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2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Why are you even on this discussion board if those are your feelings?
Still, GM doesn't compete on quality.
Just to add in a comment on cross shopping, I always have cross shopped Saturn, Honda and Toyota (for four separate purchases)- the Saturn was purchased twice. I did not cross shop the other domestics since I was not as confident in Ford and Chrysler products at the time I was shopping.
Chrysler would be on my list now if I needed a larger car or van on the cheap. Ford would be on my list for the van as well. Cross shopping depends on product. If I was buying a van it would be a toss up between the Freestar, the Caravan, Sienna and likely the Saturn when it comes out.
The thing with brands and certain products is that people buy whatever product has served them well and meets their budget. Both times I bought the Saturns, the Japanese stuff was slightly better but smaller and more expensive. GM had served my family well for many years so their products were a safe choice (for me). I certainly knew the difference but was not willing to pay a 25% premium for it.
I no longer buy on price so GM would get consideration only because we have owned so many -but the GM product would have to comparable overall value.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news60/index1.html
Mind you, the ION sold double what the L series did last year so perhaps it was a hit in their eyes. I think Saturn's total sales with all models last year were about the same or less than its best year 10 years ago with only the mighty S series.
By the way, is it just me or has Bob Lutz's effect on GM so far been completely under whelming. Maybe I expected too much from him but I do not love many of GMs current vehicles. The designs are newer but not much less bland, or in some cases down right ugly.
IMHO, many of GM's new vehicles look worse than their predecessor (Grand Prix, regular Malibu, 2003 Cav/Fire refresh, the new minivans, the ION). Anyway at least they are making money, which is good.
There is hope for Saturn. ION is slated for a refresh that may very well include a new dash for 05 models. VUE is solid and the L replacement is due next year. I want Saturn to do well, it's sales and service from what I have seen are a BIG draw for me. I may very well buy a VUE later this year.
I have been doing some web surfing and came across an interesting links regading Saturns and parts for them.
http://www.6thplanetusedparts.com/
Honda engine in the VUE? Wouldn't touch that combo for a year after intro, at least.
So, is the auto on the NOX Honda-sourced as well?
Reply to me, kindly, in the NOX discussion (this is off-subject), since I'll get it and that's been a hotbed for all Saturn model discussions lately.
You didn't get my point.
Then why are u in the ION forum??????
With apologies to Pink Floyd, it sure is quiet around here again.
I wonder if Saturn ION sales will tank even further now that people have seen the Cobalt. Anyone who like the ION's driving experience but wants a more conservatively styled car will likely want to wait. I think the ION coupe is better looking than the sedan but the Cobalt Coupe is really nice.
In Canada we also will get the Pontiac Pursuit Variant and the Daewoo-built Chevy Optra, which is one of the better looking small cars on the market. Again both better looking alternatives to the ION, although I cannot say I was ever overly enamored with the Daewoo's powertrain.
Let us not forget some incredible competition from the likes of the new Mazda3 and other established quality small cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Lancer, Sentra et al.
its easy to find rippable aspects of the Ion (as with any car). But I really thought it drove ok and I liked the shifter and clutch. Solid powertrain too.
If Saturn regroups on the aesthetics, and gets that and the assembly fit and finsih issues solved and redesigned, the negatives won't be so glaring.
Car drives well. Fix up the little issues and materials and you'll have a solid car.
The "fixed" ION is called Cobalt. Both should drive similarly since the platform and powertrain are the same, although there may be some subtle differences in ride based on suspension tuning.
You want "different" and excellent dealer service, buy ION.
You want crisp, conservative and an extensive dealer network - buy Cobalt.
I can not imagine the bean counters over at the General pay for a complete redesign of the ION.
We Canadians are getting a Pontiac variant of the Cobalt, no doubt with the split grill in the front and darker coloured lights at the back. It would not be too difficult to add some superficial Saturn "brand" styling cues to the Cobalt and make the ION sequel (of course no plastic panels).
And maybe rebadge the ION back to the S series which people are more familiar with. The ION name will no doubt be confused with Scion from Toyota which is getting rolled out across the US (but not Canada) and doing a lot better than they expected.
Hey I am looking for ideas here. Let's help GM get the small Saturn sales back on the road. Sure they have all those brainiacs in Detroit but look what they come up with Aztec?, ION? sheesh! (both good vehicles by the way, IMHO they just need help from the styling police).
To sum up the article, Car and Driver seemed to respect the car, more so than its initial Road Test, but still did not have affection toward it.
"Nothing major went wrong and the bottom line is the ION never let us down".
Of course, the complaints found in the road test were also found in this article "During the ION's 18 month stay with us, it did win some praise along with more than equal amounts of criticism".
But, over 40,000 miles, it would seem this article attests to the good car within the ION, and its strong build quality/reliability.
~alpha
What happened to actually giving cars names?
~alpha
Ion question - when will Red Lines show up? I wonder when pricing will be announced.
~alpha
Apparently as an appliance C/D seemed to endorse it then in a 'don't ask don't tell sort of way?'
Its a shame the Ion is an aesthetic mess. The Ion I drove when considered as a 'drive the snot out of it cheap car' wasn't anything that with some TLC couldn't be fixed.
What I liked was the shifter throws and location, a quiet, torquey engine, big useful sunroof, big trunk. Simple layout under the hood.
Gut the exterior, gut the interior, tune the chassis, build it to a higher level of assembly quality ....of course by then you do have your Cobalt, don't you?
~alpha
It's too bad the Ion isn't selling too well. Perhaps a few upgrades and changes to the dash would make things better. Maybe people all want to drive dull cars that all look like the Civic? I have no ideas but people should try the car before dissing it!
Again, check out the C/D article, its a very fair representation of the IONs strengths and weaknesses.
~alpha
By the way, driving wise the current Civic beats the pants off of most car in its class for driveability. Only the new Mazda3 drives better IMHO. I am of course not including souped up compacts like the Subaru or nicer Lancers et al.
Thanks
Those of us old enough to remember GM's other new tech like the diesels and the 4-6-8 are not surprised of course. I can hardly wait for Displacement on Demand and the whopping 6-8% improvement it will bring to fuel economy.
What is a little scary is the three huge recalls during the last week, nearly all on cars they have been making for years. The Cavalier in its 24th year should have no recalls.
They will likely need a sequel to the "Road to Redemption" series of ads, perhaps titled "No really we mean it this time".
I'm loving the pictures of the Pontiac Pursuit BTW. It's a Canada only version of the Ion and it's sweet. Hopefully it comes to the US soon.
As far as GM main being responsible, I think the CVT is a Saturn exclusive..and I don't hear anything about it crossing over into GM models...telling? Also some recent postings on CVT on the VUE board.
And yes, I agree on the notion that "new" technologies have been a challenge for GM, maybe others as well. After many issues with the Impala's "new" aluminum engine cradle, I see they are promoting it in the Buick Lacrosse. Uh..might not want to have the first one of those. Seems to me aluminum doesn't work out too well in mass produced vehicles. I think they changed a manifold in the venerable 3.8 to aluminum and had problems there.
Very sad....the chassis is good, and if they every figure out how to get the transmission to shift right, and discover real build quality, I'll be happy to try them again.
To Saturn's credit, they did not give me a hard time about taking the lemons back - unlike Honda or Mercedes which will fight a lemon law decision to the bitter end.
The first Ion I got developed, unbalanced wheels, cold starting engine missing, and a transmission that grabbed so hard in 3rd gear the wheels squealed (no I am not a race driver).
That was replaced per Saturn 30 day policy with a second Ion that had a roofliner that kept falling down, the same grabby transmission, but a decently working engine. I chose that Ion from at least 5 others, all of which had trim and assembly problems (perhaps California gets the duds?). In all cases the rattles did not show up right away, but increased dramatically as the car aged.
Both saturn service centers I visited commented that rattles were part of the Ions design (my rattles were LOUD! - they heard them easilly). They also managed to damage the Ion one way or another every time they worked on it.
To those that don't mind Saturn rattles, and have good Saturn mechanics, well and good. I miss the car's tight handling,...maybe by 2005, when a redo of the interior is supposed to happen, Saturn will get fit and finish right.