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The DC minivans were innovative, but not world class -- they lacked quality.
Between 1971 and 1996 I worked for car dealerships, at the end with about 20 franchises. Everything from Ferrari and Lexus and Infiniti and Benz and BMW to Toyota to Dodge / Chrysler / Plymouth / Jeep and Cadillac / Olds / Chevy.
Over the decades it has been painfully clear that quality just isn't a priority with the domestic manufacturers, which as an American I find embarrassing and offensive. But facts are facts, and their poor record -- as shown over the years by JD Powers and Consumer Reports --verifies what I am saying.
GM has been notable over the years for knowingly putting out crap. For a while AMC was putting 4-cyl GM "Iron Duke" engines in Jeeps (a/k/a the Vega "check the gas and fill up the oil engine"). Customers were complaining about knocking noises in the morning. In response AMC forwarded copies of a GM tech bulletin saying that "piston slap in the morning is considered normal for this engine." We had a good laugh over that one! And besides Vegas, let us not forget X-cars, 8-6-4 engines, the Olds diesel upt through their numerous recalls so far this year. Clearly quality is not part of their corporate culture.
The DC minivans were innovative, but not world class -- they lacked quality.<<
They were the unquestioned best in their market segment for about 15 years. That's what I would consider world class. If they weren't the world class minivan, who was? It took the Japanese companies a very long time to match them.
I'm so upset about this that I everyone I speak with who asks me about the car is told in no uncertain terms to stay away from the brand, that their quality and commitment to quality has been reduced to GM's notoriously low levels. I may have "sold" two SAAB's for them in the past, now I discourage anyone who asks about my car from buying the brand.<<
Hopefully they do their homework and find out that most of the issues with your bleeding edge '03 are no longer issues with the '04's, and give the car a fair shot
>>Marketing 101 -- good word of mouth is invaluable, bad word of mouth can break you and is repeated with far more frequency. Any reputable brand trying to increase its market share realizes this and endeavors to exceed expectations, not disappoint. Memo to SAAB: producing inferior products and treating customers the way GM has for 30 years is a formula for decreasing market share, not increasing it. <<
Market share is increasing, and there is a lot of positive word of mouth as well
I too was sold on the looks of the car. However, I was disappointed that the Linear was equipped as it was, even with the launch package. My Arc (August 2003, 12,500 miles) has been a wonderful car. I enjoy it a little more each day. The audio system doesn't have the bass response of many systems and that is fine with me. After following rantings for a while, I felt I needed to respond. You seem to have only ill feelings concerning domestic automakers (especially GM), but you still elected to get a GM. You made a mistake (at least one) in that you elected to not test drive the car properly before taking delivery. You are the only one to blame here. You stated that you didn't want to lose the $500. Your error again. You seem to be losing 36x your monthly payment. I base this on your rantings. That is considerably more than $500. It may be that the speakers needed to upgraded, they have now done that. You could have waited, just as many of us did. I learned long ago, as a GM family member, that you should never purchase/lease a first year model. My Arc was one of the last to be produced in 2003. I took my chance and was willing to live with the consequences. I think that you should quit bad mouthing the car and start owing up to your mistake.
They were the best in their class for a long period because they were only competing with domestics for that period of time; the Japanese didn't start producing minivans until many years later.
I admit that I made mistake(s) and will have to live with the consequences.
I also admit that I have a negative attitude about the domestic manufacturers -- as I said before, as an American I am embarrassed that domestic auto manufacturers refuse to make world-class products (for thirty-plus years American cars have consistently lagged the Europeans and Japanese on quality. A run that long isn't by accident -- assuming that Detroit has the know-how, it means that they have chosen not to make world-class products).
That being said, that doesn't change the fact that the 9-3ss stereo is horrible -- and somebody signed off on that before it went into production, and so SAAB knowingly and deliberately put that crappy system into production. The squeeks (though the Japanese seem to avoid this in their first year cars) and the recall for stalling and the delay in OnStar installation are all first year glitches. The lousy stereo was an intentional design choice (the stereo in a Cavalier loaner they gave me put the Linear to shame).
My mistakes also don't change the fact that SAAB has refused to take responsibility for this intentional design flaw with the 2003 car I (and many others) purchased.
I'm glad that you're happy with your Arc. I'm also glad that SAAB at least partially fixed the flaw for 2004 production. BUT SINCE BY DOING SO THEY ARE TACITLY ADMITTING THAT THE 2003 SYSTEM IS IN REALITY A DEFECTIVE DESIGN, AND ISN'T THE WARRANTY ON 2003'S SUPPOSED TO COVER DEFECTS IN DESIGN AND MANUFACTURE?
You are free to speak highly of your experience with your Arc. I am free to speak about my experience with my Linear and my experience with SAAB USA. In 2003 purchasing a $30k-ish car shouldn't be a game of "gotcha" with a poor stereo or other any other aspect of the vehicle -- everything should be consistent with it's price class.
I can accept the first year squeeks and rattles; the stalling recall; having to return the vehicle for an OnStar installation that should have occurred before delivery. After all, those problems are or will eventually be fixed on my Linear. Because SAAB won't stand behind their design defect, the stereo won't be fixed. If they would fix my stereo I wouldn't be complaining -- I would chalk up the rest to first year glitches. But their refusal to fix the stereos on the 2003's displays their attitude and is the killer.
So yes I am going to continue to complain long and loudly about my unhappiness with my 9-3ss, and encourage everyone I can to learn from my mistake(s) and not purchase a SAAB.
Others who are happy with their SAAB's and experience with SAAB USA can voice their opinions.
Sorry to hear you are not happy with your Saab. Yeah.... you do have right to complain loudly. So I am going to say mine: "I LOVE MY SAAB!!" even though my right front and rear speakers not working since I picked up and some rattles occurred.
I compared my 2001 9-3 with the 03' & 04' 9-3SS. 9-3 SS seems to have better interior. If people think the plastic in a 9-3SS is GM style, please take a look at the old 9-3. My car has much more hard plastics than the new one. I tried the Linear & the Arc. The Arc is much better. I think the door and door handles in 9-3SS is much better than mine too. I really liked the new key. Several things I don't like about the 9-3SS are:
1. The leather seat is not as comfortable as mine. 2. The steering wheel and the trunk handle (not liked the 9-5's) were downgraded. 3. I got less feedback from the road. 4. Brake noise (Linear only)
I got several minor problems in the first year. After my dealer fixed them, the car seems to be quiet reliable. Maybe the initial quality of the car is not that good.
Even I have driven my car for 3 years, I still have to drive it. I really enjoy driving my car.
I don't remember all of the specifics, but in early production the "Launch" package was an option to the Linear that added SOME of the Arc stuff (because Arc wasn't yet available) -- not the more powerful engine, but 150w stereo over 75w base linear (150w still sucks); drivers power seat; automatic climate control ... that sort of thing. Think half-way between current Linear and Arc.
Tomw, I'd hate to see your reaction if you ever had a real problem. Your hyperbole (SAAB "lying" to you about a launch date; SAAB "screwing" you because of poor sterio speakers, etc.) diminishes the force of your post. Face it, you've done well in this world, work for yourself, and are able to lease a 30K "ish" import sedan (probably with a hefty business tax write off). Learn to enjoy what you have, change it with maybe $100 in new speakers, or just dump the SAAB in an early lease termination and move on.
I have a new '04 9-3 Linear(1,700 miles). I have noticed that for the last 30 days my brakes are really loud the last couple of seconds when I come to a complete stop. Not all the time. Here some days gone others. I called the dealer and talked to the service department. He said he was 99% sure it was just build-up on the brake pad. He recommended that I take the car up to 60 mph and hit the brake as if someone stepped out in front of the car. He said that will burn off the build up and I should be fine for a while. Does anyone have any opinion on my brake condition or the recommended solution? Thanks
The lying statement was not hyberbole. In February 2003 I emailed SAAB asking about the Arc's, because I knew I would rather have one if I could get one in time. Their response -- I still have the email -- was that Arc's wouldn't be available until June. Two weeks later on SAABnet I started reading posts by people saying that they just took delivery of an Arc. So when SAAB told me that they wouldn't be available until June they already had Arc's in port. Since of course SAAB had to know this, the only explanation is that they purposely misled people so that they could unload their remaining inventory of Linear's with Launch packages.
As for $100 to fix the stereo, I wish it were that simple. Besides the fact that on principle I shouldn't have to do anything, much less seek out a reputable stereo store, pay goog money to have them install speakers, only to lose my investment at the end of the lease. If SAAB would reimburse for the cost of improving the vehicle they own, that would be different (don't hold your breath).
While putting speakers in the rear deck would have to improve things, since essentially there are no speakers back there now, I'm not sure that would solve the problem -- the front speakers too have a grating / tinny / artificial / hollow sound -- so I suspect that the real problem is a design defect with the head unit; which in turn I believe is so integrated with the cars electronics that a stereo store could do nothing with it.
As for taking an early termination, you assume that I'm doing so well that I have money to throw around -- I don't. If SAAB would let me out of the lease without penalty, just letting me walk away, I'd be out there kicking tires today! But you and I both know that ain't gonna happen.
So unless SAAB decides to stand behind their products I'm stuck with a car without a stereo (for all practical purposes) until Feb 2006. Had they stood behind the car and done something with the stereo I would have chalked the whole thing up to a first year glitch that was eventually fixed ... and would have entertained going into my third SAAB down the road.
But obviously they are not going to stand behind their product, so my reluctant plan (barring some windfall of cash so I don't care about early termination penalties)is to finish out the lease -- and in the meantime extract what "pay back" I can by bad-mouthing the 9-3ss, and the brand, to every prospective buyer I come across -- and then move on to another brand, probably Acura.
Call it petty. Call it vindictive. Call it whatever you like. But before you do, go back and read the Edmunds review of the 9-3 where they talk about how bad the stereo is, and then ponder whether I am being too critical of it, and then ponder if I am being so unreasonable in expecting SAAB to rectify what to me -- and apparently to Edmunds -- is a material design defect.
Components: When we first flipped on the sound system in the new Saab 9-3, we were convinced that it couldn't be the completed factory system. After all, hadn't we been alerted by several Saab representatives that the vehicle we would be road testing was a "preproduction model," with all the ticks and faults that designation implies? "Surely," we said to ourselves, "Saab wouldn't put such a mediocre stereo system into a finished production vehicle — not Saab, a company renowned for the excellence of its sound systems. Certainly there must be some mistake. Saab wouldn't do this. Not Saab."
Imagine our surprise, then, when we contacted our local Saab factory rep and were assured that the stereo was, in fact, the finished system and that it would be debuting in the car across the nation. Here's the deal. The vehicle we reviewed, a Saab 9-3 Linear model, was optioned with the Linear Launch Package, which comes with a 150-watt, seven-speaker setup (Saab Entertainment 1) — without this package, the Linear has just a 70-watt amplifier. Those consumers wanting a better stereo should step up to the 9-3 Arc and Vector models, both of which contain a 300-watt, 13-speaker arrangement (Saab Entertainment 2). Our advice: Shell out for the better car and sound system. This one is a major disappointment.
A shame, too, since this system does have some nice features. The head unit, for instance, combines a wide topography with generous button spacing giving a great ergonomic feel. Pop-out dials for treble, bass, balance and fade provide further ease of use, plus a round, detented knob for volume is a snap to use. The system is rounded out with a six-disc, in-dash CD changer in the lower portion of the center stack, and steering wheel controls offer further ease of use with volume up-down and seek-scan.
All good so far. But the speakers won't win any awards. Although they are well positioned, with an array across the top of the dash that includes a centerfill midrange-tweet plus tweets in each corner, that's about all you get. A pair of 6.5-inch full-range drivers occupy the front doors, giving more midrange information to the listener, but scant little bass. Lastly, the world's worst and smallest full-range speakers, approximately three inches in diameter, are housed in the car's rear deck, firing upward into the cabin. Immediately adjacent to these little drivers are huge 6-by-9 cutouts with no speakers in them!
Performance: If you like midrange, you'll love this system. But if you like a little bass to go with your treble, you'll be sorely disappointed. This one sounded like a boom box on steroids — and not very good steroids, either. If the Saab engineers had gone just one step further and dropped a pair of 6-by-9 full-range drivers in the vacant cutouts in back, we'd probably be reporting a completely different story. As it is, this system will leave the consumer wanting more.
Best Feature: Ergonomic head unit.
Worst Feature: Extremely poor bass response.
Conclusion: If you listen to anything more than AM radio, you'll likely be disappointed in the sound system in the Saab 9-3 Linear. We strongly suggest you pay the extra money and get into an Arc or Vector model. Your ears will thank you, if not your pocketbook. — Scott Memmer
I do feel very sorry for those posts from who has bad experiences with 9-3ss. And I always worry about if anyone come to here and watch these bad only bad infos about this car, might be scared away. So I would like to share some of my good side of expereinces. I have 2003 9-3ss since Nov 15 2002. So it seems like the car is the first generaltion. At the seond of ownership I had sort of big accident with Builk under estimate speed 50MPH. This car was not only survived from that car accident and only cost other driver 1200 to fix the minor part broken(other driver's fault). Hard to image if that day I was driving Honda or Toyota or even Lexus... And until now day afetr over 25k miles there is no any rattle and losing part. To me, this car really rock. I will admit it the stero is not that good or even say it's really bad. But most of time I listen to audio books. with this 6-disks feature really help me a lots without changing the cd. Mine has lounch package and I do really love them. After I study how they were going to design and plan for the fresh new factory. I just cou;dnt wait for Arc come out and got the Linear as soon as I test drove it. And until now I still fully happy about this. I dont really like the wood panel anyway. So it's not bother me at all. If someone ask me what will I get today. Even Accura come out some new cars. Afetr I review them in person. I still choose thie car Saab 9-3 iwthout any hestiate. special in this price.
Re:Problems?[tomw#2433] Wish I monitored this site more often so my reply would be more timely...but none the less...What did you lease?The car that Sports car International called "The best car to ever car to come out of Trollhatten"or were you looking foe a boombox on wheels? Why didn't you simply call a SAAB dealer as to Arc/Vector availability?Do you honestly think you couldn't of pre-ordered the EXACT car you want. I took delivery of my '03 Vector on 04/02/03 and I LOVE IT!You might benefit by picking up a copy of this months "European Car"magazine where they wrap up a year-long extnded 24,000 mile test.You may find a slight difference of opinion from yours.Is the sound system as good as it could/should be...No,it's not.It's also nowhere near as bad as you describe.By the way...my credentials? 15 years as a professional sound engineer(tours with Prince,Heart,Bob Seger,Doobie Bros.to name a few)currently have $25k.plus invested in my home audio system.No brag,just fact. I think overall your post could be shortened to"WAAAH, WAAH!!!) they wrap up a year long
1) I didn't call a dealer about Ark availability out of concern that a dealer will promise availability just to make a sale -- it seemed (and still seems) to me that the authoritative source is the manufacturer / importer.
2) I didn't preorder because the early-out deal on my 2000 9-5 was premised on taking delivery out of stock, not on an ordered Arc.
3) With all due respect to your sound engineer status, I stand by my impression that the sound system is terrible -- as verified by Edmunds professional reviewer. I'm glad that you like your Vector, but note too that it has a much different sound system than the one I am complaining about. For instance, take out your rear speakers and replace them with the 3-inchers in my Linear and see what you think. (The last time I saw such small speakers was back in the 1970's - the mono radioninstallation kits for FIAT 128 sedans has similar speakers).
tomw, leaving aside (and unaddressed) the main thrust of my post, I have a technical question. Just for discussion sake, I wonder how much it would cost at dealer wholesale (check the ads in the classified section of any issue of Autoweek) to buy the Arc or Vector speakers that you don't have?
Incidentally there is a good piece in one of the auto rags I scanned tonite at Barnes and Noble on upgrading the sound system in a BMW530i. Seems the stock system in this 63K MSRP sedan needs $4700 before it is any good. The contact is Speaker Works in Orange, CA 714.997.9880.
Thanks for the suggestion, I do appreciate your effort to help.
I'm just not inclined to spend any money improving a leased car -- if it was owned and/or if I intended to buy it out at the end of the lease it would be different.
I know you think I'm overreacting. I'm not being a pig -- I don't expect an "audiophile" level system -- just one commensurate with the car's price range. In fact, I'd be satisfied if they'd make the stereo in my 9-3ss sound like the one in the Chevy Cavalier the dealer gave me when they were installing the OnStar.
The system in the 9-3ss Linear really is terrible -- is it too much to ask the factory to "upgrade" the system to sound at least as good as one in a Chevy Cavalier?
You know, I am totally agree that sound system in current 9-3 ss is not very bad set up. Don't know why they forgot to invole a good sound system into this re-design sport sedean which they bet all the hope and luck on it. Those engineers must have the same idea as my co-worker who think driving is an art. Need to put 100% mind on the driving. total enjoy the drive sence.
We may be in the market for a imported sedan soon. As a guy who likes to buy low and hold, I just love the rotten resale on SAABS. What other brand lets you pay just 50% of MSRP two years down the road? (Admittedly, unlike BMW etc. only Olaf himself pays within 7K of MSRP on a SAAB.) A quick look at Edmunds TMV figures puts a 2002 9-5 AERO at 20K or so. What does the board think, which would be a better investment/fun to drive: a used 9-3 SS or a used 9-5? Do I wait six months and pick up a used '03 9-3 or a '02 used 9-5. I think that they will be equally priced (although I guess I'll have to throw in some speakers into the 9-3).
Living in New England, I fear the AERO 17" wheels and lowered stance. I don't really want to have to replace the wheels or buy new 17" tires at $200 a pop after every pothole. I like everything else about the AERO (both 9-3 and 9-5). Naturally, I'm going to have to ditch the 17" wheels come winter and put on a Tire Rack package of 16" wheels/tires. How tacky would it be to run 16" wheels year round over our potholes and frost heaves?
I have the same situation on my 04 Arc. I was told that Saab is aware of the problem and that there is no fix, maybe in the future. I'll believe it when I see it. I believe it is a brake dust buildup problem because it does temporarily go away after a thorough car wash.
I am considering 36 month lease on a 2004 Saab 9-3 Linear with a number of options for a MSRP $32,200.00. Salesman offered up a price of $27,700.00 (add NJ sales tax 6%). Out of pocket expense total of $2,710.00 including $1,500.00 down as cap reduction. Payment to be $346.00/month. I do not remember the money factor (.00175? maybe)or the or the residual per centage. Are there any manufacture to dealer insentives I don't know about? Bottom line is this a good deal or is there better to be had? Also, looking to get into a car by end of this month.
Just a thought on leasing. I personally do not put anything but a minimal payment down on a lease car ($100-$200. My reasons are two-fold. One if you total the car you are out your down payment as the insurance pays off the lessor not the lessee. Two if you do not intend to buy the car at the end you are again out the down payment.
I would suggest that you take the down payment (cap reduction payment, a rose by any other name etc.) and use it to help defray the additional cost of the monthly payments if that is the only way to afford the car. In conclusion if you lease I would strongly urge you to put as little cash into the deal as you possibly can unless you truly expect to buy the car at the end, and even then I would not likely put any money in on the off chance you were in an accident, the car is totaled and you lose the money. Most leases take the insurance settlement and call the deal even in the event of a total pay out and you will lose any equity you had in the car.
rocharc, I'm certainly no expert on leasing and in fact think that they are bad deals for most people most of the time, unless they are subvented as SAAB does. But I think you present some fuzzy thinking. I'm surprised to hear that if one totals a leased car that the leasing company settles for whatever the payoff figure is from the insurance company and calls it a day. I don't think so. Most people are under water for the first two years because of the huge initial depreciation and for that reason GAP insurance protects against this problem short fall.
Secondly, I'm also surprised that you infer that a sizeable cap reduction wouldn't be counted toward a much lower lease payment. Sure, its true you wouldn't get the downpayment back at the end ("if you do not intend to buy the car...you are out the downpayment") but you would have amortized the downpayment over the term of the lease. So you would have already "gotten" it back in the form of a lower monthly payment.
You misunderstood me about the down payment not reducing the lease payment, it should reduce the payment I would really run the numbers and see if the reduction actually matched the amortization of the payment. given the low interest rates it is probably close to a wash as to how much the payment is reduced versus just taking 1/36 (or what ever the length of the lease is) and using that to help offset your monthly out of pocket.
On the insurance front, at least in NY (when you actually could lease a car but that is another story, now you buy the car with a balloon payment at the end, but the dealer has pre-agreed to take the car back with the usual wear and tear adjustments)the leasing documents were very specific about what happens in the event of a total accident and what insurance you had to have.
When I bough my '03 arc (which I love) the dealer did try to sell me "upside down" insurance in case I did total the car in the early days of the loan. I turned him down it is not a good deal if you can swing the difference until the loan balance crosses in your favor, I could so I did not take the insurance.
I agree with you that leasing is not a great deal unless you really have to have a car that you could not otherwise afford, but that is a lifestyle choice. I will admit to being somewhat fiscally conservative, so if I can't afford it I tend to do with out. I also tend to like to have my options, so if I could keep the money in reserve, why pay down the lease, just in case I need the cash for something else. But again that is me and what I do works for me and may not work for others. Gotta love diversity of opinions.
On another note I am getting the urge to add some performance mods that won't void the warranty, so I am open to suggestions. The car is 6 months old, 6300 miles.
Rocharc, thanks for the thoughtful response and the good sentiments in the next to last paragraph. I think though that perhaps we disagree on "upside down" insurance. Given that the upside down period will be quite lengthy (maybe 2 or more years?) and that the insurance company won't make you whole if the car is totaled or stolen in this period, wouldn't it make sense to buy the insurance? Sure, one can self insure, but why not lay off the risk in a pool? If my house burned down, I guess we could sell some emerging market bonds and rebuild it but why not insure?
The main difference in my mind is leasing versus buying. In the lease situation as I observed on the 2 cars I leased was that insurance would bail me out if the car was totaled (thankfully I did not ever need to verify this). On the loan side I actually tend to agree with you. I was planning on refinancing my car via home-equity shortly after I took out the loan. I used the dealer's profit on the loan to help sweeten my original deal. (Note I am on my second 03 arc which is in an earlier post.) Therefore the insurance offered was going to do me very little. I am now back to ownership mode and there I am a big believer in down payments and building equity as as soon as possible. I did a 100% finance on this car since I had no trade in (teenage kids need wheels too), otherwise I typically only borrow what I need and not the full value so the "upside down" insurance is not really necessary for me and again I stress for me. The concept is actually pretty interesting. Being somewhat cynical I would suspect the insurance is available form several sources and somehow I just don't think the dealer is going to offer the best price on this, but I could be wrong. And frankly I do not begrudge the dealership making a profit even from me. I understand the need to have several revenue streams to diversify income and protect from down turns in any one area.
Still thinking about performance mods (preferably affordable), the sun is actually shinning today in Rochester, makes me want to go for a drive.
Opel to develop all GM's mid-sized vehicles -paper Saturday May 29, 8:30 am ET
FRANKFURT, May 29 (Reuters) - Germany's Adam Opel will in future develop all of parent General Motors Corp's (NYSE:GM - News) mid-sized vehicles, Opel's chief executive was quoted as saying on Saturday.
As part of a restructuring of GM's European activities, Opel will assume a central role in the mid-sized class, Welt am Sonntag said in a pre-released article to be published on Sunday, citing Opel chief Carl-Peter Forster.
"In the past we developed vehicles of the same class in several areas of the world. We do not want to continue to do so; this will be more strongly consolidated," the paper quoted Forster as saying.
GM Europe, which alongside Opel includes the Saab and Vauxhall marques, is aiming to make profits from next year, helped by the revamp.
Forster said Opel should turn a profit this year.
It posted a 384 million euro ($470.7 million) operating loss in 2003 as weak sales, currency effects, discounts and an overhaul of its sales netwrok took their toll, but is counting on cost cuts and the new version of its Astra hatchback -- launched in March -- to drive profits this year.
I have a 93 Linear and when I try to turn on the engine from a cold start(sitting overnight). The engine always sputters and will usually turn off. I have to try this 2 or 3 times before it will turn on. After it turns on, I can turn it off and on repeatedly with no problems. The dealer has told me it has to do with the alcohol level of the gas in our area. Has anyone else had this problem?
My 2003 Linear just started doing the same thing this week. I was going to take it to the dealer but after reading your note remembered my wife filled the tank the other day (she never fills it). I always go to the same couple of gas stations so maybe I will fill it up again and see if the problem goes away. It has always started right up but now it sputters for a few seconds like it is running on a couple cylinders. Then it catches and runs fine and restarts fine the rest of the day.
My 9-3 developed an annoying "click" in the steering wheel some time ago. Whenever the wheel passes center, there's a muted click sound, and I can feel it through the wheel.
The vehicle was at the dealer today and they said there's some kind of TSB out for the problem. Unfortunately they have to order something that includes some adhesive (!?).
Anyone familiar with this TSB? And have had it applied? Did it fix the problem?
Sorry if this has already been answered. I searched and didn't find anything.
bought a 2003 9-3 arc, and I absolutely loved it...when it worked. I never thought a brand new car would have as many problems as I had. In the 6 months of owning this car, I had been to the dealer over 10 times. I finally had enough and contacted the corporate office and demanded they buy back my car. With no hesitation, they called back a couple days later and told me the great news. So here I am again, in search of another car, this time I will buy a Honda or Toyota...I guess I was just asking for problems buying a Saab. Of course everyone said don't buy it, but I figured I would give it a try...I love the exterior and interior design of the car, it had unbelievable horsepower, but overall, all of those qualities don't matter when you are never driving it. Thank heavens for loaner cars.
Saab are very reliable and durable cars, but stay away from the first model year !!! They usually have many little problems the first year, problems that eventually get fixed. Here in Belgium, reliability statitics show that Saab is number 3 in reliability after Toyota and Honda.CR did recommend Saabs for their reliability for a while and despite teething problems, the new 9-3 has an average reliability rating ( like the first year of the Toyota Camry).I suspect by netx year it'll be above average. I see so many Saabs with over 200K miles around here, I suspect they are very durable.
Sorry you had problems. Just keep in mind that all car companies have lemons. You'll have a less of a chance of getting one w/ Toyota and Honda. Hopefully the tradeioff in driving excitement is worth it for you.
My '03 Arc has been very reliable - some service for minor things, but nothing that was a show stopper. And the free loaners are nice when you DO need service. And it's an absolute blast to drive
I've had my 93 for about 18 months and have 21k on it already. Great car! But I have a question...has anyone had problems with the trip computer freezing on them? I pulled in to fuel up the other day and when I cleared the computer, it froze. The radio stations now appear on top of the message 'trip computer cleared'
The same thing happened to me awhile back. I brought it into my dealer and they updated the software for the trip computer and it hasn't happened since. Good luck!
I have a 2003 9-3 Arc... I was stopped at a light one day and saw what I thought was a piece of hair on the dashboard right above the center air vents and below the trip computer. I reached over to brush it away with my thumb, and the thin coating of material on the dasboard flaked off in my hand! It was actually a hairline crack in the material that I had seen, not a piece of hair. I brought the car to the dealer and the service manager looked at it and immediatley said they would replace the whole dashboard free of charge (still under warranty). He said he's never seen it happen before. Anyone???
Also, faded door handles... has anyone mentioned this to their dealer? I did and he had originally thought that it was a thin wax coating on the door handles. They later found out it was oxidation, and they will replace those as well with my dashboard. The thing is... I usually keep my car in a garage so it's not sitting in a LOT of sun.
I had mentioned to my dealer that I was about to try to Armor-all the door handles (but didn't) and he practicaly flipped out on me!! He said if they had found out I had Armor-all'd ANY part of the car, that part of the car would have the warranty void. something about all the chemicals in the solution. Has anyone heard this too??
No matter what though, I LOVE MY SAAB!!! I've been following the posts from TomW and his fiasco (or what he's making out to be a fiasco) and don't understand.
OH! and...to someeone that said they had problems with getting a loaner from their dealer, TELL your dealer in advance you need one. I always make a reservation for one and never have a problem. There's always going to be days they have them all reserved already, so don't go last minute.
I've had my Arc for a year. I have heard of the flaking dashboard (on another forum), but it hasn't happened w/ me. I am getting the door handles replaced next week - seems to be a common problem and they have replaced. As for Armor all, many people believe it does more harm than good because it's synthetic and can dry out what it's supposed to protect. Use something that's natural. I use Vinylex
You have to have the AUX input enabled by a dealer (most will do it). And you run a cable from the armrest (where there's a spot to put it) to hook up to the back of the stereo. For all the details, do an internet search on "saab 9-3 aux input" and you will find detailed instructions. I'd give you the links but I don't think I'm allowed
I am trying to make this decision. I really like certain things about both of them. I wish there was a car that just had the aspects I like about each in 1 car! I have ruled out the BMW, passat, maxima, acura, lexus, toyota, and volvo for various reasons. So here is my jag vs. saab analysis. Any thoughts would be appreciated:
saab v Jag x
(s+) softer more comfortable seats seats
(s+) bigger interior feel (though tech specs say I only have 1 more inch of headroom and everything else is the same... this is weird. I guess it's the positioning in the saab which is more comfortable and upright than the jag which is kinda low and tight)
(s-) front wheel drive feels slippery...what will this be like in the rain & snow (jag did amazing in big puddles - couldn't feel or hear them)
(s-) no nav
(s+) little road feedback... i can't stand bumpy cars
(s-) handling is airy and not heavy...not as in control as the jag
(s+) automatic gear shifting not noticeable at all - like the whole car is in 1 gear
(s+) seat back heats up too - not just butt like jag
(s-) blah interior with bad cupholders
(s+) can use ipod. no chance w/ jag.
(s+) probably wont be mugged in a saab but may be killed in a jag (live in a gentrifying part of the city)... (despite the small 2k price difference, jag screams "im loaded"... saabs are more nondescript to most)
I haven't heard of many people cross-shopping those two, but I guess they are officially in the same "class".
I would add the MPG comparison - the Saab is a clear winner. No V6 can compete here. (And 227 hp for a V6 is less than exciting). Add here the AWD, which conusmes more gas as well...
I just leased the Arc and am quite happy with the interior (i.e., can't see anything "blah" about it). The cupholders are surprisingly sturdy - that was my major concern at the outset - and with that issue addressed, they are cooler than any other cupholder you'll see. Conveniently retract out of sight... In any event, we are talking about choosing a $35K+ car here - would you really let the cupholder make the decision for you?
One last point: the X-type (or any Jag for that matter) says "I'm loaded, but I'm either over 50 or feel/drive like I'm over 50, whereas the Saab says "I can obviously afford a BMW or a Lexus, but am original enough to choose something more elegant" IMHO.
Forgot one thing - you didn't mention considering the G35 from Infiniti, and it sounds like it may be worthy of consideration - available AWD, RWD for handling if you're into that, NAV (again, available, not cheap), 260hp. All around probably more car than a 9-3 Arc for about the same money (not the G35x - that's a different car entirely), but I just couldn't get over driving a Nissan ))
Comments
Between 1971 and 1996 I worked for car dealerships, at the end with about 20 franchises. Everything from Ferrari and Lexus and Infiniti and Benz and BMW to Toyota to Dodge / Chrysler / Plymouth / Jeep and Cadillac / Olds / Chevy.
Over the decades it has been painfully clear that quality just isn't a priority with the domestic manufacturers, which as an American I find embarrassing and offensive. But facts are facts, and their poor record -- as shown over the years by JD Powers and Consumer Reports --verifies what I am saying.
GM has been notable over the years for knowingly putting out crap. For a while AMC was putting 4-cyl GM "Iron Duke" engines in Jeeps (a/k/a the Vega "check the gas and fill up the oil engine"). Customers were complaining about knocking noises in the morning. In response AMC forwarded copies of a GM tech bulletin saying that "piston slap in the morning is considered normal for this engine." We had a good laugh over that one! And besides Vegas, let us not forget X-cars, 8-6-4 engines, the Olds diesel upt through their numerous recalls so far this year. Clearly quality is not part of their corporate culture.
They were the unquestioned best in their market segment for about 15 years. That's what I would consider world class. If they weren't the world class minivan, who was? It took the Japanese companies a very long time to match them.
Hopefully they do their homework and find out that most of the issues with your bleeding edge '03 are no longer issues with the '04's, and give the car a fair shot
>>Marketing 101 -- good word of mouth is invaluable, bad word of mouth can break you and is repeated with far more frequency. Any reputable brand trying to increase its market share realizes this and endeavors to exceed expectations, not disappoint. Memo to SAAB: producing inferior products and treating customers the way GM has for 30 years is a formula for decreasing market share, not increasing it. <<
Market share is increasing, and there is a lot of positive word of mouth as well
I also admit that I have a negative attitude about the domestic manufacturers -- as I said before, as an American I am embarrassed that domestic auto manufacturers refuse to make world-class products (for thirty-plus years American cars have consistently lagged the Europeans and Japanese on quality. A run that long isn't by accident -- assuming that Detroit has the know-how, it means that they have chosen not to make world-class products).
That being said, that doesn't change the fact that the 9-3ss stereo is horrible -- and somebody signed off on that before it went into production, and so SAAB knowingly and deliberately put that crappy system into production. The squeeks (though the Japanese seem to avoid this in their first year cars) and the recall for stalling and the delay in OnStar installation are all first year glitches. The lousy stereo was an intentional design choice (the stereo in a Cavalier loaner they gave me put the Linear to shame).
My mistakes also don't change the fact that SAAB has refused to take responsibility for this intentional design flaw with the 2003 car I (and many others) purchased.
I'm glad that you're happy with your Arc. I'm also glad that SAAB at least partially fixed the flaw for 2004 production. BUT SINCE BY DOING SO THEY ARE TACITLY ADMITTING THAT THE 2003 SYSTEM IS IN REALITY A DEFECTIVE DESIGN, AND ISN'T THE WARRANTY ON 2003'S SUPPOSED TO COVER DEFECTS IN DESIGN AND MANUFACTURE?
You are free to speak highly of your experience with your Arc. I am free to speak about my experience with my Linear and my experience with SAAB USA. In 2003 purchasing a $30k-ish car shouldn't be a game of "gotcha" with a poor stereo or other any other aspect of the vehicle -- everything should be consistent with it's price class.
I can accept the first year squeeks and rattles; the stalling recall; having to return the vehicle for an OnStar installation that should have occurred before delivery. After all, those problems are or will eventually be fixed on my Linear. Because SAAB won't stand behind their design defect, the stereo won't be fixed. If they would fix my stereo I wouldn't be complaining -- I would chalk up the rest to first year glitches. But their refusal to fix the stereos on the 2003's displays their attitude and is the killer.
So yes I am going to continue to complain long and loudly about my unhappiness with my 9-3ss, and encourage everyone I can to learn from my mistake(s) and not purchase a SAAB.
Others who are happy with their SAAB's and experience with SAAB USA can voice their opinions.
Then let the buying public decide.
"I LOVE MY SAAB!!" even though my right front and rear speakers not working since I picked up and some rattles occurred.
that's it
bye
1. The leather seat is not as comfortable as mine.
2. The steering wheel and the trunk handle (not liked the 9-5's) were downgraded.
3. I got less feedback from the road.
4. Brake noise (Linear only)
I got several minor problems in the first year. After my dealer fixed them, the car seems to be quiet reliable. Maybe the initial quality of the car is not that good.
Even I have driven my car for 3 years, I still have to drive it. I really enjoy driving my car.
Thanks
As for $100 to fix the stereo, I wish it were that simple. Besides the fact that on principle I shouldn't have to do anything, much less seek out a reputable stereo store, pay goog money to have them install speakers, only to lose my investment at the end of the lease. If SAAB would reimburse for the cost of improving the vehicle they own, that would be different (don't hold your breath).
While putting speakers in the rear deck would have to improve things, since essentially there are no speakers back there now, I'm not sure that would solve the problem -- the front speakers too have a grating / tinny / artificial / hollow sound -- so I suspect that the real problem is a design defect with the head unit; which in turn I believe is so integrated with the cars electronics that a stereo store could do nothing with it.
As for taking an early termination, you assume that I'm doing so well that I have money to throw around -- I don't. If SAAB would let me out of the lease without penalty, just letting me walk away, I'd be out there kicking tires today! But you and I both know that ain't gonna happen.
So unless SAAB decides to stand behind their products I'm stuck with a car without a stereo (for all practical purposes) until Feb 2006. Had they stood behind the car and done something with the stereo I would have chalked the whole thing up to a first year glitch that was eventually fixed ... and would have entertained going into my third SAAB down the road.
But obviously they are not going to stand behind their product, so my reluctant plan (barring some windfall of cash so I don't care about early termination penalties)is to finish out the lease -- and in the meantime extract what "pay back" I can by bad-mouthing the 9-3ss, and the brand, to every prospective buyer I come across -- and then move on to another brand, probably Acura.
Call it petty. Call it vindictive. Call it whatever you like. But before you do, go back and read the Edmunds review of the 9-3 where they talk about how bad the stereo is, and then ponder whether I am being too critical of it, and then ponder if I am being so unreasonable in expecting SAAB to rectify what to me -- and apparently to Edmunds -- is a material design defect.
Full Test: 2003 Saab 9-3
Stereo Evaluation
By Erin Riches
Date posted: 11-26-2002
System Score: 5.0
Components: When we first flipped on the sound system in the new Saab 9-3, we were convinced that it couldn't be the completed factory system. After all, hadn't we been alerted by several Saab representatives that the vehicle we would be road testing was a "preproduction model," with all the ticks and faults that designation implies? "Surely," we said to ourselves, "Saab wouldn't put such a mediocre stereo system into a finished production vehicle — not Saab, a company renowned for the excellence of its sound systems. Certainly there must be some mistake. Saab wouldn't do this. Not Saab."
Imagine our surprise, then, when we contacted our local Saab factory rep and were assured that the stereo was, in fact, the finished system and that it would be debuting in the car across the nation. Here's the deal. The vehicle we reviewed, a Saab 9-3 Linear model, was optioned with the Linear Launch Package, which comes with a 150-watt, seven-speaker setup (Saab Entertainment 1) — without this package, the Linear has just a 70-watt amplifier. Those consumers wanting a better stereo should step up to the 9-3 Arc and Vector models, both of which contain a 300-watt, 13-speaker arrangement (Saab Entertainment 2). Our advice: Shell out for the better car and sound system. This one is a major disappointment.
A shame, too, since this system does have some nice features. The head unit, for instance, combines a wide topography with generous button spacing giving a great ergonomic feel. Pop-out dials for treble, bass, balance and fade provide further ease of use, plus a round, detented knob for volume is a snap to use. The system is rounded out with a six-disc, in-dash CD changer in the lower portion of the center stack, and steering wheel controls offer further ease of use with volume up-down and seek-scan.
All good so far. But the speakers won't win any awards. Although they are well positioned, with an array across the top of the dash that includes a centerfill midrange-tweet plus tweets in each corner, that's about all you get. A pair of 6.5-inch full-range drivers occupy the front doors, giving more midrange information to the listener, but scant little bass. Lastly, the world's worst and smallest full-range speakers, approximately three inches in diameter, are housed in the car's rear deck, firing upward into the cabin. Immediately adjacent to these little drivers are huge 6-by-9 cutouts with no speakers in them!
Performance: If you like midrange, you'll love this system. But if you like a little bass to go with your treble, you'll be sorely disappointed. This one sounded like a boom box on steroids — and not very good steroids, either. If the Saab engineers had gone just one step further and dropped a pair of 6-by-9 full-range drivers in the vacant cutouts in back, we'd probably be reporting a completely different story. As it is, this system will leave the consumer wanting more.
Best Feature: Ergonomic head unit.
Worst Feature: Extremely poor bass response.
Conclusion: If you listen to anything more than AM radio, you'll likely be disappointed in the sound system in the Saab 9-3 Linear. We strongly suggest you pay the extra money and get into an Arc or Vector model. Your ears will thank you, if not your pocketbook. — Scott Memmer
Wish I monitored this site more often so my reply would be more timely...but none the less...What did you lease?The car that Sports
car International called "The best car to ever car to come out of
Trollhatten"or were you looking foe a boombox on wheels? Why didn't
you simply call a SAAB dealer as to Arc/Vector availability?Do you
honestly think you couldn't of pre-ordered the EXACT car you want.
I took delivery of my '03 Vector on 04/02/03 and I LOVE IT!You might
benefit by picking up a copy of this months "European Car"magazine where they wrap up a year-long extnded 24,000 mile test.You may find a slight difference of opinion from yours.Is the sound system as good
as it could/should be...No,it's not.It's also nowhere near as bad as
you describe.By the way...my credentials? 15 years as a professional
sound engineer(tours with Prince,Heart,Bob Seger,Doobie Bros.to name
a few)currently have $25k.plus invested in my home audio system.No
brag,just fact. I think overall your post could be shortened to"WAAAH,
WAAH!!!)
they wrap up a year long
2) I didn't preorder because the early-out deal on my 2000 9-5 was premised on taking delivery out of stock, not on an ordered Arc.
3) With all due respect to your sound engineer status, I stand by my impression that the sound system is terrible -- as verified by Edmunds professional reviewer. I'm glad that you like your Vector, but note too that it has a much different sound system than the one I am complaining about. For instance, take out your rear speakers and replace them with the 3-inchers in my Linear and see what you think. (The last time I saw such small speakers was back in the 1970's - the mono radioninstallation kits for FIAT 128 sedans has similar speakers).
Incidentally there is a good piece in one of the auto rags I scanned tonite at Barnes and Noble on upgrading the sound system in a BMW530i. Seems the stock system in this 63K MSRP sedan needs $4700 before it is any good. The contact is Speaker Works in Orange, CA 714.997.9880.
I'm just not inclined to spend any money improving a leased car -- if it was owned and/or if I intended to buy it out at the end of the lease it would be different.
I know you think I'm overreacting. I'm not being a pig -- I don't expect an "audiophile" level system -- just one commensurate with the car's price range. In fact, I'd be satisfied if they'd make the stereo in my 9-3ss sound like the one in the Chevy Cavalier the dealer gave me when they were installing the OnStar.
The system in the 9-3ss Linear really is terrible -- is it too much to ask the factory to "upgrade" the system to sound at least as good as one in a Chevy Cavalier?
Living in New England, I fear the AERO 17" wheels and lowered stance. I don't really want to have to replace the wheels or buy new 17" tires at $200 a pop after every pothole. I like everything else about the AERO (both 9-3 and 9-5). Naturally, I'm going to have to ditch the 17" wheels come winter and put on a Tire Rack package of 16" wheels/tires. How tacky would it be to run 16" wheels year round over our potholes and frost heaves?
http://www2.saabusa.com/leasen/default.asp?m=93&t=l&src=
$269/mo with $2995 down on an MSRP of $30,570 for 24 mos. It seems like a very aggressive program.
IIRC earlier this year 9-5 Linear base models were going for $299/mo.
Good Luck.
One if you total the car you are out your down payment as the insurance pays off the lessor not the lessee.
Two if you do not intend to buy the car at the end you are again out the down payment.
I would suggest that you take the down payment (cap reduction payment, a rose by any other name etc.) and use it to help defray the additional cost of the monthly payments if that is the only way to afford the car. In conclusion if you lease I would strongly urge you to put as little cash into the deal as you possibly can unless you truly expect to buy the car at the end, and even then I would not likely put any money in on the off chance you were in an accident, the car is totaled and you lose the money. Most leases take the insurance settlement and call the deal even in the event of a total pay out and you will lose any equity you had in the car.
Secondly, I'm also surprised that you infer that a sizeable cap reduction wouldn't be counted toward a much lower lease payment. Sure, its true you wouldn't get the downpayment back at the end ("if you do not intend to buy the car...you are out the downpayment") but you would have amortized the downpayment over the term of the lease. So you would have already "gotten" it back in the form of a lower monthly payment.
On the insurance front, at least in NY (when you actually could lease a car but that is another story, now you buy the car with a balloon payment at the end, but the dealer has pre-agreed to take the car back with the usual wear and tear adjustments)the leasing documents were very specific about what happens in the event of a total accident and what insurance you had to have.
When I bough my '03 arc (which I love) the dealer did try to sell me "upside down" insurance in case I did total the car in the early days of the loan. I turned him down it is not a good deal if you can swing the difference until the loan balance crosses in your favor, I could so I did not take the insurance.
I agree with you that leasing is not a great deal unless you really have to have a car that you could not otherwise afford, but that is a lifestyle choice. I will admit to being somewhat fiscally conservative, so if I can't afford it I tend to do with out. I also tend to like to have my options, so if I could keep the money in reserve, why pay down the lease, just in case I need the cash for something else. But again that is me and what I do works for me and may not work for others. Gotta love diversity of opinions.
On another note I am getting the urge to add some performance mods that won't void the warranty, so I am open to suggestions. The car is 6 months old, 6300 miles.
Still thinking about performance mods (preferably affordable), the sun is actually shinning today in Rochester, makes me want to go for a drive.
Saturday May 29, 8:30 am ET
FRANKFURT, May 29 (Reuters) - Germany's Adam Opel will in future develop all of parent General Motors Corp's (NYSE:GM - News) mid-sized vehicles, Opel's chief executive was quoted as saying on Saturday.
As part of a restructuring of GM's European activities, Opel will assume a central role in the mid-sized class, Welt am Sonntag said in a pre-released article to be published on Sunday, citing Opel chief Carl-Peter Forster.
"In the past we developed vehicles of the same class in several areas of the world. We do not want to continue to do so; this will be more strongly consolidated," the paper quoted Forster as saying.
GM Europe, which alongside Opel includes the Saab and Vauxhall marques, is aiming to make profits from next year, helped by the revamp.
Forster said Opel should turn a profit this year.
It posted a 384 million euro ($470.7 million) operating loss in 2003 as weak sales, currency effects, discounts and an overhaul of its sales netwrok took their toll, but is counting on cost cuts and the new version of its Astra hatchback -- launched in March -- to drive profits this year.
I have had way to many problems with this car. It is the lowest quality car I have ever driven.
Taygeorge5288@yahoo.com
Posting your email address on a public web page is a very bad idea - unless you will enjoy being innundated with spam.
A better idea is to make your address public in your profile. That way only Town Hall members can see it, and the spam bots cannot pick it up.
A couple of you might want to delete your messages and repost with that in mind.
Hope this helps.
The vehicle was at the dealer today and they said there's some kind of TSB out for the problem. Unfortunately they have to order something that includes some adhesive (!?).
Anyone familiar with this TSB? And have had it applied? Did it fix the problem?
Sorry if this has already been answered. I searched and didn't find anything.
Thanks!
Good luck to Saab owners...I am finally free!!!
I see so many Saabs with over 200K miles around here, I suspect they are very durable.
My '03 Arc has been very reliable - some service for minor things, but nothing that was a show stopper. And the free loaners are nice when you DO need service. And it's an absolute blast to drive
I have a 2003 9-3 Arc...
I was stopped at a light one day and saw what I thought was a piece of hair on the dashboard right above the center air vents and below the trip computer. I reached over to brush it away with my thumb, and the thin coating of material on the dasboard flaked off in my hand! It was actually a hairline crack in the material that I had seen, not a piece of hair. I brought the car to the dealer and the service manager looked at it and immediatley said they would replace the whole dashboard free of charge (still under warranty). He said he's never seen it happen before. Anyone???
Also, faded door handles... has anyone mentioned this to their dealer? I did and he had originally thought that it was a thin wax coating on the door handles. They later found out it was oxidation, and they will replace those as well with my dashboard. The thing is... I usually keep my car in a garage so it's not sitting in a LOT of sun.
I had mentioned to my dealer that I was about to try to Armor-all the door handles (but didn't) and he practicaly flipped out on me!! He said if they had found out I had Armor-all'd ANY part of the car, that part of the car would have the warranty void. something about all the chemicals in the solution. Has anyone heard this too??
No matter what though, I LOVE MY SAAB!!! I've been following the posts from TomW and his fiasco (or what he's making out to be a fiasco) and don't understand.
OH! and...to someeone that said they had problems with getting a loaner from their dealer, TELL your dealer in advance you need one. I always make a reservation for one and never have a problem. There's always going to be days they have them all reserved already, so don't go last minute.
Any of you know how to attach an ipod to the 9-3?
saab v Jag x
(s+) softer more comfortable seats seats
(s+) bigger interior feel (though tech specs say I only have 1 more inch of headroom and everything else is the same... this is weird. I guess it's the positioning in the saab which is more comfortable and upright than the jag which is kinda low and tight)
(s-) front wheel drive feels slippery...what will this be like in the rain & snow (jag did amazing in big puddles - couldn't feel or hear them)
(s-) no nav
(s+) little road feedback... i can't stand bumpy cars
(s-) handling is airy and not heavy...not as in control as the jag
(s+) automatic gear shifting not noticeable at all - like the whole car is in 1 gear
(s+) seat back heats up too - not just butt like jag
(s-) blah interior with bad cupholders
(s+) can use ipod. no chance w/ jag.
(s+) probably wont be mugged in a saab but may be killed in a jag (live in a gentrifying part of the city)... (despite the small 2k price difference, jag screams "im loaded"... saabs are more nondescript to most)
(s+) better stereo than jag
210 hp 4L turbo vs. 227 hp 3.0 L V6
I would add the MPG comparison - the Saab is a clear winner. No V6 can compete here. (And 227 hp for a V6 is less than exciting). Add here the AWD, which conusmes more gas as well...
I just leased the Arc and am quite happy with the interior (i.e., can't see anything "blah" about it). The cupholders are surprisingly sturdy - that was my major concern at the outset - and with that issue addressed, they are cooler than any other cupholder you'll see. Conveniently retract out of sight... In any event, we are talking about choosing a $35K+ car here - would you really let the cupholder make the decision for you?
One last point: the X-type (or any Jag for that matter) says "I'm loaded, but I'm either over 50 or feel/drive like I'm over 50, whereas the Saab says "I can obviously afford a BMW or a Lexus, but am original enough to choose something more elegant" IMHO.