Saturn ION

dindak

dunworth : That's why the Cavalier will become the Cobalt. Cavalier's image is just bad though it's pretty reliable.

lawnman : Many GM brands including Saturn are above average in long term reliability. You are right, they aren't all there yet (GM is not @ Toyota levels yet), but difference in the # off issues / 100 cars shrinks every year.

alpha : Thanx man. ;-)

lawman1967

is more than number of defects per car. It definitely does include the tactile feel of switches and surfaces, the comfort and support of the seats (Ion's are MUCH better than the S series).

I understand about the plastic body panels (have them on our L200), and yes, the engines and transmissions from GM are very good (perhaps the best automatic transmissions in the world), but that doesn't change the QUALITY of the car.

A Cavalier may start everyday and go for 100,000 miles, but it is still a VERY low quality car. The interior is disgustingly cheap, the seats are downright uncomfortable and the driving position is horrible. Everything that the driver sees or touches inside the car is simply junk.

The Ion is much better, but the same thinking that put those crappy components in the Cavalier interior is evident in the Ion. If the rebates were as good as Mazda's, then I probably would have bought the car despite that, because my GMS pricing would put it under 10K with air, which I cannot argue with. However at 13K, I honestly felt that the car was overpriced for the quality it delivers.

In contrast, we bought our L200 in January of 2001 for just under $16,000, fully loaded. That was before the rediculous rebates and 0% financing that followed 9/11, and we still got a 3.9% APR, which was as good as it got at that time except for the traditional GM divisions which had 0% (wouldn't drive anything they were selling). The L200 had some interior components that were very dissappointing after shopping the Accord and Camry, but it was about $2,500 less than either of those cars, no to mention the savings from the cheap financing. The Ion is barely $1,000 cheaper than the better equipped Civic and Corolla, even with my GMS pricing, and that, in my opinion, is just poor value.

dindak

You are mixing up quality and reliability. Reliability is things working with out breaking. Quality is good assembly, nice switches ect. ION quality is good but certainly not top notch. It's reliability is good and probably very close to Toyota/Honda. It's sales/service is top notch, better that Honda/Toyota.

legalsec

din, dun, uga : It's nice to see all of you - still - here and kickin'. I like how the discussion has gotten quite technical yet remains lively - thanks to a regular influx of others' opinions. [Dunworth - Loved the trip to Ontario: Bruce Peninsula NP, Toronto area, then Algonquin Provincial Park. All were beautiful places to behold, especially from my ION2. No hassles at the border.]

lawman : I remember you from a couple months ago when you were car-shopping, and we happen to share similar monikers. You sound embittered - you loved once but it's all over now.... [Fellas, there's no convincing the jilted lawman in re: ION. Give it up. Better luck massaging regfootball - he sounds like he's ready to love again.]

Fender bender: A month ago an uninsured driver in a friggin' Tahoe rearended my little ION2 while we were idling at a red light. A Tahoe fender is wedge-shaped, leaving a concave dent in my back fender. Interestingly, it popped itself back out the following day. If not for the fact that my trunk wouldn't close flush and the warranty requirements, the damage would have gone unnoticed. Cost to repair & replace back fender & parts by ins. co. pro shop: ~$2,000.

Noises: I don't hear the bushing bracket noise that post #2627 complained of. Although the ION2 interior noise is far improved from our previous car ('92 SL1 sedan), I noticed that the outside highway noise - though apparent - becomes less of a nuisance when I crank up my music through my coaxial speakers. Without the music, that wind noise is unmistakable. I don't hear engine noise like I used to - but the downside is that I can no longer diagnose potential problems by listening to how the car sounds.

After going through a weird guilt period where I would badmouth my ION because everyone else does, I realized that I still really like and enjoy driving this car. I am about to get my 3rd oil change along with a scheduled-maintenance tire rotation. I am also wondering how cheaply I can get window tinting and if doing so affects my limited warranty coverage. This car was too cheap to believe and yet feels like a whole lot more car. ...It's all good.

dunworth

Great update! Thanks. Its always nice to hear someone enjoying their new car. No point bad mouthing it, Saturn makes a decent car. My old S series cars never got a decent shake in the automotive press either. Most reviews ranged from luke warm to strong dislike. But I enjoyed them immensely and the ION is a much better car overall than the S series, styling discussions an fuel economy aside.

Also glad you had a good time up here in the Great White North. It does look white today, we got our first real sprinkling of snow here in the Toronto area.

I was looking at the Natural Resources Canada fuel economy ratings for new cars and noticed that they have upgraded the highway fuel economy for a number of vehicles. The ION is one of them. Previously rated at around 29/44 mpg based on imperial gallon for the 5 speed manual, it has now been boosted to 30/47 (US: 25/39). This still ranks below the Civic at 35/50 (US: 29/41)or the Corolla at 40/53 (US: 33/44)but it is better. This guide is pretty accurate in terms of what I have been able to achieve (I usually can better it on the highway by one or two). But it still does not beat my old SLs which, gently driven, could yield an incredible 56 mpg (US 46)on the highway! (Multiply the above figures by 0.83 gives you US mpg).

dindak

No doubt fuel economy is less but you get 140hp so you have to pay for that I guess.

My Ecotec gets about what the ION gets. City is ok, highway is pretty good. Saturn / GM should work on getting better mileage numbers out of the Ecotec IMO.

dunworth

dindak: Yes I agree, GM should be working on the fuel economy numbers. A small car that get crummy city mileage is pointless. The Ecotec fuel economy numbers do make a lot more sense in the Alero et al. My guess is that GM has already thought about a fuel efficient version of the Ecotec which can be introduced if needed. GM cars generally are capable of excellent fuel economy, despite being relatively low tech.

Those Daewoo-based Chevies have pretty terrible mileage numbers for each size class. Ofcourse most feature those low-tech iron block Daewoo engines which are robust but thirsty. Give me a real GM engine any day.

Here is a link on the Redline series Saturns.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - _code=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=04395168

lawman1967

I like the Ion, believe it or not. It is fun to drive and very smooth. My problem with it is value in the base model, which simply cannot compete with the rebates at other brands.

I also maintain that GM is not, and won't like won't ever reach Toyota quality standards. That isn't the be-all, end-all of a good car, but it is important. Other factors, such as bang for buck can overcome it, as they did when I bought out L200.

Incidentally, despite some minor problems, the L200 is running great at 50,000 miles and still looks and feels like it did when new (cheap switchgrear, amazingly comfortable seats and all.

uga91

I have no doubt that someone could shop ION and Echo if they wanted to. The ION is just a larger car; and, even though an ION 1 with no air and manual trans is priced within hundreds of an Echo, I still feel the Corolla is more in line with being a direct competitor (both in size and pricing).

uga91

Great to hear about your experiences. I have taken my ION 2 with auto on a couple of small road trips (less than 500 round trip miles) and I'm happy with the way it drives on the road. It's great to hear that your long trip also went well. That's too bad about your car getting hit--also like mine did. Although, mine was hit harder than yours--so that's good for you. After the repair, I have no rattles or vibrations or anything, so I'm pleased with my repair. Anyway. thanks again for the update--and keep them coming!

dindak

dunworth : Maybe should put the Euro 2.0 Ecotec in the ION instead. That one has better economy numbers I believe.

lawnman : In spite of what Toyota sales people will tell you, Toyotas are not trouble free. While they are about the best in the biz, you have to put it all in perspective. We are talking about a fraction of 1 problem extra per car. What are you comparing with to say the base ION is not a good value vs the competition?

pulgo

You don't seem to like Toyotas very much. I know this is off topic but, is this dislike based on personal experience or what?

uga91

Yes, the Civic and the Corolla are the standard bearers of fuel economy for the compact car class. But, the ION is not a poor performer. If you look at the numbers, you'll see that the ION's numbers compare favorably with other cars of this class like Sentra, Neon, Protege (RIP), and Elantra.

dunworth

Yes you are right that the ION is not different from some of the competition interms of fuel economy. Its just that the old S series was a leader in this area.

lawman1967

is actually about the lowest in the class at 25/30 with automatic, and 25/31 with standard.

My first tank on my 2003 Protege returned 23.5 MPG in mostly city driving, but since it was the gas the dealer gave me, I have no clue if it was REALLY full, or just on F.

My wife's L200 averages about 22 in the city and 30 (best tank 35MPG all freeway) on the highway with the same Ecotec engine as the Ion and a 4-speed automatic, which is pretty good for a midsize car, so I'd guess the Ion should do better given its a lighter car.

regfootball

the L200 4 cyl. supposedly gets good highway mileage from what a dealer told me once. Something like the 35mpg you mentioned.

dindak

I don't dislike Toyotas but I think a lot of people think they are better cars than they are. Fact is I think a lot of their cars are very dull. I love the Celica and 4 Runner but aside from the quality aspect I don't see much to get excited about elsewhere in the line up, especially in cars like the Echo or Camry.

lawman1967

cars are dull, but the quality is every bit as good as the reputation. Saturns are also, sadly, a bit dull, as are most GM, Ford and Honda cars. The Ion has interesting styling (love it or hate it), but it isn't the sort of car that teenage boys sketch in their notebooks or that people speed up to get a better look at.

dindak

Have you heard of the Redline ION and VUE??

I know at least two people who are less than thrilled with their Toyotas. Good cars but not trouble free. I think you are dreaming if you think so.

alpha01

You know a shocking two people who dont like their Toyotas? Gasp! You'd better alert the hundreds of thousands of Toyota owners in Canada and the US.

LOL

~alpha

lawman1967

are still quite ordinary. Teenage boys don't dream about sport versions of economy cars or soccer mom SUVs, they draw low-slung Ferrari's, or souped-up '65 Mustangs. Among modern production cars, even the humble Mini is way out any Saturn's league for "cool factor".

I own a Mazda Protege and a Saturn L200. Both are good cars, and neither is best in its class. Still, I have no illusions that the only car from either manufacturer that might even HINT at being a lust-worthy object is Mazda's RX-8, and even that lacks serious cool.

The Redline? Nice car, but sorry, nowhere near the mark. I think GM's only got one solid and one potential car that can qualify as a sports car to lust after, and that is the Corvette.

I think sporty economy cars are terrific fun, but the 17-year-olds in auto shop will see any of them and just yawn, Redline included.

lawman1967

How many Saturn homecoming thingees did you go to? Come on, admit it.

lawman1967

Altering names was great fun in elementary school, but isn't really becoming of civilized adults. There is no "N" in lawman. I live in a condo, which has neither a lawn nor a yard.

dunworth

OK everyone play nice now

Cars generally in the subcompact class are more fun to drive than say a mid size car. I am not talking about BMWs et al but real cars for most middle class families. Cars like Protege, Lancer and Civic IMHO are more fun to drive than Sentra, Corolla and ION. The former handle better but have a stiffer ride while the latter are a better choice for long highway drives.

Each auto maker has a brand DNA which shows up across their lineup. All Toyotas (my family owns the entire lineup of family cars and many of the light trucks)are superbly well built and offer a soft quiet ride. They are not great handlers but OK. All of them are a bit dull to drive, like most of GMs cars. But I always choose GMs as rentals for long hauls and my Corolla is the car I take for longer highway trips. In a sense Toyota has emulated many of the things that GM is known for (nice quiet ride, solid feel, strong fuel efficient engines etc) and put it in a higher quality package with crisp execution.

dindak

lawnman : Actually for the compact tuner crowd, the ION Redline is getting pretty high marks for performance. It's not suppose to be a "sport car". I get the feeling you don't really understand the market.

alpha : Two people I know. I also people who aren't thrilled with their GM's and Honda's. Point is, Toyota is no different.

lawman1967

Who is that? I haven't ever seen anything posted anywhere in Edmunds by someone using that name.

dunworth

Around Toronto, most tuner vehicles are appearance only. Very few have significant performance modifications other than some changes to the exhaust system and suspension tweaks. Most of these are Honda/Acura products that probably have engines with less horsepower than a stock ION. On the other hand, Honda engines love to rev so they feel (and sound) fast. The performance Civic hatchback (Si-R) has been a sales dud over here (for a Honda). Hopefully the Redline does better.

That Redline beat the Honda speed record by a significant margin. Whether that translates to sales or "cool" factor amongst the tuner crowd has yet to be seen. Prelim sales figures show that ION sales year to date still trail S series sales for the same period last year. Not good for a new model versus a tired 12-year design.
Maybe the Redline will inject some life into the ION's sales.

dindak

I have not seen much advertising for the ION coupe so far in Canada. I have seen some spots on U.S. TV, but pretty limited over all. Red Line models will be available in a couple of months.

dunworth

Anyone see the GM webcast of the new Saturn Relay and Buick Terraza?

The Relay looks nothing like the concept picture posted on Edmunds some time ago. Those pictures had many of the ION design cues including the funky roof rails. This vehicle looks like a cross between a Honda Pilot SUV and a GM Minivan. It looks nothing like an ION and does not appear to be as attractive as the Vue. Still the Saturn looks better than the Buick.

uga91

I watched the web cast. The Relay is the more attractive of the 2, IMO. It does not look anything like the pics in the future vehicles section--as mentioned above. I missed pricing info. Hopefully it will bring new folks to the brand--that and the L300 replacement. That could help the ION.

davethewave1

I found the exterior styling rather blaaa... especially the front. The interior looked nice and it seats 7. Wow...

dunworth

Why is this board so quiet?

Some time ago, someone on this board used a photoshop type program to soften the lines on the ION. Care to post the results?

uga91

This board is either feast or famine.

regfootball

might have been me....maybe not, if i can dig up that pic i will post it.

dunworth

OK let's get the "feast" (as uga calls it) rolling already. What is happening out there in ION world?

I just read that the union at the Spring Hill TN plant, where the ION is produced, has agreed to a new contract that will move it towards the national GM contract with the UAW. The Spring Hill plant was originally set up like a Japanese plant with a no layoff policy. The new agreement will allow layoffs to adjust for weak demand. In exchange, GM will spend $90 million at the plant. I bet it is to improve the ION. Hopefully any changes will not be too little, too late as is evident for the L series.

Like some other UAW "lean" facilities, the main product at the Spring Hill plant is not doing well. Up here in Canada, we have a plant called CAMI that produced Suzuki Swifts (since discontinued) and Vitaras (soon to be discontinued), as well as their GM badge engineered variants. This is a great plant but crippled by the wrong product. It is now being converted to the Chevrolet Equinox which is based on the theta platform used for the Vue, although the two products look nothing alike.

uga91

No news to report on my ION. I'm approaching 8000 miles with no problems. I guess no news is good news.

andre1969

hey gang, I have a co-worker with an ION, and she just came to me with a question. She has the coupe, with the continuously variable tranny.

Do any of you have any complaints about the car feeling like it suddenly, and randomly, loses some of its power? Not like it's going to stall out or anything, but just, out of the blue, it starts losing speed? She says it tends to do that a lot at highway speeds...all of a sudden the car just seems to lose some of its guts, and she'll drop in speed about 5 mph.

I asked her if it did it on hills, or if there was any predictability to when it did it, but she didn't pay attention at the time. She says she will now, though. I'm guessing that she's just coming to a hill, or a long, subtle upgrade even, and not putting her foot on the gas pedal enough, and that's why the car is losing its power.

Is there any "trick" to driving a car with a cvt, versus a 4-speed automatic like her old S-series had? Like, maybe you'd have to hit the gas harder in certain situations?

She is also complaining about poor fuel economy, although I don't know if she's actually tracking it, or just doing the "well it only went x amount of miles on a half tank, where my old car went y amount".

uga91

Don't have the CVT in my sedan. It must have something to do with the fact that the CVT does not have "gears" or something. Sorry.

gweilo

Just trying to get a feel for long term reliability

andre1969

that has an office about a mile and a half from my house. About a year ago, they got about 4 or 5 Ion sedans as company cars. I'm kinda tempted to go in there one day, and ask them how the cars are holding up. If nothing else though, that same plaza has two garages and a body shop, so I guess I could ask those guys too, if they've had to do any work on them yet!

alpha01

I'd be interested to hear thoughts and opinions on the new Chevy Cobalt. On paper and in pictures, this appears to be the car that Saturn/GM wishes the ION was. What gives? The Cobalt seems very nicely executed, especially in the interior design/quality areas. Plenty of engine choices, features, etc. Perhaps GM learned from their mistakes...

~alpha

pat

Hey alpha, let's invite folks over to the 2005 Chevrolet Cobalt/Pontiac Pursuit discussion to respond, okay?

:-)

alpha01

Sorry to stray a bit, and Happy New Year, Pat!

~alpha

dindak

The ION is a good car but I think the interior takes away from it. I suspect the ride on Cobalt will be similar but with the better interior GM won't likely have to slap big incentives on it like ION. I hope Saturn fixed up the ION interior a bit more for 2005.

gweilo

I am considering buying a Saturn but have $3,800 in GM card earnings. It's my understanding that I can transfer these earnings to someone outside my family IF I give someone access to my account. This access apparently can be arranged over the phone with GM and can be closed as soon as the transaction is over..i.e. all in the same day. So...I am considering prowling GM dealer lots and trying to make a deal with prospective buyers to "give" them $800 in discount while I get the remaining $3,000. Seems like they would have to have cash($3,000) on hand since I am not a finacing institution. I would be present for the entire purchase process to assure I don't get screwed. Or..the local Saturn dealership owner also owns a Buick dealership. Think I could make my Saturn purchase contingent on them working a similar deal with a Buick buyer so I could get some use of GM Card earnings?
Anyone tried these or other arrangements?

gweilo

uga91

Why do you want to do that? What benefit do you get from that? It sounds like something I would not want to get involved with. Also, I could be wrong, but I think Saturn limits GM cash from the GM card to $1000. Does anyone else know? As far as 2004 incentives go, it's anyone's guess. I would guess the ION will have a pretty good Down Payment Assistance program in an effort to pump sales. I would also expect good deals on the L300 as this is the last year and they will want to get rid of them. I would not expect too much on the VUE as it is their best seller.

gweilo

Why wouldn't I? I have $3,800 in GM card earnings that I can't apply to a Saturn directly. (Looks like the $1,000 towards Saturn card allowance is only for 2002 and 2003 models.) I also have GMS pricing which can't(recent change) be combined with card earnings but can be combined with incentives. My idea is to get GMS and incentives on the Saturn directly and get some of the card earnings back via the method I mentioned.

uga91

I guess I just don't get it. Hope it works out for you.

benjaminh

I had a Saturn Ion for two days as a rental car in Austin, Texas, and it seemed like a very good car. I was most impressed with the engine, which was strong and powerful. I also liked the the smooth shifting automatic transmission. It seems like GM, more often than the other domestics, gets at least the engine and transmission right. The handling was also very nice, even around sharp corners at a good clip. The exterior styling was bold in the front, and good enough in the rear (it reminded me of the Nissan Altima, which I think is a good looking car).

The center instrument panel seemed like a good design that was unique and instantly comfortable. The controversy about it seemed like much ado about nothing. The lighted tach and speedometer were clear.

Two relatively small negative qualities I noticed with the ION. 1st, the suspension clunked over speed bumps, even when I took them slowly. I assume this is something that could be fixed, although my ION was an 04, and clearly it has not been fixed yet. 2nd, the rear seat seemed to lack in both headroom and legroom compared to the competition.

The trunk, however, seemed as large and as nicely finished as the one in my Honda Accord!

Overall, I would say that the Ion is a car that deserves to be on peoples shopping list. If you can get a good deal on it, it's an impressive entry level car.