twice the amount of traction all of the time (even in no-slip conditions) vs. a 2WD vehicle. Examples: MB M-class SUV, the Range/Land Rovers.
Full-time 4WD: Basically permanent 4WD but with a 2WD mode. This was born out of customer demand (for a 2WD mode). Examples: Toyota Sequoia, Mitsubishi Montero.
Permanent AWD: Basically permanent 4WD but without low range gearing. Examples include the Audi Quattro AWD system, the MB's 4-matic AWD system, Subaru's manual transmission AWD system.
Full-time AWD: System is active at all times, however in most cases, the one set of wheels (usually the rears) only receive 5-10% of the engine's power unless slippage occurs. At that point, power is progressively transfered to the opposite axle to help out. Some systems can transfer power to the rear upon acceleration to improve traction. However, they revert to 2WD mode when coasting.
Hope this clarifies things for everyone!
Drew
Host
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