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Comments
$10,495 + t&t
It doesn't sound like a good deal compared to September when the rebates were higher, but those rebates are gone now. Your friend is getting a decent deal based on the current climate.
But I wouldn't touch an Elantra right now, knowing that in a few months there's an excellent chance the rebates will be back up to historically high levels. I'd just as soon pay a little more for a Sonata with its $2500 in rebates and get a car with the latest safety equipment, similar fuel economy to the Elantra, and a lot more room.
General rebate + HMFC rebate + loyalty rebate = $2500 (see hyundaiusa.com for details, click on the Special Offers link)
Price in today's paper for '06 Sonata GL automatic (includes ABS): $16,399 - $1000 HMFC rebate = $15,399.
List price of '06 Elantra GLS automatic with optional ABS: $16,30X - $500 loyalty rebate = $15,80X, less whatever discount can be negotiated.
So assuming I can negotiate a really good discount on the Elantra, say $1000, that makes the Sonata only $600 more than the Elantra. The Sonata includes side curtain airbags (six total), electronic stability control, and active front head restraints. The Sonata hasn't been tested by the IIHS yet but did score 4 x 5 stars in the NHTSA tests. That in short is why if I were buying a car today, I would rather pay the extra money for the Sonata than the Elantra. In a few months... who knows??
But, more importantly, it means the Edmunds TMV doesn't have much meaning. If anyone from Edmunds wants to weigh in, feel free. I'm not going to begrudge the dealer making $500 on a deal like this, but a secret profit of another $1,000 would be nice to know about, folks.
If a sales manager doesn't want to sell you the car at a certain price, he/she won't do it. Negotiation isn't personal for them--it's part of their job.
(I think I have a reasonable chance of dealing with the same guys before Dec. They'll be earning their money that day, for sure.)
'04 GT 5-door with automatic, moonroof, ABS/traction, purchased March 2004: $13,200, which included a $499 maintenance package that the sales manager "threw in" after I found out the car they sold me was a demo from the Midwest auto show circuit. The discount included $2500 in Hyundai rebates (I think the mix was $1500 general, $1000 loyalty) and a $500 auto show discount. I think list was $17,414, plus the maintenance package which covers scheduled maintenance for 3 years. Bought it on the last day of the month, on a Friday night, one hour before closing, no one else in the dealership.
I think I've finally come up with a way to figure what the actual dealer cost on cars might be. You look to see what a comparable model from another brand is being heavily discounted to. For example, right now '05 Forenzas are being advertised locally at two different dealerships like this: $10,988, "2 available at this price," and $11,988, "all in stock." I'm skeptical that I would find the 2 cars at the former, but the latter was willing to sell at his price, no problem. Now, I don't think that Forenzas are as good as Elantras, but it would not surprise me if Hyundai and Suzuki didn't sell to the dealers at roughly the same discount. Now, the TMV on the Forenza is 12,874 with a 1,500 rebate, the invoice 13,631. That's a higher national invoice than the Elantra. Based on willingness to sell, the dealer cost on the Forenza must be close to that 11,988. In all probability, the Elantra cost is also in that range. That means, to get a reasonably aggressive price on an Elantra I should have been shooting for at least $500 below the invoice. If I were financing, even lower. I'm going to guess that the "9" that the sales manager pointed to on his screen meant $900 or maybe 9% margin, if anything. Could even be his commission.
But I suppose there's a bigger picture, like how well the dealership is doing, and which exact car is being sold, dealer quota, etc. Too bad I learned this all aftwerwards, but I've always owned used cars. However, the knowledge won't go to waste. I appreciate the info, folks.
I'm going to make one last comment here before I leave the office and most likely the BB. The thing about sales reps not remaining long, backy...
That really says it all about the moronic way the auto retailers operate. (And they like it that way.) Not only is the buyer screwed much of the time, but, because of that fact, the salespeople are confronted with tremendous pressures. Turnover in these jobs is high because of the moral quandary the salespeople are put in. Do you want to make lots of money? Then learn to lie and turn on the heat. Lie, heat, lie, heat, lie. After a while, even when they're telling the truth, no one believes them. Only the most gifted, or most oily, can survive in that jungle. The gifted are the ones who can steer the customer without overtly lying, merely suggesting. The owners like this system, because they think it's a Darwinian method of finding good sales managers and they are right.
The interesting thing is, this method only works with a few products. Imagine using the bazaar (market) method for everything you bought. I guess then we'd be living in Turkey or somewhere. LOL. But if you think about it, in the USA very few consumer businesses rely on such ambiguity. It's pretty inefficient from an economic point of view.
I'll come back later to report how my next purchase goes. Good luck to Elantra shoppers.
* I'm not sure the method you have developed to determine the "real" dealer cost will provide an accurate figure. Looking at the sale price of one car from one company to estimate the dealer cost of another car from another company seems prone to error. In my experience, the invoice figures posted by Edmunds.com and other online services are pretty accurate. Sure, some dealers will add on an "advertising fee", but if so they can show you the invoice and then you know what it is. The thing is, you never know exactly how much money a dealer is making on a car because there are holdbacks, mfg-to-dealer discounts, and special sales programs that can garner the dealership more money for selling, say, a particular volume in a given month. If your sale is the one that puts them over the top for that bonus and it's near the end of the month, you might get a really good deal on it. I've had good luck sticking to an "invoice (w/o adv fees) less rebates" maximum, at least on cars in good supply and strong competition, like Hyundais. I try for lower, but I'm content if I can get invoice less rebates. The dealer should make some money then (and if not, they can say "sorry, no deal") and I get a nice discount. In special circumstances, e.g. lower discounts are advertised, or it's a demo, or.... then I'll shoot for a lower price of course.
* There are some really good car salespeople out there, and some not-so-good ones. If you want to avoid dealing with the not-so-good ones, there's a number of ways to do that, for example, use a buying service like Costco or AAA, or go to a "no-haggle" dealership (where sales reps are salaried vs. commission).
Found an '05 Silver GT w/ ABS/TC, sunroof + deflector and cargo net. MSRP is $17.7; first offer was for $17K before rebates.
Edmunds invoice shows $16,350 and TMV of $20 over that.
Any thoughts as to what I should offer?
As for the deflector, I find there's little wind noise from my GT w/o the deflector. It has a built-in deflector in the mechanism. Unless you really like the looks of it (I hate it myself), you could tell them you don't want it and have them remove it (or at least not charge for it).
P.S. You didn't mention it, but this is an automatic, right? If not, the price seems too high.
And no, I don't need the Hyundai ... the Focus is just fine. It's just that at the moment, my daughter is driving my car (loaded '03 Saturn L300) and she can't/won't drive the Focus, as it's a stick. So, the thinking is that the Focus would be traded in for something that has, at the minimum, the following equipment:
Automatic
ABS
Keyless Remote
Thanks for the feedback ... I'll talk to them in the next day or so and offer invoice and see what they say. The deal would also depend on where they hit fhe value of the Focus in trade.
Edmunds.com doesn't even have pricing info for a '05 GLS with ABS and moonroof--was that combo available late in the year, as it was not ever available on the GLS before?
I have driven the redesigned '06 Rio and came away unimpressed with the acceleration with the automatic transmission. It seemed as if you had to constantly keep the throttle floored in order to keep up with traffic. Other than that, I was impressed with the standard safely and convienence features. I suspect that the new Accent will have the same pros and cons.
The 138HP in the Elantra mated with the automatic, I would think, would give better acceleration. I think I'll drive it on Saturday and show it to my daughter and see what she thinks.
As far as the car and acceleration--plenty of pep. I'm not crazy how the AT shifts out of first, but it'll do. My mother has a Camry, and I almost like the Elantra more.
When I was at the dealer yesterday, I had a quick conversation with the sales manager ... very pleasant, not a lot of pressure.
At this point, I need to take the car on a test drive and let my daughter have a close look at it. This will probably happen on Saturday ... the salesman has indicated that I can come get the car and take it to her (she works on Saturday and the dealer is about 15 or so miles from where I live).
The big sticking point, I think, will be the trade value. My research shows that the Focus is worth $7500 in trade-in value (plus or minus a few hundred dollars depending on which numbers you use). When I drive the Elantra on Saturday I'll have them take a close look at it and give me an idea of what they want to offer.
Yes, I know I can get more for it if I sell it myself .. just not sure that I want to go that route. We'll see.
Also, the dealer I'm working with has a silver GT sedan that I'm interested in, so it would have the leather interior rather than the cloth.
Not having driven the Elantra yet, I cannot make any comments with regards to the ride and handling as compared to the Focus.
I do know that the Focus has been a good car for us - utterly reliable, decent mileage (I've been averaging around 30MPG) and quite versatile (the hatchback has allowed us to put a 6' tall cat climber into the car). About the only thing I'd change is the transmission -- when we bought it, we sort of 'settled' on the stick rather than get the automatic. Bad choice.
I understood; I was just trying to compare the Elantra to something you already knew.
Also, the dealer I'm working with has a silver GT sedan that I'm interested in, so it would have the leather interior rather than the cloth.
I originally planned on the GT but after test driving a GT on a 100 degree day I decided maybe that wasn't such a good idea in Texas. I like most of the other GT options though.
Not having driven the Elantra yet, I cannot make any comments with regards to the ride and handling as compared to the Focus.
The Focus to me seemed more glued to the road. My first impression of the Elantra was that of a cat trying to cross a stream without getting its feet wet. It definitely has a feel different from the Focus I test drove and the Ford products (Escort and Taurus) I own. That said, I really like the ride now. If you end up buying the Elantra but decide it has too much body roll in the corners, you can install an 03 Tiburon anti-sway bar for about $110. It's a very easy install that took me about 10 minutes and improves the Elantra handling noticeably.
I do know that the Focus has been a good car for us - utterly reliable, decent mileage (I've been averaging around 30MPG) and quite versatile (the hatchback has allowed us to put a 6' tall cat climber into the car). About the only thing I'd change is the transmission -- when we bought it, we sort of 'settled' on the stick rather than get the automatic. Bad choice.
I almost bought a Focus before settling on the Elantra. Ultimately I found the Elantra to be smoother and quieter on the highway and considering I was getting it as a highway commuter, that was a high priority for me. I can't say I'm getting 30 mpg, but I'm getting high 20's and the popular wisdom is that mileage improves after the car is broken in (I have barely 1500 miles so far). One thing that put me off the Focus was the black-on-black in the hatchbacks. I ended up with a gray interior in the Elantra, but it isn't as monochromatically dark as the interior of the Focus.
If you're pleased with the Focus you own, that's a solid choice. The Elantra is very close and I think it comes down to priorities in terms of ride quality, noise, options, etc.
The Focus I almost bought was a 3 door, and it was during the height of the employee pricing craze. I would have paid $13k for the car; I ended up paying about $1k more for the Elantra and to me, it's been worth it.
Of course, I could always keep the Focus and continue to drive it, but that means that my daughter will continue to drive my Saturn L300. I know it sounds selfish of me, but dog gone it, I bought that car almost 3 years ago and haven't driven it in the past 18 months.
doohickie - sorry, I must have misinterpreted your response to my original post. We bought the Ford mainly because we were at the end of a lease of a Ford Explorer, and Ford sent us a coupon whereby they would pay off the remaining payments of the lease (in our case, over $4000) if we bought or leased another Ford product. So, didn't really do any comparison shopping at the time.
It's getting to that time of year where the family buys a new vehicle. Each November for the past 3 years, we've bought a new car:
11/02 - purchase of 2003 Saturn L300
11/03 - purchase of 2003 Ford Focus ZX5
11/04 - purchase of both a 2004 Saturn VUE AWD V6 and 2001 Saturn L200
I am still looking for a GT, so please help me out. Thanks.
So, let's see...they must be manual, and maybe are demos. But as far as I know, the most basic Elantra comes with air and power windows, right? Assume they add destination and we're at 10,500. Add tax and license and we're out the door at 11,500. Theoretically, they could let go of an automatic for somewhere around 12,300 OTD.
I'm gonna call them up and see what they tell me. Just be aware, anyone who happens onto this BB, the blow-out time is here. Sheesh.
According to the sales manager, this was an old ad from the fat rebate days, and should not have been running. To his credit (and legal obligation) he offered to find me a car for that price. His story was that the price reflected both the previous rebate and a customer loyalty rebate (neither of which are mentioned in the ad.) I don't know if I believe this story entirely, but it's plausible.
If I were a tort lawyer, I'd be all over these people. Forget the tobacco companies, everyone knows cigarettes will kill you. These jokers also run ads in the paper where you have to get a magnifying glass to read the disclaimer. Stuff like "net cost does not include aftermarket items added by dealer." What a whacko business. If they were K-mart, the lawyers would be all over them.
Torts fall into three general categories: intentional torts (e.g., intentionally hitting a person); negligent torts (causing an accident by failing to obey traffic rules); and strict liability torts (e.g., liability for making and selling defective products.)