When I purchased my new Protege in 2001, I did alot of research before I was ready to buy and knew the price I wanted to pay when I visited the dealer. I also had an incredibly positive experience and would recommend my dealer to anyone and we have maintained a great relationship 2 years later. That being said, I paid almost 3k below their initial asking price. The dealer will not make a deal unless they are making some money....I was not rude or demanding and my salesperson actually told me he enjoys educated buyers that have done their research - he said they were not making much on my sale but would make it up on someone else ready to pay sticker. I am much more likely to pay Nordstrom a higher price because the difference in shopping around is minimal - a new car is a major purchase and the difference in a few grand or a few hundred dollars IS SIGNIFICANT!! You are very happy with your purchase and that is the main thing - if the customer is happy, then super!! I will return to buy a new 6 in the future, and they will be happy to see me I am sure. Good luck with yours - I am jealous!!
Wonderwoman - dealers (ALL dealers) are out to make as much money as they can from each and every person who walks through the door - handsome people, ugly people, men, women, all races. They will treat some differently than others depending on what they think they can get away with. Some dealers no doubt are worse than others, but they are ALL out to maximize their profits. I would guess that if you ask dealers: "Are you giving any discount on this car?", 9 out of ten will look you squarely in the eyes and very nicely say: "Nope, not with a car as fine as this". I wish you the best with your new car, but my perception and experience with the marketplace is a lot more critical than yours.
WW19, its great you are happy with your purchase. But in all fairness, dealers love folks like you. This purchase was a very emotional experience for you. See below
Bottom line-I don't care how much I paid--I LOVE this car and am soooo excited! I hope I'm able to drive by x-mas!!!
For some, many ladies, car buying is a fun, spirit charging experience where price is incidental, a minor part of the deal.
For some guys, the deal is the deal. Its part of the challenge, the conquest. After the make and model has been targeted, the price is paramount. They do not want to hear their friends say - YOU PAID WHAT!!!???
So forgive the guys here, for many, its all about the art of the deal.
Dealerships are held accountable for their actions, and are held up to exceedingly high standards today that make it impossible to treat anyone less than perfect.
Um, in LA and San Diego that's just plain not true. Dealerships generally treat people like dirt and will rob them blind without a second thought.
Would you like to know why they laugh at people? They talk behind your back when you sneer, snap & walk into a show room and treat everyone terribly. They shake their head and wonder why that person is such a mean spirited, scared little man.
Oh my, no. They laugh that they can send a salesperson out who doesn't know a lick about the product, lies about what it can or can't do/have and lies over and over to the smiling face waiting to buy the car. The sales process is a joke and it's stacked in favor of the seller when faced with ignorant buyers (most people).
You DON'T have to be rude to get what you want! Don't you get it?!
That's true. I prefer starting all sweet and nice and letting the salesperson reveal whether or not he's worth my respect. The bottomline: know what the product costs the dealer and get a price you feel is fair. In my opinion, no matter what the car is, anything $300 over invoice is too much profit for a stealership. They provide nothing and are entitled to as little cash as possible.
I don't care if they made money on me. Why shouldn't they? What is so terrible about someone making money? It's the same as Marshall Fields, Target, Nordstrom, etc.
Totally different products. You can't compare clothing sales to auto sales. One, unfortunately in this country, doesn't allow for the barter system. Thankfully with autosales you can still exercise control. The only way to get that control with clothing is to wait for sales, abuse coupons, use other means to get the lowest price. I much prefer the eastern view that people can haggle over prices on everything.
Should sales people merely exist for your own personal torture and gain?
I'd prefer if they didn't exist at all, as they're useless. Dealerships exist to move product. What happens with the salesperson is not my concern.
Should they give their cars away and then be treated like &*%@ ???????
They should sell their cars for as much as they can get. It's a free market. Let the Mazda dealers prey on the impetuous buyers - suck the life out of them. In three to four months the 6, like all mazda products, will be available at or below invoice for buyers willing to haggle. Even then some people will pay sticker. Let'em.
A dealership is more likely to want to give a discount, albeit a small one, to someone who treats them with dignity and respect, rather than what I'm guessing you treat someone like.
A dealership might throw in a negligible extra like wheel locks or floormats or give you a pitiful $500 discount so that you'll scamper out and tell people what a great deal you got but you know, any buyer with a little effort can get that and probably more. Spend enough time pushing and you'll get all sorts of extras, money off and maybe the salesman's first born.
Try it next time you purchase a vehicle. It works.
email works great for most purchases as you can avoid salespeople (useless leeches) and get the dealership's bottomline price (normally a bit over invoice). You can easily e-mail back a demand and make it a take it or leave it proposition. Plus you can get offers from all over town without ever visiting some dingy, rat-infested stealership.
If you like to knock it out, visit the dealership, find the car and then tell junior to go get the boss because you want to get the deal done fast. Offer invoice, don't use the 4 square and build from there. As soon as they don't budge, get up and walk. If they follow, you've got them. If not, try again somewhere else. It's ALWAYS a buyers market in the car business. and in 2002, definitely the power is in our hands.
I appreciate all of your points of view. I think that some of you may take this more seriously than it is intended to be. Buying a vehicle is fun; it really is!
I'm sorry if you are looking at this "more critically than me", but how much time do you think you are wasting, when you could be driving away in your new Mazda6?!
Yes, of course people are there to maximize their profits! Is that any reason to treat them like hell?
By the way, a dealer WILL make the deal if they are not making any money. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Where do you think this money is coming from? Take away the profit, the hold back, everything--where are they finding the profit? From the profit fairy!?
Don't you understand that unless you are selling BMW's or Lexus's, the profit margin is SMALL!
Sir, you need to stop hiding behind your computer and live a little.
"I'd prefer if they didn't exist at all, as they're useless. Dealerships exist to move product. What happens with the salesperson is not my concern"...
Never in my life have I heard such a disgusting remark about a human being.
You are the mean spirited, scared little man I was refering to.
I'm sorry you're taking this so seriously. Give yourself a break; not everything is about you.
I appreciate all of your points of view. I think that some of you may take this more seriously than it is intended to be. Buying a vehicle is fun; it really is!
It's a blast! I love to haggle, toss it around and make sellers squirm. As someone else pointed out, for many of us it's the deal that's the fun part. I help all my friends and family buy cars because they know I will not settle for a bad price (MSRP) and that I dearly love automobiles and car buying. someone calls me and says she wants to get a car this weekend, I'm all over that like Shaq on a rebound.
I'm sorry if you are looking at this "more critically than me", but how much time do you think you are wasting, when you could be driving away in your new Mazda6?!
95% of the population, regardless of what they think, have nothing but time (how much do they waste watching the idiot box in the living room weekly? 30-40 hours?!). most people will sacrifice 5-6 hours of time car shopping to save hundreds/thousands of dollars.
Yes, of course people are there to maximize their profits! Is that any reason to treat them like hell?
No. But is there any reason to hand away money? No. They're out to make money, we're out to save it. Eventually we come to an agreement either on price or that we'll never agree. Either way neither party will feel cheated.
By the way, a dealer WILL make the deal if they are not making any money. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Give me an example. Don't forget holdback and dealer-to-cash money and backend points on financing. I'll gladly sell you a car for 19k that invoices for 20k if I'm doing your financing and I get you a 9 or 10% rate (of which I get 4-6 points). I make the money either way.
Where do you think this money is coming from? Take away the profit, the hold back, everything--where are they finding the profit? From the profit fairy!?
The most important part of car buying and dealer profit: not my problem. If the dealer "only" makes $500 on the deal with holdback, then they're doing just fine. It's in service where all dealerships make the bulk of their profits. Also, just because you got a deal, that doesn't mean idiots don't walk in off the street and pay MSRP plus "market mark-up" and get the sealer wax and use dealer financing with back end points. You can sell 3 cars near invoice and 1 for over MSRP and you're doing well.
Don't you understand that unless you are selling BMW's or Lexus's, the profit margin is SMALL!
LOL. A $26,300 Mazda6 comes with an invoice of $23,800. That's $2500 right there. Add in the holdback (lets say only 1%) and we're at $2750 profit before warranty work and repairs. That's small? Nearly 3k profit on a car that won't even sit on the lot for a day?! Profit margins on SUVs are even more sickening.
"Plus you can get offers from all over town without ever visiting some dingy, rat-infested stealership." LOL!!!!
"Spend enough time pushing and you'll get all sorts of extras, money off and maybe the salesman's first born. "
"That's true. I prefer starting all sweet and nice and letting the salesperson reveal whether or not he's worth my respect." Excellent! usually takes minutes.
And finally - "It's ALWAYS a buyers market in the car business. and in 2002, definitely the power is in our hands."
Never in my life have I heard such a disgusting remark about a human being.
That human being chose to go into sales. do not feel sorry for him as he made that decision with dollar signs in his eyes. Those who can sell thrive in that market. Sales is one of the few professions you can hit without any education and become a millionaire.
Neither I nor the dealership have any vested interest in the salesperson's life. If he wanted a safe job he could have gone into accounting.
You are the mean spirited, scared little man I was refering to.
Watch the ad hominem style of responses. That's not cool. I haven't attacked you, so extend to me the same respect.
Consider trying out Menlo Mazda. I'm in Sunnyvale and I visited Sunnvyale Mazda, Oak Tree, and then Menlo. My wife and I bought a P5 from Menlo because they were the most honest and pressured us the least. We dealt with Andy. I'm going back there to buy my 6s. Goes to show that customer service IS effective for the retailer.
Thanks. I'll be sure and check them out when I have a spare afternoon. What was your experience like at Sunnyvale Mazda? More cluelessness? They are just down the road from where I work...
I have to agree with you. When I went to get my 02 Jetta (Nov. 01), the salesman wrote up the sale at MSRP. I laughed in his face. I told him $500 over, he said no. I said, "bye", and got up from the desk. I was like, "there are internet dealers out there who will sell me this SAME car at invoice, and I was being nice and allowing you some profit". He wrote the deal for $500 over and that was that.
As far as salesman, I have to agree again. I work for a company that markets PR software. I can't tell you how many complaints I have gotten from customers about our product, because it doesn't perform one particular functionality. Well, turns out, the product is not suppose to perform that function. "But the SALESMAN told me it would", the client usually says. Most salesman will sell their mother for a sale.
I believe that whoever said "A dealership is more likely to want to give a discount, albeit a small one, to someone who treats them with dignity and respect, rather than what I'm guessing you treat someone like" and "By the way, a dealer WILL make the deal if they are not making any money . . . Don't you understand that unless you are selling BMW's or Lexus's, the profit margin is SMALL!" is misinformed.
As I understand it, most dealers finance their own inventory and make monthly payments on it, just like consumers. If they sell a car as soon as they get it from the manufacturer, their actual cash investment in the car might be very small - perhaps only one month's loan payment. If they sell that car right away for only a few hundred dollars over invoice, they might be making 100% on their actual cash investment. If they can get retail price for the car, their actual profit margin might be 1000%. In any case, don't measure the profit margin from the invoice price - measure it from the dealer's actual cash investment in the car, which might be only a fraction of the invoice price. Add in buyer financing, add-ons, etc., and you're talking about a lot of potential profit.
This is why dealers can make money selling a lot of cars at or below invoice, even in the absence of holdbacks and incentives. It's also why they adore people who aren't tough negotiators.
I'm simplifying the process, but this is basically how it works, as I understand it. Do not buy a salesperson's sob story that they are not making any money by giving you a big discount, and do not think that you'll get a better deal just by being "nice". You can be nice and still be a tough negotiator.
I've never treated a salesperson rudely who did not treat me rudely first (unfortunately, too many have). But tough negotiating is not rude.
Of course, it's entirely your right to buy a car as soon as it comes out and avoid negotiating in order to have a "fun" experience. Just don't think that the salesperson has done you any favors by giving you a small discount.
As for whether dealerships have changed since the 70's, I fear not. I generally encounter the same problems now as I did then. Of course, some dealers and salespeople are better than others.
Personal attacks are neither necessary nor acceptable. We can certainly engage in a healthy debate of opinions without descending into a mud slinging fest.
Let's take a deep breath, a step back and calm down, okay?
We don't have to agree with each other all the time -- what a boring world THAT would be ;-) -- but we do need to treat each other with respect.
Would you mind clarifying if the Mazda 6 you tested achieved a 0-60 time of eight seconds or 7.3 seconds? This comment in the specification report is causing a lot of confusion: "After noticing that the 6's engine is a bit soft at low rpm, we tried brake-torquing the engine to 2,000 and instantly shaved almost seven-tenths off the zero-to-60 time."
It is my understanding that Edmunds publishes the best times, and since it is stated in the review as eight seconds, I think that is with brake-torquing. Again, please clarify. Thanks.
You are correct in assuming we publish the best times on the specification sheet. The 0-to-60 time of eight seconds was achieved after brake-torquing the engine to 2,000 rpm. Before trying that technique the car was taking closer to nine seconds to reach 60 mph. Sorry for the confusion. — Ed.
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So, it's official, the 6i MT will slaughter a 6s AT from 0-60. The best time I've seen for a 6i MT is 7.8s (can't remember source, but it was European), and just stomping the accelerator on the 6s AT will take 8.7 seconds to get to 60.
Auto tranny's suck. If I may, I'd like to express how disappointed I am with the general public for driving so many automatics. Most dealers around me don't have a single manual tranny in stock. Yet, if I could get one, I'd be please to know that my car would not only be faster off a stoplight, but it'd get 6 miles-per-gallon farther on the highway.
I just got an e-mail response from a dealership (internet division) saying they are selling for list price or higher in our area. Another nearby dealer already said they'd come down off of list to a "fair value", which seemed to be $600 over invoice in the context of our talks. I asked for a MT, and they quoted me an AT. Ugh. Like talking to a wall. I thought internet sales were supposed to be headache free?
It funny. The target audience for European buyers is the stick crowd. Why? economy, better performance, less headaches over the long haul. Just about all the cars over there are MTs. Even the Mercedes. Here - its the cell phone talking, lazy AT drivers the makers cater to. Gas is cheaper, people pay for convenience. To each his/her own. Hopefully a few MT 6i's will come along to the dealers.
Paying MSRP for a 6 is ludicrous when they are selling Accords for invoice and selling Camrys at invoice with 0.0% financing even if it's for a short term. There might be a shortage on dealer's lots right now but in a couple of months they will have all configurations of the 6 hanging around. THAT is when I will buy. I feel sorry for people who bought the SI at MSRP or MSRP + only to have prices drop to below invoice a mere 4 months later.
You don't have to be rude to a dealer to get a good deal and if you do have to play hardball you should try another dealer. There are too many good cars in the 6's class for them to not bend on price. I go into the dealer knowing exactly what I want to pay and I tell them. Either they will do the deal or not. If not, I keep my current car until they will or if they wait long enough something better will come out anyways or they may even have special interest rate offers.
If we buy a 6 at invoice w/o 0.0% interest it will already be a sacrifice because we know that as a subsidiary of Ford eventually they will have 0.0%. This is the only sacrifice we are willing to make and we refuse to pay more than a few hundred over invoice.
BTW: Does anyone know who qualifies for the Mazda S-X plan?
the Dec 02 issue. They got 6.8 secs 0-60 time for the Mazda6s w/MT. I'm pretty sure they dropped the clutch though at a fairly high rpm rev launch to get this figure. Just wanted to share that figure with you all.
Mazda spent about $20,000 to design a test drive route at our store in Minnetonka, MN. They sent designers, traineers and engineers to figure it all out.
It takes about 25 minutes. It includes 5 on/off ramps, plenty of hiway and city, tight curves on back roads and even the much needed minnesota potholes. We are confident that you'll know exactly what to expect from any Mazda you drive here. You shouldn't be surprised to hear they ended up on some of the roads we already love. That drive is the best part of my day. Sometimes I even zip my P5 over there before work to push the limits of my tires. If you think the 6 looks good on paper...you gotta try it on the road!
Are you planning on buying the Mazda6? I mean, seriously? I thought that you sincerely believed that the Ford brand and its subsidiaries, and especially the Ford assembly plants, are the worst things that could ever happen to the human kind. I'm sorry for misunderstanding, but this is the impression I got from your posts.
By the way... how many people do you know who are eager to admit that they paid MSRP for any car.
I pay what I think something is worth... to me. I wouldn't buy a Neon for a dollar and I would pay more than MSRP for the Odessey (if I were silly enough to want one over the MPV).
I'll pay full price on the newest CD I want and Half price on the clothes I am browsing through.
Do you have any idea what the mark up is on furiture or sports equipment? 3-5% over cost is VERY small by comparison.
You would cry if you knew what you paid, over cost, for all the clothes you bought in the last 10 years.
It's called S-plan with Mazda. It will be hard to find a dealer willing to accept that pricing right now. You'll have to wait until the dealers get more inventory on their lots.
My car was totalled about a week ago and since we had the week off for Thanksgiving, I used that time to go car shopping. I ended up with the 6i AT (all they had) with no options. I got it in Memphis for $19300 (financed through Mazda over 48 mo for 5.09%). Not as low as I'd like to have gone, but if I walked out of there, I really would've been walking.
I've been driving it a couple of days now and am pleased with the decision to get this one over the others in this class.
So, all of you people waiting for the price to come down--STOP! Get one now so it'll retain its value and I won't have made such a loss. hee hee
I knew nobody had got one last week, but there were 200+ messages over the week I was gone and didn't scroll through them all. I guess that's kinda cool to be the first.
By the way, I'd been reading this forum for quite a while and posting when I could. I was the one (for those who remember back then) who had a problem with the red lights on the guages. I'm finding that it's not so bad. Although there is this button on the radio called "dimmer" which is nice to have dim and night and not during the day. I think that's how it would normally be, but I turn my lights on everytime I'm in the car anyways (day or night), so I keep having to toggle that. Kinda of annoying, but no way around it, I guess.
Sunnyvale Mazda was the worst of the lot. They are bumbling fools... I also live down the street (literally) and visit there just to look at the inventory, but every time I've ever asked a salesperson a question there I've either been given incorrect information, or lied to outright. When my dad and I were test-driving a P5 when it first came out, he asked the salesperson in the car with us how much horsepower it had. He said '160.' I didn't call his bulls--t in the car because I didn't want to have more than a two-word conversation with him. Needless to say, I won't ever buy a car there.
Their service department isn't so hot either. My wife goes there for our oil changes because it's convenient and they treat her like she knows nothing about cars because she's a woman (and she knows a good deal about cars).
With all this talk about poor dealerships in the Bay Area, do you know of any reliable/good dealerships you would recommend?
I live in the north bay and unfortunately I don't have many resources with regards to Mazda. I bought my Tribute from Vacaville Mazda and have mixed results with them. Way back when the fuel smell problems were noticed with the Tributes (nearly 2 years ago), my dealer was one of the first to recognize and fix the problem. Lately, however, they've been falling off the ball, I've been waiting 6 weeks now for my headlight (with condensation) to be replaced. The bulb shattered with the rains 3 weeks ago and they still "haven't received the part yet". At this time of year, the lack of attention to the problem is nearly inexcusable.
"Do you have any idea what the mark up is on furiture or sports equipment? 3-5% over cost is VERY small by comparison . . . You would cry if you knew what you paid, over cost, for all the clothes you bought in the last 10 years."
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I think the "3-5% over cost" argument is specious if the dealer is actually just financing his inventory, in which case invoice is not the dealer's real cost (see my previous post). If I'm misinformed on this fact I would welcome any input.
I agree with you that a product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I also respect a salesperson's right to get the best price he/she can. If a person wants a car then and there and is not interested in negotiating, or is not knowledgeable enough to negotiate, and goes home happy, that's their prerogative. But if the subject comes up, I don't hesitate to tell people that with a bit of effort, they can usually save more money than they think, and it has little to do with being "nice" or not. It also has nothing to do with the mark-ups that clothes or furniture are sold at. If auto dealers didn't make an adequate profit, they wouldn't be in business. All that really matters is arriving at a mutually agreeable price - comparing margins in this context is essentially academic, IMO.
Anyway, you sound like a knowledgeable salesperson - always a refreshing thing. Congratulations on having a car that almost sells itself!
I'll be interested to see how long it takes for selling prices of the 6 to fall away from MSRP. Generally, it's inversely proportional to the number of cars on the lots! I notice that it didn't last long at all with the 03 Accord. It appears the initial feeding frenzy isn't materializing like on some other models, and limited to those who just have to have the first one in town, or to those who think paying more is "fun"! My salesguy actually used this one on me during the test drive, saying "just think, if you buy this car today you'll have the first one in town". Oh yeah!
whatever that means. Personally, I like a bargain if it is possible to get one. But few products are bargains these days. Instant gratification are the buzz words and that's what makes dealer profits sing.
As for the price of furniture it's usually 200% over invoice. If the store buys a boxcar load of sofas at 50% off factory prices, your price is factory cost for stores buying two or three sofas. And there's NO SUCH THING as free delivery. The cost of delivering furniture is figured into the price. If the store advertises Free Delivery 100 miles and you live in town, that's a hefty delivey fee = more profit. Tip: rent a small U-Haul truck or borrow a neighbor's pickup truck and pick up your furniture purchase, tell the salesman to knock off the delivery charge. You CAN negotiate furniture prices.
marchhare, congrats on the new purchase, enjoy the ride and keep us posted with your thoughts. By the way, what do you think of the headlights, are they good or bad? I have been dubious since seeing those "maglights" in the first photos.
They do the job perfectly well. I'm no expert and can only compare to the 94 Accord I previously owned, but they did better than the one and I could see fine at night.
Hey buddy, maybe you didn't see my other post... sorry I should have recapped. I bought a P5 with my wife six months back from Menlo Mazda. We bought it from Andy. In fact, we test drove the car two months before we bought it and told him we werent there to buy a car. He still told us a ballpark figure of what we'd be paying (no one else was willing to do this) and we reassured him that we buy cars from people that treat us with respect. Two months later, we walked in and with a beaming smile on his face, he sold us a car (at a very good price). I was so happy with the experience that I am going to buy my 6s from him. I'd recommend him and that dealership to anyone over our other choices. Was is the best dealership I've ever been to? no... but it was the best Mazda dealership I've found in the area...
Wow! After two and a half years hanging out here and getting into all kinds of trouble, I've FINALLY met someone from my town!
I own a 2000 Protege ES that I purchased from Whitten Brothers. My wife owns a 2002 Protege5 that we also purchased from Whitten. I've been a Whitten customer non-stop since 1991 when I purchased my first Protege, a '92 LX. So far I've purchased five cars from them in 11 years, and I really do like their staff and service.
I've already sat in (didn't have time to drive that day) a 6 there. I plan to make it my next car, but everyone is nice about not pressuring me since I've firmly stated that I won't be in the market for a new car again until at least 2005. My 2000 Protege ES is doing just fine half-paid off and with 47,000 miles on it. (Yes, I'm an official Mazda junkie.)
I live in Midlothian and work downtown. Drop me an e-mail if you'd like:
mdaffron@the-rma.org
(You'll notice from my e-mail address that I work for one of the most UNpopular businesses in Richmond!)
Sorry to burst your bubble. I had to look up RMA on google to find out what it was. I am an Army nomad and am not from Richmond, I just live in the area currently. Down in Chester we have no reason to dislike RMA.
Good to hear your experience at Whitten backs up my initial impressions. I'll definitely go to them first when I go shopping in the Summer. BTW, have you ever been to Victory Nissan? I test drove a Altima SE MT there last June before I had any idea what they were like. They were the only delaer to have an SE 3.5 MT at all. Now I hear the radio spots with "Mad Chad" and I don't think I'm going back there.
When I buy, it will be my third new car. I am amazed that you have purchased 5 from the same dealer since I have never even gone to the original dealer for service.
So to get back on topic.....
Did you sit in the grey 6 in the showroom? Not too shabby. I also saw a red, a blue and a couple of silver ones out front, but none had the sport pkg.
I will be interested to find out what the resale value on the 6 will be after a year or so. I wonder if these people who are paying MSRP will make their money back?
Considering the mark up in the car is rather slim...even if somebody pays MSRP they won't be ripped off.....now if the car had a $5000 mark up like some of the other products we offer, it might be a different story or if mazda rolls out a massive rebate like $3000 and the customer paid MSRP...then the guy can be really mad. But hopefully the car will carry it's weight, as expected.
Yes dealers do pay intrest rates on their inventory. Too bad we don't get the great 0% or even 3.9 huh?
Some inside info on Holdback.
Dealer holdback is not a profit center as a whole for a dealership. It is intended to cover the cost of doing business and keeping a good inventory of cars. The Holdback is enough to hold onto a car for about 2-3 months
We actually pay our service department to inspect them when they come in off transport.
We really do keep a staff of detailers to clean them up, remove all the protective tape (and also the all the extra gummy adhesive left from that tape). Then when they are sold we have to clean them up again with washing, vacuuming, shampoo footprints from the carpets from test drivers as well as scuffs on the doors.
We have to pay our fantastic lot staff to keep the cars organized and in stock from over stock lots (which we also pay rent on).
We pay to advertize the cars in the paper, and on the radio in our area.
They even pay me LOL.
The typicall hold back on a Mazda is between $300-$400.
Please don't expect to get the holdback for yourself. All the holdback is pooled to cover all vehicles. Keeping the largest inventory in our 9 state area is expensive.
You may think we just made a profit selling a Mazda6 right off the truck at invoice but..We have loads of cars that have been here for more than 4 months. Many that have been here for over 8 months and embarrasingly... We still have a new 2001 MPV in the corner looking for a good home, that nobody wants to talk about.
Even the article by Edmunds tells you that holdback is not negotiable.
You may have figured out by now I actually sell Mazdas. There are several here in Minnetonka who are unusual. We know the value of Respect and Honesty. Though some may not have experienced it at other dealers you will find good Customer Service is still out there in sales. You just have to look for it. It is worth it when you find it.
I would be happy to try and answer other questions or what ever. Even if you aren't in my area.
I was looking at used 2002 Altimas the other day on the net, and they seem to hold their value pretty well, while the last generation didn't. I know the 6 is not a redesign, it's an all-new car. But the 626 (the car that the 6 replaced) had low resale value, because of rebates and such. And also, this is not really a seller's market when it comes to used cars either.
Do you work at Fort Lee? I worked for the City of Hopewell for five years and lived in Chester for a while myself. My wife's Dad lives just up the road from there and is retired from the Army National Guard where he was a Black Hawk mechanic. We still get down to Fort Lee once in a while. Two of my uncles are judges in Chesterfield, so if you get in trouble zoom-zooming, it's nice to know me!!! (hee hee)
No, I haven't been to Victory Nissan. I visited Pence and Southpark Nissan back in April 2000 when I *almost* strayed from my Protege ways and bought a Sentra -- but luckily I came back to my senses and bought my Protege from Whitten in May 2000.
I've owned so many cars in such a short time because for one thing, my first car from Whitten -- the 1992 Protege LX -- hydroplaned and was totaled 8 months after I bought it. Whitten had given me such good service, I took my insurance check back to them and picked up another '92. I drove that car for Pizza Hut and racked up an amazing 83,000 miles in only 26 months (I think I beat Vocus here). I made the stupid mistake of trading the Protege for a Mazda B2300 (made by Ford) pickup in December 1994. That truck spent a LOT of time in the shop, but Whitten still won my heart helping me out at every turn -- even honoring my warranty for several ongoing problems until I parted with the truck in May 2000 at over 115,000 miles. My Protege has been flawless, and Whitten continues to provide loaner cars with each scheduled maintenance; heck, even my salesman (Buddy Hiatt, ask for him and tell him I told you to) has offered to take me out to lunch (his tab) in a 6 someday in the next few weeks! Everyone there knows me by name. When I bought the 2000 Protege ES, Buddy's first offer was BELOW invoice before we even started haggling. How's that for being a preferred customer?
So when it was time to replace my wife's 1995 Cavalier (which was falling to pieces and on its FOURTH head gasket at the ripe old age of 53,000 miles), we went to Whitten and she picked up a white Protege5 back in January. Again we got an excellent deal and a few options thrown in at substantial discounts.
About the 6 in the showroom -- it's been two weekends since I was there last, and then they had just gotten in a half-dozen or so and none were in the showroom. I sat in a black or dark-gray (hey, it was a dark, rainy day) 6S, and they had three or four 6i's out in front of the showroom on the sidewalk. They hadn't taken any of them inside yet.
I'll have to take Buddy up on his offer and get over there this week or next. I can't wait to drive that 6S!!!
We have a great salesman here at our local Mazda dealer (Jim Ellis Mazda in Marietta) and any time we are thinking about a Mazda product we always ask for him and we will most definitely buy our 6 from him. The funny thing is that whenever we are at his dealership he always has 2 or 3 customers waiting on him.
We know how obsessed you are with resale value, since you only keep cars for a year or so. When you keep a car at least five years, the resale value between competitors in the same class isn't that big a deal. We've been over this so many times I could vomit.
Comments
Bottom line-I don't care how much I paid--I LOVE this car and am soooo excited! I hope I'm able to drive by x-mas!!!
For some, many ladies, car buying is a fun, spirit charging experience where price is incidental, a minor part of the deal.
For some guys, the deal is the deal. Its part of the challenge, the conquest. After the make and model has been targeted, the price is paramount. They do not want to hear their friends say - YOU PAID WHAT!!!???
So forgive the guys here, for many, its all about the art of the deal.
Um, in LA and San Diego that's just plain not true. Dealerships generally treat people like dirt and will rob them blind without a second thought.
Would you like to know why they laugh at people? They talk behind your back when you sneer, snap & walk into a show room and treat everyone terribly. They shake their head and wonder why that person is such a mean spirited, scared little man.
Oh my, no. They laugh that they can send a salesperson out who doesn't know a lick about the product, lies about what it can or can't do/have and lies over and over to the smiling face waiting to buy the car. The sales process is a joke and it's stacked in favor of the seller when faced with ignorant buyers (most people).
You DON'T have to be rude to get what you want! Don't you get it?!
That's true. I prefer starting all sweet and nice and letting the salesperson reveal whether or not he's worth my respect. The bottomline: know what the product costs the dealer and get a price you feel is fair. In my opinion, no matter what the car is, anything $300 over invoice is too much profit for a stealership. They provide nothing and are entitled to as little cash as possible.
I don't care if they made money on me. Why shouldn't they? What is so terrible about someone making money? It's the same as Marshall Fields, Target, Nordstrom, etc.
Totally different products. You can't compare clothing sales to auto sales. One, unfortunately in this country, doesn't allow for the barter system. Thankfully with autosales you can still exercise control. The only way to get that control with clothing is to wait for sales, abuse coupons, use other means to get the lowest price. I much prefer the eastern view that people can haggle over prices on everything.
Should sales people merely exist for your own personal torture and gain?
I'd prefer if they didn't exist at all, as they're useless. Dealerships exist to move product. What happens with the salesperson is not my concern.
Should they give their cars away and then be treated like &*%@ ???????
They should sell their cars for as much as they can get. It's a free market. Let the Mazda dealers prey on the impetuous buyers - suck the life out of them. In three to four months the 6, like all mazda products, will be available at or below invoice for buyers willing to haggle. Even then some people will pay sticker. Let'em.
A dealership is more likely to want to give a discount, albeit a small one, to someone who treats them with dignity and respect, rather than what I'm guessing you treat someone like.
A dealership might throw in a negligible extra like wheel locks or floormats or give you a pitiful $500 discount so that you'll scamper out and tell people what a great deal you got but you know, any buyer with a little effort can get that and probably more. Spend enough time pushing and you'll get all sorts of extras, money off and maybe the salesman's first born.
Try it next time you purchase a vehicle. It works.
email works great for most purchases as you can avoid salespeople (useless leeches) and get the dealership's bottomline price (normally a bit over invoice). You can easily e-mail back a demand and make it a take it or leave it proposition. Plus you can get offers from all over town without ever visiting some dingy, rat-infested stealership.
If you like to knock it out, visit the dealership, find the car and then tell junior to go get the boss because you want to get the deal done fast. Offer invoice, don't use the 4 square and build from there. As soon as they don't budge, get up and walk. If they follow, you've got them. If not, try again somewhere else. It's ALWAYS a buyers market in the car business. and in 2002, definitely the power is in our hands.
I'm sorry if you are looking at this "more critically than me", but how much time do you think you are wasting, when you could be driving away in your new Mazda6?!
Yes, of course people are there to maximize their profits! Is that any reason to treat them like hell?
By the way, a dealer WILL make the deal if they are not making any money. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Where do you think this money is coming from? Take away the profit, the hold back, everything--where are they finding the profit? From the profit fairy!?
Don't you understand that unless you are selling BMW's or Lexus's, the profit margin is SMALL!
Thank you for the good wishes!
"I'd prefer if they didn't exist at all, as they're useless. Dealerships exist to move product. What happens with the salesperson is not my concern"...
Never in my life have I heard such a disgusting remark about a human being.
You are the mean spirited, scared little man I was refering to.
I'm sorry you're taking this so seriously. Give yourself a break; not everything is about you.
It's a blast! I love to haggle, toss it around and make sellers squirm. As someone else pointed out, for many of us it's the deal that's the fun part. I help all my friends and family buy cars because they know I will not settle for a bad price (MSRP) and that I dearly love automobiles and car buying. someone calls me and says she wants to get a car this weekend, I'm all over that like Shaq on a rebound.
I'm sorry if you are looking at this "more critically than me", but how much time do you think you are wasting, when you could be driving away in your new Mazda6?!
95% of the population, regardless of what they think, have nothing but time (how much do they waste watching the idiot box in the living room weekly? 30-40 hours?!). most people will sacrifice 5-6 hours of time car shopping to save hundreds/thousands of dollars.
Yes, of course people are there to maximize their profits! Is that any reason to treat them like hell?
No. But is there any reason to hand away money? No. They're out to make money, we're out to save it. Eventually we come to an agreement either on price or that we'll never agree. Either way neither party will feel cheated.
By the way, a dealer WILL make the deal if they are not making any money. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Give me an example. Don't forget holdback and dealer-to-cash money and backend points on financing. I'll gladly sell you a car for 19k that invoices for 20k if I'm doing your financing and I get you a 9 or 10% rate (of which I get 4-6 points). I make the money either way.
Where do you think this money is coming from? Take away the profit, the hold back, everything--where are they finding the profit? From the profit fairy!?
The most important part of car buying and dealer profit: not my problem. If the dealer "only" makes $500 on the deal with holdback, then they're doing just fine. It's in service where all dealerships make the bulk of their profits. Also, just because you got a deal, that doesn't mean idiots don't walk in off the street and pay MSRP plus "market mark-up" and get the sealer wax and use dealer financing with back end points. You can sell 3 cars near invoice and 1 for over MSRP and you're doing well.
Don't you understand that unless you are selling BMW's or Lexus's, the profit margin is SMALL!
LOL. A $26,300 Mazda6 comes with an invoice of $23,800. That's $2500 right there. Add in the holdback (lets say only 1%) and we're at $2750 profit before warranty work and repairs. That's small? Nearly 3k profit on a car that won't even sit on the lot for a day?! Profit margins on SUVs are even more sickening.
"Plus you can get offers from all over town without ever visiting some dingy, rat-infested stealership." LOL!!!!
"Spend enough time pushing and you'll get all sorts of extras, money off and maybe the salesman's first born. "
"That's true. I prefer starting all sweet and nice and letting the salesperson reveal whether or not he's worth my respect." Excellent! usually takes
And finally - "It's ALWAYS a buyers market in the car business. and in 2002, definitely the power is in our hands."
Yeah!
That human being chose to go into sales. do not feel sorry for him as he made that decision with dollar signs in his eyes. Those who can sell thrive in that market. Sales is one of the few professions you can hit without any education and become a millionaire.
Neither I nor the dealership have any vested interest in the salesperson's life. If he wanted a safe job he could have gone into accounting.
You are the mean spirited, scared little man I was refering to.
Watch the ad hominem style of responses. That's not cool. I haven't attacked you, so extend to me the same respect.
-Alt
http//www.sylvania.com/auto
Venture1 asked if the Mazda6 has driving lights, yes, it does. You can see a single bulb placed at the outer edge of the highbeam lamp's reflector.
And STOP all this bickering!! Even if one of you is right you haven't won anything!! Sheesh!! Take it outside!
fowler3
As far as salesman, I have to agree again. I work for a company that markets PR software. I can't tell you how many complaints I have gotten from customers about our product, because it doesn't perform one particular functionality. Well, turns out, the product is not suppose to perform that function. "But the SALESMAN told me it would", the client usually says. Most salesman will sell their mother for a sale.
As I understand it, most dealers finance their own inventory and make monthly payments on it, just like consumers. If they sell a car as soon as they get it from the manufacturer, their actual cash investment in the car might be very small - perhaps only one month's loan payment. If they sell that car right away for only a few hundred dollars over invoice, they might be making 100% on their actual cash investment. If they can get retail price for the car, their actual profit margin might be 1000%. In any case, don't measure the profit margin from the invoice price - measure it from the dealer's actual cash investment in the car, which might be only a fraction of the invoice price. Add in buyer financing, add-ons, etc., and you're talking about a lot of potential profit.
This is why dealers can make money selling a lot of cars at or below invoice, even in the absence of holdbacks and incentives. It's also why they adore people who aren't tough negotiators.
I'm simplifying the process, but this is basically how it works, as I understand it. Do not buy a salesperson's sob story that they are not making any money by giving you a big discount, and do not think that you'll get a better deal just by being "nice". You can be nice and still be a tough negotiator.
I've never treated a salesperson rudely who did not treat me rudely first (unfortunately, too many have). But tough negotiating is not rude.
Of course, it's entirely your right to buy a car as soon as it comes out and avoid negotiating in order to have a "fun" experience. Just don't think that the salesperson has done you any favors by giving you a small discount.
As for whether dealerships have changed since the 70's, I fear not. I generally encounter the same problems now as I did then. Of course, some dealers and salespeople are better than others.
Let's take a deep breath, a step back and calm down, okay?
We don't have to agree with each other all the time -- what a boring world THAT would be ;-) -- but we do need to treat each other with respect.
It is my understanding that Edmunds publishes the best times, and since it is stated in the review as eight seconds, I think that is with brake-torquing. Again, please clarify. Thanks.
You are correct in assuming we publish the best times on the specification sheet. The 0-to-60 time of eight seconds was achieved after brake-torquing the engine to 2,000 rpm. Before trying that technique the car was taking closer to nine seconds to reach 60 mph. Sorry for the confusion. — Ed.
-----
So, it's official, the 6i MT will slaughter a 6s AT from 0-60. The best time I've seen for a 6i MT is 7.8s (can't remember source, but it was European), and just stomping the accelerator on the 6s AT will take 8.7 seconds to get to 60.
Auto tranny's suck. If I may, I'd like to express how disappointed I am with the general public for driving so many automatics. Most dealers around me don't have a single manual tranny in stock. Yet, if I could get one, I'd be please to know that my car would not only be faster off a stoplight, but it'd get 6 miles-per-gallon farther on the highway.
You don't have to be rude to a dealer to get a good deal and if you do have to play hardball you should try another dealer. There are too many good cars in the 6's class for them to not bend on price. I go into the dealer knowing exactly what I want to pay and I tell them. Either they will do the deal or not. If not, I keep my current car until they will or if they wait long enough something better will come out anyways or they may even have special interest rate offers.
If we buy a 6 at invoice w/o 0.0% interest it will already be a sacrifice because we know that as a subsidiary of Ford eventually they will have 0.0%. This is the only sacrifice we are willing to make and we refuse to pay more than a few hundred over invoice.
BTW: Does anyone know who qualifies for the Mazda S-X plan?
Stephen
It takes about 25 minutes. It includes 5 on/off ramps, plenty of hiway and city, tight curves on back roads and even the much needed minnesota potholes. We are confident that you'll know exactly what to expect from any Mazda you drive here.
You shouldn't be surprised to hear they ended up on some of the roads we already love.
That drive is the best part of my day. Sometimes I even zip my P5 over there before work to push the limits of my tires.
If you think the 6 looks good on paper...you gotta try it on the road!
I mean, seriously?
I thought that you sincerely believed that the Ford brand and its subsidiaries, and especially the Ford assembly plants, are the worst things that could ever happen to the human kind.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding, but this is the impression I got from your posts.
how many people do you know who are eager to admit that they paid MSRP for any car.
I pay what I think something is worth... to me.
I wouldn't buy a Neon for a dollar and I would pay more than MSRP for the Odessey (if I were silly enough to want one over the MPV).
I'll pay full price on the newest CD I want and Half price on the clothes I am browsing through.
Do you have any idea what the mark up is on furiture or sports equipment? 3-5% over cost is VERY small by comparison.
You would cry if you knew what you paid, over cost, for all the clothes you bought in the last 10 years.
It will be hard to find a dealer willing to accept that pricing right now. You'll have to wait until the dealers get more inventory on their lots.
http://www.johnholtz.com/specials_detail.asp?Make=6&CatID=5
I've been driving it a couple of days now and am pleased with the decision to get this one over the others in this class.
So, all of you people waiting for the price to come down--STOP! Get one now so it'll retain its value and I won't have made such a loss. hee hee
so how does it feel to be the first one posting!?!?!?!?
:-D
By the way, I'd been reading this forum for quite a while and posting when I could. I was the one (for those who remember back then) who had a problem with the red lights on the guages. I'm finding that it's not so bad. Although there is this button on the radio called "dimmer" which is nice to have dim and night and not during the day. I think that's how it would normally be, but I turn my lights on everytime I'm in the car anyways (day or night), so I keep having to toggle that. Kinda of annoying, but no way around it, I guess.
So get out there and get one for yourselves!
Their service department isn't so hot either. My wife goes there for our oil changes because it's convenient and they treat her like she knows nothing about cars because she's a woman (and she knows a good deal about cars).
-Alt
I live in the north bay and unfortunately I don't have many resources with regards to Mazda. I bought my Tribute from Vacaville Mazda and have mixed results with them. Way back when the fuel smell problems were noticed with the Tributes (nearly 2 years ago), my dealer was one of the first to recognize and fix the problem. Lately, however, they've been falling off the ball, I've been waiting 6 weeks now for my headlight (with condensation) to be replaced. The bulb shattered with the rains 3 weeks ago and they still "haven't received the part yet". At this time of year, the lack of attention to the problem is nearly inexcusable.
********
I think the "3-5% over cost" argument is specious if the dealer is actually just financing his inventory, in which case invoice is not the dealer's real cost (see my previous post). If I'm misinformed on this fact I would welcome any input.
I agree with you that a product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I also respect a salesperson's right to get the best price he/she can. If a person wants a car then and there and is not interested in negotiating, or is not knowledgeable enough to negotiate, and goes home happy, that's their prerogative. But if the subject comes up, I don't hesitate to tell people that with a bit of effort, they can usually save more money than they think, and it has little to do with being "nice" or not. It also has nothing to do with the mark-ups that clothes or furniture are sold at. If auto dealers didn't make an adequate profit, they wouldn't be in business. All that really matters is arriving at a mutually agreeable price - comparing margins in this context is essentially academic, IMO.
Anyway, you sound like a knowledgeable salesperson - always a refreshing thing. Congratulations on having a car that almost sells itself!
As for the price of furniture it's usually 200% over invoice. If the store buys a boxcar load of sofas at 50% off factory prices, your price is factory cost for stores buying two or three sofas. And there's NO SUCH THING as free delivery. The cost of delivering furniture is figured into the price. If the store advertises Free Delivery 100 miles and you live in town, that's a hefty delivey fee = more profit. Tip: rent a small U-Haul truck or borrow a neighbor's pickup truck and pick up your furniture purchase, tell the salesman to knock off the delivery charge. You CAN negotiate furniture prices.
marchhare, congrats on the new purchase, enjoy the ride and keep us posted with your thoughts. By the way, what do you think of the headlights, are they good or bad? I have been dubious since seeing those "maglights" in the first photos.
fowler3
best of luck to you,
-Alt
I own a 2000 Protege ES that I purchased from Whitten Brothers. My wife owns a 2002 Protege5 that we also purchased from Whitten. I've been a Whitten customer non-stop since 1991 when I purchased my first Protege, a '92 LX. So far I've purchased five cars from them in 11 years, and I really do like their staff and service.
I've already sat in (didn't have time to drive that day) a 6 there. I plan to make it my next car, but everyone is nice about not pressuring me since I've firmly stated that I won't be in the market for a new car again until at least 2005. My 2000 Protege ES is doing just fine half-paid off and with 47,000 miles on it. (Yes, I'm an official Mazda junkie.)
I live in Midlothian and work downtown. Drop me an e-mail if you'd like:
mdaffron@the-rma.org
(You'll notice from my e-mail address that I work for one of the most UNpopular businesses in Richmond!)
Meade
I thought it was clever of mazda to do the fake bulb instead of a cheaper looking headlight assembly..
rich
Good to hear your experience at Whitten backs up my initial impressions. I'll definitely go to them first when I go shopping in the Summer. BTW, have you ever been to Victory Nissan? I test drove a Altima SE MT there last June before I had any idea what they were like. They were the only delaer to have an SE 3.5 MT at all. Now I hear the radio spots with "Mad Chad" and I don't think I'm going back there.
When I buy, it will be my third new car. I am amazed that you have purchased 5 from the same dealer since I have never even gone to the original dealer for service.
So to get back on topic.....
Did you sit in the grey 6 in the showroom? Not too shabby. I also saw a red, a blue and a couple of silver ones out front, but none had the sport pkg.
Rich
Yes dealers do pay intrest rates on their inventory. Too bad we don't get the great 0% or even 3.9 huh?
Some inside info on Holdback.
Dealer holdback is not a profit center as a whole for a dealership. It is intended to cover the cost of doing business and keeping a good inventory of cars. The Holdback is enough to hold onto a car for about 2-3 months
We actually pay our service department to inspect them when they come in off transport.
We really do keep a staff of detailers to clean them up, remove all the protective tape (and also the all the extra gummy adhesive left from that tape). Then when they are sold we have to clean them up again with washing, vacuuming, shampoo footprints from the carpets from test drivers as well as scuffs on the doors.
We have to pay our fantastic lot staff to keep the cars organized and in stock from over stock lots (which we also pay rent on).
We pay to advertize the cars in the paper, and on the radio in our area.
They even pay me LOL.
The typicall hold back on a Mazda is between $300-$400.
Please don't expect to get the holdback for yourself. All the holdback is pooled to cover all vehicles. Keeping the largest inventory in our 9 state area is expensive.
You may think we just made a profit selling a Mazda6 right off the truck at invoice but..We have loads of cars that have been here for more than 4 months. Many that have been here for over 8 months and embarrasingly... We still have a new 2001 MPV in the corner looking for a good home, that nobody wants to talk about.
Even the article by Edmunds tells you that holdback is not negotiable.
You may have figured out by now I actually sell Mazdas. There are several here in Minnetonka who are unusual. We know the value of Respect and Honesty.
Though some may not have experienced it at other dealers you will find good Customer Service is still out there in sales. You just have to look for it. It is worth it when you find it.
I would be happy to try and answer other questions or what ever. Even if you aren't in my area.
No, I haven't been to Victory Nissan. I visited Pence and Southpark Nissan back in April 2000 when I *almost* strayed from my Protege ways and bought a Sentra -- but luckily I came back to my senses and bought my Protege from Whitten in May 2000.
I've owned so many cars in such a short time because for one thing, my first car from Whitten -- the 1992 Protege LX -- hydroplaned and was totaled 8 months after I bought it. Whitten had given me such good service, I took my insurance check back to them and picked up another '92. I drove that car for Pizza Hut and racked up an amazing 83,000 miles in only 26 months (I think I beat Vocus here). I made the stupid mistake of trading the Protege for a Mazda B2300 (made by Ford) pickup in December 1994. That truck spent a LOT of time in the shop, but Whitten still won my heart helping me out at every turn -- even honoring my warranty for several ongoing problems until I parted with the truck in May 2000 at over 115,000 miles. My Protege has been flawless, and Whitten continues to provide loaner cars with each scheduled maintenance; heck, even my salesman (Buddy Hiatt, ask for him and tell him I told you to) has offered to take me out to lunch (his tab) in a 6 someday in the next few weeks! Everyone there knows me by name. When I bought the 2000 Protege ES, Buddy's first offer was BELOW invoice before we even started haggling. How's that for being a preferred customer?
So when it was time to replace my wife's 1995 Cavalier (which was falling to pieces and on its FOURTH head gasket at the ripe old age of 53,000 miles), we went to Whitten and she picked up a white Protege5 back in January. Again we got an excellent deal and a few options thrown in at substantial discounts.
About the 6 in the showroom -- it's been two weekends since I was there last, and then they had just gotten in a half-dozen or so and none were in the showroom. I sat in a black or dark-gray (hey, it was a dark, rainy day) 6S, and they had three or four 6i's out in front of the showroom on the sidewalk. They hadn't taken any of them inside yet.
I'll have to take Buddy up on his offer and get over there this week or next. I can't wait to drive that 6S!!!
Meade
Meade