Reading the discussion above, it occurred to me that Honda has little to gain by taking styling risks on the Pilot.
They'll easily sell their entire production capacity to their dealers, and dealers will sell their vehicles at MSRP or higher for quite some time.
So what's to gain by taking that risk? Probably not higher MSRP and hence higher invoice, because that would put it into MDX territory.
That got me to thinking (yes, I unerstand that's dangerous). On what vehicles has Honda taken a risk? The S2000? CR-X? Civic Del Sol? 1st Generation CR-V? The styling on those vehicles was more unusual or innovative. Perhaps necessary to enter into a new market segment.
While in some ways the Pilot represents a new segment for Honda, it's not as new as any of the above examples. With the Pilot positioned between the already successful CR-V and MDX, Honda saw less need for risk. Looks like the market will confirm that judgment.
Also on the subject of styling and risk, I actually liked the look of the Isuzu Vehicross, but not enough to buy one.
Pontiac took some risk with the Aztek. I seem to remember some good pre-release reviews, but haven't read anything favorable post release.
Hey when it gets here,it may well be (from all the reading i've done) motor trends next SUV of the year (betcha). As above the styling will be acceptable, but with all the other class leading attributes, bingo sales success. How about this. Under what circumstances would it not be a success? Have a whole bunch of recalls like ford, GM quality...jag service and quality? Hey it will be a class leader. What's in it's class, if i tell my wife that it's bigger than the explorer, turns on dime like the mdx, quality to boot. So tell me those that doubt...how will NOT be a success. I think if they pull some ofthe things that acura has, and not have adequate production that can hurt. I think it will hurt MDX sales. I would have to wait till may for an MDX or august for a pilot. No brainer. acura hurt itself....agree? I think that the pilot was planned long ago, and acura has had time to build owner loyalty and service....Hmmmmmmm
Maybe in interior volume, but not on outward dimensions. The MDX is only wider than the Explorer, but it's a few inches smaller in length and height. From the pics, it doesn't seem as if the Pilot will be any longer than the MDX.
The Pilot will be a huge success. At a production rate of only 75,000 per year, expect long a long waiting list and huge dealer markups. (Ford sells more than 75,000 Explorers in two months)
Thanks for the link to the accessories list. I'm sure MDX owners will be interested to see if any of them will work for the MDX, perhaps at a cheaper price, or if they'll be made available for the MDX in 2003.
A few observations from the list ...
1) No mention of transmission/steering coolers with the tow hitch, which is necessary for the MDX to tow. I wonder if the Pilot has those built in, or doesn't need them, or are they simply missing from that accessories list? Then again, Acura doesn't even sell the hitch without the coolers now that they're required. Could be that the Pilot is a better deal than the MDX as far as towing goes.
2) Some small, expected differences between the Pilot and MDX show up -- fog lights and an electrochromatic rear view mirror are accessories for the Pilot (standard on the MDX). They alone won't account for making the Pilot less expensive but it all adds up.
3) So the rear seat entertainment system is available both as a factory option, and as an add-on accessory? Is that so you can add it to a Pilot EX with Nav (can't order a Pilot with both)?
4) While Honda tends to package their vehicles packed with standard equipment and eliminates the endless list of options, that seems to result in more stuff being dealer-installed accessories. Unfortunately that's proven to be a problem when the vehicle is hot. From what some would-be MDX buyers have reported, some greedy dealerships are forcing overpriced accessories as part of the purchase. E.g. perhaps they'll sell at MSRP but then they turn around and charge a huge amount for a package of wheel locks, mud flaps, and the cargo tray as a "protection package." Or even when the accessories aren't forced, the dealership charges quite a bit on the accessory itself, and/or the installation of such.
That said, there are plenty of places on the Internet where you can buy accessories at a discount (e.g. www.hondacuraworld.com, which has good prices and great service, and a lot of MDX owners have bought accessories from).
When the MDX was first released, Acura had the base part price up (labor not included) on their website. Curiously, within several days, the prices were heavily revised upward. There was a lot of speculation that it was done because dealers were charging heavily padded prices.
Do you have a link for Pilot availability from Automotive News, or was that from the print edition? If from the print edition, then given publishing time lines, it's no more recent than all the other stories on Jan 6 when the Pilot was unveiled in Detroit. Most other articles have said spring production and in dealer show rooms by summer.
Here's a press release from BorgWarner on the electronic torque management system to be used in the Pilot. It's the same system as used in the MDX.
"The system, which offers consumers better handling and fuel economy, improved security, and more flexibility than passive, mechanical four-wheel drive systems, debuted in late 2000 on the award-winning Acura MDX."
It controls all 4 wheels independently and only delivers power to the rear when required. So, it sounds like the Pilot will operate in front wheel drive mode most of the time, unlike some full-time 4WD systems.
Should i wait for the Pilot or go ahead and buy the MDX? I'm afraid that i will regret buying the MDX. Will Acura/Honda make a distinction between the 2? Maybe have a huge gap in price between them to separate them into two different classes? I heard the Pilot will be wider. Any good sites with closeup pics of the Pilot? I'm confused. Thanks in advance.
P.S: I'm afraid that if i wait also, the Pilot won't be much of a savings because of demand and added options. Also, MDX will most likely increase in price for 2003 as they add on more features, improvements, etc.
I have a deposit with the MDX. I test drove the MDX and it was great. The 3.5L 240hp engine is strong enough. But I heard from motorweek that they will use a 3.8L V-6 engineer same as the TL on the 2003 one. The price is about $40K (a gouging by the Acura Dealers). Acura dealers have been request deposits from $400 to $1000 lately in the SF Bay Area.
The Pilot styling is not so great. But is the styling important... that's the question.
It's looks like a bigger CR-V like (agreeing with some posting here). I think the pricing will be:
LX: $25,700
EX: $29,800
Leather adds: $3000 Nav adds: $3000
But the Pilot will likely have quality issues for at least a year since it is new. Little things are more likely to go wrong that the big stuff since it is basically a MDX clone.
Why Honda?? I have an 96' Accord with 128K miles and it's still happy. I had my first engine light go on at 127.7K miles
"Although it has the same wheelbase as the MDX, the Pilot is a little taller and wider, and consequently the interior is larger. It has a maximum cargo volume of about 90 cubic feet behind the front seats, compared with 81.5 for the MDX."
If I was looking for an Expedition size, I would have gotten something else.
I doubt Honda will do a lot for the 2003 mdx except the new TL engine. But 0-60 speeds will not be much faster since it also probably weights more. 240hp vs. 260hp. Well maybe 0.4 secs faster.
we are being told by Honda that we will have them in June/July. I'm sure that Honda wont want to interfere with the new Accord that is being released this fall.
This should be a very nice addition to the line...being that we are having a difficult time unloading the Passport and CR-V's are taking TOO LONG to get here.
If I was looking for an Expedition size, I would have gotten something else.
I doubt Honda will do a lot for the 2003 mdx except the new TL engine. But 0-60 speeds will not be much faster since it also probably weights more. 240hp vs. 260hp. Well maybe 0.4 secs faster.
I really can't imagine that the Pilot will be wider than the MDX. I am sure a lot of the articles are speculation. As it is, the MDX is wide. Looking at the photos so far, it looks like the Pilot is longer (more room behind the third seat). If the 90 cu. ft. is correct (9 more than the MDX), I would have to think that comes from them more upright shape and added length.
Take it with a grain of salt. When automotive folks start making claims like, "class leading cargo space", they often mean one cubic foot more than the competition. The difference in width could be less than an inch and might be due to larger side mirrors. We've also seen some articles where they specify "wide track" vs "wide body". Personally, I'd rather see a wide track. The extra 9 cu ft of cargo space could easily be the result of making the sides and rear panels more upright and by raising the roof slightly.
I like the way the Pilot looks from the pics I've seen. It's very conservative looking that's not going to offend or (overly) excite anyone. It has a look that won't be outdated very quickly ala PT Cruiser (what a joke).
So what if it looks like a super-sized CR-V. That's fine with me. I figure the Pilot is what anyone outgrowing the CR-V wants or anyone that finds the CR-V too small to begin with. Just look at it this way. When you buy a pair of jeans, the same style comes in different sizes. You just need to find the pair that fits you. I don't think this analogy is too far off. ;-)
Hey, does anyone think the Pilot will have color-matching mud flaps?
with additional $2500 charge! It would make it 'invincible' for atleast coming few years! Rightnow with a better powered 2.4 Liet enegine it has started displacing Escape & that too every sale at MSRP!!! 2002 might see more than 150,000 sales of CR-V
however... that has to the the must boring, uninspired, dull, generic vehicle I've ever seen in my life. I know Honda styling is pretty conservative but THIS styling is just, well, missing the styling. Is it just me? I mean, it's the closest thing to the original Chrysler minivan I've seen to date... a box with a nose. Even the Highlander (attacked for boring styling) has some interesting design elements and body creases. I'm a Honda FAN but I wouldn't pay $30,000 for this vehicle... no way.
The ever increasing width of new vehicles is really getting to be a problem, IMO. I've often wondered if I have a particularly small garage (it's a SF Bay Area tract house built in the 70s), but that appears not be the case. Trying to park AND get out from an Accord and Odyssey is a daily hassle. Fortunately, folding mirrors save these cars from daily dents when kids open the doors. Bottom line is, I can't get the Pilot to replace the Odyssey unless we buy a house(NOT!) with a bigger (3 car?) garage, or am ready to park one car in the driveway.
On a related note, I noticed that even 2002 Camrys shipped from Japan have fixed mirrors. Always thought that folding mirrors was a must to maximize vehicles loaded on the ship from Japan. I'd like to see all offering at least the driver's side mirror as folding.
Looked over edmunds info on various "midsize" and Lux SUV's some surprises--max cargo volume Pilot--90 Explorer--88 Highlander--81 Escalade--105 Navigator--109 LEXUS LX470--90 (pilot has as much as the lx470!!!! ML320---???no info I feel this will put much pressure on the ML320 MDX, Highlander, Rx300 etc. Wow as big as the lx470 and bigger than the EXplorer.
The ML has about 81 or 82 cu.ft. I'd also add the Durango with 88, the Trooper with 85, and the Pathfinder with 85. The Disco has a rather paltry 63 (less than a CR-V!).
However, when you get within 5 cu.ft. of each other the shape of the cargo area becomes just as important. In this case, cargo-wars would probably still go to the Pilot. Based on what we've seen with the MDX, it should have a resonably regular shape to the cargo area.
I've contacted my local dealer and of course they would take a $1000 deposit, charge me MSRP, options, if I wanted, at MSRP with a projected June delivery.
In my neck of the woods, developers are squeezing in the max # of parking spaces by making them as narrow as code would allow. Couple with the fact that new cars are generally getting wider, parking has become almost like an Olympic event!
Ford wasn't too happy about the Sequioa's claimed cargo volume that was greater than its Expedition model. So they tested it...apparently, the Sequioa's 2nd row is very difficult to remove (rendering the claimed cargo volume as being misleading). Also, Ford had a problem with the Sequioa's claimed ground clearance being far better than the Expedition.
Diploid is right about the Sequioa. Apparently the only way to remove the second row and be able to safely re-install it is by using tools found in the manufacturing plant, but not your average garage.
Many of us are dumping on the Pilot's styling, but take another look at the new Explorer. Now THAT is plain, bland, boring, unimaginative, brick-like and whatever other adjective you can think of.
Not to defend ford or anything, but the new explorer does have some interesting styling elements.... there's an interesting line from the rear taillight diag. downwards. The rear split hatch is unique and there are a few other lines that give it some personality at least. The Pilot is devoid of ANY individuality on the outside. also, the rear glass doesn't open (even the CRV's does). There are no character lines on the body.... in fact, if you were to remove the grey "design" on the front/rear bumper you'd swear it was Russian or something. I'm really shocked they didn't do SOMETHING to give it a personality. I mean, when it drives by, nobody will look twice. Even the new CR-V has the interesting rear taillight treatment right? I mean, it's not UGLY or anything but again, this vehicle could have been introduced in the 80's and would have fit right in. What's odd to me is that when the Forester came out, people attacked Subaru because the styling was so generic.... and compared to the Pilot, it looks down right futuristic. I realize there are people that buy Hondas regardless of what they look like just because they are Hondas. But this is not the Accord where Honda has a market share already. This is a new vehicle for Honda.... a market that already exists where they currently have 0 market share. So they need to attract people away from other makes like the Highlander, Explorer, Trailblazer ect. and I think it's pretty clear that they aren't going to do it with styling. Unfortunately, Styling is what gets people into the showroom. I don't know HOW anyone considering the competition would look in the showroom at the Pilot and say "Wow! lets go try THAT one out!" Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder but in an age where there are SO MANY SUVs/crossovers/minivans, you have to do SOMETHING to stand out. What does the Pilot do?
Comments
They'll easily sell their entire production capacity to their dealers, and dealers will sell their vehicles at MSRP or higher for quite some time.
So what's to gain by taking that risk? Probably not higher MSRP and hence higher invoice, because that would put it into MDX territory.
That got me to thinking (yes, I unerstand that's dangerous). On what vehicles has Honda taken a risk? The S2000? CR-X? Civic Del Sol? 1st Generation CR-V? The styling on those vehicles was more unusual or innovative. Perhaps necessary to enter into a new market segment.
While in some ways the Pilot represents a new segment for Honda, it's not as new as any of the above examples. With the Pilot positioned between the already successful CR-V and MDX, Honda saw less need for risk. Looks like the market will confirm that judgment.
Also on the subject of styling and risk, I actually liked the look of the Isuzu Vehicross, but not enough to buy one.
Pontiac took some risk with the Aztek. I seem to remember some good pre-release reviews, but haven't read anything favorable post release.
Just think the interest Honda dealers will be making on your deposit for 8 months and then they will charge you thousands above MSRP!
Best of Luck
A few observations from the list ...
1) No mention of transmission/steering coolers with the tow hitch, which is necessary for the MDX to tow. I wonder if the Pilot has those built in, or doesn't need them, or are they simply missing from that accessories list? Then again, Acura doesn't even sell the hitch without the coolers now that they're required. Could be that the Pilot is a better deal than the MDX as far as towing goes.
2) Some small, expected differences between the Pilot and MDX show up -- fog lights and an electrochromatic rear view mirror are accessories for the Pilot (standard on the MDX). They alone won't account for making the Pilot less expensive but it all adds up.
3) So the rear seat entertainment system is available both as a factory option, and as an add-on accessory? Is that so you can add it to a Pilot EX with Nav (can't order a Pilot with both)?
4) While Honda tends to package their vehicles packed with standard equipment and eliminates the endless list of options, that seems to result in more stuff being dealer-installed accessories. Unfortunately that's proven to be a problem when the vehicle is hot. From what some would-be MDX buyers have reported, some greedy dealerships are forcing overpriced accessories as part of the purchase. E.g. perhaps they'll sell at MSRP but then they turn around and charge a huge amount for a package of wheel locks, mud flaps, and the cargo tray as a "protection package." Or even when the accessories aren't forced, the dealership charges quite a bit on the accessory itself, and/or the installation of such.
That said, there are plenty of places on the Internet where you can buy accessories at a discount (e.g. www.hondacuraworld.com, which has good prices and great service, and a lot of MDX owners have bought accessories from).
When the MDX was first released, Acura had the base part price up (labor not included) on their website. Curiously, within several days, the prices were heavily revised upward. There was a lot of speculation that it was done because dealers were charging heavily padded prices.
JM2C
"The system, which offers consumers better handling and fuel economy, improved security, and more flexibility than passive, mechanical four-wheel drive systems, debuted in late 2000 on the award-winning Acura MDX."
It controls all 4 wheels independently and only delivers power to the rear when required. So, it sounds like the Pilot will operate in front wheel drive mode most of the time, unlike some full-time 4WD systems.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=popmech_auto.story&STORY=/www/story/01-17-2002/0001650158&EDATE=THU+Jan+17+2002,+10:39+AM
The article was from the hardcopy and you are probably correct regarding date that information was collected. Only time will tell.
Redlenses
Should i wait for the Pilot or go ahead and buy the MDX? I'm afraid that i will regret buying the MDX. Will Acura/Honda make a distinction between the 2? Maybe have a huge gap in price between them to separate them into two different classes? I heard the Pilot will be wider. Any good sites with closeup pics of the Pilot? I'm confused. Thanks in advance.
P.S: I'm afraid that if i wait also, the Pilot won't be much of a savings because of demand and added options. Also, MDX will most likely increase in price for 2003 as they add on more features, improvements, etc.
I have a deposit with the MDX. I test drove the MDX and it was great. The 3.5L 240hp engine is strong enough. But I heard from motorweek that they will use a 3.8L V-6 engineer same as the TL on the 2003 one. The price is about $40K (a gouging by the Acura Dealers). Acura dealers have been request deposits from $400 to $1000 lately in the SF Bay Area.
The Pilot styling is not so great. But is the styling important... that's the question.
It's looks like a bigger CR-V like (agreeing with some posting here). I think the pricing will be:
LX: $25,700
EX: $29,800
Leather adds: $3000
Nav adds: $3000
But the Pilot will likely have quality issues for at least a year since it is new. Little things are more likely to go wrong that the big stuff since it is basically a MDX clone.
Why Honda?? I have an 96' Accord with 128K miles and it's still happy. I had my first engine light go on at 127.7K miles
I test drove the Highlander V-4. No power at all.
You have to register to read the article, but it lists a few details regarding dimensions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/20/automobiles/20PILO.html
"Although it has the same wheelbase as the MDX, the Pilot is a little taller and wider, and consequently the interior is larger. It has a maximum cargo volume of about 90 cubic feet behind the front seats, compared with 81.5 for the MDX."
I found a link to pics of the Honda Pilot.
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/48583/page007.html
If I was looking for an Expedition size, I would have gotten something else.
I doubt Honda will do a lot for the 2003 mdx except the new TL engine. But 0-60 speeds will not be much faster since it also probably weights more. 240hp vs. 260hp. Well maybe 0.4 secs faster.
This should be a very nice addition to the line...being that we are having a difficult time unloading the Passport and CR-V's are taking TOO LONG to get here.
Jerry
If I was looking for an Expedition size, I would have gotten something else.
I doubt Honda will do a lot for the 2003 mdx except the new TL engine. But 0-60 speeds will not be much faster since it also probably weights more. 240hp vs. 260hp. Well maybe 0.4 secs faster.
So what if it looks like a super-sized CR-V. That's fine with me. I figure the Pilot is what anyone outgrowing the CR-V wants or anyone that finds the CR-V too small to begin with. Just look at it this way. When you buy a pair of jeans, the same style comes in different sizes. You just need to find the pair that fits you. I don't think this analogy is too far off. ;-)
Hey, does anyone think the Pilot will have color-matching mud flaps?
Parking in the SF Bay Area will be kinda tough.
I think Honda cloned the CR-V and expanded it.
Something like Civic and Accord kind of styling.
Nothing too interesting. Should probably be near Oddesey pricing plus $1K to $2K.
The rest of the Bay Area, like at my house on the peninsula, it'll park just fine.
Same goes for the Expedition/Explorer. At least they made the Escape attractive.
A 7/8 Grand Cherokee would be nice, too.
On a related note, I noticed that even 2002 Camrys shipped from Japan have fixed mirrors. Always thought that folding mirrors was a must to maximize vehicles loaded on the ship from Japan. I'd like to see all offering at least the driver's side mirror as folding.
Pilot--90
Explorer--88
Highlander--81
Escalade--105
Navigator--109
LEXUS LX470--90 (pilot has as much as the lx470!!!!
ML320---???no info
I feel this will put much pressure on the ML320 MDX, Highlander, Rx300 etc.
Wow as big as the lx470 and bigger than the EXplorer.
However, when you get within 5 cu.ft. of each other the shape of the cargo area becomes just as important. In this case, cargo-wars would probably still go to the Pilot. Based on what we've seen with the MDX, it should have a resonably regular shape to the cargo area.
Not bad..
Odyssey sales surpass the Windstar, getting close to the T&C, but nowhere near the Caravan.