SUV vs Minivans

highender

Hi pat

Yes, I think the odyssey comes with 2 engine choices. The regular 6 cylinder, and the 6 cylinder with the auto shutoff, which turns off 2 or 3 cylinders when there is no need of hp.

both my friends have been telling me about the tranny problems , in both the TL and Pilot....they said I would be getting the tranny recalll notice sometime this year...

pat84

You are comparing apples to pomegranates.
  The forums I was refering to were "Transmission Problems" not whether or not one likes or doesn't like SUV's.
  Once again, there are no "Transmission Problem" columns in SUV topics. There are in the vans forums. These "transmission problems" are in addition to the "problems and solutions" forums found in both the Vans and SUV forums.
 Honda quoted a transmission failure rate of 1 1/2 to 2 %. This was prior to them finding a manufacturing problem with 2nd gear components in Honda transmissions. If 2nd gear is burned, you get a new transmission. If it's not burned, Honda installs a 2nd gear transmission oiler in the inspection hole. This is what I referred to as a "band aid" for a manufacturing mistake.
  In regard to Honda Odyssey transmission problems, my Odyssey left me without a transmission for 21 days. I drove a rental Chevy Cavileer. for those 21 days.
   BTW if you are one of the 2 % or so, the odds are 100% that your Odyssey transmission will fail. I believe that 2% is for every model year. I say that because Honda eventually had to change their warranty to 100,000 miles from 36,000 miles for each prior year model as they got into transmission failures below 100,000 miles. The Odyssey is like the world's most expensive Kia.
 I suggest you read the "Odyssey Transmission Problems" column.
 I assure you it is not just me.

li_sailor

My reference to the "liking" forum was merely about the link between "number of posts" and "validity of the topic claim".

...there are no "Transmission Problem" columns in SUV topics.

Does this really prove anything? The creation of topic names is pretty arbitrary as a reflection of reality.

Honda quoted a transmission failure rate of 1 1/2 to 2 %.

What is the rate for SUVs? What are you comparing this to?

... my Odyssey...

The word "my" illustrates a major flaw in the implication.

BTW if you are one of the 2 % or so, the odds are 100%...

No. Odds refer to the chance of something happening. In that case, it already happened, so "odds of happening" do not apply.

The Odyssey is like the world's most expensive Kia.

No, it's like the worlds's cheapest Bentley ;-)

I suggest you read the "Odyssey Transmission Problems" column.

I have. Really, one must read all these forums witha grain of salt. They are good input, but conclusions from limited and biased sources must not be confused with comprehensive and objective data.

You've had a bad experience. Others have, too. That's about as far as you can go, IMO.

Lots of folks have had horrible experiences with SUVs. This does not mean that SUVs should not be purchased. Not for that reason, anyway ;-)

nitromax

Once again, there are no "Transmission Problem" columns in SUV topics. There are in the vans forums. These "transmission problems" are in addition to the "problems and solutions" forums found in both the Vans and SUV forums.

Could it be that the minivans that have the tranny problems don't have many other problems and that's why they have thier own forum for tranny problems?
Where as the SUV problem forums cover the entire vehicle because they have to?

just a thought

Like I said in aprevious post....read a little into the Ford explorer problems and solutions and you'll see what I mean. They could have easily had a seperate forum just for the Explorer tranny issues, but instead everyone's been going directly to the general Explorer problems board.

tidester

Feel free to browse through the archived SUV Transmission problems discussion.

Maintenance & Repair may also be of interest.

tidester, host

pat84

As I stated, the minivans have a "Problems and Solutions" column in addition to the "transmission problems " column. I dare say there are some minivan transmission problems in the other columns, too.
  The thing that really ticked me off about the Honda was I traded in a 96 Dodge Grand Caravan on the Odyssey. The Dodge was foaming transmission fluid on the exhaust manifold. It was driving OK but I figured the transmission was not long for the world.
 I got the Odyssey with a dealer installed transmission oil cooler, even though I never towed anything with either Minivan. I bought the the Odyssey because I thought it would be reliable.
  I traded in a running Dodge with 72K miles on it, although wityh a transmission problem..
  At 68 k miles, the Odyssey transmission lost reverse and would only get up to 2nd gear in limp mode. 21 days later I had it back with a 12K mile or 1 year warranty on the transmission. BTW the replacement transmissions are not Honda transmissions. They are rebuilt by junk yards as near as I can tell from my experience.
  SO you can both keep recommending Minivans. So can I. I just say get rid of it at 50K miles.

If you buy a Honda minivan and you happen to get one of the 2% failure transmissions, there is a 100% probility it will fail someday. I did not mean after it fails, you got one of the 2%.
 If I could have predicted the future, I would not buy one that was going to fail,either.

pat84

Both those links gave me a "error 404 not found" message. ;-)

li_sailor

SO you can both keep recommending Minivans. So can I. I just say get rid of it at 50K miles.

A friend of mine had a major problem with an SUV after 5,000 miles. So...I say go ahead and buy that SUV. But get rid of it after 5k miles.

If you buy a Honda minivan and you happen to get one of the 2% failure transmissions, there is a 100% probility it will fail someday.

Maybe we need a refresher on Zen.

But...you don't know if it's one of the 2% until it fails. By then we're out of scope on probability.

Zen or probability, not sure which. Throw in some bias-avoidance as well ;-)

tidester

Thanks, Pat! I left out a "/" in my link manager - these should work:

Transmission problems

Maintenance & Repair

tidester, host

pat84

Those links were very telling. Chevy Trail Blazer's had 8 posts about their transmissions not working properly in cold weather. I found 1 Jeep Wrangler in the transmission problems in maintenance. That Maintenance Forum on transmission problems sure showed Chrysler (and a few Mazda 626) transmissions to have the most complaints.
  Compare 8 posts with all those in the vans transmision problems.
 BTW my reference to KIA is to their 100,000 warranty,and similarity to the Honda 100,000 mile transmission warranty in reaction to so many tranny failures. I could see the used Odyssey prices dropping as some of the Odyssey owners have surmised.
  I did much better trading my Odyssey in than I did with my Grand Caravan. I paid about $8K more for the Odyssey and got all that and more on trade in. The $8K more was because Dodge would deal on the price. Honda is MSRP.
  I got a great deal on my 4Runner.I just had in for the 25 K miles oil change..
  I ususully put a lot more miles a yer on my vehicles, but it sat in my driveway for almost 3 months during my back surgery recovery. I used to go out and start it once a week for 15-20 minutes to keep the gaskets oiled and get it up to temperature.
  I had an X-ray recently and didn't realize that the titanium rods are curved to follow my spine and are connected with 6 nuts and bolts, 2 each in 3 different places. My back is totally healed and I don't have to see the neurologist again.

  
.

li_sailor

To repeat, I don't think # of posts on a subject is a reasonably objective way to evaluate the reliability of a class.

Glad to hear about your back. Has it added to your weight? Are you going to have to change your TH name to Pat88 or something? ;-)

bluedevils

No, it's not objective. Nor is it very scientific.

nitromax

Chevy Trail Blazer's had 8 posts about their transmissions not working properly in cold weather.

until steve-host pointed him to the the other forum

pat84

I don't think Titanium weighs very much. Since they took out 5 disks that were crushed, i guess the weight is about equal.
  I hope the titanium hardware isn't magnetic. I can just see a metal detector wand up my wazoo at an airport looking for a non-existent weapon. I'm sure you would sympathize. ;-)

pat84

Jeep is a Daimler Chrysler product . I believe the jeep was an automatic. Chrysler is fairly famous for bad transmissions My old jeeps were not Chryslers and were 3 speed on the floor. I occasionally had to crawl under them and replace the clutch pedal to clutch linkage. I started carrying 2-3 of them with spare washers and cotter keys. It took about 5 minutes. The Jeeps had such ground clearance, I didn't need a jack to get under it.

li_sailor

It's light, but bone is probably lighter. But it's probably not a lot of metal...I hope. Does this mean you can no longer have an MRI?

tidester

I hope the titanium hardware isn't magnetic.

It doesn't have to be magnetic to trip a metal detector - it just has to be conducting.

tidester, host

pat84

I believe that the walk through "metal detectors " at airports are Helmholtz coils. which measure a magnetic distortion in the earth's magnetic field caused by ferro magnetic material. I don't believe titanium is ferro magnetic.

  If you set that off, you get the wand treatment. The wand emits an electric field that detects (by antenna loading) any conductive metal. It even gets the copper zipper on Levi's.

  The trick is to get through the Helmholtz coil without setting it off. This will avoid the wand treatment which would detect the titanium in my spine.

   Years ago I worked with a flux gate magnetometer to detect assault rifles Interestingly. the spring that raised the cartridges in the magazine was most of what I was detecting. I could detect a SUV door opening at a greater distance than I could detect an assault rifle.

  I used a very small, very low power.hand-emplacable magnetometer designed by Bob Brown,PH.D Physics.

   I worked with him personally when I had his flux gate magnetometers mass produced for a sensor system.

 NASA left some of his magnetometers on the moon.

pat84

I do believe I can no have an MRI of that part of my spine.

 Rats, I liked all that banging at different frequencies for 45 minutes at a time, too. ;-)

highender

with 4 cylinder engines may stress out the engine.

 

those with 6 cylinder engines may be better, but how reliable is the Honda Odyssey engine with the auto cylinder shutoff ?

 

We are all going down to LA in a caravan...one Honda Pilot, Odyssey, Toyota Sienna, and Cayenne......

 

we all like our vehicles....but we all have to go up to snow country too....and the pilot owner and I like the fact that you don't need to put on snow chains while going up.... :-)

highender

glad you are doing better , pat...

 

don't get too much radiation...I had a scan done last year also....did not like the cold vault like machine.

 

Honda is having some problems with their tranny...but seems like toyota is OK with Sienna not having any major problems....

stever

" Only one thing is certain: The "type" of car you drive is no longer defined by the number of cupholders."

 

The Crossover Continuum

 

Steve, Host

li_sailor

Hmmm...when exactly was it defined by # of cupholders?

 

Crossovers...great idea. Hopefully all those folks driving Explorers, Trailblazers, Expeditions and Tahoes that only need something light-duty will see the light and buy one instead.

 

...manufacturers discovered that only 5 percent of SUVs were taken off-road...

 

I guess that's including dirt roads and parking lots ;-) 5%? LOL! 1-2% maybe, if one counts only roads that actually require an SUV.

 

...SUVs as cooler alternatives to the minivan.

 

Now we're getting warmer.

 

Don't call them "station wagons"...The phrase of the day is "sport wagon."

 

I think we should call MVs "SportsVans". That should boost sales a bit. "Actual meaning" is overrated.

 

I still Don't Like SUVs used for only light duty applications.

stever

Hey Tom, good to see you.

 

I wonder if the Subaru B9 Tribeca was an attempt to get the tri-usage idea across. Most people think of Subbies as sedans or wagons. I don't know if many people outside your area have ever heard of the NYC neighborhood.

 

Steve, Host

li_sailor

Hey, Steve, wassup.

 

It's probably one of those computer-generated names. Some NYer's haven't heard of TriBeCa, either ;-)

 

Wow, a 7 seater Subie and it'll probably replace the Outback.

 

Tri-usage. Dunno, don't see any real "SUVness" there. No haul, no tow, just some off road. Ok, a little SUV-ness. But no more than an Outback, probably less.

tidester

No haul, no tow, just some off road.

 

Since when are those requirements for owning ... er ... uh ... nevermind! Pretend I didn't say that! ;-)

 

tidester, host

li_sailor

I just had a flashback!

 

Whew. I'm ok now.

explorerx4

i was forced to sit in the 3rd row of a minivan (last one in, captain's chairs second row). it was horrible. find me a minivan that has as good a 3rd row for an adult as an explorer.

at least the van had a dvd player to take my mind off of how uncomfortable i was.

bottgers

I see many folks posting messages in the forum saying things like "I wouldn't be caught dead in a minvan." Let me let you people in on a little secret: SUV's are no cooler than minivans. Both types of vehicles are rather boxy looking, and are just plain boring to look at. For those of you spending the extra $10K to get the SUV because you think it projects a cooler image than a minivan, you're wasting your money. If you want to project a cool image, buy a Corvette. They're cool. There's nothing cool about SUV's. Minivans and SUV's are both about functionality and nothing else.

highender

no just that about the 3rd rows, but the view is great all around the SUV...some MV also have better views...

 

the Previa was a great car...but less room than a suburban, and lots of hassle in snow country....

highender

yes....some people do think MV are cooler than SUVs....

 

most people think the opposite.

 

why not get an old american station wagon ?

stever

Zaroots! (Inside Line)

 

Steve, Host

highender

seems like a car out of DEmolition man, or FREEJACK, or Total Recall...

 

nice and futuristic...

bluedevils

Well, the last time I tried an Explorer 3rd row seat, my dad was considering a new XLT 4x4. I think it was 2002 model year - essentially the same as the current units, right? The 3rd row seat in that seemed like a joke.

 

I'll take the 3rd row in our Kia Sedona anytime. Plenty of leg and hip room for 2. A fairly tight squeeze for 3, unless folks a 5'9" or shorter, and not overweight.

highender

in my old Previa minivan was good...

 

but the most room was in the suburban SUV....3 rows of seats, and a 4th row jump seat for the kids....or take out the jump seat and have room for 4 or 5 full sized luggage and lots of carryon luggage....

dae

most people think the opposite.

Most people are easily manupulated morons. (That is only half a joke.)

I got a good Bavarian AWD station wagon and a minivan. (Mmm.. 5 series comes out with AWD soon... Time to upgrade? :shades: ) You would not caught me dead in an SUV.

explorerx4

someone posted here today and i happened to see it.
i just sat in the 3rd row of my '02 explorer, and except for kneeroom being kind of tight, i fit pretty easily. two adults can fit back there. i'm about 6'1. used to be taller, but there is that age thing.

jipster

"Design is a major reason minivans are less likely to be involved in a fatal crash..."

No doubt minivans are built safer. But, I think the biggest factor(in accident rates) would be in the human element. What kind of drivers drive a minivan as opposed to a SUV???

I would say SUV drivers are "generally" not as cautious, ...minivan drivers more practical. A minivan can do everything better than a SUV...except for towing and off roading...with 90% of SUV owners never towing or off roading.

irg

What about the driver that owns both? Actually I hope soon to not be an SUV owner. My Explorer is a piece of junk, although I am probably less likely to get in an accident with it vs. my Sienna because of its lack of power - 160 hp in the Ford vs. 230 for the Sienna, lol.

But I understand your point overall. There is a "confidence" factor that can make some SUV drivers overconfident, especially in bad weather. I do feel though, I am more confident in the winter in my Explorer than in regular cars, but I've never had a problem with being overconfident. I think the worst are pickup owners. They are less likely statistically to wear seatbelts, and so when they are in an accident, they have a higher mortality rate. I would bet that minivan owners have probably the highest rate of seat belt usage, because kids (and child seats) are more likely to be in them.

marine2

I always thought you would be pretty safe in a pickup. Heavier gauge steel and a frame under the body instead of a unibody that folds like an accordion when hit. But then I find out the roofs of pickups, don't have to meet the safety requirements of cars and vans. That many people are killed when a pickup rolls over because the roof collapses. Not sure about what is required of SUV's. Sure surprised me.

ewt

"I always thought you would be pretty safe in a pickup. Heavier gauge steel and a frame under the body instead of a unibody that folds like an accordion when hit"

Folding up like an accordian is exactly what you want a vehicle to do in an impact. The force of the imapct is abosorbed by the chassis rather than being transfered to the occupants.

marine2

If they had a ladder frame that would go from the middle of the engine to the middle of the trunk and added to both ends of that a crumple zone both front and back, I would agree with you. But I have seen by driving professionally all my life, accidents where the engine was driven right into the driver's compartment and where the trunk was driven right into the back seats killing them and the hit wasn't as hard as I would have thought to do that. Years ago, bumpers took that shock. Remember when we had bumpers you could hit without damaging the car? The early bumpers had springs behind them, later they put shock absorbers. Now they just use vinyl and still call them bumpers.

li_sailor

...accidents where the engine was driven right into the driver's compartment and where the trunk was driven right into the back seats killing them and the hit wasn't as hard as I would have thought to do that.

Probably a car that was hit by an large LTV with an unyielding ladder frame.

Ewt is right. Overall, in the vast majority of collisions, you are much safer in a unibody vehicle over a ladder framed vehicle. Better energy absorption. Of course, any frame can be overwhelmed and that is bad. That's why there's an incompatibility problem between LTVs (esp large truck-based SUVs) and cars.

marine2

A few years ago, I was sitting at a light with a Firebird next to me. The car next to the firebird moved to make a left hand turn and the Firebird started to move too. He didn't realize after going a couple of feet he did not have the green and hit a Buick in front of him. The Buick had a ripped and hanging bumper. The Firebird's bumper and grill fell right off the car. I couldn't believe the grill fell off until I got a quick look at it. The wall the grill was screwed to was plastic, instead of steal. The plastic cracked around every screw hole and allowed the grill to just fall out. That couldn't have been more than a 10 mile an hour hit.

If they had used seat belts back in the 40's, 50's and 60's many more people would have lived through accidents. Those bumpers would have taken the shock.

stever

Steel parts add weight and hurt mileage (and automakers have to meet CAFE regs).

Old bumpers didn't enjoy the compression advantages of newer foam bumpers that are covered in vinyl or plastic.

Cars in the 50's and 60's were pitiful and I sure wouldn't want to be stuck in a daily commute in most of those so-called classics. Lousy driveability, worse reliability and unsafe.

Of course, our great grandkids will look back on our 2005 models and just shake their heads and wonder how we managed to get around in them.

Steve, Host

marine2

Steel parts add weight and hurt mileage (and automakers have to meet CAFE regs).

Steel does add weight. But their are some parts of a car that should be made of steel. Like that panel for the Firebird. They could make up for it by making the fenders or trunk out of plastic.

Old bumpers didn't enjoy the compression advantages of newer foam bumpers that are covered in vinyl or plastic.


Right, and they didn't need to be totaled in a 30-40 mile crash either.

Cars in the 50's and 60's were pitiful and I sure wouldn't want to be stuck in a daily commute in most of those so-called classics. Lousy driveability, worse reliability and unsafe.

They drove great. Did need a little more fixing than today's cars. Put a seat belt in them and I would stack you up against a 40 mile crash any day.

Most cars today will never live long enough to be classics. The plastic inside crumbles after 7-10 years in this heat. Most have the same body style for 5 years and it gets harder every year to tell one make from another.

You need to get in the driver's seat of a 1957 Chevy or 1955 Ford. Great cars and beautiful too.

tidester

Put a seat belt in them and I would stack you up against a 40 mile crash any day.

The car may fare better than a modern vehicle but I'm not so sure about the passengers! Fatality rates were much higher back then and it's not all attributable to seatbelt usage.

tidester, host

marine2

The car may fare better than a modern vehicle but I'm not so sure about the passengers! Fatality rates were much higher back then and it's not all attributable to seatbelt usage.


Not sure we really know that. My uncle was killed when his door came open in a crash of his 1959 Olds 98, and he was thrown out.

You even have to worry about the air bags killing you in the cars now. I tried to have the one in my wife's Honda Civic disconnected because she is so short and sits so close to the wheel. Our next one will have adjustable peddles, what ever it is.

stever

You need to get in the driver's seat of a 1957 Chevy

I learned to drive a manual in a '57 Chevy (3 on the tree). No thanks; if you're going to stick me in an old beater, give me a '69 VW Bug.

Well, in keeping with the topic at hand, make that a '69 VW Bus (I drove one of those for a couple of years too; kept cutting the corners too close and dinging the rear).

Steve, Host

marine2

My father had a 55 Ford Crown Victoria with a continental in the back. Nicest and prettiest car I have ever driven. Keeping with the topic at hand, I'd give my new Dodge minivan to have one just like it.