Saturn ION

dindak

All I ever see in the paper are ads for the ION 1 base car. I guess they just want to get people in with that low low price. I wonder what percentage of IONs are the base cars? I'm sure Saturn doesn't make much one them.

aveman

I agree the Ion 1 would not be for everyone, but if money is an issue I think the 1 is a good deal. I do think they should adjust the price and make A/C standard. For people who can get by without frills, and Ion 1 with ABS and side air bags would be a good safe car,at a good price. Saturn deserves to get ripped about the lack of seat height adjustment in the 1. I am not short but I think that sucks. Kia Rio's offer seat height adjustment. Even bicylcles come standard with seat height adjustment. That said, they are not the only car company to make you come up with more bucks if you wanted a better view out of the car.

uga91

Sure, all car dealers do that. They advertise the $10,000 car to get you to come in--but when you come in, they want to show you the $15,000 version instead.

dindak

Car dealers do that yes, but I'm talking about Saturn Canada corporate ads. Mother GM doesn't do that in their ads usually.

dunworth

Actually the el-cheapo versions of the Cavalier/Sunfore are the same. GM advertises them at only C$12K but most of the ones I see are the slightly nicer $14K versions or even the fancy sporty ones.

The Civic and Corolla on the other hand are always advertised in the mid grade trim level up here, which is stick and air for the Civic and auto and air for the Corolla. Very few Corollas are sold with stick while it still represents a good chunk of the Civic business. In both these cases the mid trim level comes with air, cd, nice seats, power locks, and keyless remote. The base price of these cars are shown in small print in the ads but I do not think you can easily find one.

Meanwhile Saturn actually has always made available a good selection of its base models. Both of my SLs were the entry trim level (SL1 and SL2 were the better levels). Saturn and the Cav/Sunfire are the only decent size cheapo cars on the road. All the other ones like the Echo, Accent, Rio or Aveo etc are tiny inside.

dindak

Well, Cavalier / Sunfire usually also adds in a a/c and auto model for a but more in the ad also.

Not a big deal, whatever eh?

vabiker

I went back to my Saturn dealership and got clarification on the incentives available in my area currently. These are all for 2004 vehicles

ION-1 3.9% with $650 downpayment assistance. Min. $7,000 financed.

ION-2 & -3 0.0% financing with $1,500 cash for 60 months.

ION-2 & -3 $2,500 cash for cash transaction.

As for my purchase, I'm largely unimpressed by ammenities in any vehicle. I mostly consider them a waste of resources in every regard.

An ION-1 fits the bill for me as a basic car. I would only get AC as an accommodation to my wife. I'm a cheapskate and don't want to spend more than necessary to secure a reasonably safe and reliable car.

Hey, without having a family, my "car" would only be a bicycle...

dunworth

You and I share a basic dislike of amenities. I love to drive but I prefer simplicity and like a car without all the electronic doodads and a manual transmission.

I do not understand the point of these high end vehicles with stability control etc. Where is the fun and skill of driving? In Europe, most of the cars are fairly decontented and require more skill to control. This is why they are not generally aware of all the electronic gremlins because those loaded models are usually only for the North American export market.

Even my first car, a Volvo, was basic, no air, roll up windows etc. Both my Saturns were the base SL model, although the second one came with air, ps, and pb. I had two basic Hyundais with only auto (for my wife). My two cars now both are in the mid trim level, comparable to the ION2, with air, pl, keyless remote but crank up windows and they still feel "loaded" to me.

The only things I do like are nice upholstery and decent looking wheel covers.

uga91

Again, I understand what you are saying. However, I don't want to beat a dead horse; but, I will anyway. Seriously, a base ION 1 with manual and A/C is $11,995 with destination. An ION 2 with nothing else is $14,553 with destination. That is a difference of $2558. But, after the extra $850 rebate, the difference drops to only $1708. Plus, you get 0% financing vs 3.9% APR--that will translate into a few bucks a month on the payment. But, for $1708, you get 15" wheels (vs 14") and upgraded tires, upgraded seat material, height adjustable seating, power locks, seat back storage and a center console, an air filtration filter and a CD player. To me, that's quite a bit for $1708. Not only that, but the extras you get will be worth more when it comes time to trade it in a few years down the road--no matter how long that road may be. Besides, you may not care that you don't have a CD player today, but you may find that you don't know how you lived without one a couple of years from now. Again, get what you like--good luck to you. Just don't overlook a possibly "better" option simply due to a sticker price that appears to be a lot higher than it really is.

vabiker

What are people seeing for processing fees at their local dealerships? My local dealer asks $195.

I look at this as pure profit to the pocket of a Saturn dealer, especially in the context of the fixed pricing system.

Let's see...there's profit built-in, so let's go ahead and add more...

I think when I bought my first Saturn back in '91, the dealer didn't charge a processing fee. I know the financing/interest rate landscape has changed since then.

I want these guys to make a living, but how much is too much; what's fair? Edmund's doesn't list holdback information any more, but we all know it's in the MSRP for the car.

Off topic, but dunworth, I hope you went to see the World Championships of road cycling in Hamilton last month. There were some exciting and controversial races for sure...

uga91

My Saturn store, Saturn of Gwinnett (Duluth, GA--metro Atlanta) gets $259 for their Doc Fee. The cost of doing business, I guess. I try not to let a couple hundred bucks destroy the fun time that getting a new car is suppossed to be. Have fun and enjoy your new car!

dindak

I negotiated my "admin fee" down to $150 from $225 last time. It mite even be negotiable at Saturn!

vocus

Oh, that one was easy. I got down to the point where I was signing the papers for my car and the salesman said there would be a $399 doc fee. I said, 'ok, thanks.. I changed my mind' and took my belongings and walked toward the door. They said it was negotiable, and I told them I wanted it as close to 0 as possible. I ended up paying $99.

aveman

I wonder how much some dealers want sell their cars.When cars come out, they are so busy adding stripes fabric protection and fees to drive any reasonble person away from the car.It is worse when you put these over stickered cars in malls.The message you should send is this is a nice car that can be affordable,rather than this is a nice overpriced car and you can tell by the add ons on the sticker that we will try to rob you if you come see us.When I saw those added things on a sticker I would try to find a differnt dealer.

dunworth

No sorry, I missed the bike races. Plus I myself do not bike as much as I used to.

aveman: I agree and I think the Big 3 are a lot worse for jacking up sticker prices because of all the options. The Japanese car companies offer just a few trim levels and most of the cars on the lot fit into these (CE, LE,XLE). I work down the street from a huge GM dealership and cannot believe the stickers. They have Sunfires on the lot for C$24 K, when the base cash price is only $12K and $14K for the mid trim level.

On the other hand, me and my family have always been able to find base versions of our GM vehicles whereas I cannot remember ever seeing a base version of the current Civic or Corolla.

uga91

I would agree as far as Honda goes. I think that is probably the best thing about Honda. You know what you are going to get with an LX and there is no guess work as to whether or not the one in the color you like has the features you want. They are all equipped the same. Toyota is similar, but you can add options to cars in lower trim levels that make the price go up in a hurry.

afk_x

Our doc fee is $45. Then again I am in California where state law caps the doc fee at $45.

afk_x

Head over to Saturnfans and on the front page there is an article about the 2.4.

Will be built in Spring Hill and used in the Cobalt and (probably) the ION in 2005. No mention of use in the VUE.

dindak

Yes, I saw that this morning. It says the 2.4L will likely go into a Saturn for 05 or 06. My guess is, you will see it in the VUE since it's locally sourced but we shall see. As you say, the CVT can't likely handle the power unless it's modified.

uga91

That must be the only thing that is cheaper in California! My mother-in-law just returned from San Francisco on business and her hotel got $35 for a room service omelet and charged $36 a night to park her rental car (that only cost $38 a day to rent!) in their garage. They can have it!

vuefor2

The Corolla option packages are terrible. If you want certain power things, you have to move up the "S" model which has those ugly rocker panels and spoiler. It certainly did not help to sell me on the car but as the Corolla sells well anyway, I guess most people don't care.

alpha01

The Corolla is actually one of few Toyota models that DOESNT suffer from too many confusing options packages (reference the heinous Sienna, Solara, Prius configurations). There are about 2 options packages for each trim line. If there was something you wanted in a Corolla CE but couldnt get it, the logical step up would be the LE which really isnt that much more expensive for what you get. Can I ask what it was that you wanted?

~alpha

vuefor2

ABS is the main one. Not available on the CE, have to move to the "S" and all the cladding to get one main option. I will not buy a car with no ABS period.

uga91

You can get ABS on an ION 1. So, at least Saturn does not make you buy an ION 2 or 3 like Honda or Toyota would.

regfootball

same thing with the side air bag.

wish the sunroof was an option on Ion 1.

dindak

You can always go aftermarket. They are much better than they used to be.

Our office administrator has a Corolla S. Man is it ugly. CE is a pretty nice car though.

regfootball

the Ion sunroof is huge....I wouldn't be too sure an aftermarket one would be as big.

alpha01

Toyota has a messed up distribution/supply method, IMO. Technically, you CAN get ABS on the CE (read the sales brochure), but dealers in many regions dont order CEs this way, because ABS is easier to move on LEs, many of which in the NJ region are equipped with either ABS or the side airbags, or both. You dont need to go to the S from the CE to ABS, whoever told you that lied. (The biggest problem with Toyota Motor Sales, IMO, is their numerous dishonest dealers). My point: if you wanted, you could have "ordered" a CE with ABS and side airbags, but you'd have to wait for it. The ION's side curtain, IMO, is more desirable than the Civic/Corollas lone thoracic side impact airbag, though neither is the optimal setup. (That would be a seat mounted side airbag coupled WITH front and rear side curtains, IMO).

~alpha

dindak

I went to the Toyota.ca web site

Under CE, ABS - N/A

I don't think that's regional. That's Canada wide and this is a country where ABS is VERY popular.

alpha01

My fault. I'm thinking in terms of US, where ABS is available on all trim levels.

~alpha

vuefor2

Well I live right here in the good old US of A and we were told no ABS on CE models available either. Maybe they have changed that policy since we looked, I don't have the brochure.

Don't care anyway, we liked the Ion and out Saturn dealer better.

:-)

alpha01

Toyota dealers arent always an honest bunch. Since the intro as 2003 model, the CE has *technically* been available with ABS. No argument from me, Saturn dealers sure are more pleasant to deal with, as a whole.

~alpha

dindak

With Toyota sales going so well, they really don't have to try hard to make you happy. Always the worst situation to be in as a consumer. Honda and BMW are also guilty of this IMO.

davethewave1

ABS is basically unavailable on all ION's in my region. They just won't order them. Perhaps if I really pushed and had them order a car I could get it.

uga91

They could get you one--or have one built for you. They won't let you leave if you really want to buy an ION with ABS.

dindak

ABS has saved me from collision at least twice. I would never buy a car with out.

mdriver

I like the style of the Ion a lot more than any other car. But as I read a few stinging reports (such as Edmunds' own) and realized this is a 1st year GM car, I quickly came to the conclusion that the competition has nothing to worry about. Now if they offered a Hyundai-like warranty to allay reliability worries, that would be a step in the right direction. Come on, 3/36 warranty?

regfootball

it allows them to make a strong pitch to you to spend more money and get the extended warranty.

dindak

Those Hyundia warranties have more holes in them than a piece if swiss cheese and Hyundia has to offer warranties like that because their cars are near the bottom in long term reliability and they had a terrible reputation. None of the major car companies offer this, Saturn doesn't need to though obviously as a consumer it would be nice to have.

regfootball

Hyundais these days are doing good in reliability.

At the mall tonight they had an Ion sedan and coupe with aftermarket 7 spoke Motegi wheels frighteningly close to the RedLine wheels. REALLY helped the looks of the car. The coupe was in black, real sharp. Quite nice. The sedan still looks bulky even with slimming wheels. Big upgrade over the factory wheels.

The interior upgrades do help. Getting rid of the natty dash was a HUGE plus. Up next, steering wheel hopefully. Silver trim helps a lot too.

On saturnfans.com they grafted an Ion coupe front end onto the sedan. Looks good. Saturn should do that.

afk_x

The ION uses an advanced Bosch 8.0 4 channel ABS system that pulses the brakes extremely fast. So fast you can nary detect that they are working.

http://www.boschusa.com/News/ViewNews.asp?NewsType=PR&ID=35

Speaking of safety - a customer came in today because he was in a major collision last night. He was driving around 50-55 and was hit off center by a Subburban that turned into him. Not only did he walk away without ANY injury but he claims to not even be sore.

aveman

A better warranty would give Saturn an oppurtunity to pick up sales from buyers of Honda's that got burnt by bad warranties.Saturn does offer some good information on their web site about extended warranties. The only thing they don't mention is how much the plans cost. That seems sort of shady to me. They do have a number to call, or tell you to check with your dealer. Asking a dealer how much an extended warranty cost sounds like a good way to get robbed to me.If Saturn is not trying to let their customers get taken, why not post the cost of the extended warranty on the web site.If I planned to keep an Ion for over 3 years, I would want the extended powertrain warranty.Also the major players like Honda who don't offer good warranties, do sometimes extend the warranties when they find they have shipped a number of cars with faulty components like transmissions.I would want confirmation from Saturn on how much an extended warranty cost. I would not ask the sales manager.

dindak

Hyundia still ranks 2nd or 3rd from the bottom in long term reliability (JD Power). Don't kid yourself, they are better but far from average.

uga91

I also wish Saturn (and GM) offered a longer warranty, but what can you do? I know, buy another brand of car. Even Toyota now offers a longer powertrain warranty.

I know this is not the place, but Hyundai is a much better car these days than many people realize. The JD Power study that was referenced above uses 2000 model year cars. Since then a lot has changed at Hyundai. Consumer Reports labels the Sonata and XG350 (and another model I think) as "Recommended." Even edmunds likes the Elantra. It got "Editors Most Wanted" last year. Lastly, Hyundai (and Kia) will be dropping 10/100 warranty after 2005, I believe.

afk_x

"Saturn does offer some good information on their web site about extended warranties. The only thing they don't mention is how much the plans cost."

First go to www.saturn.com

Click on the vehicle you want. Lets pick an ION for now. A new screen will pop up. On the left side of the screen there is an option for "build your ION". From there you simply configure an ION how you want and then you will come to a screen that allows you to pick what warrenty coverage you want with full disclosure of prices.

mdriver

If Hyundai "needs" a longer warranty because its cars are unreliable, then Lexus must be in the same boat as they too offer a long warranty.

Extended warranties have been completely discredited by just about every auto report I've ever read as being over priced insurance policies of which cover only things that rarely break. The 5/60 Hyundai warrant has no "holes" in it whatsoever. Oh, and you don't have to pay extra for it. Again, love the Ion styling, but the body panel gaps that you could almost get a fist into, make me think twice. Give me a long warranty and I might take the risk.

dindak

Are there for a reason. It's not a flaw, it's needed for the expanding polymer panels.

As for Hyundia warranties, I have heard lots of stories about how they are not really bumper to bumper from owners. Maybe it's changed.

aveman

Thanks for the tip afk_x. Saturn does post warranty cost there.However, they do have a disclaimer saying that the acutal cost may vary, and are set by the retailer.In any case I would like to see GM pull back some on the rebates and extend the powertrain warranty.That is just my point of view. For people that don't keep cars long the warranty is fine.I would go for a manual trans anyway, and clucths are not covered well by warranty.So I would expect to pay about 800.00 bucks every time I needed a clutch. This is not a jab at Saturn, that is how manual transmissons are (not) covered.Maybe it is just a coencidence that many early clutch failures are happenig across the board Japanees, German,.I would not be anymore wary of buying a saturn without extra coverage than any other car.In fact I would put Ion ahead of some.I still like the Ion and think it can be a good buy.You can balance out the cost of warranty with the incentives and compare with other makers.If I end up with a Saturn,(no money right now) it will probably be an Ion. This may be the last of the plastic panel cars and that was a big feature for me.I would take that into consideration when buying those plastic panels mean something to me and I think people, (like reviewers that point out the gaps, when they know why they are bigger are just being silly.Here is a question for Saturn people. How many cars can be Bought or ordered with ABS and side (curtain) airbags, cheaper than an Ion 1.If I didn't think that Ion had something to offer, I would not be viewing this thread.

uga91

Good luck to you in your decision!

uga91

I'm sure the cost of an extended warranty can be negotiated a little, so that may be why the web site says prices may vary. You know, now if you don't buy an extended warranty, you do not get road side assistance. If you don't get an extended warranty, the only road side assistance you get is they will tow your car to the closest dealer in the event your Saturn craps out. That's it. Since my wife has AAA and she drives the ION the most, we opted not to get one. We did, however, get one on our current Chrysler van as Chrysler set up the same deal with extended warranties and roadside assistance as well. As far as I can tell, these changes took place in 2003.