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Between 1971 and 1996 I worked for car dealerships, at the end with about 20 franchises. Everything from Ferrari and Lexus and Infiniti and Benz and BMW to Toyota to Dodge / Chrysler / Plymouth / Jeep and Cadillac / Olds / Chevy.
Over the decades it has been painfully clear that quality just isn't a priority with the domestic manufacturers, which as an American I find embarrassing and offensive. But facts are facts, and their poor record -- as shown over the years by JD Powers and Consumer Reports --verifies what I am saying.
GM has been notable over the years for knowingly putting out crap. For a while AMC was putting 4-cyl GM "Iron Duke" engines in Jeeps (a/k/a the Vega "check the gas and fill up the oil engine"). Customers were complaining about knocking noises in the morning. In response AMC forwarded copies of a GM tech bulletin saying that "piston slap in the morning is considered normal for this engine." We had a good laugh over that one! And besides Vegas, let us not forget X-cars, 8-6-4 engines, the Olds diesel upt through their numerous recalls so far this year. Clearly quality is not part of their corporate culture.
They were the unquestioned best in their market segment for about 15 years. That's what I would consider world class. If they weren't the world class minivan, who was? It took the Japanese companies a very long time to match them.
Hopefully they do their homework and find out that most of the issues with your bleeding edge '03 are no longer issues with the '04's, and give the car a fair shot
>>Marketing 101 -- good word of mouth is invaluable, bad word of mouth can break you and is repeated with far more frequency. Any reputable brand trying to increase its market share realizes this and endeavors to exceed expectations, not disappoint. Memo to SAAB: producing inferior products and treating customers the way GM has for 30 years is a formula for decreasing market share, not increasing it. <<
Market share is increasing, and there is a lot of positive word of mouth as well
I also admit that I have a negative attitude about the domestic manufacturers -- as I said before, as an American I am embarrassed that domestic auto manufacturers refuse to make world-class products (for thirty-plus years American cars have consistently lagged the Europeans and Japanese on quality. A run that long isn't by accident -- assuming that Detroit has the know-how, it means that they have chosen not to make world-class products).
That being said, that doesn't change the fact that the 9-3ss stereo is horrible -- and somebody signed off on that before it went into production, and so SAAB knowingly and deliberately put that crappy system into production. The squeeks (though the Japanese seem to avoid this in their first year cars) and the recall for stalling and the delay in OnStar installation are all first year glitches. The lousy stereo was an intentional design choice (the stereo in a Cavalier loaner they gave me put the Linear to shame).
My mistakes also don't change the fact that SAAB has refused to take responsibility for this intentional design flaw with the 2003 car I (and many others) purchased.
I'm glad that you're happy with your Arc. I'm also glad that SAAB at least partially fixed the flaw for 2004 production. BUT SINCE BY DOING SO THEY ARE TACITLY ADMITTING THAT THE 2003 SYSTEM IS IN REALITY A DEFECTIVE DESIGN, AND ISN'T THE WARRANTY ON 2003'S SUPPOSED TO COVER DEFECTS IN DESIGN AND MANUFACTURE?
You are free to speak highly of your experience with your Arc. I am free to speak about my experience with my Linear and my experience with SAAB USA. In 2003 purchasing a $30k-ish car shouldn't be a game of "gotcha" with a poor stereo or other any other aspect of the vehicle -- everything should be consistent with it's price class.
I can accept the first year squeeks and rattles; the stalling recall; having to return the vehicle for an OnStar installation that should have occurred before delivery. After all, those problems are or will eventually be fixed on my Linear. Because SAAB won't stand behind their design defect, the stereo won't be fixed. If they would fix my stereo I wouldn't be complaining -- I would chalk up the rest to first year glitches. But their refusal to fix the stereos on the 2003's displays their attitude and is the killer.
So yes I am going to continue to complain long and loudly about my unhappiness with my 9-3ss, and encourage everyone I can to learn from my mistake(s) and not purchase a SAAB.
Others who are happy with their SAAB's and experience with SAAB USA can voice their opinions.
Then let the buying public decide.
"I LOVE MY SAAB!!" even though my right front and rear speakers not working since I picked up and some rattles occurred.
that's it
bye
1. The leather seat is not as comfortable as mine.
2. The steering wheel and the trunk handle (not liked the 9-5's) were downgraded.
3. I got less feedback from the road.
4. Brake noise (Linear only)
I got several minor problems in the first year. After my dealer fixed them, the car seems to be quiet reliable. Maybe the initial quality of the car is not that good.
Even I have driven my car for 3 years, I still have to drive it. I really enjoy driving my car.
Thanks
As for $100 to fix the stereo, I wish it were that simple. Besides the fact that on principle I shouldn't have to do anything, much less seek out a reputable stereo store, pay goog money to have them install speakers, only to lose my investment at the end of the lease. If SAAB would reimburse for the cost of improving the vehicle they own, that would be different (don't hold your breath).
While putting speakers in the rear deck would have to improve things, since essentially there are no speakers back there now, I'm not sure that would solve the problem -- the front speakers too have a grating / tinny / artificial / hollow sound -- so I suspect that the real problem is a design defect with the head unit; which in turn I believe is so integrated with the cars electronics that a stereo store could do nothing with it.
As for taking an early termination, you assume that I'm doing so well that I have money to throw around -- I don't. If SAAB would let me out of the lease without penalty, just letting me walk away, I'd be out there kicking tires today! But you and I both know that ain't gonna happen.
So unless SAAB decides to stand behind their products I'm stuck with a car without a stereo (for all practical purposes) until Feb 2006. Had they stood behind the car and done something with the stereo I would have chalked the whole thing up to a first year glitch that was eventually fixed ... and would have entertained going into my third SAAB down the road.
But obviously they are not going to stand behind their product, so my reluctant plan (barring some windfall of cash so I don't care about early termination penalties)is to finish out the lease -- and in the meantime extract what "pay back" I can by bad-mouthing the 9-3ss, and the brand, to every prospective buyer I come across -- and then move on to another brand, probably Acura.
Call it petty. Call it vindictive. Call it whatever you like. But before you do, go back and read the Edmunds review of the 9-3 where they talk about how bad the stereo is, and then ponder whether I am being too critical of it, and then ponder if I am being so unreasonable in expecting SAAB to rectify what to me -- and apparently to Edmunds -- is a material design defect.
Full Test: 2003 Saab 9-3
Stereo Evaluation
By Erin Riches
Date posted: 11-26-2002
System Score: 5.0
Components: When we first flipped on the sound system in the new Saab 9-3, we were convinced that it couldn't be the completed factory system. After all, hadn't we been alerted by several Saab representatives that the vehicle we would be road testing was a "preproduction model," with all the ticks and faults that designation implies? "Surely," we said to ourselves, "Saab wouldn't put such a mediocre stereo system into a finished production vehicle — not Saab, a company renowned for the excellence of its sound systems. Certainly there must be some mistake. Saab wouldn't do this. Not Saab."
Imagine our surprise, then, when we contacted our local Saab factory rep and were assured that the stereo was, in fact, the finished system and that it would be debuting in the car across the nation. Here's the deal. The vehicle we reviewed, a Saab 9-3 Linear model, was optioned with the Linear Launch Package, which comes with a 150-watt, seven-speaker setup (Saab Entertainment 1) — without this package, the Linear has just a 70-watt amplifier. Those consumers wanting a better stereo should step up to the 9-3 Arc and Vector models, both of which contain a 300-watt, 13-speaker arrangement (Saab Entertainment 2). Our advice: Shell out for the better car and sound system. This one is a major disappointment.
A shame, too, since this system does have some nice features. The head unit, for instance, combines a wide topography with generous button spacing giving a great ergonomic feel. Pop-out dials for treble, bass, balance and fade provide further ease of use, plus a round, detented knob for volume is a snap to use. The system is rounded out with a six-disc, in-dash CD changer in the lower portion of the center stack, and steering wheel controls offer further ease of use with volume up-down and seek-scan.
All good so far. But the speakers won't win any awards. Although they are well positioned, with an array across the top of the dash that includes a centerfill midrange-tweet plus tweets in each corner, that's about all you get. A pair of 6.5-inch full-range drivers occupy the front doors, giving more midrange information to the listener, but scant little bass. Lastly, the world's worst and smallest full-range speakers, approximately three inches in diameter, are housed in the car's rear deck, firing upward into the cabin. Immediately adjacent to these little drivers are huge 6-by-9 cutouts with no speakers in them!
Performance: If you like midrange, you'll love this system. But if you like a little bass to go with your treble, you'll be sorely disappointed. This one sounded like a boom box on steroids — and not very good steroids, either. If the Saab engineers had gone just one step further and dropped a pair of 6-by-9 full-range drivers in the vacant cutouts in back, we'd probably be reporting a completely different story. As it is, this system will leave the consumer wanting more.
Best Feature: Ergonomic head unit.
Worst Feature: Extremely poor bass response.
Conclusion: If you listen to anything more than AM radio, you'll likely be disappointed in the sound system in the Saab 9-3 Linear. We strongly suggest you pay the extra money and get into an Arc or Vector model. Your ears will thank you, if not your pocketbook. — Scott Memmer
Wish I monitored this site more often so my reply would be more timely...but none the less...What did you lease?The car that Sports
car International called "The best car to ever car to come out of
Trollhatten"or were you looking foe a boombox on wheels? Why didn't
you simply call a SAAB dealer as to Arc/Vector availability?Do you
honestly think you couldn't of pre-ordered the EXACT car you want.
I took delivery of my '03 Vector on 04/02/03 and I LOVE IT!You might
benefit by picking up a copy of this months "European Car"magazine where they wrap up a year-long extnded 24,000 mile test.You may find a slight difference of opinion from yours.Is the sound system as good
as it could/should be...No,it's not.It's also nowhere near as bad as
you describe.By the way...my credentials? 15 years as a professional
sound engineer(tours with Prince,Heart,Bob Seger,Doobie Bros.to name
a few)currently have $25k.plus invested in my home audio system.No
brag,just fact. I think overall your post could be shortened to"WAAAH,
WAAH!!!)
they wrap up a year long
2) I didn't preorder because the early-out deal on my 2000 9-5 was premised on taking delivery out of stock, not on an ordered Arc.
3) With all due respect to your sound engineer status, I stand by my impression that the sound system is terrible -- as verified by Edmunds professional reviewer. I'm glad that you like your Vector, but note too that it has a much different sound system than the one I am complaining about. For instance, take out your rear speakers and replace them with the 3-inchers in my Linear and see what you think. (The last time I saw such small speakers was back in the 1970's - the mono radioninstallation kits for FIAT 128 sedans has similar speakers).
Incidentally there is a good piece in one of the auto rags I scanned tonite at Barnes and Noble on upgrading the sound system in a BMW530i. Seems the stock system in this 63K MSRP sedan needs $4700 before it is any good. The contact is Speaker Works in Orange, CA 714.997.9880.
I'm just not inclined to spend any money improving a leased car -- if it was owned and/or if I intended to buy it out at the end of the lease it would be different.
I know you think I'm overreacting. I'm not being a pig -- I don't expect an "audiophile" level system -- just one commensurate with the car's price range. In fact, I'd be satisfied if they'd make the stereo in my 9-3ss sound like the one in the Chevy Cavalier the dealer gave me when they were installing the OnStar.
The system in the 9-3ss Linear really is terrible -- is it too much to ask the factory to "upgrade" the system to sound at least as good as one in a Chevy Cavalier?
Living in New England, I fear the AERO 17" wheels and lowered stance. I don't really want to have to replace the wheels or buy new 17" tires at $200 a pop after every pothole. I like everything else about the AERO (both 9-3 and 9-5). Naturally, I'm going to have to ditch the 17" wheels come winter and put on a Tire Rack package of 16" wheels/tires. How tacky would it be to run 16" wheels year round over our potholes and frost heaves?
http://www2.saabusa.com/leasen/default.asp?m=93&t=l&src=
$269/mo with $2995 down on an MSRP of $30,570 for 24 mos. It seems like a very aggressive program.
IIRC earlier this year 9-5 Linear base models were going for $299/mo.
Good Luck.
One if you total the car you are out your down payment as the insurance pays off the lessor not the lessee.
Two if you do not intend to buy the car at the end you are again out the down payment.
I would suggest that you take the down payment (cap reduction payment, a rose by any other name etc.) and use it to help defray the additional cost of the monthly payments if that is the only way to afford the car. In conclusion if you lease I would strongly urge you to put as little cash into the deal as you possibly can unless you truly expect to buy the car at the end, and even then I would not likely put any money in on the off chance you were in an accident, the car is totaled and you lose the money. Most leases take the insurance settlement and call the deal even in the event of a total pay out and you will lose any equity you had in the car.
Secondly, I'm also surprised that you infer that a sizeable cap reduction wouldn't be counted toward a much lower lease payment. Sure, its true you wouldn't get the downpayment back at the end ("if you do not intend to buy the car...you are out the downpayment") but you would have amortized the downpayment over the term of the lease. So you would have already "gotten" it back in the form of a lower monthly payment.
On the insurance front, at least in NY (when you actually could lease a car but that is another story, now you buy the car with a balloon payment at the end, but the dealer has pre-agreed to take the car back with the usual wear and tear adjustments)the leasing documents were very specific about what happens in the event of a total accident and what insurance you had to have.
When I bough my '03 arc (which I love) the dealer did try to sell me "upside down" insurance in case I did total the car in the early days of the loan. I turned him down it is not a good deal if you can swing the difference until the loan balance crosses in your favor, I could so I did not take the insurance.
I agree with you that leasing is not a great deal unless you really have to have a car that you could not otherwise afford, but that is a lifestyle choice. I will admit to being somewhat fiscally conservative, so if I can't afford it I tend to do with out. I also tend to like to have my options, so if I could keep the money in reserve, why pay down the lease, just in case I need the cash for something else. But again that is me and what I do works for me and may not work for others. Gotta love diversity of opinions.
On another note I am getting the urge to add some performance mods that won't void the warranty, so I am open to suggestions. The car is 6 months old, 6300 miles.
Still thinking about performance mods (preferably affordable), the sun is actually shinning today in Rochester, makes me want to go for a drive.
Saturday May 29, 8:30 am ET
FRANKFURT, May 29 (Reuters) - Germany's Adam Opel will in future develop all of parent General Motors Corp's (NYSE:GM - News) mid-sized vehicles, Opel's chief executive was quoted as saying on Saturday.
As part of a restructuring of GM's European activities, Opel will assume a central role in the mid-sized class, Welt am Sonntag said in a pre-released article to be published on Sunday, citing Opel chief Carl-Peter Forster.
"In the past we developed vehicles of the same class in several areas of the world. We do not want to continue to do so; this will be more strongly consolidated," the paper quoted Forster as saying.
GM Europe, which alongside Opel includes the Saab and Vauxhall marques, is aiming to make profits from next year, helped by the revamp.
Forster said Opel should turn a profit this year.
It posted a 384 million euro ($470.7 million) operating loss in 2003 as weak sales, currency effects, discounts and an overhaul of its sales netwrok took their toll, but is counting on cost cuts and the new version of its Astra hatchback -- launched in March -- to drive profits this year.
I have had way to many problems with this car. It is the lowest quality car I have ever driven.
Taygeorge5288@yahoo.com
Posting your email address on a public web page is a very bad idea - unless you will enjoy being innundated with spam.
A better idea is to make your address public in your profile. That way only Town Hall members can see it, and the spam bots cannot pick it up.
A couple of you might want to delete your messages and repost with that in mind.
Hope this helps.
The vehicle was at the dealer today and they said there's some kind of TSB out for the problem. Unfortunately they have to order something that includes some adhesive (!?).
Anyone familiar with this TSB? And have had it applied? Did it fix the problem?
Sorry if this has already been answered. I searched and didn't find anything.
Thanks!
Good luck to Saab owners...I am finally free!!!
I see so many Saabs with over 200K miles around here, I suspect they are very durable.
My '03 Arc has been very reliable - some service for minor things, but nothing that was a show stopper. And the free loaners are nice when you DO need service. And it's an absolute blast to drive
I have a 2003 9-3 Arc...
I was stopped at a light one day and saw what I thought was a piece of hair on the dashboard right above the center air vents and below the trip computer. I reached over to brush it away with my thumb, and the thin coating of material on the dasboard flaked off in my hand! It was actually a hairline crack in the material that I had seen, not a piece of hair. I brought the car to the dealer and the service manager looked at it and immediatley said they would replace the whole dashboard free of charge (still under warranty). He said he's never seen it happen before. Anyone???
Also, faded door handles... has anyone mentioned this to their dealer? I did and he had originally thought that it was a thin wax coating on the door handles. They later found out it was oxidation, and they will replace those as well with my dashboard. The thing is... I usually keep my car in a garage so it's not sitting in a LOT of sun.
I had mentioned to my dealer that I was about to try to Armor-all the door handles (but didn't) and he practicaly flipped out on me!! He said if they had found out I had Armor-all'd ANY part of the car, that part of the car would have the warranty void. something about all the chemicals in the solution. Has anyone heard this too??
No matter what though, I LOVE MY SAAB!!! I've been following the posts from TomW and his fiasco (or what he's making out to be a fiasco) and don't understand.
OH! and...to someeone that said they had problems with getting a loaner from their dealer, TELL your dealer in advance you need one. I always make a reservation for one and never have a problem. There's always going to be days they have them all reserved already, so don't go last minute.
Any of you know how to attach an ipod to the 9-3?
saab v Jag x
(s+) softer more comfortable seats seats
(s+) bigger interior feel (though tech specs say I only have 1 more inch of headroom and everything else is the same... this is weird. I guess it's the positioning in the saab which is more comfortable and upright than the jag which is kinda low and tight)
(s-) front wheel drive feels slippery...what will this be like in the rain & snow (jag did amazing in big puddles - couldn't feel or hear them)
(s-) no nav
(s+) little road feedback... i can't stand bumpy cars
(s-) handling is airy and not heavy...not as in control as the jag
(s+) automatic gear shifting not noticeable at all - like the whole car is in 1 gear
(s+) seat back heats up too - not just butt like jag
(s-) blah interior with bad cupholders
(s+) can use ipod. no chance w/ jag.
(s+) probably wont be mugged in a saab but may be killed in a jag (live in a gentrifying part of the city)... (despite the small 2k price difference, jag screams "im loaded"... saabs are more nondescript to most)
(s+) better stereo than jag
210 hp 4L turbo vs. 227 hp 3.0 L V6
I would add the MPG comparison - the Saab is a clear winner. No V6 can compete here. (And 227 hp for a V6 is less than exciting). Add here the AWD, which conusmes more gas as well...
I just leased the Arc and am quite happy with the interior (i.e., can't see anything "blah" about it). The cupholders are surprisingly sturdy - that was my major concern at the outset - and with that issue addressed, they are cooler than any other cupholder you'll see. Conveniently retract out of sight... In any event, we are talking about choosing a $35K+ car here - would you really let the cupholder make the decision for you?
One last point: the X-type (or any Jag for that matter) says "I'm loaded, but I'm either over 50 or feel/drive like I'm over 50, whereas the Saab says "I can obviously afford a BMW or a Lexus, but am original enough to choose something more elegant" IMHO.