Bargain "Classics"--$12,000 or Less and 20 Years or Older
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
This is still a great time to shop for that
"classic" car you've always wanted, either as a
second car for Sunday driving or as your only
wheels.
We're not talking restoration project here, but a
decent-looking, good-running car with style and
that retro look and feel that only an old car can
give.
Here are the suggested criteria for "Bargain
Classics"
1. $5,000 or less for a decent example.
2. 25 years old or older so as to guarantee
exclusivity on the road, a vintage style and feel,
and the pull of nostalgia.
3. Readily available in the U.S.A.
4. Preferably, but it's not mandatory, that there
be a plentiful parts supply.
Okay, I'll start off with my first suggestion for
potential buyers in the next post! Let's have yours
as well.
Shiftright
"classic" car you've always wanted, either as a
second car for Sunday driving or as your only
wheels.
We're not talking restoration project here, but a
decent-looking, good-running car with style and
that retro look and feel that only an old car can
give.
Here are the suggested criteria for "Bargain
Classics"
1. $5,000 or less for a decent example.
2. 25 years old or older so as to guarantee
exclusivity on the road, a vintage style and feel,
and the pull of nostalgia.
3. Readily available in the U.S.A.
4. Preferably, but it's not mandatory, that there
be a plentiful parts supply.
Okay, I'll start off with my first suggestion for
potential buyers in the next post! Let's have yours
as well.
Shiftright
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Comments
1967-1974 MGB Coupe or Roadster
For $5,000 or less, you get a good-looking, rugged
and simple car with an endless supply of
affordable parts. It's one of the last true
"classic" British sports cars that hasn't gone over the top yet in value, due to the large numbers produced and still on the road. Fun to drive (except in snow perhaps), the coupe is the better of the two in winter rain and cold.
Best years are 1967 (first year with synchro 1st
gear transmission) to 1974 (last year of chrome
bumper cars and good handling and power).
I guess this is supposed to replace 'Relatively Affordable Great Old Cars', which is now frozen.
So for relatively affordable great old cars that are less than 25 yrs old or cost more than $5K or that exist only in very small numbers, I guess we need to start new topics? Also if one wants to inquire about a car whose age and current market value they're unsure of? Or for just discussing various aspects of some relatively affordable great old cars, but not necessarily inquiring about price information and availability?
How about Lotus Elan Plus 2S's? Too much money? Too few examples left on the road? I don't know whether parts are plentiful or rare. How about that beautiful but fantastically unsuccessful Morgan coupe that almost brought the company down in the early 60's, before they gave it up and went back to concentrating on the nostalgia-mobiles that the public demanded of them? They're rare enough to be valuable, but they may still be obscure enough to be available cheap due to low demand. How about the Lancia Scorpion (Monte Carlo)? Is it 25 yrs old yet? Or the Fiat 850 Spider: parts are plentiful, but are strewn all over the road.
Also, the only way I have found into this conference is through the link from the now defunct, frozen one. The 'Town Hall' page still lists the same old conferences - none of the new ones.
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/townhall/
PS
On MGBs, I assume you're talking about fairly clean, daily drivers. My source (not gospel by any means, but worthy of consideration) lists especially clean examples at up to $7500.
The Classics conference will be fully operational by 1/31, so we're still in the construction stage. Soon though, it will appear in everyone's sidebar and the confusion will be over.
I'm sorry if the affordable old cars got frozen, I'll see if I can unfreeze it.
I picked the criteria for this topic....under $5K, over 25 years and good parts supply, because I was hoping it would actually encourage people to go find, buy and successfully maintain one of these affordable "classics".
I don't think the Lotus Plus 2 qualifies on price (they start about 7K) or parts availability (tight)or being successfully maintained by a "beginning" collector, so that's out...ditto the Morgan...
But the Fiat 850 qualifies on all counts, and the Lancia is JUST outside 25 years, but close enough to qualify on all counts, so we could count those two if you'd like to say anymore about them...both of those cars are easily found at around the 2,500-3,500 level in good shape.
I just get a little concerned that there seems to be so much emphasis on sticking to the topic and breaking down each subject into such rigid categories that creative tangents get discouraged and consequently real conversation becomes difficult. Conversation's kind of a fluid thing.
But it's mostly just my own identity problems and low blood sugar and all. I'll try to be good.
You can create a completely wide-open topic if you'd like, please, or just recreate the original Affordable Cars topic, or start an "Under $20K Topic"...whatever works for you. I'm keen for anything that's appropriate to Old Cars.
Most Edmund's users, by the way, pop in and out for information, or read many topics without participating, so it works for them to have good structure.
So, where were we? Oh, yeah, very cool retro wheels for under $5K that you can actually drive in the real world and get from one place to another without having your own coffee cup on a hook at the repair shop...
What do you think about buying late model MG Midgets (with the bizarro bumpers), and just exchanging the bumpers for the good kind?
Needless to say, it'll never have any resale value, but that don't matter. This is not for 'concours' or even 'collectible', but just for flailing around on the road.
Also, would you and any others here who can, be so kind as to compare and/or contrast the old familiar roadsters with the Miatas they've driven? It may be apples and oragnes, but there must be some aspects of a certain Miatas (early, middle or late) that are similar to (or not as good as, or better than) one old roadster or another. I'm thinking in terms of handling and general feel, mostly.
I used to sell them, and I was amazed that after having read all the hype, they didn't really feel that great, handling-wise. Most of them have power-assisted steering, for one thing. Seems really dumb to me.
But, some people still drive them and like them, so most of them do find a loving home...I guess if you don't ask too much of them and put the top down, it's a fun cheap ride into town.
While the Miata obviously looked to the Lotus for the stying que, I think the car they were really trying to imitate in feel and fun-factor were the Alfa Spyders ( of which I own one...ahem) and the MGB...either one of which is a "classic" roadster that can still deliver miles of reliable fun for under $5,000, and be totally forgiving in handling no matter how hard you push them. You have to do something truly nuts in an MGB or Alfa to have it bite you. (I almost got bit driving a BMW Z3,so I know it's less forgiving than my car).
Long live two seats, open top, rear-wheel drive, no power steering and 6500 rpm redlines...yeah!
Of course for all that work, you'd probably be better off just getting an older one. I guess I'm trying to find a way to liberate the later ones from a life of shame. Maybe it's not feasible. Maybe it's best to just give up on them. But they're so cheap.
Hey if you think that's a perverted concept, I also want to get a pre-66 Karmann-Ghia with a perfect body and install it on a 356 or 912 (911?) floorpan with a real bad body but good mechanicals.
I know it's nuts, but I think it's tragic that that excellent Ghia styling and Karmann coachwork should be known ONLY as a cosmetic improvement on a nasty old VW. There ought to be at least one Ghia on the road with mechanicals that are worthy of the body.
*Mind you, I'm into low emissions. I operate on the theory that a properly tuned car has very low emissions. You just have to keep it tuned.
Converting a post 74 MG Midget to pre75 specs?...sure, you can do it, but since you can buy a beautiful pre 75 Midget for $3,500, why bother, as you imply.
A friend of mine took one of those tragic last years of the MGB, 1980 I think it was, and rebuilt it as an early 70s car, with even more modifications beyond stock stuff..special head and carbs, lowered, converted to tube shocks, fiberglas springs, all the old chrome, overdrive trans...it was a wonderful car to drive, some $12,000 later. It is the ultimate BEE...
Fiberglas springs is an interesting thing. I'm aware of it in certain cars, but it seems like a material that oughta have been exploited for years for springs. I've often wondered why it wasn't. Titanium too, though more expensive.
Yeah, better just to get an old midge and add a hot VW engine to my imaginary Ghia. I know from bitter experience that the chassis needs stiffening. Roll cage oughta help.
Another fantasy is to just have a sculpture garden full of old junkers that'll never run again, but whose bodies are good. Park em, wax em, view them from the lawn chair.
My second choice is a '64 Chevy Corvair convertible with the same type of dash mounted automatic shifter. Any ideas?
Also, Dr. Shiftright, any red flags I should look for in buying one of the above cars? Thanks for any advice.
Three weeks ago I was looking at SUVS--a '94 Toyota 4Runner, every option except leather. But $18,500? A little steep.
Then I saw it.
1985 Mercedes-Benz 380SE. Grey/grey leather, automatic climate control, 4-speed auto w/ gated shifter, Zebrano wood trim, doors that close with a THUNK instead of a rattle like the 4runner's doors (supposedly with side-impact beams, new for '94?).
I drove it on the highway and what a pleasant surprise! Only 155 hp from the overly catalyzed 3.8 liter SOHC V-8, but it blew away the 4Runner, hands down. The mechanic gave it a clean bill of health, and one week later I bought it.
The price? Only $8500. Not too much over your target, and forget about a nasty little two-seater when you can have a supremely competent autobahn cruiser that, thanks to its heavy duty 4-wheel independant double-wishbone suspension will
keep up with a live-axle MGB in the high-speed sweepers encountered in the canyons near where I live in central WA.
Of course, if you are really stuck on sports cars, go look at an early Seventies Porsche 911. I believe the 911S had 150 or 160 hp out of the 2.4 liter flat-6...isn't that nearly twice what an MGB puts out of it's 1.8 liter PUSHROD four?
Take it from me. German (and swedish...I've owned a Saab 900S and loved it) sports machines are the way to go. BTW, the Benz has proven its prowess on a 400 mile round trip over a mountain pass and more.
I've owned 4 Saabs, and believe me, I love them but they have no bragging rights over an MGB when it comes to reliability. I had much less trouble with my three MGBs than each of my four Saabs...and I'm a pretty good mechanic, too. And when you have to rebuilt that MGB engine, it's not going to cost you $15,000 like a Benz V-8...so let's be fair...we're talking "affordable" and "classic"....mtc (my two cents)
As for the cars you mentioned, I think the TR6 is a troubled car but has many merits...it's a "man's" sports car in that man or woman you have to really put your shoulders into it to drive it. Big straight-6, which I like, and classic British looks. The TR250 is my favorite, having the old TR4 body with the I-6 engine...only made in 1968.
The TR7 I personally despise..one of the few cars made that is actually unfixable...horrendous head problems, poor engineering....too bad, it was a good handling car that was rushed to production well before it should have been. And for THIS they canned the MGB! What a poor choice!
Fiat X1-9....fun little car, better than its reputation, good parts supply, cheap, cheap to buy...where else can you get a mid-engine targa for under $2,500 in great shape for god's sake?!!
Only downside is kinda tough to work on(waterpump, 7 hours flat rate! and the window crank mechanism is cable driven and a tough job)and the build quality of cosmetic materials is about at the level of an Italian TV dinner tray. If you could find a really well-kept one with all service records, and you're under 6 feet tall, I'd recommend you try one...no speed demon, but the later models get you around just fine, and they can handle!
914-6...oh, I wouldn't say *totally* underappreciated...you can get a pretty good price for one ($10-12K)...which is about the same as the same year 911, so really I think the car is doing about as well as it can. Great car to drive, scary even, but a MOTHER to work on---ooooh! Good "Q-Ship" though...looks like a mousy little 914-VW engine 1.7 liter putt-putt and then you nail it! Surprise the hell out of people who thought they were going to dust you off.
Never owned one, though.
Yeah 914-6's. They have a reputation for swapping ends with minimal provocation. I wonder if that could be tamed a bit with some adjustments and/or bolt-on parts.
Maybe a gyroscope.
Or you could hunt down a Sunbeam Tiger, where the factory did the swap for you. Of course, working on one can be, uh, challenging. The fact that they had to cut a trapdoor next to the gas pedal to allow access to the #8 sparkplug should speak volumes. It took my brother and law and I four hours just to slide the engine in, bolt it to the mounts and attach the headers.
You know, my two cents is...if you want a car that goes like a Corvette, buy a Corvette. Let the B be a B.
Remember, it wound up with a 51/49 weight distribution, and the unit body was sufficently well braced to easily handle the torque of a modified 289, let alone the stock 260 most of them were shipped with. The first year or so, they were actually assembled by Jensen, and those ones have far better build quality than anything MG or Triumph ever turned out. With the stock 2.88 axle, it's a very nice long legged touring car.
The biggest problems with it were that you're limited to 215 width tires, unless you want to get into banging panels, and it would overheat in traffic on hot days (then again, so does almost anything British).
Yes, the steering rack had to be moved from behind the hubs to in front, resulting in some pretty weird Ackermann angles as you turned the wheel farther off center, but it's very predictable. Which is not an adjective I'd use to describe, say, a Spitfire with that "self-jacking" rear suspension.
Anybody care to comment on maintenance costs, parts availability, etc?
I looked at 2. One for about 2-2.5K, not rusty but well worn. Owner was a hobbyist who had done various work, including a replacement transmission (a common problem, but easy to do in your driveway if you could find a replacement). The guys personal car was show quality, absolutely beautiful.
The other one I saw was listed at 3.5K (the owner ran one of those motorworks shops, sort of a drive-thru engine replacement place). Looked great in and out, very clean, ran strong, new top. Only problem I saw was no 2nd gear synchros, but the owner was real good at double clutching.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I bought it cheap, $1700, fixed it up, and it's a blast to drive.
I agree with whoever mentioned the 63-65 Rivieras.
Any car with an engine that displaces over 400 cubic inches and gets 12 mpg is bound to be fun to drive.
I think that if you are looking to spend under $5K on a collectible car you should stay away from the more unreliable autos (i.e. anything w/ British electrical engineering) 'cause you're gonna end up spending a lot more than $5K in the end.
So what's yer take on the Bavarian situation?
On the good side, you get a very nice, solid, well-built, great cruising, modern-feeling nice handling luxury sedan for cheap, cheap, cheap! On the bad side, you get a very nice luxury sedan that overheats regularly, has terrible a/c, and carburetors from hell...(unless you get the 3.0Si)those Solex/Zeniths...they stumble and stall no matter what you do, especially when cold. Also, water pumps go out a lot...you'd be lucky to get 40K out of one.
So really, to have one of this luxo 6-cylinder cars usuable on a regular basis, you (or hopefully) the previous owner, will have to, HAVE TO, make modifications to the radiator/fans, etc., and probably convert to Weber carbs if you don't want to drive yourself crazy.
As someone once said "it was a wonderful trip down memory lane, but filled with potholes.
Let's face it...these "bargains" are bargains for a reason, so the trick is, I think, to buy the car that offers the most fun, the best parts network, and the lowest cost of repairs. That's why I'm so high on MGB, using those criteria, and leaving out the criteria of say, Mercedes-like build quality.
Haven't seen a good 124 coupe in years...bet it would be hard to find...you could try an MGB GT coupe with overdrive, that's a nice, practical and fun car and the world's first real production hatchback!
The cheapest sporty car I see is a (#1) '68-72 Midget at mid-$4000's, same as the 124. #2 is in the mid-30's.
And now for something completely different...
The '89-90 T-Bird SC is said to be a decent cheapo GT car, and it's going for the high $3000's. Some people prefer the V8 to the supercharged whatever it is. Beats me.
One thing I'm fairly confident about is finding a clean (but with a nice patina of dents and scratches) 10-yr old full-size domestic van with mid-size V8 for $3 to 4K. Talk about a classic, eh?
Handling-wise, maybe the cheapest thing to do is keep the Civic coupe and do some sane (not rice-boy) handling mods, but it'll always be FWD, and that's what I want to get away from.
Nice thing about the B is that you can get absolutely any part for it delivered to your door in two days.
I've heard that '73 was a hellish year for most imports due to a raft of new emissions standards that they all struggled to meet, some with a lot of compromises.
You refer to $5K cars. So you think a #2-rated car is a reasonable gamble? Do you feel that the 2 thousand dollar premium for a #1 car is not necessarily a good bargain?
Are there common engine upgrades nowadays: emissions system reengineering? Breathing? Replacement? (just idly curious about that last one, but there oughta be a lot of good dohc 4's that would fit, if one ever found the old engine to be unrevivable.)
Would you rather drive a similarly priced early Miata? If you and I raced to Palmdale up the Angeles Crest at dawn, one in a $5K '90 Miata and the other in a $5K B, who'd have more fun? Who'd be more comfy? Who'd need more maintenance afterward?
Some people like the 67-69 cars the best (and the prices reflect this) because they have all the right improvments (5 main bearing engine and all-syncho transmission) but very little emission control. But the 73s aren't too bad, and you know, if the air pump were to fall off accidentally, until you found another one, which could take a long, long, time, you could plug the air injection holes in the head with screw-in plugs.
There are plenty of mods for an MGB, and you can build a quite ferocious one up to around 130hp. I have seen a few conversions...one totally senseless, putting a volvo B18 engine in one and another, quite brilliant, a Mazda rotary with accompanying 5-speed trans. THAT was a lovely car and I wish I had one.
The engines are the least of your worries...what needs some modification might be some better cooling with an electric fan, putting the battery in the trunk, along with an electric fuel pump back there, too (get it out from next to the rear wheel!)...those two things alone will increase reliability. Maintenance is easy...you could fix an MGB with pieces of debris you found on the side of the road.
Miatas are nice, but they're modern and plasticky and pretty cramped inside...nice in really nasty weather, though, whereas an MGB is marginal.
1. Why install an electric fuel pump, let alone in the trunk? How will that increase reliability?
2. Why move the battery to the trunk?
3. Electric fans are easy enough. Are there some nice modern radiators from later cars that drop in with minimal trouble? Maybe with a nice overflow tank? Do people get separate oil coolers?
4. Who did the rotary conversion? Just curious. I also wonder if one of the Miata engines and trannies would install pretty easily. Glad to hear that there's potential for up to 130bhp from the old pushrod English device, but I might still dream about a DOHC in my future. Rotary's are great but thirsty, and some say, troublesome.
5. Speaking of troublesome, are wire wheels as bad as everybody says? Are Minilites in keeping with the look of the car? I know I don't care for the later generic British Leyland wheels. I don't know if they're steel or a light alloy. Older steel wheels would be better visually than those turkeys.
6. I reiterate, do you think that the $2K diff between a #1 and a #2 is a reasonable investment?
I'll have to get some MGB books, but meanwhile, feel free to drop everything else you're doing and rush to respond to this.