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Comments
I work for a major electronics supplier for autmotive. I see first hand the issue, you either lead or follow. The Europeans tend to lead and push the technology limits with their automobiles, the Japanese are like Michael Dell, make it more of a commodity item. I look at things like Active Steering/Suspensions, drive by wire, fiberoptic networks, Engine/7 spd Tranny tech. Sure the Japanese have their tech areas, especially when sponsored by their government i.e...Hybrids. But look at how long it took them to develope Minivans to compete with big 3...15 years??....1984 - 1999 (when Honda finally got it right). The Japanese tend to build on what they have, improving quality but not pushing limits.
The current Ody engine/tranny is proof of this. Their 3.5L isn't changing at all in lesser 05 models, oh they tweaked the HP ratings to 255 via programming changes in ECU. Note the frame/unibody of the Ody....does something look familar with that lazy suzy?? Didn't the previous 04 Ody have it's spare tire in a circular hole in that same spot??? VCM is neat tech but what about long term when 3 cylinders have 40k miles on them while the others are at 100k miles???? Thats where the Europeans get in trouble.
Where does the Big 3 stand? I believe they do the bare minimum to sell product. Keep it simple, don't invest too much $$$$ and get it out the door. Look at the new Freestar and Uplander.....freshened 8-10 year old designs!! GM didn't even try to compete with the Japanese - just throw in a new Instrument panel and throw an ugly big nose on the front - call it new!!! Ford gets a little credit with fold in floor seats. DCX is trying harder than the others ....stow n go, investing a little more $$$. They have to, Minivans are their lifeblood!!
This may come as a surprise for some, but owning an SUV vs Minivan is NOT a manhoon issue for many people. Many SUV owners need the towing capability, or AWD or prefer the more rugged construction (frame vs. unibody) or perceived sense of security.
FYI - the Mini Cooper has only it's name in common with the previous British version, nothing else.
Mercedes is soon coming out with the "R" class...Minivan/people mover, AWD. BMW's will probably be AWD also. They've been slow moving as to not dilute their Brand's images, just to push a product or fill a niche.
I've found that those who talk about manhood, ego or insecurity are usually the ones with such issues. I own the BMW cause I love driving it period, it's a "lowly" 3 series that cost less than a Honda Minvan for sure. The handling is simply incredible. Quality has been exceptional. My DCX van is an appliance plain and simple. I don't care what people think of either of them, they fit me.
There is no need to change your minivan if you have so little miles on it unless something catasthropic happens to it like my FORD Winnie about a year ago. My then 8 yr old Winnie only had 54K miles when the engine began knocking. Why spend $4-5K on a new engine for a vehicle worth less than that? No-brainer, Mon. So I got the Ody.
My current 10yr old Continental only has 48K miles and looks like new with absolutely no parking lot dents. Its 32Valve V8 engine is a very strong performer. Since I travel on business by air a lot and my work commute is only 8 miles return when I am home, my Conti does less than 5K miles/yr. It has been relatively trouble-free after a few early years of bugs removal. It has been fully paid for 8 yrs ago and that feels good. It could last me another 10yrs unless something catasthropic happens. So I am in no hurry to change it.
Great examples right before our eyes:
1.) Cars
2.) Cameras
3.) Watches
4.) TVs
to name a few.
Anyone who does not associate quality with Japanese goods would not be aware of the gurus, Drs. Deming and Juran, Americans, who taught the Japanese.
It did give me a chance to checkout up close the Dodge Stow and Go seats. I think they are a really nifty design and quite comfortable and very easy to stow. Firmer than the old non stowable Caravan seats, of which I am very familiar, but very comfortable.
I think D-C did a very nice job with this feature, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the other manufacturers copy the center row stow and go concept on their next redesigns.
All vehicles are "people movers". If you prefer to think of your DCX van as nothing but "an appliance plain and simple"...then why not get rid
of it? Get yourself one of them nice big SUV's that seat 8.People on these minivans boards usually like minivans.You obviously don't. Sounds like you're more interested in talking about your BMW.They have boards for that elsewhere.
Sorry but minivans are not an emotional vehicle for many if anybody - grocery getter, hauling kids....and that's my reason for having it. There's no passion in these, they're not overly fun to drive. (and I've driven many Hondas).
Nooo I LOVE my minivan as an appliance, it's perfect! It does all I ask of it, what I bought it for.
My only complaint, they seem a little smaller.
I happen to rearrange my seats a lot, I have your basic overstuffed garage so finding space etc...is no longer an issue. I'm sure other Minivans will follow DCX and improve upon them (well maybe not Ford or GM since that might cost them $$$$).
As far as Honda's marketing edge, it sounds more like Honda's "spin" because they don't have this feature in their second row. Kind of reminds me of DaimlerChrysler's "spin" when they did not introduce stowable third row seating on their previous redesign. DaimlerChrysler's "marketing edge" at the time was that the stowable cavity introduced too much road noise into the cabin.
This time around, DaimlerChrysler took care to try to equal or improve on the noise level by implementing quiet steel into the steet storage box design. which is a dual layer of steel with sound dampening/absorbing material sandwitched in between. They also used higher tech memory foam on the cushions to allow lower profile with hopefully little compromise in comfort.
Seat comfort is highly dependent on individual preferences, however. Some like the overstuffed seats of the boulevard cruisers of yesteryear. For others, firmer is preferred.
Basically every manufacturer covers their shortcomings with marketing "spin".
On our '96 Caravan, I probably have occasion to remove the second row captains seats 3-4 times a year, and though this is not often, those second row seats are quite heavy and a bit of a beast to get in and out of the van.
I think the stow and goes are a nice feature, and I don't see the comfort compromised much, if at all.
I couldn't agree more with you!
Another good point you bring up....price difference. Without argument the Honda has superior resale than anything else in it's class, BUT, if you take the $6000 - $10,000 you're saving vs something else, and add that to resale at the end of 4 or 5 years...What's the total cost of ownership??
Actually, if you want the True Cost to Own, Edmunds has that feature on this site. You should try it and see what comes up. I did one for the Honda vs. T&C and after 5 years the Honda was ahead by, if I recall correctly, at least $2500 to $3000 dollars.
If I get time I will find those reviews that ding the T&C second row seats.
Keep in mind the T&C was in my top 3 vans. We bought an Ody, but liked the T&C. I'm just reporting what I read (and also felt when I test drove).
With just MSRP pricing, the Honda is $0.49/mile, the DCX is $0.55/mile.
Haven't found where the comparison tool allows us to enter our own specific numbers???
As they will with the vast majority of minivan drivers. That's why this notion of it not being confortable enough isn't a major issue. It is for some people, but clearly not most. Just look at the DCX sales numbers the last few months
This idea is on the wish list but it may take a while to implement.
Steve, Host
The problem is refining the oil. US refineries are ancient, and new ones haven't been built in decades.
please do...would be a great feature
"As they will with the vast majority of minivan drivers. That's why this notion of it not being confortable enough isn't a major issue. It is for some people, but clearly not most. Just look at the DCX sales numbers the last few months."
Actually, I have made the opposite point. Why buy a van with 2nd row Stow n Go if car seats are in that row 95% of the time? And when you no longer need the car seats, you sill will need the secodn row, so why not get second row seats that are comfortable? As for DCX sales numbers, that issue has been addressed many times. It's apples and oranges vs, the imports.
There are a lot of bells and whistles on current vehicles that one could make the same point. For instance, 99% of the time, I never open any of my windows. I use AC when it is hot and heat when it is cold. Does that mean all the automakers should not offer power windows? 90% or more of the time I don't use cruise control either, so should it not be nearly standard equipment on everything?
D-C came up with a great industry leading feature with both rows stowable, and yet there is a lot of denial shown here by those who don't think Detroit can do anything right.
The flexibility is always there. If you need to transport something large, you only have t o take out the car seats, not the entire seat. And someone with toddlers will never have them actually touch the seat - it will be a standard car seat and then booster for the life of the car. Unless you keep you car for over 10 years, there will be something there
"As for DCX sales numbers, that issue has been addressed many times. It's apples and oranges vs, the imports. "
My statement was in regards to the fact that DC stopped a several years long sales slide for their minivans by introducing stow and go, and the sales have kept increasing lately, despite a hot new competitor. Supporting the notion that the public, in general, likes them
This was about 3 weeks ago on NPR... the oil reserves in Saudi Arabia specifically.
As for people buying SUVs, come visit Long Island. At least 90% have no clue how to even begin to tow something, and the most people they take around is their one or two small children. It's all insane, and to get 12mpg HWY. Here it's all about image, and perceived safety. Meanwhile a great number of newer "SUVs" are car based anyway, so the body-on-frame argument doesn't really apply....at least where I live. I'm just hoping that America regains its sanity again where SUVs are concerned. I'll take my safety "chances" with a more nimble vehicle that returns better gas mileage, better comfort, and most of the time even more interior space. The stupidity of ego is truly astounding.
I agree 100%, that's why I have a minivan...I sit up high, great vision, more space, better ride, better gas mileage. If it snows, i wait a few hours for roads to clear. BUT...for whatever reason someone desires an SUV or 2 seat sports car or Harley....as long as they can afford it, let em buy it. People could look at Minivan drivers and say the same things....wasteful, too large, only 2 kids in them, and only 20 mpg!! We should all have bikes like China!!
To this day minivans are probably my favorite vehicle for those precise reasons. Minivans give you the interior room, good field of vision, room for a crowd, surprisngly good control and acceleration, and ruggedness.
See what a government education will get you?
It wasn't JUST 'dinos'. Hydrocarbons are from the decomposition of ALL organic matter, not just 'dinos'. You have any idea how many dinos, fish, insects, trees, bushes, etc. etc. would be involved in a process spanning hundreds of millions of years? That would be A LOT of organic matter.
BTW - agee with you on nukes. Hydrogen may make a dandy fuel for a clean automobile, but what about the process to generate the hydrogen? One doesn't just pump hydrogen out of the ground; it takes energy (and a lot of it) to produce. Do we really want to exchange regular gas burning vehicles for coal-fired plants built to produce hydrogen? How clean is that?
Rumor has it that the energy reserves contained within the oil shale rival those of the Saudi petroleum reserves but are not as cheap to extract.
For now, the gasoline powered minivan is one of the most efficient people movers produced.
Steve, Host
There are many reasons people bought the van that they have. It might be because of price, reliability, features, looks, name, etc.
It makes little difference which minivan you bought, as long as your happy with it. But your all pretty smart buying a minivan.
You have a vehicle there that rides and handles like a car. That can hold seven or more people ( that makes it great when family or friends drop in from out of state and you want to show them the town. No going out and renting one)
Your minivan, in a lot of situations, can hold as much or more stuff, as a pickup truck. You can pull a small trailer or boat with it too.
You have enough room to haul not only the kids, but a big dog and not have the dog sit on the seats, clawing at the cushions.
You can take out the middle seats,( or if it's a new Dodge/Chrysler, fold the seats into the floor and you can sleep in it when taking long trips.
The wife can get up out of her passenger seat and check on the kids in the back without having to stop the van and get out and climb back in to do it. Much like a motor home.
You'll get better mileage than a pickup or SUV.
Although a minivan is big, it doesn't tend to roll over like a SUV does and insurance is cheaper than most SUV's, trucks and cars.
So, unless your planning to go off roading, buying a minivan was one of the smartest moves you made. You can do just about anything in a minivan that you can do in a car, truck or SUV put together. In many cases, do it for less. Best thing of all, your ready for just about anything that comes up. See how smart you all are?
Very well put marine2. All of us minivan buyers are geniuses. Even though my Mazda MPV got a bit of a black eye in this recent Consumer Reports fiasco on reliability....I love it.Family had a station wagon before...but minivan much more versatile.All you minivan shopper out there. Good choice....and good luck!
The primary reason for our minivan ownership is for the flexibility, practicality, versatility and comfort while doing so.
It has been said somewhere that many SUV owners wish their vehicles offer the same flexibility, practicality, versatility and comfort BUT their ego(manhood, being fashionable, etc) won't allow them.
Well don't leave me hanging. I'm just dying to know how you think you can generate hydrogen cheaply enough to compete with gasoline as a fuel source. But don't tell me here, go to the "Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars" thread in the "Hyrid Vehicles" board.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars
Steve, Host
Mine: Styling.
If I say the drivetrain is torquey, reliable and gets decent mpg, does that still count as one?
Steve, Host
Total Passenger Comfort
Perceived Value (performance/safety features/comfort/reliability vs. purchase price)
How's that for "one" attribute?
8^)
Actual Value (separately controlled temperature for driver, front passenger, rear passengers/fuel economy/quiet ride/low initial cost to me).
However, if I were buying a NEW 2005 minivan it would probably be a 2005 Odyssey EX (cloth).
Rear spoiler...ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM !!
In dash 6 CD/DVD changer (plus another slot for the NAV)