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My second point is I do not agree with Edmunds' $13,000 barrier and they did not explain how they came up with it to my satisfaction.
Can anyone tell me if they know how Edmunds came up with the $13,000 figure?
And Edmunds does not tell the whole story about the safety of the Focus in their review. It says that "NHTSA crash test scores are very good for a small car." This does not tell people that the hatchback (as we have discussed before) scored one star in protecting a rear seat occupant in a side impact crash.
Now contrast that with what they tell people about safety in the Echo review. "Toyota says that the Echo was engineered to provide crash protection that matches the larger Camry, and U.S. crash testing indicates that their design goal was met, as it scored well in National Highway Traffic Safety Administration tests. But remember, those test results are only good when comparing vehicles of the same weight."
Now if Edmunds misleads the readers about the Focus in a positive way, it misleads the readers about the Echo in a negative way. Yes, the frontal crash tests can only be compared within weight class, but the side impact crash tests can be compared between any two (or more) vehicles.
Yet more evidence that Edmunds holds the Echo to a different, higher standard than some of the other cars it reviews.
As far as comparisons with the Sentra XE, there are other considerations than safety for the ZX3 that give it an advantage, such as standard features like FM radio, alloy wheels, tach.
Regarding the Focus, Echo, and Sentra reviews and their coverage of safety, I would think that if the reader is interested in rear seat safety then they would buy the sedan, which did well. If not then at least they would get the side-air bags, which incidentally is not an option on the Sentra XE.
I asked you to cite passages from my reviews that you think is evidence of my bias.
Just want you to know that I am still waiting.
I guess you believe in "convicting" people in the Court of public opinion.
No conviction, but a FINAL word of thought for the review: balance.
Do you think the Elantra is made of gold or something? ; )
Night fellows, I think I am going to hit the sack.
One thing that did not impress me with the Sentra was the Average rating on structure/safety cage. There was more intrusion into the passenger compartment than, say, the Elantra. Also, without side air bags on the tested model, the dummy's hit hit the B pillar "producing a high head acceleration... indicating the possibility of head injury." Like I've said, it's not a stellar group for crash safety. It looks like no matter which car you choose, some body part or someone in the car is at risk. With the Sentra, your head will get bonked from the side. With the Elantra, the air bag will protect the side but if the front air bag deploys late as in the test, you'll hit the steering wheel. You'll likely get leg injuries (if the driver) on either the Sentra or Elantra. In the ZX3, the front passengers should fare well but get ready to call 911 for the rear passengers.
My personal view is that I am not as concerned about the poor IIHS showing of the Elantra as I would be if it had poor NHTSA tests. Why? This may sound weird, but I worry less about my safety as driver than the safety of the passengers (usually my kids). I have total choice in deciding to drive the car; the passengers do not. Also, I have lots of life insurance and really good medical insurance. :-] The excellent passenger front crash score and very good rear crash scores give me some peace of mind there. Of course, I'd like it better if the driver's air bag always popped on time and the seat track stayed put.
Re Edmunds.com pointing out that the crash test scores of a Camry should not be compared to that of an Echo--maybe they did that because Toyota itself made the comparison between the two in crash protection, which Edmunds may have seen as a no-no given the strict IIHS and NHTSA rules on comparisons of cars with large weight differences. And where is the inaccuracy in saying that the ZX3 has very good scores for a small car? Look at its competitors in the Economy class--it does have very good scores compared to them. But it would not have hurt to say, "The ZX3 has very good scores with the exception of the rear side impact score, which was poor." Whether that is bias or just an honest omission, who is to say?
But,maybe less for more is better.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Kyle
After wading through all of the previous posts about quality and safety I half expected Jack Nicholson to make a post that read: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
Happy low-end motoring.
....."W. C., .., of ......, also was killed Friday morning while traveling.....after one of the wheels on her Subaru fell off. (Names and places omitted by me for privacy reasons). C. died instantly when her vehicle was struck by another car. A father and his two children in the other car were uninjured."
Oh, host?
Maybe the Lockheed Martin plane is better...but we will NEVER know. Politics as usual. More people prefer to fly on Boeing planes than any other.
Also, Edmunds bills itself as where smart car buyers get information. Well, to be a smart car buyer, you need complete information. Edmunds is not giving that to us.
In their defense, at least they do provide the safety results for the Focus ZX3 in the section for safety ratings.
But their statements in the reviews of both the Echo and the Focus are misleading. Also, like I have said, I have read about four articles regarding the Elantra and there was no mention of its poor showing in the IIHS test.
I find that pretty disturbing.
I honestly believe that the section was written in such a way to demean the Echo and downplay its relatively good crash test results.
I also honestly believe that Edmunds was still trying to validate its "Isaac Newton" comment present in the original review.
For those who don't know, before the tests were done, Edmunds made mention of Toyota believing that the Echo should do well in the crash tests. Edmunds had a very condescending statement that crash tests were not done so it was not known if Toyota was going to be able to refute one of Newton's laws.
This statement was still in the review months after the test results were in. A fact I (and others) pointed out.
When Edmunds revised the Echo's review, they did it in such a way to downplay the good test results.
It just seems that Edmunds attitude toward the Echo goes way beyond simple dislike.
Hmmm, I did not know that airlines give people a choice as to who made the plane they are going to fly on.
I know the last time I flew, the ticketing agent did not tell me I had a choice between a Boeing and a McDonell (sp) Douglas.
How do you figure that more people PREFER to fly on a Boeing made plane?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.autofan.com/newsdetail.asp?id=37
It kind of reminds me of the little Chevy Sprint we saw for years that competed head-to-head with Ford's Festiva(yes, the Festiva was built by Kia and carries a good reliability reputation, dudes). An answer to BMW's MiniCooper? Smaller than MiniCooper? Developed with Suzuki with a Japanese release of the car and an American release. I WAS WONDERING WHEN GM WAS GOING TO ENTER THE MINI-CAR MARKET! This is big news, boys! No, I'm not going to adversely judge this little go-kart 'til I know a lot more about it. The sculpt-lines Kia employs are missing on the Cruze, yes I know. It deserves a further look if you like pocket-sized cars. Loads of playthings and features available on this pup. If anyone finds out a price on this little guy please post it. It's probably not yet released to the public.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Sports cars, sports coupes, or whatever you call them really aren't my cup of tea.
I will say that I like the "batwing" Celica much better than the Tiburon.
The exterior design is much better, the interior materials are much better, the fit is much better, etc.
The back seat of the Celica is not bad for short trips, but I would not want to be back there (or in any sports car) for long trips.
Many reviewers get invited to ride and drives. That is where they spend a very short time with a new model. Many of these ride and drives are reached by the reviewer traveling on the car companies' dime.
Other times the reviewer is provided a car for a week.
If a car company does not like a reviewer's work, the reviewer faces the loss of the free travel and/or the cars. No product to review means the loss of their jobs.
I definitely don't agree with what Toyota did, but because of the "spam" comment in the Echo review, Toyota kept Edmunds from getting another Echo to review. After some negotiations, Toyota relented and Edmunds got the car. This situation is dealt with in the road test of the 2001 Echo article here on Edmunds.
This power that car companies hold over the reviewers means that many reviewers will write about the negative things in the best possible way.
Again, this is NOT simply my views on reviewers. This comes from an article about being a reviewer. I am going to try and track it down and see if I can provide a URL. I am thinking it is something that I saw here on Edmunds.
The point is just because someone found two reviews that don't share my opinion doesn't prove that I am biased. ESPECIALLY when the person expressing the opinion about my biasedness declines to point out specific instances in my reviews that he thinks proves my biasedness.
But who knows, with the Chevy Metro/Suzuki Swift going bye bye in this country, maybe this could be the replacement. But if it is, where does that leave the Daewoo Lanos?
You are incorrect. I <i>have acknowledged in posts on this board that side impact crash test results can be compared--e.g. see #837. Please do not lump my opinions in with Edmunds.
See my point?
And post #837, geeze, that was 50 posts ago now and that is before the mysteriously disappearance of some thirty-five posts. I have an excellent memory, but that is a little beyond my capabilities.
Then there are cars like the Accent, that have bland, inoffensive styling and the typical interior layout. They don't generate the same type of emotions as the unique cars. Thus they generate bland reviews.
As someone else recently alluded to here, whether or not a unique vehicle gets a positive review depends a lot on the luck of the draw of the editor. So someone who hates small, light economy cars and does not like the car's styling will give it a negative review, whereas another editor may absolutely love it. It explains the inconsistency in car reviews, e.g. one editor will think centered gauges is a great idea (especially if they are in a $128,000 BMW), while another thinks they are "dopey".
When I see reviews that attack subjective features of a car, I try to dismiss those comments as the editor's opinions and make up my own mind. For example, Car & Driver dissed the front end of the Elantra. I happen to like the way it looks. I also happen to think the ECHO is ugly, but I can see how some people would appreciate its unique styling. It can be fun owning a car that does not look like every other econobox on the road. That's one of the reasons I like my Elantra--it's different, but not too different.
I personally wish car reviewers would spend less time commenting on subjective qualities like styling, seat fabric colors, and option packaging, and concentrate on the important stuff like roominess, performance, and handling.
FWIW, Edmunds did not like the front end of the current Elantra either.
BTW, the critical reviews of the Echo seems to have been written by Christian Wardlaw, but a couple of other people have written articles. The Top 10 article that contains a factual error was written by someone other than Wardlaw.
I do think that build qualtiy needs to be high whatever price the car is.
Iluv is still around and he owns a Sportage now.
Perhaps a member decided to delete his or her own posts?
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Do you mean you expect the same build quality from a $8000 Rio and an $80,000 Mercedes? How do you define "build quality"?
Now, I don't expect the materials to be the same on the two. For example, I don't expect that the Rio would have real wood trim.
My opinion has undergone an evolution. I used to not think this way, but why not think like this? Why not demand people do a good job no matter the product?
Let's look at Kia, for example. Don't the people who are on the line that builds the Rio get the same pay as the people who are on the line that builds the Optima?
And what about Toyota? Don't the people who build the Avalon get paid the same as the people who build the Echo?
It may be naive to think like this, but what's wrong with it?
Don't you think design engineers of companies that build inferior vehicles such as Yugo, Fiat, Trabant, Daewoo, Subaru, Volkswagen, etc. have lower expectations for quality of fit and finish than a premier quality builder of such vehicles as Toyota or Mercedes?
Just suck it up and buy American...
Carleton--I can't see how you can justify lumping Subaru and VW into the same category as makes like Yugo and Fiat in the "inferior vehicle" category, e.g. for fit and finish. Subaru and VW are widely recognized for superior fit and finish. Have you examined or even driven a new Subaru or VW lately? Have you read any reviews of those makes lately? Do you have any substantiation for your statement?
And Carleton, I agree that an engineer will probably have less tolerance for gaps in a high end product than a low end product, but should they?
Someone once posted that their low end car had a squeak. Another person posted that since it was not a Mercedes, what did they expect? I agreed with that second person at the time, but think I was wrong now.
I said it was an evolution in my thinking, but I may have been thinking like this longer than I thought.
Before I bought my Echo, I took a look at the Focus. The Focus had a very clear rattle in the back end. I told the salesman and he said that they all had a rattle. It was almost like he was saying, "It's not a Ferrari, what do you expect?" Well, I expect the car not to have a rattle.
In summing up, I think there are some areas that all cars can be judged together and some areas where they should be judged against those in their class.
I think quality should be universal.