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tidester, host
The 03 4Runner has a much better stereo than the Odyssey ( what doesn't) , rides almost as well on the road, carries 4 passengers with ease. (The one time I had 6 people in my Odyssey it bottomed out at the end of my driveway)
I came to this topic with my flame suit on and with asbestos gloves.
The Ford Expedition is not quite as big, but it does have headrests and shoulder belts in all seating positions. Plus, for 2003 it also has a new independent rear suspension, wider track, rollover sensing and canopy side impact airbags, tire inflation monitors and Advancetrac stability control. If you get all these options, it's a nice step up from most large SUVs in terms of safety... The Suburban also still lacks LATCH from what I understand...
I'd still rather have my family in a minivan, personally, but SUVs are finally catching up with advanced safety features.
BTW I had reliability problems both with a 96 DC and a 99 Odyssey. I got the 4runner primarily because it's a Toyota. I can take it off road, too. Somthing both I and my wife have wanted to do for several years. I have previously owned 2 Jeeps which I took off road. Low end torque is crucial for off road use, in my experience. I did like the hand throttle on the stick shift jeeps after stalling out on a steep hill.
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1. There is no luxury minivan available. The top trim lines of available minivans cannot be confused with Mercedes, Lexus, or BMW poshness. There should be an option for people who need a minivan and who want such luxury.
2. We use a wheelchair lift. The rear openings of SUV's are usually too short for such lifts. 41" are needed. The Sequoia only offers 38", and the Lexus GX470 only offers 37.5". I wish that SUV's could have larger rear openings!!!!!
3. The new 3rd row seats in Honda and upcoming Toyota minivans is not a good thing for us! The lift must be bolted to a solid floor in the rear corner. The disappearing seat's well prevents such a mount. If we go with such a van, we may have to get a converter to reconstruct the entire rear of the vehicle.
4. If the rear problems cannot be overcome, Chrysler and Ford minivans are options. We have read about possible reliability issues with the Chryslers. The Ford are always disappointing in terms of the interior. However, we may not have any choice. :-(
We will visit showrooms this weekend to recheck the possibilities. The new VW SUV deserves a look and rear opening measurement. The upcoming Sienna is eagerly awaited. The opportunity to get a new car should be a great time. However, this SUV (rear opening, entry height) vs minivan (no luxury, rear seat issues) is a big problem.
page 5 photo 7 looks like no 3rd row seats
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/look_ahead/conceptcar.html#fchv Go to the top right grey area and click on "2004 Sienna".
Some of our comparison articles might give you some research ideas.
You're probably already familiar with the info in this article, but I'll toss it out here anyway. Good luck!
Steve, Host
Toyota will have a rampvan conversion for the new Sienna. I think that the picture on page 5 in deepan's link comes from this rampvan. This will be an option for us. However, we are first hoping for a solution with a hoist-type lift in the rear. At this point, my wife's mobility allows us the option of having a standard van with a rear lift. The lowered ground clearance and required side space are concerns to us about the rampvan concept. But it is nice to know that such an option exists. Thanks.
Seb
bluedevils - I just see no reason that manufacturers couldn't make a true luxury minivan. In fact, the concept of a luxury minivan seems no less reasonable than a luxury SUV. I would wager that most luxury SUV's rarely leave pavement anyway. Many luxury SUV buyers might choose a luxury minivan.
Our 2000 Toyota Sienna XLE is a very nice car. However, the lack of optional features such as a powered passenger seat, a great stereo, and even a glovebox light are noticiable and perplexing. Our hypothesis was that Toyota must have been trying to keep the price below a certain level. Subsequent Siennas have improved in these areas.
If Toyota/Lexus were to make a luxury minivan, I would guess that a lot of people who now buy BMW X5's, Mercedes M-class vehicles, Acura MDX's, or Lexus RX/GX/LX vans would consider such a vehicle. (Due to the size of the rear opening and the seating height of these luxury SUV's, these are not feasible options for us.)
BTW - are you a Duke Blue Devils fan? I am a UNC supporter.
Thanks,
Seb
The other rumor I've heard is that Mercedes-Benz is planning a minivan for 2007.
Steve, Host
I think they both have their strengths & weaknesses. For me, my 95 pathfinder gets me into the backcountry for fishin' & mtn biking--4wd is something I need for that (pathfinder is a passable off-road vehicle, not a "serious" 4 wheeler, I have determined from off roading in it that I'll never get another "not-so-serious" 4x4/suv, e.g. w.o. an LSD or locker on it). Back when we used to get snow here in CO--this drought is a killer--it is nice to have a vehicle that'll get around no problem in snow/ice. Its fairly tough (95, anyway has lots of steel, is built on truck chassis), can tow a small trailer, and has decent cargo room for my gear. Its fairly small & maneuverable, as far as suvs go. It does get pretty bad mpg, especially considering its not real fast/powerful, about 18 - 23 (depending on h.w./city driving, if I REALLY baby it. can go down to 16 if I'm 4wheeling, leadfooting, etc...Its way too crowded for 3 kids on a road trip.
My 01 silhouette minivan has lots of room for my 3 kids, 2 dogs, and a huge pile of our "stuff" we always end up with. lol That's what its all about. Its very comfortable, not "fast" but plenty powerful, has heat/ac in the back, has front/side airbags, and most importantly for me, it gets 20 - 25 mpg, which is awesome for such a big 'ol car! It was very reasonably priced, bought used, 30000 miles ~6 months ago for $17000. We briefly considered a suburbanexcursion-type vehicle, but the horrible gas mileage, much higher purchase price, higher insurance, etc. scared us. And as far as replacing pfinder with a huge suv for off roading, no thanks, it'd be like trying to 4wheel in an ocean liner! (yes I've driven suburbans) lol Van seems pretty "plastic", and although I could probably tow our little camper with it, I don't think I will (still considering that--would need aftermarket trans cooler). The prospect of doing my own maint/repairs on van is a little frightening--although that probably holds true with most 01 + vehicles.
But both vehicles serve their purpose fairly well. Ideally, in the next few years, I plan to keep van, get rid of suv, and get a little 40 - 50 mpg econobox for commuting/around town, and find a jeep wrangler (with a locker, winch, etc.) for the off roading.
I do think, as has been argued elsewhere for almost 30000 posts by lisailor
Hey, I resemble that remark ;-)
Nice post, good summary of a particular use pattern. Of course, you're a part of the small % of SUV owners that actually do off roading, so that has to be accounted for.
But hey, to each his own, live & let live, & all that...
Hmmmmm...biting my tongue ;-)
In my earlier post, I didn't mean to imply it was not possible for automakers to cram any more luxury into minivans than they currently do; I was simply pointing out my opinion on which 2 offer the most luxury.
It's embarrassing for some of these $30k+ MSRP minivans not to include a power front passenger seat. And front heated seats are only recently becoming more widely available. Still, not many minivans are available with a moonroof, which is also a head-scratcher to me.
While it's certainly not the most luxurious minivan out there, the Kia Sedona actually offers a moonroof, a power passenger seat, and power rear quarter windows with driver and 3rd row controls, in the EX model. If Kia can include these features in a $24k minivan along with a fairly hi-tec, though not high-performance, powertrain (24V DOHC 3.5L w/5-speed automatic), why can't some of the competition include such features at much higher price points? We are very satisfied Sedona owners, by the way.
It appears that the 'slide-forward' 2nd row seat - for easier access to a kid/infant in a child seat - is available only on 8-seater Siennas; i.e., only the 2 lower trim levels (CE and LE), not XLE and XLE Limited. That's disappointing.
Powertrain will surely be zippy, but Toyota is really only catching up with the Joneses by offering a 230-hp 3.3L V6 and 5-speed automatic.
My guess would be that a Lexus-badged Sienna would cost more than $40k though.
I used to believe all the hype about, "this car isn't reliable, that car's the best, yada yada yada."
All car companies use standardized production methods and your chance of getting a lemon with any manufacturer is extremely slim.
I wouldn't worry about Chrysler reliability any more than Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, BMW, Honda, Buick, etc.
The features that you mentioned are certainly steps towards luxury. The new Sienna sounds as if many of these features will be included. The current Sienna (at least my 2000 XLE) lacked some of these (e.g. a decent stereo, power passenger seat, lumbar support, etc). A car manufacturer should take these features, upgrade the remaining aspects, and create a complete luxury experience.
A 40-45k Lexus "Sienna" would sell very well in my opinion. Some Sienna buyers would opt for this vehicle; other SUV buyers would conclude that off-road driving is not a real option for them. It would be great to have a choice.
The new Mercury Monterey may also feature luxury components. It is an upgraded Windstar that will appear later in the year. I have only seen the exterior drawings or photos.
BTW - My wife dreams of Maybach reclining seats in a luxury minivan. Such a layout should be quite possible in a luxury minivan for about 250k less than the Maybach. ;-)
Seb
There are bad samples of every vehicle make & model. Choosing one with a better reliability/quality record simply increases your chances of having one with fewer problems.
tccmn1 "Mazda MPV 2000+" Feb 16, 2003 11:35pm
Steve, Host
http://photos.thedieselstop.com/showphoto.php?photo=10942&siz- e=big&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
;-)
I'm an SUV owner and a minivan owner. My impression is that most Excursion owners are practicing the ultimate in excess. There are plenty of smaller and more fuel-efficient vehicles, SUVs and probably even AWD cars, that can plow through snow as capably as an Excursion. I see lots of Excursions here in SE Michigan, and I do not believe I've ever seen more than 4 people in one at the same time. 80-90% of the time it's just the driver.
Plus, many trucks use obsolete 4WD systems ( good primer here http://home.attbi.com/~eliot_www/awd.html ). Modern AWD systems may actually do better in poor weather, as they can react faster with more wheels getting power without actually locking them. I don't know what type is on the Excursion.
Ironically, the only vehicle I saw on the side of the road after the 4" snowfall a few weeks ago was an Excursion. Probably no fault of the vehicle, most likely overconfidence on the part of the driver. AWD/4WD doesn't make your stopping distances any shorter...
"With S.U.V. owners on the defensive, minivan owners can hold their heads high again. In a recent article in The New Republic on the S.U.V. — labeled on the cover as the "Axle of Evil" — Gregg Easterbrook not only confessed to owning a Honda Odyssey but also boasted about its 240-horsepower V-6 engine. While he didn't quite call it a muscle car, he proclaimed his minivan just as powerful as an S.U.V. while using less fuel and spewing less pollution."
I Am Minivan, Hear Me Roar (New York Times - free registration required)
Steve, Host
1999 Windstar was the MV, current SUV is an Escape.
People are always brushing broad strokes implying that all minivans are better than all SUV's, but there are exceptions.
Was that a compliment for MVs? ;-)
I think more folks go the other way, actually...but I agree with you that broad strokes do not tell the whole story.
My SUV also handles better and accelerates better than my previous MV. Braking is probably about the same and the mpgs were better. The MV had double the space and I would have missed it then. The fold down seats are better in the SUV, but I had more room behind the 2nd seat in the MV than I have in the PF with the seats down.
'86 Astro was the MV, PF is the SUV.
I do agree that broad strokes don't always tell the whole story, but comparing a really old minivan against a very recent SUV isn't a fair comparison. Nor would be an old SUV vs. a new minivan. I dare say that would be even more one-sided in favor of the newer vehicle.
In any case, other than the addition of the 4WD option, I believe my characterization of the Astro would apply to the current model as well. It really hasn't changed that much.
I had to talk my dad out of buying another Astro. He liked the idea of AWD and minivan room. I had to remind him repeatedly of how trucky the thing felt.
We got it because we had two kids, needed a lot of room and I was always carrying a lot of stuff...kid stuff and Home Depot stuff. And boy, did it have room! 170 cu ft behind the front seats!!! Compare that to the Excursion (largest SUV cargo area) with 146.
Yes, it was trucky, the handling was pretty awful, numb steering and all...but, you know...it was a workhorse. We kept it for 10 years, never had a major problem and it served us well.
An incredibly practical vehicle. Image not inc.
;-)
Cincinnati Enquirer
Steve, Host
2004 sienna.
its one of those things imo where there's definite advantages and disadvantages to both. Its nice having the floor area clear & open with column shifter, however its probably more "user-friendly" & easier to shift if on the floor
not that there's anything wrong with that, but the AstroVan is a monster - an old-fashioned van - one of the only ones that can tow, if I recll correctly (at least as of 5 years ago when I bought my Grand Caravan)
my minivan is WAY better than an SUV of its same vintage that I occasionally drive, a Ford Explorer
but the Explorer is better in the snow, so I borrow it to go to Tahoe, but drive the Explorer every day? yuck - that thing drives like a friggin TRUCK!!
:-)
I prefer the minivan for everyday driving (though I would much prefer more fun in the everyday drive, don't get me wrong)
It's bigger than other MVs (largest cargo capacity) but it is universally considered a MV.
Just want to set the record straight.
A summary: we did not have a need for the extra row of seats that a mini-van offers. So with the Escape (and several other mini-suv's out there such as the CRV), we got a vehicle that handled better, performed better, gets better mpgs, with similar features, and a much lower price than the mini-vans on the market.
If the choice was between a mini-van or an Explorer, then I would also lean towards the mini-van.
However as the mini-suv fit me and my families wants and needs well, we chose that over the mini-van.
We just got back from our spring break vacation trip 500+ miles each way (8+ hours each way with kids ages 4 and 7), and it was a pleasure to drive, as usual.