Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

paisan

Pastor Steve,

We all have our callings!

-mike

kenpeacock

Hi all -- just joined the forum & would like to ask for some advice on my 2000 legacy - ca 65k miles - recently the MIL came on & car began misfire. Had the obd2 code readout done at advance auto - said 302 - cyl. #2 misfire. Replaced plugs & wires - cleaned coil pack contacts etc. Checked injector #2 -- resistance across terminals, & harness connector etc. seems to be within spec. Haven't checked all voltages at the ECM yet, but seems OK. Car runs & drives, but rpm needs to be relatively high so doesn't stumble. Poor idle, but doesn't die.

Checked all the obvious - nothing loose etc., vacuum lines seem OK. still the same flashing MIL i.e, hard failure & continued bad running. I plan to check for possible intake manifold leak (unlit propane torch in the general area). Any ideas? or possible "quick fixes" I might try? appreciate any help.

btw, I noticed one of the posts discussed timing belt replacement at 105k miles for a later model. Is the recommended replacement the same for my 2000? thanks much. -- Ken

caliberchic

Welcome Ken, this is a great group I am sure you'll find your answers here!

fibber2

Pastor Steve,

Somehow, maybe by some 'devine intervention', the electro-mechanical gene skipped from my uncle to me. My uncle could fix virtually anything while his brother (my dad) barely knows which end of the screwdriver to hold. Uncle's kids are much the same way as my dad. Go figure! But heck, I'm greatful.

Steve

Off topic - I am again serving as a House Captain for an organization called Rebuilding Together. Rehab work on the home of an 80 yr old so that she can stay put. Putting those skills to work on things other than just cars!

fibber2

Ken (?),

You looked at the right stuff first. The ECM uses timing data from the cam & crank sensor to determine which cyl is misbehaving. Assuming it is correct (and it reportedly usually is), one of the things left to check is the spray pattern of the injector itself. It's coil might be in spec, so it is attempting to open, but either the signal is weak (electrical feed), or the nozzle itself could be clogged.

Steve

xwesx

Off topic - I am again serving as a House Captain for an organization called Rebuilding Together. Rehab work on the home of an 80 yr old so that she can stay put. Putting those skills to work on things other than just cars!

I love off-topic posts! Sounds like a great project. Had I the means, I would enjoy being part of your team on that project.

bogey5

Awesome!!

kenpeacock

thanks Steve. I'd tried some in-the-tank injector cleaner - actually had some in before the problem started - can that stuff cause clogs? a wild shot, I know. Any better way of cleaning the injector - to fix that spay pattern if that's the problem -- other than pulling the thing out? It's not readily accessible so the whole fuel rail has to be pulled, yes? If I have to do that, maybe best to put in new injector? Only 65k miles, so not usual I would think. Any other thoughts welcome. thanks again. -- Ken

fibber2

Google "Rebuilding Together" to learn more. With something like 250 chapters affiliates nationwide, you might just find one near you that you can give some of your time and tallent. Our local chapter (Dutchess County) is taking on 18 homes this Spring, and members of our congregation are joining me on one of them.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming!

paisan

Not too hard to change.

-mike

fibber2

Ken,

Most of those cleaners are pretty strong solvents meant to break down the varnish and other deposits that form, so I doubt that caused the problem. Two last ditch things before you mess with the rails:

Supposedly the best over the counter cleaner is Chevron Techron. Next up would be some of the more advanced oil change places that have a formula that they pump right into the rails. If they don't work, then you are left with replacing the injector. It takes so much work to pull one out, and invariably you destroy the seal/hose between the injector and the rail, that you might just as well buy a new one. You would not be the first crew member that has had to replace one or more.

But before you go to this, I still wonder about the coil pack. It could have an internal leakage and not be performing well. Without better diagnostic tools, you are down to parts swapping until you find it.

Steve

jfl

"...check for possible intake manifold leak (unlit propane torch in the general area)..." :surprise:

I typically spray carb cleaner at joints, fittings, and hose connections to check for leaks.

Jim

Mr_Shiftright

propane torch is a standard diagnostic practice...in skilled hands of a technician of course....it really works well. They have a special nozzle and it's very low volume.

soarindude

I have a week to determine if I should keep this car. A 98 Automatic Outback with 120K on it. When I make a sharp turn L or R the car seems to shudder. I assume this is the result of the center differential being too tight. I've never had an AWD car so I don't know what to expect. The differential fluid looks pristine, no metal flakes or discoloration. I read some posts about figure 8's but cannot find the original posts on this issue.

Thanks, Scott

xwesx

This diagnosis depends somewhat on how the car is shuddering, but when I first purchased my '96 outback at 83K miles, a sharp turn (especially to the right) would result in a rapid, loud "thunking" sound that was distinctly different and more localized from the full-car vibration/shudder one would feel if, say, a wheel was out of balance. The shudder on mine was due to a bad driveshaft bushing - the one that mounts/suspends the front portion of the driveshaft from the body of the car. It was an easy replacement - I purchased the part used for about $250 and never had another problem with it (put another 140K miles on it).

ateixeira

Next thing to try is to replace the coil pack. The OE one was just $80 for my Forester, and it only takes one for all cylinders.

I had to replace mine after some chip munks chewed through some of my wiring. Seriously.

I had the same symptoms, except it was a misfire on #4.

Coil pack fixed it permanently. It's been great since.

-juice

kenpeacock

thanks all, for some great advice. Coil pack does sound like a good next step -- actually, we'd had some mice/chipmonk? trying to live on the warm manifold apparently - even though my wife drives the car every day -- I'd cleaned out many acorns (long tweezers etc. ...) then next time I rode in the car, we smelled a pleasant toast - barbeque odor after warmup. I found a blackened cedar-mulch chip & removed (spoiled chip's warm meal no doubt -- gives a new slant on the famous 1930s meals heated while driving -- hang that stew pot on the exhaust manifold ...). So maybe he went on to the wiring instead ... I'll check again, but nothing obvious last time.

I'll get some Techron, then maybe go right to the coil pack replacement suggested. I don't have those better diagnostics tools, & the local types all charge $96 just to strap on the code reader, then everything else goes up from there. Have a friend who turned vehicle over to dealer for similar problem & ended up with a $1300.00 bill. Would be ahead with the $80 coil pack. I was going to check for leaks with a std propane torch - is the special head mentioned just longer? could maybe make one from tubing? Otherwise, could do the carb cleaner thing - does get messy & is less controllable though. When your cyl. #4 showed same symptoms, did it run OK at medium rpm, not die, but idle poorly? Was the wiring break obvious? Thanks again for the good advice I'll try. best regards, -- ken

ateixeira

Here's mine, photo slightly doctored.

soarindude

Thanks for the comments. It really is a shudder in the whole vehicle. I feel it in the seat of my pants. It is similar to the feel when you turn a 4 wheel drive vehicle w/o a center differential on dry pavement. Like something is binding up a little. No tire squeel though. It happens even just creeping along at a few MPH so I don't think it's an out of balance. As a matter of fact at 80mph the car is very smooth.

Scott

paddy64

Thanks -- that was the problem. Didn't know about the dual filament thing. Now I know.

Thanks for your help.

soarindude

Xwesx, I just got a call from the garage where I took it to get it checked out, they advised that the rear differential fluid likely needs to be changed, or has been changed with the wrong stuff. They will replace it for $46.00 so I figure that is pretty cheap to see if it fixes the problem, if it doesn't fix it I think I will not keep the car. They said they see the same thing a lot on Honda CRV with AWD. I'll let the forum know the outcome.
Scott

xwesx

I do not think it does, but do you know if your car has limited slip rear differential? If it was "stuttering" due to the wrong fluid, there are additives you can put in that are supposed to eliminate that problem. I know that Amsoil makes one, though I am not sure what it is called off the top of my head.

Let us all know how it goes. If, by some amazing chance, it is the rear differential that is causing the problem, those are relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. Whether that means the car is worth keeping, for you, is an entirely separate matter!

paisan

The only Subarus that need the LSD additive are the SVX, STi, and the Spec B. The viscous LSDs don't need the special fluid.

-mike

xwesx

Thanks, Mike. I did not know that.

alaskalegacy

My 1991 Legacy was broken into by way of the front passenger side door. I've purchased new glass and have the door panel off but can't figure out how to slide the new glass in. Any suggestions?

jmoose

I have a 2001 Outback LTD which had the cylinder head gasket problem a few years ago. The dealer we took it to replaced the gasket and determined that the head itself was within tolerances...so that worked for a few months, then the gasket blew again and the dealer we took it to the second time not only replaced the gasket but also sent the head out to be remilled, which he told us should have been done the first time. Since then, no problems. The car now has about 80,000 miles on it and I need to trade this car, or my 97 6-cyl Camry (which I love, but the Subaru has a hitch and AWD). Can anyone advise on the probability that I will have yet another blown head gasket in my future if I keep the Subaru? Despite the comment about the hitch, we don't abuse the car, and I would expect it to last another 100,000 miles with proper care and feeding.

On the other hand, I wouldn't buy this model year used because of the gasket problems, so perhaps I shouldn't keep it. Suggestions?

fordwrench

I just got the car back from the clutch replacement...what a difference!!! The clutch takeup is smooth and no more juddering. I only hope it is long lasting. Subaru paid for the flywheel and labor, I paid for the disc plate and throwout bearing. It cost me $250 and it was well worth it. My hat is off to the dealer also, Gentile Subaru in Racine WI; I have worked at Ford or Lincoln stores for the last 18 years And I'm embarrased at how those dealers have treated their customers. The domestics have a lot to learn on how to treat people with respect. From the writeup to the shuttle ride back to get the car to the car being washed at pickup all in one day and being a warranty repair I know they didn't make a ton of money on this repair, it was a class act.

subearu

Gentile in Racine is a good place, that's my local dealer too. Unfortunately I don't use the shuttle as I'm still 25 minutes south of them, but the service manager lives nearby and has taken my F-XT in for me (I had a power steering/idler pulley whine issue).

-Brian

xwesx

In terms of resale, the work performed on your car is a definite positive point. There is no telling whether the problem will recur yet again, but the chances are slimmer both because the gasket material was, apparently, improved from the original and because the second job appears to have been quite thorough. Have you kept the "conditioner" added to the coolant since then? If so, that should help reduce the chance as well.

Just seat of the pants, I am also split if offering feedback on which car to keep. The Camry should prove more reliable/lower cost to maintain in the long run, but the Outback is infinitely more versatile. When making a choice like this, it is almost too bad that you have such a decent pair of cars. :P I guess you really just have to carefully assess how much you use that added wagon versatility. For me, with one car, keeping the wagon would be the only way to go (if I could reasonably feel doing so would not end up being a daily headache!).

ailewe

hello everybody,
I have a 96 Subaru outback. i have had it for almost a year and it was a good car. two days ago: after 5 mnts of driving, the car died completely. first,i lost the radio. then the car stopped and there was no sign of life in it. i tried to turn it on but there was not the least sign of life. i towed it to the nearest mechanic who run a couple of tests on it and concluded that it was the battery that had a dead cell and should be replaced. i was so surprised to learn that a battery could do such a thing while the car was running. should n't it be the alternator not the battery that may cause such a suddent death? in the end i got the battery replaced with a new one and the car works fine now ( hope it keeps that). Was the mechanic right in his diagnosis?

paisan

I'd think it was the alternator as well. Did they test the alternator? A bad cell could drain the alternator power though.

-mike

ailewe

honstly, i'm not sure that he did but i saw him hooking a couple of devices into battery.

caliberchic

Just heads up, I added more tag words to your title so you will get a few more replies from members who may know about batteries.

grahampeters

G'day

From what you describe, it sounds as if the plates in one cell have collapsed, essentially breeaking the electical circuit in the battery. What you described of the radio failing initially (electronics may not operate except in farily narrow voltage band) and then engine dying, suggests that battery had catastrophically failed and power was coming from the alternator. You may want to get a chcek of the electrical system generally but you have probably done the tight thing to replace battery. Generally, you should consider any battery failure above about three years as normal, although many will lst five to ten years before failing.

Cheers

Graham

xwesx

If the battery failed like Graham described, then perhaps, but if it just had a bad cell (i.e., reduces total capacity of the battery), then I would say no. I have had an alternator fail on my '96 and the sequence of events was identical to yours. It will probably take 50-100 miles to drain a fully charged, new battery if the alternator is not recharging it. So, do not stray far from home until you have clocked a couple hundred miles.....

ailewe

ok, i guess i better get the alternator checked. hmmm, hope not another couple of hundereds of bucks.

paisan

Alternator is a cake walk. You can pick one up for under $200 and install it in about 1hr.

-mike

xwesx

Agreed. I paid somewhere around $120 for the replacement in my '96 (from Napa) and it took 20 minutes to install.

jefftt

Ken,
Did you fix your problem?
I have the EXACT same problem with my 2000 Legacy Outback.
MIL on and sometines blinking.
302 Code misfire cylinder 2
Idles poorly but does not die.

I have replaced the plugs and wires. No help.
Checked ignition coil according to Haynes manual. According to the manual specs, coil was bad.
Replaced coil today, but still running rough.

My exhaust seems loud in front (yours?). I'll look underneath tonight.

regards,
Jeff

ateixeira

Do as reset after you replace the coil. That did the trick for my '98 Forester.

k1morrow

I recently had come into my posssion a 1992 subaru legacy 179,000. It needed a timing belt the teeth were gone. so we put that on and the car starts now but has a miss. to my knowledge it did not miss before the timing belt issue. Have checked two injectors on 1 and 3 cylindars but not two and four. Have put new plugs in also. It has power surges at high rpms 50 to 70 mph. and while driving in town it will die at stop signs ect if you don't keep the rpms up. I think the engine is a 2.5 liter 16 valve 4 door sedan. Thanks k1morrow

paisan

Whoever did the belt probably have it off by a tooth or 2 I'd make them re-check the timing marks.

-mike

k1morrow

mike, I have been told they will not start even if they are off one tooth, is this true? k1morrow

dahlstrom

I am new to this group but I am puzzled as what to do next. I find that when I go on long trips generly two to six hours my check engine light comes on. When I read the codes it tells me that cylinder 1 and 2 have misfired. I replaced my spark plugs and wires on all four. I have relplaced my ignition coil and I have replaced my ignition module or it might be called the ignitor. I have even tried running tecron threw a gas tank and the light still keeps coming on. Any sugjestion would be helpful?

paisan

nope if it's off by 1 or 2 teeth they will run but won't run well. They'll run as you described.

-mike

ateixeira

You might want to do a compression test to see if the rings are leaking or if the valves are sealing well.

You've tried the things I would suggest as quick fixes.

-juice

xwesx

Yep. I had mine off by a tooth for a while. It ran and idled without any problems, but not as smoothly as it did when I corrected the problem! Two teeth? Probably will not idle well at all.

free2

Check injector pulse ,if you have no pulse at idle and pulse in higher RPMS you need a new tps .

jefftt

Turned off MIL.
Did the Techron fuel injection cleaner and drove.
Some occasional MIL blinking.
At about mile 40, light went back on solid.
Still runs/idles bad.
Looked under car, found cracked Y-pipe on cyl-2 side (driver). I will get exhaust repaired and go from there.
Can bad exhaust cause misfire code?
My Brat runs rough if the exhaust leaks.
-Jeff

paisan

Yup the cracked pipe is not providing enough back pressure. This will cause issues.

-mike