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Comments
How many times have we seen someone join in on these posts and begin by saying they only went looking for a "forum" because they had a problem they wanted to discuss with a larger group?
Is there really very many that first came here absent looking for a solution to a problem?
So, for most, no problems, no forum participation.
And, by the by, Almost very forum I participate in, at least those open to Toyota and/or Lexus discussions, has someone asking questions about this hesitation issue. Just have a look through all the FWD Toyota and Lexus forums here at Edmunds for 04 and later FWD hesitation complaints/posts.
And please, please, do not continue to mischaractorize my own statements nor my position on this. My vehicle is a 2001 AWD RX300 and IS NOT subject to the hesitation problem insofar an I know.
My vehicle does exhibit something I deem as a "precursor" to the hesitation effects, it shifts into neutral, or upshifts, during coastdown or just before coming to a full stop. Regardless, when I aggressively feed it gas it does not hesitate, at least not to any extend that I notice.
But, if you take the symptoms, effects, of the transmission "feel" in my 01, and assume that my theory of the probable case is correct, and now extrapolate that into an 04 with an e-throttle, it becomes very easy to understand why the 04 and later might have hesitation problems. Hesitation problems that many owners might never encounter, or encounter so rarely as to write them off as simple happenstance.
During throttle valve closed coastdown from 70MPH and each 10MPH increment below. Accelerate up to the selected speed and then simply take your foot away from the gas pedal.
Below 10MPH with the throttle valve closed and no brakes applied what gear is the transmission in the instant, just before coming to a full stop, and you move the gas pedal quickly to about half-throttle?
On the contrary, I'd like to see someone--anyone--show conclusive evidence that conclusions and condemnations being alluded to here are right. I'm of the opinion that hasn't happened yet.
I'm simply not sufficiently convinced there's (a)an inherent/across the board design flaw that's been suggested; (b) The problem isn't somehow related to driving techniques; (c) The problem is as prevailent as being suggested; (d) The problem represents a serious safety hazard as has been suggested. I haven't seen enough conclusive evidence for anyone to make a decisive statement on any of this. I gave my opinions, and simply qualified them as such.
Scoti, I don't place much faith in the integrity of anything in the media these days.
That article in the Chicago Trib is no exception. My point is simply this: the article totally contradicts the earlier Pittsburg Chronicle article, and validates the "left foot" theory because it is supposedly written by a professional auto authority.
I don't think either one validates any theory, except that it does illustrate the principle that one can believe/quote anything one wants, but that doesn't always mean it's right, or accurate.
It follows that principle could also apply to anecdotal reports in cartalk sites, agreed?
The only thing that works is to take the lights out of auto mode. I guess the auto sensor doesn't think it's dark enough during daytime to brighten the dash gauges. In Chicago, however, we have tons of gray days that require a little extra light.
I've also noticed that even when I'm in a tunnel or other very dark area, it takes the sensor a while to adjust and brighten the gauges. I wish it was a bit quicker on the draw.
A minor quibble though. Any advice will be appreciated.
When someone posts a problem or a question about a problem in their mind it is clearly A PROBLEM. Most of us here do not set out and ask that the poster "prove" that the problem actually exists.
It's perfectly fine for you to be a "doubting thomas" but unless you have good reason, a reasonable foundation for positing that the "problem" doesn't exist, then why not just assume, for the moment, that it does exist and help all of us look for, propose, a solution.
Or maybe even propose further test methods to confirm the claim.
If, in the end, we find that we have been chasing "wild geese", then no harm done, and most of us here enjoyed the chase while it was "on".
No doubt about the fact "it is seen as a problem" by he or she who posts it.
I can't dispute that.
I also agree that something--a hesitation--is known to exist for some, under a very narrow set of circumstances.
But here's how I see the issue:....
Are there problems defining the problem here--Problem Solving 101--remember?
I believe so.
In this hesitation controversy there seems to be far more speculation than fact in identifying the nature, scope, and data relating to the issue.
Strictly speaking, it is being editorialized to a much greater extent than analyzed.
There seems to be much emphasis on finding solutions, yet there's no clear fundamental agreement on (a) What the nature and scope of the problem is;
(b) Is it known to be a
mechanical/electrical/electronic malfunction; (c) Is is known to be related to the way suspect vehicles are operated; (d) Is it known to be a fundamental design related issue; (e) Is it known to be a safety issue; (f)Is it known to be some other as yet undefined issue; and (g) what facts are known and available to support any of these possibilities.
The answer to all these questions is a fairly clear "negative".
At the moment it seems we are chasing "Wild Geese", and there are "reasonable foundations" for suggesting that.
In my opinion it's far too premature (and perhaps even beyond the expertise and knowledge of anyone here) to even make assumptions--as you suggest, let alone propose solutions.
I'm far more pragmatist than "Doubting Thomas", my friend Wwest.
I don't believe in accusing Toyota (or anyone else) of misdeeds unless there's reasonable and probable grounds to do so.
Insisting "This is seen as a problem by those who say they have it" isn't sufficient, reasonable, or probable in my opinion.
Basically that's all I'm saying, yet it seems some interpret that as insulting, accusatory,uncooperative, disruptive, negative, acrimonious.......and a host of other uncomplimentary adjectives.
Volvo is also FWD......
I know everyone has been trying their best to contribute, but we end up with useless guessing and some rather wacky theories, which decreases the value of this board.
if it were me, and the symptoms were repeatible on my car, i guess i would try to characterise it a bit better...
the following would be something i would try to determine if by chance, there was hesitation associated somehow with the device sensing gas pedal position:
Experiment 1.
put your emergency brake on, take the car out of Park and put it in Neutral.
scenario a): depress the gas pedal a moderate amount and watch the RPMs climb, and then ease up on the gas pedal (but only slightly) and watch the RPMs fall, then apply more force and watch the RPMs climb again. repeat the cycle a few times. use both your eyes on the tach and your ears to assess engine response to pedal movement.
scenario b): repeat experiment, but instead of easing up on the gas pedal, come all the way off the pedal, then with RPMs falling (but not all the way to idle), re-initiate contact with the pedal and apply force to increase RPMs. repeat the cycle a few times.
questions: in scenario (a) is the response uniform and without discontinuity (ie RPMs rise and fall without abrupt change)? in scenario (b) is there a lag before RPMs increase upon application of force to the pedal?
Experiment 2.
find a good stretch of road without intersections and stops. choose an imaginary point in the distance where you'd take your foot off the gas to allowing the vehicle to cost down, perhaps prior to applying the brake, as if you were comming to a stop sign or light that was still red.
scenario a). instead of letting off the gas completely, try reducing pedal as much as possible but keep your foot on the gas while RPMs are falling, then apply more pressure to bring RPMs up to simulate proceeding through a light that just turned green before you got to the intersection. Repeat the cycle a few times.
Scenario B: perform the same experiment, but take your foot off the pedal completely and allow coast down, then get on the gas. But don't use the brake to slow the car. repeat a few times
Scenario C: the same as B but use the Brake to slow the car quicker than in scenario B, before re-applying the gas. repeat a few times.
Questions: was there hesitation sensed in scenario (a)? how about in (b)? how about in (c)?
these systems are pretty complex, with the interaction of the engine, transmission, and control input device.
what strikes me is that some people claim to have the problem, while others do not. one would think if it were strickly a software/programming problem, everyone would experience it, but perhaps to more or a less degree depending on driving habit. on the other hand, if it's hardware related, maybe it exists to a more or less degree on some cars, and not at all on others.
what if there were some hysteresis or other non-linearity in the position sensing of the pedal near zero, which when you are at low speed, might be much more noticeable then when you are at high speed and take your foot off the pedal, then re-apply the gas. perhaps at high speed there is the forward momentum of the vehicle and the gearing to dampen the transient.
also check out messages 2799 and 2809 in Toyota Camry Problems and Solutions
i'll go away now.
why would people try to discount the observations of the people experiencing the issue?
With e-throttle "we gain better overall control..."
"It also simplies "shift-shock" control by letting the computer ease off the throttle for smooth automatic upshifts"
Words of Paul Williamsen, cirriculum developement manager of Toyota Motor Sales USA.
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/02-2002/index.htm
If the hesitation doesn't occur on all HL's, how can Toyota call it a "design characteristic" ?
It's a rhetorical question.
I had a 2004 HL that had the hesitation problem. In fact, the dealer admitted it and noted it on the work order after the test drive. If you have time, please take the time to read post 1755 that I wrote. I ended not going to arbitration since I was traveling a lot at the time. However, I did get a letter that my HL qualified for arbitration. I ended up eating $5k and a little extra on the payment and jumped into a 2004 4X4 Sequoia...hesitation problem fixed! Okay, add some more $$ for gas too! The only reason I come back lurking here is that the Sequoia’s “problems and solutions” discussion board is boring. I find Pilot130 completely amusing... Maybe we should have a “problems with those who have problems” discussion board! Cheers!
Regards,
Rob
This is located in Maintenance & Repair.
Otherwise, my ’02 HL now has 69,000 almost trouble-free miles.
alimin
Mostly use the Sierra for everyday. Why do you ask?
If so, I'm very interested in how and what, and would like to hear the details.
However, if after 12 months of customer complaints none have been fixed, then Toyota Motors deserves to be recognized for what it is--a company that does not honor it's warranty, and does not care about, nor deliver, customer satisfaction after the sale.
#404 of 667 Extremely Surprised! by nogermancar Jan 29, 2004 (11:18 pm)
Reply
I am extremely surprised to hear that Lexus 2003-04 ES300 or ES330 owners are still having problems with their transmissions. I bought a 2002 ES300 and felt really frustrated with the way in which Lexus dealt with the whole issue. I had some very weird experiences with the service advisors.
After one year of ownership, I got a lemon lawyer and got my money back. If you have a mechanical problem that admittedly cannot be fixed by the dealerships, and your vehicle manufacturer does not work with you, then go get your four repair attempts and your money back. Simple.
Good luck to you all. I hope your future car experiences are much more enjoyable.
As suggested above, only thing that works with Toyota Motor Sales is your State's Lemon Law Arbitration. When my 1998 Camry turned out to be a piece of junk, the dealer keep referring me to the factory representative who suddenly was not available anywhere. When I went thorough Toyota's own arbitration and Toyota was asked to fix the car, they just ignored it. Only the arbitration through my State's Lemon Law worked: I got my money back and they got their masterpiece Camry back. This Camry was my first Toyota, and the LAST!
It was a toss between a Pilot and the Highlander, Honda wouldn't deal, Toyota did. Interesting tidbit about the buying experience, I used fightingchance.com and comments from here and felt I got the best deal. Also the dealer offered an extended warrenty for 100k or 6 years. While I normally would not have thought about it (toyota quality) they claim if I don't use it at the end of 6 years I get the full amount back!!! It cost about $1000. I plan on diving the H/L till the wheels fall off, but I have an added security that I can choose to use if the repair cost is substantial.
As for hesitation, I sometimes notice it going around a corner and quickly get off the brake and back on the accelerator, it's a little noticiable, but not a safety issue for me. I hope Toyota comes out with a TSB with a fix in the future.
Last, try as I may, I can't seem to get above 20 mpg. I do drive fast (70) on the highways, but really expected 22 to 24.
I used an aftermarket hitch and have had no problems with wiring.
Overall satisfaction on a 10 point scale I give it a 8.7
Volvo is also FWD......
I peruse the HL boards because my inlaws have an 02 HL, V6, thus I always keep on the lookout for any issues that may affect them.
My wife and I own the XC90 2.5T, but the tranny hesitation you speak of is largely limited to the 2.9L 6 cylinder. That tranny is a 4 speed, whereas the 2.5T is coupled with a 5 speed.
The tranny shifting problems is more of a delay between 1 and 2. Those noticing the problem see a spike in rpm's during the delay. Volvo has a software fix for the problem.
What I'm seeing on this board sounds more fuel delivery related than tranny related, though it's possible the tranny may be the culprit.
Or maybe the VSC ECU is telling the engine to ease-off the throttle to prevent loss of traction on the driven wheels as a result of too much lateral force and engine torque together.
Or both....
Now please just ask people again (repeatedly) to take this topic there.
I have put a link to the "hesitation" topic in M&R under "Helpful Links", located to your left.
I don't know whether this is normal for a bigger car with bigger interior room, I used to own a small Acura EL, and boy, the heater will make you sweat in minutes even in sub-zero weather!
Anyone experiencing similar situation?
It might be worth getting it checked out, in case it's a simple fix.
The car has only 34 miles with full gas in the tank when I Droved out of hte dealership. Once I see the "yellow" alarming for low fuel. The ODO is only show 268miles. According to the specification, the city miliage should be 18 mpg. and the tank is 19.1 gallons. I called the sales of the dealer, he can not explain this to me. He suggested me to call their service. I'll see.
My question is that is my method correct? If yes, then the mileage is too lower. If not then how can we correctly measure the mileage?
Thanks,
Only one problem or non-problem in the few days i have owned it. When driving, i feel a slight vibration in the steering wheel. Is this to be expected for this kind of vehicle? Am i being picky? (2WD 6 cyl.)
If the vibration occurs during cruise have the front wheels moved to the back, if during braking have the front brake rotors checked.
I am also looking at the magnum and the pilot.Any advice would be appreciated
However, some drivers (like myself) haven't noticed the hesitation. I have an 04 AWD V6 Limited.
Your best bet is to go drive one for yourself. If the hesitation issue is there, you'll probably notice it right away.
As many others, we have a 2004 hesitating Highlander that Toyota won't fix, only recourse is to take a big $ hit in arbitration or Lemon Law filing. If they wanted to, they could fix it now since a) it's reported canadian models don't have the problem and b) they're engineers have had at least a year to figure it out.
Bottom line--Why pay $30-35 grand for a car with a known problem the manufacturer won't fix?