which is why I read the Saturn boards. Its a decent car, but not without troubles. We bought it because I get GMS pricing, combined with the 2001 rebates and financing it was $3500 less than a comparable Accord. The Accord is a much better car, we just couldn't afford one at the time.
Interesting debate on quality. GM has turned the corner and so has Ford and Chrysler to a lesser extent. But appearance-wise the latter two beat GM, nearly model for model. The new Cobalt and Maxx I believe will allow GM to finally compete.
Just to add in a comment on cross shopping, I always have cross shopped Saturn, Honda and Toyota (for four separate purchases)- the Saturn was purchased twice. I did not cross shop the other domestics since I was not as confident in Ford and Chrysler products at the time I was shopping.
Chrysler would be on my list now if I needed a larger car or van on the cheap. Ford would be on my list for the van as well. Cross shopping depends on product. If I was buying a van it would be a toss up between the Freestar, the Caravan, Sienna and likely the Saturn when it comes out.
The thing with brands and certain products is that people buy whatever product has served them well and meets their budget. Both times I bought the Saturns, the Japanese stuff was slightly better but smaller and more expensive. GM had served my family well for many years so their products were a safe choice (for me). I certainly knew the difference but was not willing to pay a 25% premium for it.
I no longer buy on price so GM would get consideration only because we have owned so many -but the GM product would have to comparable overall value.
"Things have improved more recently, however. The Vue sport-utility, first sold in 2002, has been "a very successful vehicle in a very competitive market," said Brodoski. Saturn added a Honda-built V-6 engine to the Vue late last year. And the Ion that replaced the S-Series in 2003 has done well, too."
I thought the same thing when I saw that comment. The ION has not done well. It sold less than the S series in its final year and I think that in its best year, the old S series sold nearly 300,000 units, 2 1/2 times last year's ION sales.
Mind you, the ION sold double what the L series did last year so perhaps it was a hit in their eyes. I think Saturn's total sales with all models last year were about the same or less than its best year 10 years ago with only the mighty S series.
By the way, is it just me or has Bob Lutz's effect on GM so far been completely under whelming. Maybe I expected too much from him but I do not love many of GMs current vehicles. The designs are newer but not much less bland, or in some cases down right ugly.
IMHO, many of GM's new vehicles look worse than their predecessor (Grand Prix, regular Malibu, 2003 Cav/Fire refresh, the new minivans, the ION). Anyway at least they are making money, which is good.
Malibu / Maxx is a really nice car though and the G6, Cobalt, Solstice and Equinox all look to be very attractive vehicles. ION is a decent car but it's just not a breakthrough like the Mazda 3. I suspect the Cobalt will be everything ION should have been.
There is hope for Saturn. ION is slated for a refresh that may very well include a new dash for 05 models. VUE is solid and the L replacement is due next year. I want Saturn to do well, it's sales and service from what I have seen are a BIG draw for me. I may very well buy a VUE later this year.
The new design L's are actually pretty decent cars but they have a bad reputation and Saturn seems to have given up on them. I only ever see ads for VUE and ION.
It's the same drive train (yes, the transmission is Japanese as well) that Honda uses in the Odyssey, Pilot and Acura MDX. I would touch one in a heart beat if I were in the market for such a vehicle.
The ION '05 might be on my shopping list. And because I'm also remotely interested in the Cobalt, which seems to be the hot topic in here, rather than there....
I wonder if Saturn ION sales will tank even further now that people have seen the Cobalt. Anyone who like the ION's driving experience but wants a more conservatively styled car will likely want to wait. I think the ION coupe is better looking than the sedan but the Cobalt Coupe is really nice.
In Canada we also will get the Pontiac Pursuit Variant and the Daewoo-built Chevy Optra, which is one of the better looking small cars on the market. Again both better looking alternatives to the ION, although I cannot say I was ever overly enamored with the Daewoo's powertrain.
Let us not forget some incredible competition from the likes of the new Mazda3 and other established quality small cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Lancer, Sentra et al.
yeah, but the Ion has center gauges. that should be a big draw......
its easy to find rippable aspects of the Ion (as with any car). But I really thought it drove ok and I liked the shifter and clutch. Solid powertrain too.
If Saturn regroups on the aesthetics, and gets that and the assembly fit and finsih issues solved and redesigned, the negatives won't be so glaring.
The "fixed" ION is called Cobalt. Both should drive similarly since the platform and powertrain are the same, although there may be some subtle differences in ride based on suspension tuning.
You want "different" and excellent dealer service, buy ION.
You want crisp, conservative and an extensive dealer network - buy Cobalt.
I can not imagine the bean counters over at the General pay for a complete redesign of the ION.
We Canadians are getting a Pontiac variant of the Cobalt, no doubt with the split grill in the front and darker coloured lights at the back. It would not be too difficult to add some superficial Saturn "brand" styling cues to the Cobalt and make the ION sequel (of course no plastic panels).
And maybe rebadge the ION back to the S series which people are more familiar with. The ION name will no doubt be confused with Scion from Toyota which is getting rolled out across the US (but not Canada) and doing a lot better than they expected.
Hey I am looking for ideas here. Let's help GM get the small Saturn sales back on the road. Sure they have all those brainiacs in Detroit but look what they come up with Aztec?, ION? sheesh! (both good vehicles by the way, IMHO they just need help from the styling police).
The loyal Saturnisti, as I believe they are called, would do well to pick up the March issue of Car and Driver, which contains a very telling long-term test of the ION. (I think most will find this issue a very interesting one as well, even aside from the ION article, as it has many good road tests, a fun $35K sports sedan comparo, and is thanfully free from "tuner" cars of any sort).
To sum up the article, Car and Driver seemed to respect the car, more so than its initial Road Test, but still did not have affection toward it.
"Nothing major went wrong and the bottom line is the ION never let us down".
Of course, the complaints found in the road test were also found in this article "During the ION's 18 month stay with us, it did win some praise along with more than equal amounts of criticism".
But, over 40,000 miles, it would seem this article attests to the good car within the ION, and its strong build quality/reliability.
not included b/c the 3.6L is not available with the manual tranny yet, and any repeat test cars had revisions... (the exception being the IS, except that in the last manual sport sedan comparo, the IS was unavailable with performance wheels/tires, which this one had). Price cap at $35,000 prohibited the 330i, and thus, the BMW 325i was tested. You're right, either the TL or the G35 finished first, and the X was last, despite a huge price drop this year.
Apparently as an appliance C/D seemed to endorse it then in a 'don't ask don't tell sort of way?'
Its a shame the Ion is an aesthetic mess. The Ion I drove when considered as a 'drive the snot out of it cheap car' wasn't anything that with some TLC couldn't be fixed.
What I liked was the shifter throws and location, a quiet, torquey engine, big useful sunroof, big trunk. Simple layout under the hood.
Gut the exterior, gut the interior, tune the chassis, build it to a higher level of assembly quality ....of course by then you do have your Cobalt, don't you?
Glad to see that the ION did well in the C/D long term test at least from a reliability perspective. My two Saturns were bullet proof and everyone that I knew who had one had good luck with them. It was not until later that I heard, that on average, the S series were not considered all that reliable.
Lots of putting down of the Ion here since I was last on. No the Ion may not be the best car in the world, but ours has been completely trouble free and it drives great. Top that off with premium dealer sales and service and we are happy folks!!
It's too bad the Ion isn't selling too well. Perhaps a few upgrades and changes to the dash would make things better. Maybe people all want to drive dull cars that all look like the Civic? I have no ideas but people should try the car before dissing it!
Who's "putting down" the ION? I thought conversations/postings have been pretty positive lately. Perhaps youre reading statements of fact as negative opinions?
Again, check out the C/D article, its a very fair representation of the IONs strengths and weaknesses.
Vuefor2 No-one is dumping on the ION. I merely brought up the fact that sales have fallen well short of the S series in its heyday, and that there is little point in changing the ION if the Cobalt is already in the GM porfolio. The latter plays to the existing ION strengths like powertrain and ride, while adding in crisper more conservative (but evergreen)styling like the Civic, Corolla and Jetta.
By the way, driving wise the current Civic beats the pants off of most car in its class for driveability. Only the new Mazda3 drives better IMHO. I am of course not including souped up compacts like the Subaru or nicer Lancers et al.
Mazda 3 is nice except for that HUGE mazda logo on the back, yuk! Seems to be the trend though. Hopefully the Cobalt won't have too big a bow tie on it.
Logo is just right on the Cobalt. Actually I really like the Saturn logo. If the ION had a normal looking front like the old SL or a real grill like the L series it could feature quite prominently.
Lease is up soon on my L200. We are thinking of getting an ION3 with all the toys. The L has been Okay (not as good as our SL2). Has anyone traded their L for an ION? Did you find the back seat a lot smaller than the L? Is the car noisier? Does the ION handle better? Thanks
I don't have any experience with the L300 myself. But, after owning 2 SL2s in the past, my ION is my much more comfortable and larger than they were. You can compare cars here on Edmunds and that will give you the size differences of the back seats. This is the last year of the L-Series (or is it next year?), so, unless you don't mind owning a car that has been discontinued, I think that makes the ION more attractive over a new L right now. Of course, that's all things being even. Good luck to you!
I looked at the ION 3 vs L300 level 1 just because I was curious. I chose the level 1 because it had the same 4 cyl engine and a price tag almost the same as an ION 3. I think the L300 level 1 is a pretty good deal. The L300 has a bigger trunk, a bigger gas tank, its wheelbase is 3" longer and the car is 1.5" wider. That translates into the L300 having 4" more rear shoulder room, 5" more rear hip room and 2" more rear leg room. The L300 also has as standard equipment: 4 wheel anti-lock disc brakes, traction control, front and rear head air bags, 4 wheel independent suspension, heated external mirrors, illuminated vanity mirrors and floor mats. These items are optional on the ION 3--and some of them are not available at all. I guess Saturn does give you a lot to think about with this car.
According to folks in saturnfans, CVT in QC ION and Vue is being "temporarily" put on hold until issues are dealt with. 5 spd auto instead until further notice. I guess I was right in asking about it before..unfortunately.
Gee there is a surprise, GM did not do enough testing on new technology - who would have thought? I think Saturn did a better job on its own before the General decided to make it part of the happy family.
Those of us old enough to remember GM's other new tech like the diesels and the 4-6-8 are not surprised of course. I can hardly wait for Displacement on Demand and the whopping 6-8% improvement it will bring to fuel economy.
What is a little scary is the three huge recalls during the last week, nearly all on cars they have been making for years. The Cavalier in its 24th year should have no recalls.
They will likely need a sequel to the "Road to Redemption" series of ads, perhaps titled "No really we mean it this time".
Problem with car makers these days is they are always awarding new contracts to the lowest bidder in order to cut costs. A new contract to get cheaper starters for example could just yield bad ones. You know GM will go after the manufacturer for $$ to cover the cost of replacing them all.
I'm loving the pictures of the Pontiac Pursuit BTW. It's a Canada only version of the Ion and it's sweet. Hopefully it comes to the US soon.
I saw a long term Ion review in the new Car and Driver at lunch today. They seemed to really like the Ion for the most part and with 40k on the odometer, they had no problems at all. They also seemed surprised how good the car was in spite of a few drawbacks.
When discussing the ION, it is helpful to denote which version(sedan, Quad Coupe etc.) is the subject. I believe the C&D review was on the sedan..which tranny? As the CVT issue suggests, differences in powertrains may add or detract from reliability. Of course, this will get trickier now that they are building quad coupes with the 5 spd auto. i.e. the listed specs are being deviated from. As far as GM main being responsible, I think the CVT is a Saturn exclusive..and I don't hear anything about it crossing over into GM models...telling? Also some recent postings on CVT on the VUE board.
And yes, I agree on the notion that "new" technologies have been a challenge for GM, maybe others as well. After many issues with the Impala's "new" aluminum engine cradle, I see they are promoting it in the Buick Lacrosse. Uh..might not want to have the first one of those. Seems to me aluminum doesn't work out too well in mass produced vehicles. I think they changed a manifold in the venerable 3.8 to aluminum and had problems there.
The shoddy build quality CD mentioned showed up in spades on the two ION's I tried over 9 months (my brothers' is no better). Both ended up rattletraps as the dash, doors, roof and rear deck rattled and buzzed over every bump. The two dealers' service only managed to successively damage the interiors to the point the cars were declared lemons (don't they TRAIN service techs any more???).
Very sad....the chassis is good, and if they every figure out how to get the transmission to shift right, and discover real build quality, I'll be happy to try them again.
To Saturn's credit, they did not give me a hard time about taking the lemons back - unlike Honda or Mercedes which will fight a lemon law decision to the bitter end.
I also had the pleasure to drive the new Honda engined VUE. The engine was powerful and quiet, as the VUE was rattling and squeaking around it, more in 5 minutes than the Malibu Maxxes I drove did in a whole day. Saturn has not learned build quality yet.
Kurtamaxxguy: So are you saying you have owned at least four vehicles that you have tried to evoke the lemon law on? Was the Honda and Mercedes also just interior noise problems or did they have real mechanical problems? I guess that is one advantage of hearing loss, the rattles on my saturn don't bother me at all.
The honda I owned was many years ago, and there was no lemon law at that time (its problem was a 3-barrel carb that kept boiling over and vapor locking - honda said it was "normal"). I have ridden but not owned recent Mercedes - they were quiet if cheaply finished.
The first Ion I got developed, unbalanced wheels, cold starting engine missing, and a transmission that grabbed so hard in 3rd gear the wheels squealed (no I am not a race driver). That was replaced per Saturn 30 day policy with a second Ion that had a roofliner that kept falling down, the same grabby transmission, but a decently working engine. I chose that Ion from at least 5 others, all of which had trim and assembly problems (perhaps California gets the duds?). In all cases the rattles did not show up right away, but increased dramatically as the car aged.
Both saturn service centers I visited commented that rattles were part of the Ions design (my rattles were LOUD! - they heard them easilly). They also managed to damage the Ion one way or another every time they worked on it.
To those that don't mind Saturn rattles, and have good Saturn mechanics, well and good. I miss the car's tight handling,...maybe by 2005, when a redo of the interior is supposed to happen, Saturn will get fit and finish right.
kurtamaxxguy :::: I dispute your claim that the Vue has rattles. Ours is getting on 2 years old and has none. I have not read of anyone else complaining about them either.
Comments
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Why are you even on this discussion board if those are your feelings?
Still, GM doesn't compete on quality.
Just to add in a comment on cross shopping, I always have cross shopped Saturn, Honda and Toyota (for four separate purchases)- the Saturn was purchased twice. I did not cross shop the other domestics since I was not as confident in Ford and Chrysler products at the time I was shopping.
Chrysler would be on my list now if I needed a larger car or van on the cheap. Ford would be on my list for the van as well. Cross shopping depends on product. If I was buying a van it would be a toss up between the Freestar, the Caravan, Sienna and likely the Saturn when it comes out.
The thing with brands and certain products is that people buy whatever product has served them well and meets their budget. Both times I bought the Saturns, the Japanese stuff was slightly better but smaller and more expensive. GM had served my family well for many years so their products were a safe choice (for me). I certainly knew the difference but was not willing to pay a 25% premium for it.
I no longer buy on price so GM would get consideration only because we have owned so many -but the GM product would have to comparable overall value.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news60/index1.html
Mind you, the ION sold double what the L series did last year so perhaps it was a hit in their eyes. I think Saturn's total sales with all models last year were about the same or less than its best year 10 years ago with only the mighty S series.
By the way, is it just me or has Bob Lutz's effect on GM so far been completely under whelming. Maybe I expected too much from him but I do not love many of GMs current vehicles. The designs are newer but not much less bland, or in some cases down right ugly.
IMHO, many of GM's new vehicles look worse than their predecessor (Grand Prix, regular Malibu, 2003 Cav/Fire refresh, the new minivans, the ION). Anyway at least they are making money, which is good.
There is hope for Saturn. ION is slated for a refresh that may very well include a new dash for 05 models. VUE is solid and the L replacement is due next year. I want Saturn to do well, it's sales and service from what I have seen are a BIG draw for me. I may very well buy a VUE later this year.
I have been doing some web surfing and came across an interesting links regading Saturns and parts for them.
http://www.6thplanetusedparts.com/
Honda engine in the VUE? Wouldn't touch that combo for a year after intro, at least.
So, is the auto on the NOX Honda-sourced as well?
Reply to me, kindly, in the NOX discussion (this is off-subject), since I'll get it and that's been a hotbed for all Saturn model discussions lately.
You didn't get my point.
Then why are u in the ION forum??????
With apologies to Pink Floyd, it sure is quiet around here again.
I wonder if Saturn ION sales will tank even further now that people have seen the Cobalt. Anyone who like the ION's driving experience but wants a more conservatively styled car will likely want to wait. I think the ION coupe is better looking than the sedan but the Cobalt Coupe is really nice.
In Canada we also will get the Pontiac Pursuit Variant and the Daewoo-built Chevy Optra, which is one of the better looking small cars on the market. Again both better looking alternatives to the ION, although I cannot say I was ever overly enamored with the Daewoo's powertrain.
Let us not forget some incredible competition from the likes of the new Mazda3 and other established quality small cars like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Lancer, Sentra et al.
its easy to find rippable aspects of the Ion (as with any car). But I really thought it drove ok and I liked the shifter and clutch. Solid powertrain too.
If Saturn regroups on the aesthetics, and gets that and the assembly fit and finsih issues solved and redesigned, the negatives won't be so glaring.
Car drives well. Fix up the little issues and materials and you'll have a solid car.
The "fixed" ION is called Cobalt. Both should drive similarly since the platform and powertrain are the same, although there may be some subtle differences in ride based on suspension tuning.
You want "different" and excellent dealer service, buy ION.
You want crisp, conservative and an extensive dealer network - buy Cobalt.
I can not imagine the bean counters over at the General pay for a complete redesign of the ION.
We Canadians are getting a Pontiac variant of the Cobalt, no doubt with the split grill in the front and darker coloured lights at the back. It would not be too difficult to add some superficial Saturn "brand" styling cues to the Cobalt and make the ION sequel (of course no plastic panels).
And maybe rebadge the ION back to the S series which people are more familiar with. The ION name will no doubt be confused with Scion from Toyota which is getting rolled out across the US (but not Canada) and doing a lot better than they expected.
Hey I am looking for ideas here. Let's help GM get the small Saturn sales back on the road. Sure they have all those brainiacs in Detroit but look what they come up with Aztec?, ION? sheesh! (both good vehicles by the way, IMHO they just need help from the styling police).
To sum up the article, Car and Driver seemed to respect the car, more so than its initial Road Test, but still did not have affection toward it.
"Nothing major went wrong and the bottom line is the ION never let us down".
Of course, the complaints found in the road test were also found in this article "During the ION's 18 month stay with us, it did win some praise along with more than equal amounts of criticism".
But, over 40,000 miles, it would seem this article attests to the good car within the ION, and its strong build quality/reliability.
~alpha
What happened to actually giving cars names?
~alpha
Ion question - when will Red Lines show up? I wonder when pricing will be announced.
~alpha
Apparently as an appliance C/D seemed to endorse it then in a 'don't ask don't tell sort of way?'
Its a shame the Ion is an aesthetic mess. The Ion I drove when considered as a 'drive the snot out of it cheap car' wasn't anything that with some TLC couldn't be fixed.
What I liked was the shifter throws and location, a quiet, torquey engine, big useful sunroof, big trunk. Simple layout under the hood.
Gut the exterior, gut the interior, tune the chassis, build it to a higher level of assembly quality ....of course by then you do have your Cobalt, don't you?
~alpha
It's too bad the Ion isn't selling too well. Perhaps a few upgrades and changes to the dash would make things better. Maybe people all want to drive dull cars that all look like the Civic? I have no ideas but people should try the car before dissing it!
Again, check out the C/D article, its a very fair representation of the IONs strengths and weaknesses.
~alpha
By the way, driving wise the current Civic beats the pants off of most car in its class for driveability. Only the new Mazda3 drives better IMHO. I am of course not including souped up compacts like the Subaru or nicer Lancers et al.
Thanks
Those of us old enough to remember GM's other new tech like the diesels and the 4-6-8 are not surprised of course. I can hardly wait for Displacement on Demand and the whopping 6-8% improvement it will bring to fuel economy.
What is a little scary is the three huge recalls during the last week, nearly all on cars they have been making for years. The Cavalier in its 24th year should have no recalls.
They will likely need a sequel to the "Road to Redemption" series of ads, perhaps titled "No really we mean it this time".
I'm loving the pictures of the Pontiac Pursuit BTW. It's a Canada only version of the Ion and it's sweet. Hopefully it comes to the US soon.
As far as GM main being responsible, I think the CVT is a Saturn exclusive..and I don't hear anything about it crossing over into GM models...telling? Also some recent postings on CVT on the VUE board.
And yes, I agree on the notion that "new" technologies have been a challenge for GM, maybe others as well. After many issues with the Impala's "new" aluminum engine cradle, I see they are promoting it in the Buick Lacrosse. Uh..might not want to have the first one of those. Seems to me aluminum doesn't work out too well in mass produced vehicles. I think they changed a manifold in the venerable 3.8 to aluminum and had problems there.
Very sad....the chassis is good, and if they every figure out how to get the transmission to shift right, and discover real build quality, I'll be happy to try them again.
To Saturn's credit, they did not give me a hard time about taking the lemons back - unlike Honda or Mercedes which will fight a lemon law decision to the bitter end.
The first Ion I got developed, unbalanced wheels, cold starting engine missing, and a transmission that grabbed so hard in 3rd gear the wheels squealed (no I am not a race driver).
That was replaced per Saturn 30 day policy with a second Ion that had a roofliner that kept falling down, the same grabby transmission, but a decently working engine. I chose that Ion from at least 5 others, all of which had trim and assembly problems (perhaps California gets the duds?). In all cases the rattles did not show up right away, but increased dramatically as the car aged.
Both saturn service centers I visited commented that rattles were part of the Ions design (my rattles were LOUD! - they heard them easilly). They also managed to damage the Ion one way or another every time they worked on it.
To those that don't mind Saturn rattles, and have good Saturn mechanics, well and good. I miss the car's tight handling,...maybe by 2005, when a redo of the interior is supposed to happen, Saturn will get fit and finish right.