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  • r2s2r2s2 Posts: 93
    LOL! I loved your post about jstandefer's mileage and replies to him about same. Facts don't faze him however, and I've learned not to bother him with facts about my experiences with my MZ6. Jerry's purpose in life here and on other boards seems to be to bash Mazda; no one knows why. Well, no one has confirmed why . . .
  • Don't you have anything constructive to add to these forums other than pointing out how perfect your 6 is and anyone that has any problems is insane and Mazda-bashers? As I've pointed out many times to you, this is my 5th Mazda in a row (2 of them right now), I've sold them, I've managed a Mazda dealership inventory, I have a Mazda Motorsports banner hanging in my garage, I have Mazda hats and clothing, pens, calculators, a Miata 10th Anniversay Seiko watch, bags, stickers, models, and more than 200 Mazda brochures spanning the GLC to the 2004 6. I hosted a California Protege meet and I'm working on a Mazda information website. I have also continuously praised my Protege5 (which has been perfect) and was one of the most outspoken Mazda supporters in the various Protege boards. When non-Mazda owners jump in to bash Mazda, I am usually the first to step up and defend Mazda.

    Yes, I have bashed my Mazda6 continuously. Yes, I have bashed the AutoAlliance plant. And yes, I haved bashed Mazda's marketing. Who wouldn't? If anyone had my 6, they would probably be a lot more drastic than I have been, and there are posters out there that are much worse than I am and mounting much more of a campaign to let everyone know (and yet, you don't attack them). The AutoAlliance plant and Mazda's marketing are two weak points that Mazda needs improvement on, and to praise them would just give them the idea that they are doing just fine, and that would hurt them and us in the long run.

    In the meantime, I will continue to post about problems I have in my 6 and how they were resolved. I will also continue to post TSBs, recalls, problem solutions, advice, and Mazda6 news.
  • I can finally write what I came in here to post:

    The mileage on my Mazda6 has drastically improved! I just completed the first full tank of gas since they replaced the faulty alternator. The results? 395 miles from 15.8 gallons. That's 25 MPG combined driving with lots of traffic. It's an additional 75-90 miles out of the tank compared to what I was getting with the bad alternator. This is more along the lines of what I was expecting, and hopefully it will continue. Let's see what happens when they replace the noisy power steering pump (scraping sound) and fix the wobbling crankshaft pulley (which probably caused the problems with the alternator and power steering pump).

    Like I said, the low mileage I was getting was probably due to problems.
  • Posted by moose54:
     Could you inform us what the number and title is for that technical service bulletin? Did it take care of the problem? Thanks for the info."

    Well, I found out that it is not a TSB. However, here is the text:

    Dealer Text 1. The front brakes make a grinding (metal to metal) noise when the brakes are applied. 2. The outboard side of the front brake rotor has a 1mm deep groove. The groove is located 20mm from the top of the rotor. The grinding noise and groove may be caused by the brake attachment hardware moving/shifting out of position. a. Inspect rotor and machine if necessary. b. Replace the pad attachment hardware P/N - GJYE-33-29ZB
  • Jerry, I'm curious what is your beef with AutoAlliance? Could it be that Americans are building quality cars @ that plant? The Mazda 6 is a gr8 engineered machine. Until now I've sat back and watched your endless, compulsive postings.
  • WHOA........I think J has every right to do everything he is doing after all he has been through. He has in the past been a staunch supporter of Mazda and their products. I do agree with him to a certain degree that the AAI plant up till this point has been the source of some of the issues in the 6. Let's face it. Some of the problems are only happening at that plant and not to the Atenza or other 6's built in Japan. Can Americans build quality cars? Of course, dare I say Camry or Legacy.........Can they build quality and reliability at American car company plants? That I feel the jury is still out on. Ford, GM and Chrysler plants here have not put out anything resembling true quality in years. Is it the workers, maybe, I have heard horror stories first handed about some of the things workers do to piss off management if they don't get their latest raise or upgraded benefits package. Our work force is far different than that in the rest of the world where pride in work means something and if you don't do a quality job you can't hide behind the Union, you get fired. On the other hand to a great extent the car company is responsible for the quality no matter where it is built. But what we have here is the identically engineered car being built at two different locations with two different quality levels. So it is easy to say that either there is something wrong with the plant or with the workers.
    As for the is the best car I have ever driven, and I believe J has stated the same. He has a lemon and it is causing him great concern for the rest of us or he wouldn't keep updating us with fixes,TSB's and recalls, so our cars do not serve the same fate.
    In addition all those who think he is not entitled to his opinion are the very same fascist, always offended people that are marking the end to this country. Get over it he is not bashing you he is just stating his OPINION of the CAR and of MAZDA.
  • barrysobarryso Posts: 66
    It hurts to hear about J's lemon since the rest of us have been having pretty good experiences with our M6's.

    But having been bit by a lemon years back I can certaintly understand his pain. You go out and spend a lot of money on a car you've researched the hell out of and then you end up heartbroken.

    His posts do bring the tone of the board down a bit but he is posting the truth. He got a lemon and is sharing the experience with us. Who knows what part of J's experiences we may find useful as our M6's get older?

    My lemon was a Japanese built Honda Accord. The "perfect" car couldn't stay out of the shop. It happens to all car makers, unfortunately.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "Is it the workers, maybe, I have heard horror stories first handed about some of the things workers do to piss off management if they don't get their latest raise or upgraded benefits package."

    This is why I think my Protege was made so well. The workers in Japan that made my car were affraid for their jobs, considering Mazda had been reducing headcount and their sales had been slipping for a while.

    As far as Jerry is concerned, I hope he keeps up the posts. I remember when I first came to Edmunds about 3 years ago and Jerry was one of the regulars in the Protege room where I posted. It's understandable for a Flat Rock employee to get defensive about things said about that plant, but like someone already said, that plant seems to be having more issues than other Mazda plants.

    As far as I know, AAI is the only union plant making a Japanese designed vehichle.
  • moose54moose54 Posts: 20
    If the consumer does not demand a more quality product, whatever the item, the consumer will get a less reliable product. Keep up the good work Jerry, it is much appreciated. The information you provide will likely keep the dealership's service department honest.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    unfortunate. Same thing happened to us 12 years ago with my Mom's Pontiac Grand AM. It was lemon it took her 6-7 years to get rid of the thing. Does that mean every GM or Mazda car I shouldn't buy because somebody had a bad experience with one? No.

    As far as the Flat Rock is concerned I agree the rust thing should have never happened. I don't think the Flat Rock plant is that bad. I have had a Mazda car built out of the Flat Rock Plant and it was good. Every manufacturer builds lemons and unfortunately J got it. I feel for him because I know what my Mom went through with her lemon and I agree its a horrible experience.

    J brought up Mazda marketing it has gotten better with the latest RX-8 and 3 commercial's.

    As far as The American's building a reliable car the Altima, Camry, and Accord are mostly built in the US so I guess American's can build a reliable car. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan plants are non-union though but in the long run I don't think that means anything.

    Finally, I don't think the 6 is less or more reliable than a Camry or Accord. The Hiroshima plant is just very good. I would put that plants quality next to Lexus's plant in terms of churning out ultra-reliable vehicles on a consistent basis.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    I think what we are seeing is the "all or nothing" mentality. You either love Mazda (and Mazda cars) or not, right? Wrong. Jerry is obviously a strong Mazda fan, but he got a lemon so he is justifiably pissed. I am too a strong Mazda fan, but I also feel free to bash them when they do something stupid, like their goofy option package combos or the rust on the doors. This should make sense to everyone except maybe a few Democrats that I know. ;)
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    I bash Mazda too whenever they do something stupid too.

    BTW, can somebody post me pictures of what the 6 looks like without the sport package and with the sport package so I can compare side by side how they look. That would be appreciated thanks.
  • aromasaromas Posts: 314
    Although the 6 is a great looking and great feeling car and I love driving it every day. I think it would be safe to say it has not proved reliable thus far. The simply incredible variety of problems a small sampling of owners on this board have along with the soon to be 3rd recall(and counting) seems to prove the point that a 1st year model and N.A. built is a recipe for disaster.

    I know there are several owners out there who haven't had any problems and I'm envious. This car has been out for just over a year and we could fill a page of what has gone wrong with the car. I personally have 5 different problems(not including recalls)that need fixing and most posters here have had to make several trips to the dealer in their 1st year. I wish the rust was my only problem. I can't imagine what will be coming as I pile on the miles. I've only had it 10 months with 10K miles! I don't consider it a lemon because any problems I've had except one have been echoed here as well. Unfortunately I'm fairly confident that a good percentage of owners here will experience the same difficulties as time goes on

    If had been any other car I would of dumped it a long time ago. Unfortunately it's too fun compared to what else is out there. People jump all over the new Accord for it's problems but I think have blinders on with this car which has just as many if not more. I'm not a Mazda basher I'm simply facing facts. The 6 in terms of reliability thus far is below average at best. Great drive but it's gonna get expensive once that warrenty runs out. Hopefully the 3rd and 4th year models improve drastically.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    "The 6 in terms of reliability thus far is below average at best."

    That's based on your car in particular. Overall I suspect it will be average or better.
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    I recall that someone with access to the online Consumer Reports data said the current data on the 6's reliability was outstanding - better than the Accord and Camry. I'm sure this is no consolation if you have a problematic 6 though.

    - Mark
  • Folks, you can't make any judgments based upon what you read on a message board. Message boards such as this are not a random sampling of the population or Mazda6 owners. (I come from a science background and have even seen professionals draw unwarranted conclusions based upon biased samples.) Since we don't know why some people choose to seek out, read, and then actually post to an Internet forum such as this, we can't base any conclusions upon the very limited data these self-selected people offer.

    One reasonable hypothesis about what draws people to such a forum is they are seeking opinions and feedback about a specific issue affecting their car. People who are happy with their cars are out driving them or otherwise occupied. People who are unhappy with their cars are seeking consolation and advice. So it is likely that you would see more negative comments from owners who've had problems with their cars than from those who haven't.

    What little empirical reliability data we have (e.g., Consumer Reports) actually suggests that this is a reliable car. That doesn't discount the experiences some people have had with their particular car, but it does suggest more strongly than these individual data points do, in general, this car is reliable.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    me I don't think the 6 is a bad car. You take a shot whenever you buy a car in its first year. Thats why you always be aware of buying first year to wait till the recalls get straightened out.

    As far as cars made in NA every other foreign car is made in NA.

    You think other people on the other boards haven't had problems with their cars? If every car was problem free we wouldn't even have these boards.

    As far as filling a page have you seen the problems and solution board for other cars? There are alot of cars listed there with alot of owners having problems with their car. The 6 isn't the only car to have problems.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    "As far as cars made in NA every other foreign car is made in NA."

    There are a few cars that are only made in Japan, for example the Mazda3.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    First-year problems and reliability are not necessarily related, though the first can be an indicator of the second.

    It appears that the first-year problems of the Mazda6 are mostly minor. With the exception of a few individual cars, the door rust problem seems to be fixed, but only time will tell if it's going to be a long-term problem. The gas tank problem seems to be minor and there an easy fix for it. I haven't heard anything regarding a fix for the turn signal problem but it could be something as simple as the flasher unit. What about the suspension noises?
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    The Mitsubishi Lancer, Mitsubishi Montero, Acura TSx, Acura RSX, Acura RL, the whole Lexus line-up with the exception of the RX 330, the whole Infinti Line-up, Mazda 3, Mazda RX-8, Mazda Miata and Mazda MPV. I think the Honda S2k is made in Japan. A small percentage of Accord and Camry's are made in Japan but not many.

    Sorry to get off topic. Now we will get back on topic.

    As as the rust being a long term problem I think the Flat Rock Plant understands they have to fix that problem. I hope they have for the sake of 04 Mazda 6 owners they have fixed it already.
  • jbhogenjbhogen Posts: 21
    Well traveled ground, Accord, Camry, Infinitis etc. etc., etc. made here. Also, Buicks and Cadillacs, check out JD Power if you don't think they are well built.

    First model year cars have problems, period. If you didn't know that before you bought, then you know now.

    Anybody have conclusive evidence that stain=rust? Not Joe Blow's car is rusty, but real quantitative evidence? Its been several months folks, and all I've heard thus far is speculation.
  • newcar31newcar31 Posts: 3,711
    "Anybody have conclusive evidence that stain=rust? Not Joe Blow's car is rusty, but real quantitative evidence? Its been several months folks, and all I've heard thus far is speculation."

    Some dealerships and body shops are calling it rust. Apparantly, it costs a couple grand to get it scientifically tested.
  • I love my MZ6. It has been rock solid with the exception of the Rust/Stain issue. The spots have not re appeared since the TSB repair. I know several people who love their MZ6's.

    People need to keep forums like this in perspective. If you look closely, it's always the same 25-30 people who post over and over and over.

    I'm not finding fault with that, but one should always take note of such realities.

    Mark. : )
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    Seems like the number of posts on the rust problem has dropped off. Should we assume that means it's fixed on the 04 models?
  • My experience: I have an '03 6s auto with 14K miles. No problems. That's zero, zip, nada. How boring. I don't know why I bother to post this, except an earlier poster's comment about gripes being over-represented on this board.
  • '036s manual with 6,000 miles. Stain/rust in right rear door sill. No other problems, not even a rattle.

  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    I think you've hit on an important point - people with no problems don't bother to post, and they tend not to seek out these boards. Also, I believe that the higher price or higher the perceived quality of the brand is, the less likely people are to be seen here. Who's going to admit they paid $40K for a Lexus and they have problems with it?

    This why even the J.D. Powers and Consumer Reports information is flawed.
  • I have owned my v6 M6s with full sport pkg. since last March. Mine was one of the first Sepang Green cars to hit Atlanta. So far 13,500 trouble-free miles. Even though my car is in the build-cycle of the rust issue, I have seen no sign of it anywhere, and believe me, after all these posts, I have looked. Still absolutely love this car. Still get thumbs up and looks after almost a year of driving this car all over Atlanta.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    The lurkers are coming out ...
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    Consume Reports reccomends every Mazda besides the B-Cab and Trbute which are in reality rebadged Ford's. I'm suprised a Mazda fan would say CR is flawed.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    Didn't I read that CR has now listed the Tribute as a best buy for 2004?
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    I didn't say that Consumer Reports and JD Powers info is invalid, I said it's flawed. This is because the owners reporting the info to CR and JD Powers are not a random sample, and they're not objective. It's still good info (and it's all we've got), but it's flawed.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "It's still good info (and it's all we've got), but it's flawed."

    I believe they are flawed as well and I felt that way for years. Although I have no background to prove it, JD Powers cannot prove and will not prove they are accurate (which by definition they can't anyway since it is a poll), CR at least divulges some information on their responses. I'm also sure they had a PhD statistician design, derive and normalize this information. But as they say garbage in and garbage out.

    I guess in the same way you can poll 5 random people and then predict the next president of the United States based on this random sample. :)
  • aromasaromas Posts: 314
    I'm glad most owners here are reporting trouble free cars. Guess I'm one of the unlucky few. Just wanted to liven up the discussion a little bit as well as all this talk about mileage was boring the hell outta me. If you worry that much about mileage than you should be driving a Camry as you are not having as much fun with this car as you should be.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    or a Prius
  • r2s2r2s2 Posts: 93
    I took delivery on my (so far rust- and trouble-free) Redfire 6s MT in mid-July and I love it. But if I could have gotten my hands on the equivalent Sepang I would have had it instead. It's a very classy color. I've only seen one on the road and I nearly wrecked my car looking at it!
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    I have heard too many horror stories about them especially the 01 models with the starting and stalling problem. CR reccomends the Tribute now?
  • I know what you mean about the color. I had only seen it on a non-sport pkg M6 prior to mine, and I didn't particularly like it. But of all the colors then available, I thought it might look the best. When the car came in and I saw it decked out in the sport pkg, I knew I had made the right choice. People still comment on the color and how nice the car looks.
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  • but now there's another I see all the time around here. So much for exclusivity!

  • jbhogenjbhogen Posts: 21
    Got pounded by my "friends" for my 99 Pro ES as it got widely adopted by rental car agencies. Thought I was free and clear for a while with the 6s, but yesterday an identical steel grey metallic parked next to me at work (Hertz neverlost stuck to the dash). Oh well, good thing I like driving mine so much, a little ribbing won't hurt (much). ;)
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    "This is because the owners reporting the info to CR and JD Powers are not a random sample, and they're not objective. It's still good info (and it's all we've got), but it's flawed."

    I couldn't agree more!

    CR's "owners" are their subscribers. Think about who reads their magazine and the picture becomes more clear. Their samples for each vehicle are about as un-random as you can get!

    A breakdown of their subscriber demographics and/or a list of how many people submitted their form for each vehicle would go a long way in helping us determine how accurate the data is.

    Yes the Escape and Tribute got pounded by J.D. and CR when they were introduced, and yes they do recommend them now. That being said, it has become more obvious that they originally based their ratings on the early recalls and had absolutely no clue as to what was going on.

    CR and J.D. have no idea how many problems per vehicle exist. Only the manufacturers have that information and they aren't going to release it any time soon. Imagine what would happen to Honda and Toyota if that information was made public! ;)
  • ramped1ramped1 Posts: 159
    While the CR and JD Powers surveys do have flaws, I think the reason that I pay attention to their information is that it generally backs up anecdotal evidence I have read on most makes.

    Maybe it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, but most brands rated very reliable by CR are, in fact, very reliable. Its report of the 6, for example, seems to be very accurate except for the stain issue which did not become known until after it published its report.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    "Maybe it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, but most brands rated very reliable by CR are, in fact, very reliable."

    Prove it! ;)

    It matters more to me that I like the vehicle before I buy it. No matter what any mag says about a vehicle's reliability you still run the risk of getting a lemon (I have a crappy Civic which was rated very highly by CR and J.D. in 1996) so you might as well pick what you want rather than what they say you want.

    "Its report of the 6, for example, seems to be very accurate except for the stain issue which did not become known until after it published its report."

    SEEMS to be?

    I would think that most Mazda6 owners, or maybe even the majority of Mazda owners, don't subscribe to a non-enthusiast mag such as CR thus eliminating them from the "random sample". Who then are they getting their info from? Average Joe's who don't know a rust stain from their little finger? Who bought a Mazda6i AT because it was a "great deal" at the time and CR said it was OK to do so?

    I'm not saying the 6 is a heap. I think it's a great car and I wish all of you the best of luck with it. But the fact is CR leaves too much information out of the equation for us to gain a proper perspective. Sure their little circles are clean and easy to read, but you sometimes have to look past the glitter and figure out what they are really telling you. Which is not as much as you think.

    As was mentioned before, CR, J.D. IC, etc. do serve a purpose. I agree with that and that we have nothing better to go by at this time. However, they prove nothing and using their ratings to say "My car is better than yours" (not that any of you did) is just plain wrong.

    Many owners on this thread think CR's Mazda6 rating is right on! But there are others that wish CR would just make like a tree...
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Posts: 854
    "Got pounded by my "friends" for my 99 Pro ES as it got widely adopted by rental car agencies..."

    Tell them to get a life.
  • ever kissed a girl? Criticizing you because your car happens to also be available in a local rental fleet?

    I would also advise you to tell them to get a life, but they probably woudn't know where to start!
  • ramped1ramped1 Posts: 159
    Nothing to prove. As I said, anecdotal stories are just information people relate to one another about their experiences. When dozens of Whatevermobile owners tell me their cars are great, that is useful information. When several others tell me that their Watchamacallits are heaps, that gives me pause before I look at that model.

    What makes you think M6 owners or Mazda owners in general don't read CR? Mazda does seek to fill niches, but it is by and large a traditional auto company selling traditional vehicles. Many of its customers probably fit that profile. Rich would know more about that.

    CR presents its information and tells you how it was compiled. Use or ignore that information as you see fit.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    "CR presents its information and tells you how it was compiled. Use or ignore that information as you see fit."

    That's what I do. ;)

    "What makes you think M6 owners or Mazda owners in general don't read CR?"

    Just from the "sample" I see on these boards. Most seem to be enthusiasts (Meaning they care how fun the vehicle is to drive) to some extent.

    However, I personally only know two people who drive Mazda's, both Protege's, right now and neither of them are enthusiasts. Both are females from different age groups who wanted economical "cute" cars. That's what they got.

    I actually turned the one away from an '03 Civic and pushed here towards the Protege' when she asked my opinion (I'm the local car guy/idiot I guess you could say). She consulted with CR and decided I was right. It really is a better car. :)

    Those are the two exceptions though. My cousin's husband bought a Miata back in the early ninieties because he loves to drive and it was the best thing going at the time.

    A lot of Tribute owners on Escape/Tribute boards bought their vehicles because the Tribute does have a slightly sportier ride (I test drove one and agree) than the Escape. They needed an SUV and the sportier the better.

    Anyway, I consider myself an enthusiast to an extent as well, and I KNOW I wouldn't base my decision on what a magazine says let alone subscribe to one that glorifies appliances on wheels one day and tests light bulb longevity or carpet cleaners the next. There are certain rules we must follow.

    I just don't see Mazda owners, who tend to be enthusiasts, subscribing to CR. I see them as MT or C&D readers instead.

    Seriously though. Look at what is talked about around here and compare it to the "my car is great and it gets great gas mileage, and it has low emissions, and it has..." drone over on the Camcord threads. Who cares! How does it take a hairpin turn at 60 mph?! :)
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    CR sends out questionnaries to their subcriber base and gets about 675K back. From this they report the number of problems people have with their cars. That's all there is to it. No secret or hidden agendas, no biases.

    Yes, you can argue that their sample isn't big enough, or that somehow their sample gets skewed and is not representative of the population of car owners as a whole. But the point you're missing is that any sampling error is occuring across all makes and models and all CR does is compare rates between models. For there to be consistent bias, say against the M6, then you'd have to argue that somehow M6 owners are reporting problems more frequently than other owners.

    It's not a perfect sample and the absolute numbers probably aren't that good. But used as a relative tool to compare reliability between brands, it's darn good data and the only thing we've got. And their data seems to back up the anecotal data we get from boards like this - the M6 has had some problems, but there is no groundswell of issues like you see with cars like the Grand Cherokee.

    - Mark
  • 1wiseguy1wiseguy Posts: 120
    I agree- mileage discussions were boring me as well.

    My wife gave me a hard time when I bought my 6 V6, telling me that I didn't "need" a 6 cyl car and that a 4 would do just fine.

    Just yesterday she was saying how much she liked the car, how fast it heats up compared to her Honda, etc. (And when it's 25 below zero that matters!) When I asked her if she still felt the same way about 6 cyl cars she said she finally understood what I was talking about.
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