engine oil additives
OK changing oil regularly is good for you, but what if you're brainwashed and think additives will increase life of your engine? Has anyone with real life experience with any of the hundreds of products out there? Do they actually help decrease friction and extend engine life or are they a waste of money? At one time I used to use Marvel Mystery Oil that seems to actually help remove sludge from engine and made it run better. Anyone tried anything of use?
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Also there is no proof that the additive does not interfere with additive packages of individual oils. That's really the crap shoot of the entire matter. Better to trust that the oil has the additive package it needs.
On the other hand-I use MMO in my gas and find that it gives better gas milage. It stands to reason it will cut friction in the cylinger. I have heard others on this board which claim it reduces oil consumption. That makes sense because it would help sealing in the ring/cyl.
STP or other oil thickeners may be OK for engines on their last legs but they can goo-up your motor with sludge if you leave them in too long. Most of these contain ZDDP, a useful additive that is already in all cureent oils (albeit in lower quantities these days). I wouldn't use this stuff in newer cars. It just isn't necessary and the thicker oil may reduce your mileage and/or higher-RPM horsepower.
I like Marvel Mystery oil ... but added to gas, not oil. Sure, you might find some useful uses for this stuff where a light lubricant is needed but you should NOT thin down motor oil with this stuff. Use the proper weight to begin with. Even added to gasoline, I'm leery about Marvel Mystery oil. Could this stuff, under certain circumstances, clog fuel injectors? I know they sell a fuel injector cleaner now ... but I'm still reluctant to use this stuff regularly in a newer car. In an older, carbureted engine, I've seen this stuff reduce oil consumption, cause a motor to run smoother AND increase mileage. The last two effects were slight, but noticeable. I love this for home & garden power equipment.
As for Restore, I had a buddy with an Integra which had 200,000 miles worth of hard miles on it. It had what I figured was a broken oil control ring or two and consumed mass quantities of oil. The rear end of this car was always covered with a thick layer of oil spray as a result. My buddy tried the Restore and he figured it cut his oil consumption in half. I'd only use this stuff on an engine that was on its last legs, though.
--- Bror Jace
FTC Sues Speedway Motorsports and Oil-Chem Subsidiary
Performance Claims For ZMax Auto Additives Are Unsubstantiated, FTC Charges
The Federal Trade Commission has filed suit in U. S. District Court seeking to halt false and misleading advertising for zMax auto additives and has asked the court to order refunds to consumers who bought the products. The agency alleges that enhanced performance claims for the product are unsubstantiated, that tests cited to support performance claims actually demonstrated that motor oil treated with ZMax produced more than twice as much bearing corrosion than motor oil alone, and that the three different products -an engine additive, a fuel line additive and a transmission additive - were all actually tinted mineral oil. (02/01/01)
I think that the FTC can get carried away, but if these statements are true, I find these statements frightening. I won't put it into my car until some real proof can be shown.
any other real life experances?
rayfbaird: the gov. doesn't have the resources (except for lining pockets) to prosecute all these snake oil guys. They are sending a message. Hide-and-watch; the same is coming for food supplemnts.
In our 1990 Voyager with 3-L V6 from Mitsubishi the fuel consumption commuting changed from 17.5 mpg to 19 mpg, and acceleration was a little better. Engine still fine at 165,000 miles with new owners, no engine work.
In a 1995 SVX that made 16 mpg commuting Tufoil brought that to 20mpg, and with 5-10% better acceleration. A second SVX went from 17 to 19 mpg on same route.
The only car that did not like it was a 1993 SAAB 9000 SC turbo. The turbo was unhappy for a week, but no problems afterwards.
I actually obtained these results on 1/2 the volume of Tufoil recommended by the mfgr., so you can bet that we are not connected.
With Valvoline fully synthetic oil used for 10,000 mile periods the cost of the Tufoil is minor.
It is supposed to be vegetable based,does not affect chemistry or viscosity at all. It is NOT an Additive but a engine cleaner that really works. It has a residual effect because it cleans the rings and valve seats and valve guide seals so well.
Pen oilers are useful things and I've used this thing on all sorts of little projects. I believe this is merely a light lubricating oil with teflon in it.
I wish Redline would make a pen-oiler.
Maybe I'll e-mail them ...
--- Bror Jace
Have a great 4th!!!!
Problem with all these "miracle" additives is that they don't dare do blind tests, because if they did, it would show (I suspect, but we'll see won't we?) that with or without additives, under exactly similar conditions, you'd get the same results.
In answer to an earlier post, there is no conceivable way that Marvel Mystery Oil can change the octane number of gasoline. However, this product, with its low viscosity, can get into spaces that normal oil cannot, and reduce friction. Its old claim to fame was loosening sticky piston rings. If carbon deposits had been the problem, the fix would last until more deposits appeared.
Now we know why carbon in engines is so damn hard. After all, it is not amorphous, and it is not graphite, which is soft. No, it is or contains the buckminster fullerenes just recognized as new molecular forms of carbon in the 1980s.
The claims made for Tufoil are the same for the others that have been proven false. Has the FTC approved Tufoil? If it is simply a teflon additive as some of the others, then why does Tufoil work when the others don't?
Here are some of the FTC complaints:
Thanks for the info. Good job!!!
Nothing has been determined on ZMAX yet.
The one part of my message you failed to address is that teflon cannot bind to anything at engine operating temperatures. You have had good experience with Tufoil, I cannot say for sure it caused my premature main bearing loss. Almost everyone seems to concur, teflon as an additive has never been proven (independent lab tests) to do anything for an engine's longevity. As Arco proved in the seventies, graphite did nothing either!
The Host's comments are excellent. Also, if teflon were so great I would imagine DuPont would be on the bandwagon marketing this stuff as an additive but their own statement is to the neutral side, no evidence it makes any difference!
To armdtm: No bonding is needed, only the presence of mashed little teflon particles between two metal parts. I suppose that, if there were bonding, not more would have to be added. Another of Slick 50's defects.
Teflon clearly wears off, how many of us have thrown frying pans away when their teflon surface peeled off.
An independent University of Utah Engine Test with Slick 50 did find that more power resulted after it was applied. And you only have to add it every 50,000 miles. So what's 15 bucks?
I checked the University of Utah findings: 12% better gas mileage at light loads, 4% better at heavy loads, 5-8% increase in horsepower, 13% reduction in friction. The mileage and power are what we call "hard end-points" in medicine. There was also a report of more iron in the oil when PTFE was used, and a pressure drop across the oil filter. These things are not good, but they are surrogate end-points. As soon as it is convenient, I will have one of the oil filters changed so I can cut it apart and look inside.
There are many types of after-market additives you can buy. Some contain unusual compounds that can cause confusion for the analyst who is trying to determine if your engine has a mechanical problem. One we know of contains a lead compound. Lead is a metal common to bearing inserts. Another type additive we often run across contains silicone (which is read as silicon by our spectrometer). Silicon is often found in the oil when a fault exists at air filtration. If we do not know there is an additive in use we can easily make an error analyzing the oil.
If you are interested in having your engine oil analyzed by a quality lab, you will receive a better analysis if you avoid oils and after-market additives using elements we need to see clearly to do a thorough analysis
So I guess if you analyze oil, avoid additives.
And other questions abound?
What is more slippery than oil?
What microscopic crevice could normal hot oil not get into that Tufoil could?
If Tufoil could increase a manufacturer's CAFE ratings 8% for $10 a car, what carmaker would be crazy enough not to use it? Just dump in a can before submitting the car to government testing, and gain 8% in fuel mileage across the fleet? Engineers would kill for such results for so little money.
Obviously, it isn't true or it would be utilized by profit-hungry automakers in a red hot minute.
Another advantage of a teflon-coated engine is that, on standing unused, the coating does not drain off, as happens with oil. It has been known for at least 40 years that major cylinder bore weak occurs during warm-up from cold starts, or starts after long standing.
Meanwhile, I have verified that both SVXs went from 17 mpg at best commuting to 19 mpg at worst after addition of Tufoil, and the ngines accelerate better, like 10%.
Anyway, to get to the point, he thoroughly disses Prolong, teflon-containing products and every other friction reducing additive EXCEPT molybdenum disulfide. I haven't been able to find moly anywhere except as an additive in one brand of oil, Schaeffer's, but in the back of my mind I seem to remember it as being present in Tufoil, too.
The need to be informed.
I'm still a little leary about using this in a fuel injected vehicle. Might the oil and other compounds clog the injectors ... or might they help keep the injectors clean?
I just don't know.
For an older, carbureted piece of lawn and garden equipment you are trying to nurse along year after year, I'll give it "two thumbs up!"
--- Bror Jace
There are real ways to get better fuel mileage, but they all work in very small increments (synthetic oil, tire inflation, alignment, wind-cheating devices, perfect engine tuning, new air filter, driving very precisely, etc.). I doubt whether any combination of these could increase your mileage more than a few percentage points or whether they would be cost effective anyway.
Marvel mystery oil is just an upper cylinder lubricant. It might possibly benefit any area where gas normally goes, which is not the lifters certainly (unless you maybe put it in the oil itself, and if it had a high detergent, and if, by luck, it dislodged a sticky hydraulic lifter). But added to the fuel it could possibly help lubricate the valve stems and compression rings. I doubt any modern engine would need upper cylinder lubricant, but I don't see any harm in it.
Any additive will drain off the cylinder walls. Even solid GLASS cannot defy gravity, if you look at old windows.
I have noticed maybe 1 mpg (max) increase with MMO. Considering the cost of the stuff its nominally cost effective-but not by a lot.
Most fleet owners/managers aren't usually going to bother with something so slight. And the average car owner? Fughhedabaadett!
If you set up a test in a lab (the only place to perfectly test things) people will say (correctly) that it's not a "real-world" test. If you test something in the real world, you can't be 100% sure that you have figured out what's responsible for the changes you may be observing.
It's a catch 22.
--- Bror Jace
several answers. 1) Some of these products have patents. 2) Most of the additives are expensive to manufacture. Look at it this way, ALL. ALL oil companies put "additives" in their oil. Detergents,. Anti-corrosives, blends of synthetics, (by the way, "synthetics" begin with "crude" oil as the base...they are just refined to a higher degree than the "normal" oil.) The bottom line is that some "additives" really do improve the lubricity of the oil and really do reduce friction better than "dead dinosaurs". I'm an old dog....but even I can learn a new trick. This is the 21st century.... and this is not your father's Oldsmobile anymore. If you have specific questions, you can reach me at allaboutcars.signonsandiego.com. Car Guys