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Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

145791073

Comments

  • If you look at his posting history, concerning DC vans, all Macakava does is flame. We are all lost, and those that buy Ody's have "seen the light."
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 6,030
    ...for the Easter Bunny. The article "Warranty
    As A Weapon" says that the extended warranty is a statement by the seller that their products are free from defects and will remain so for the specified period of warranty. The perception is that the longer the warranty... the better quality of whatever you are buying is. This goes for cars as well as furniture or appliances.So, using this logic the Kia Sedona would be of the best quality and reliability...and the Honda Ody the worst.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • "So, using this logic the Kia Sedona would be of the best quality and reliability...and the Honda Ody the worst."

    Exactly. I don't know who wrote that article, but the fact is, products with quality problems often offer an EW to persuade prospective buyers to "take a chance." Having a longer warranty means the opposite of having better quality. A number of people have posted on these boards that BECAUSE of Honda/Toyota's rep for quality they will NOT bother with an EW because they think they won't need it. If enough people feel that way, Honda/Toyota has no real financial incentive to increase the length of basic warranties or push EWs. The swwet spot is to buy a brand when it has just reached a high-quality level but still offers a very good warranty because of past problems. Best of both worlds.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    Then the sweet spot must be a Korean car (perhaps not the Kia though, even though Hyundai owns a majority share in Kia?):

    Hyundai ties Honda in quality survey (CNN Money)

    Steve, Host
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    "So, using this logic the Kia Sedona would be of the best quality and reliability...and the Honda Ody the worst."

    Only fools will rush in to buy based on that where angels fear to tread...

    Advertisers recognise that consumers are very gullible.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Denver,

    You hit it right on the head!

    You are thinking like the smart, savvy business folks at Honda/Toyota!
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Even though that may be true, Hyundai/Kia does not have the sophisticated/refined handling and fun to drive of a Honda or even a Toyota.

    It would be much easier for a Hyundai owner with the financial means to trade up to a Honda/Toyota than a Honda/Toyota owner to accept trading down.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    Heh, know all the car spy photos where the cars are camouflaged with plastic and duck tape? I think we need a Coke/Pepsi test where a panel of folks test drives a few minivans that are sufficiently cloaked inside and out to make them basically indistinguishable, and then see how they rate.

    Without badging, many minivans are indistinguishable on the outside as it is now.

    Steve, Host
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 6,030
    "if customers are not confident in the quality/reliability of a product, they will resist buying it unless there are attractive differintials like price and longer warranty"

    I guess this individual is saying he doesn't have a lot of confidence in the reliability of Honda Odys and Toyota Siennas. From what I have read in the Prices Paid and Buying Experience Boards .... there is a large percentage of Ody and Sienna buyers that purchase the extended warranty.I see a few now and then that say they don't think they need the extended warranty. But, the vast majority are into the extended warranty big time.More so with people who buy the Honda Ody than the Toyota Sienna.So, I guess all these people don't have confidence in the reliability of these vans they are buying?
    I think a lot of people would be afraid to take that test Steve. Their world would collapse if they rated the "unrefined" Kia Sedona or DC van higher than what they are presently driving.
    It use to be people laughed at the quality of Japanese made cars.Just like they use to laugh at Hyundai/Kia.They won't be laughing much longer...not at all if they're informed and keep an open mind about such matters.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Just with one test drive (blindfolded, if realistically possible) to evaluate the handling characteristics, the engine power and accompanying refined engine sound, I can easily the leader from the wannabees.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    It took Toyota and Honda at least 30 - 40 years from the '50s & '60s to get where they became the quality leaders from 10 years ago.

    The Koreans have quite some ways to reach that inflexion point. But then, Toyota and Honda are not sleeping. They raise the bar up further so the wannabees maintain their present status. Just observe...
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    I'd also like to see something like that too. Blindfold people and set them in the passenger's seat and let them listen to the radio, wind, road and engine noise, rattles and feel the ride and seat comfort and see how many would pick the Honda and Toyota compaired to the Dodge/Chrysler and others. I think people would be quite surprised.
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 6,030
    Actually Toyota is the quality leader.According to post #318 Honda is tied with Hyundai.So, it looks like the "wannabes" from Hyundai have already reached that "inflexion" point...in what...12 years. Some people must be taking that blindfolded test and forgetting to take off the blindfold when the test is over.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    It may be so but there are big differences - Hondas are fun to drive with sporty handling and a great driving engagement that are difficult to match by Hyundai.

    Hyundai and Kia are disguised Buicks 25 years ago! Just check out the XG350 and the Amanti! Arggghhh!!
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    I know what you mean.

    Just came back from another recent business trip in Chicago.

    Had another rental T & C Entended version with Stow & Go seats. It was new with 205 miles with no license plate yet! This is my 50+ minivan rental(mostly DGC and T & C) in 18+ months.

    It is absolutely no comparison with the Ody or the Sienna!
  • "Hyundai and Kia are disguised Buicks 25 years ago! Just check out the XG350 and the Amanti! Arggghhh!!"

    Do us all a favor and stop posting crap like this, please. Instead of wasting our time, go to your nearest Hyundai dealer. Ride in an accent and you will not change your mind about Hyundai, but then test drive an Elantra, Sonata, or the XG350 that you think so little of. I love my Honda Accord, but the Elantra is a steal at it's price. And the Korean manufacturers have come a long way since the Excel debacle. They offer a competent machine trimmed out with some nice goodies for the price. And the 6 year/60K bumper-to-bumper may be because they are trying to lure people back, but you know what...who cares? Look into the Hyundai boards, especially the popular Elantra and Sonata and you won't see many problems at all. Certainly no more than I see in the Accord boards, which you consider as so much superior. One of the few last things keeping the majority of people from buying Korean cars is the perceived stigma of owning what others consider an inferior vehicle. Just like everything else, image is a large part of it. At least all those people driving VW's ought to be trading in for a Sonata. With the realm of problems they are having in exchange for initial quality, why not trade up to a car that won JD Powers and Assoc. award for initial quality that also comes with a 6 year bumper-to-bumper warranty?

    BTW, at the prices Hyundai/Kia sell their cars for....they don't have to match Honda. But they are worth the money for a lot of people's needs.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Cannot get the simple luxury of separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger in anything less than the Sienna XLE with MSRP $30,100 BUT then in Denver Region there is mandatory Option A that makes the MSRP $32,165.
    However, the Caravan SXT has the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger at MSRP $23,705 and the SWB T&C has the feature for MSRP $21,600.
    The lowest priced Odyssey with the feature is the EX at MSRP $ 28,510.
  • lumbarlumbar Posts: 421
    A valid point because of Toyota's rigidity in packages but a comparison also depends on what you're looking for and how you stack the deck. I'd rather have VSC any day than separate temperature controls. I can get that with a Sienna LE and reasonable option package (e.g., # 5), but can't get it at all on a DC van at any price.
  • craigmricraigmri Posts: 243
    Macakava,

    You stated:

    "Hyundai and Kia are disguised Buicks 25 years ago! Just check out the XG350 and the Amanti! Arggghhh!!"

    Have you driven either car? I have and even though I'm too young for conservative type "near luxury" cars I still marveled at the quality and refinement. It really doesnt matter if Hondas are better. They are still great cars!

    As for the Minivan currently offered by Kia, not many people suggest its "as good" as the leading Japanese brands. Doesnt matter to me cause the Sedona we bought has all the bells and whistles and is a joy to drive. You really aught to try one.

    Craig
    '04 Sedona EX
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Carrots are great for your health!
    Eat some more!

    Trade in your Honda for a Sonata and switch to their forum as well.

    Maybe you do not have the guts to switch to an inferior performing vehicle vs the Accord. May be you do not want to trade down for the image reasons that you so described. QUality may a given in this case, but "fun to drive, superior handling" is quite another.

    Even after test driving these same Korean vehicles, I believe the test reports of C & D, R & T that Hondas are superior performing cars.

    The Civic and Accord are more superior handling, fun to drive vehicles than Elantra and Sonata! Similar Ody vs Sedona!!
  • dulnevdulnev Posts: 652
    I had a new XG350 as a rental car recently and it was the most horrible and scary ride I've ever taken! Yes, it looks great and all those high-end features are enticing, BUT I was literally scared driving this car at highway speeds. I'm used to surgical precision of my Acura and this car was very hard to control in comparison.

    I wouldn't generalize to all Hyundai and Kia cars, but if they can't make their best car well, what does it tell about the resto of the line-up???
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Dulnev,

    Like you and I know, there is absolutely no comparison between Acura/Honda and Hyundai. It is like comparing an apple to an orange.

    Equal quality comparison claim is one thing, but "surgical" handling and fun to drive in Honda/Acura cars like yours is another feature that is priceless. And if it comes with high quality too boot, that combo is unbeatable!
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    I did try a Sedona for curiousity before I bought the Ody. There is no comparo - the Ody is superior as I enjoy a car that is fun to drive, agile, engaging with great handling and fast for its class.

    In fact just a few days ago, a guy in a Sedona was trying to hustle me in my Ody. We were on a city street in which I was doing 50 in a 45mph zone. When we were exiting on an off-ramp to the I-40, I floored the Ody and it easily exited the curving ramp at 60mph with no fuss; the Sedona could not keep up with the speed and the cornering(as it leans like a beached whale) as I could see him disappearing in my rear view mirror. The Ody easily reached 90 - 100mph with ease before I coasted to exit at the next ramp one mile away for my next shopping errand. Needless to say, the Sedona was no where in sight then.

    This athletic, agile quality with fun to drive factor and great Honda quality cannot be beaten.
  • lumbarlumbar Posts: 421
    "This athletic, agile quality with fun to drive factor and great Honda quality cannot be beaten."

    Is this forum about minivans or sports coupes? While the Ody may have some virtues *relative* to other minivans, it's still a minivan. Minivans are very underrated vehicles in terms of their versatility, but it's really gilding the lily to see any minivan as athletic and/or agile--as well as doing a disservice to vehicles that actually are so. I really am not out to knock the Ody, but sometimes the hyberbole needs to be reigned in a bit.

    While I'm aware the new Ody has received some accolades for it's handling, I'd submit that the *operative* differences in handling among same generation minivans--the extent to which one can or should sensibly execute any particular maneuver while driving--are within a relatively small range, particularly among the major contenders.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    If you only use the minivan for basic transportation like I believe you do, then any minivan like a Sedona or DGC will do.

    But if you want an engaging driving experience like some of us do while driving, then the final selection becomes more critical. Among the available minivans, only a few (1 or 2)would cut it.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    No comparison? It is like comparing an apple to an orange

    Well, apples and oranges are both fruit, are both round, have seeds, a peel, grow on trees. Lots of similarities.

    Some folks may prefer to pay less for a Granny Smith and let other splurge on the organic Blood Oranges.

    Steve, Host
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Talking about blood oranges, I bought a 2 lb bag on special this weekend for 99 cents to try them.

    Boy, did it (cross section) look gross compared to regular oranges. But the taste was passable!

    Great analogy!
  • craigmricraigmri Posts: 243
    Mac Stated:

    "In fact just a few days ago, a guy in a Sedona was trying to hustle me in my Ody. We were on a city street in which I was doing 50 in a 45mph zone. When we were exiting on an off-ramp to the I-40, I floored the Ody and it easily exited the curving ramp at 60mph with no fuss; the Sedona could not keep up with the speed and the cornering(as it leans like a beached whale) as I could see him disappearing in my rear view mirror. The Ody easily reached 90 - 100mph with ease before I coasted to exit at the next ramp one mile away for my next shopping errand. Needless to say, the Sedona was no where in sight then. "

    Are you like 15 years old?

    Craig
    '04 Sedona EX
  • i think the sedona driver must be 15 or less, in south florida where i live, in the past 10 days they have lost 14 people, 6 in a two car speeding accident, 4 were teens, another accident took the lives of 4, speed related, and they just found 4 in alligator alley, in the swamp, looks like speed related, there were probably more, but the high fatality ones seems to make tv and newspapers
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    Let's stick to comparing apples and carrots eh?

    Steve, Host
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Are you 65+?
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    If you cannot appreciate a car (like the Ody or Sienna) for what it can do, then the Sedona meet your satisfaction.

    I just love when someone in an inferior vehicle challenges me to show what a superior vehicle can do.
  • easleseasles Posts: 13
    Hi all -

    Just wanted to say that I picked up a stale 2004 Mercury Monterey for 11.5k off sticker the other day. Saw an ad in a local suburban paper and went to do the deal. They tried to stiff me so walked out over $900 and they called back a week later. Basic model, but much like a highline Ford. I think the differences in the minivans are real, but dramatically overblown. I am very happy with the product so far. Hope I can say the same 2 years from now. I plan on keeping the vehicle for 8-10 year.

    Thanks and wanted to share my story

    Eric S.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    I believe that you meant "slate" color NOT "stale" because if you do, it was an adequate description.

    Our last minivan was a 1996 Windstar from which the Monterey and Freestar evolved. Same engine with a miniscule HP increase to 203. Our Windstar lasted 54K before it needed an engine job despite religious oil/filter changes every 3K miles or 4 months. Not to mention the very frequent trek to the dealer for warranty repairs that was very aggravating and waste of time. Ford has so much bad rap with the Windstar that they changed the name to Freestar in the hopes that it would be forgotten.

    The C & D June 2004 minvan comparo placed the Freestar(Monterey) a distant last compared to the Ody, Sienna, Quest, DGC in that pecking order.

    Since buying our Ody almost a year ago, we never had to take it back to the dealer for anything as I do my own PM( and have been for 30+ years). When we were buying the Ody, Ford was offerring $10K rebates on the Freestar/Monterey and I would not touch it.

    The Ody is so agile and fun to drive that I forget that it is a minivan because it could be driven like any good sport sedan. This feature is priceless!
  • 1997montez341997montez34 NJ, USAPosts: 202
    Wow! I am sure my newborn will love pulling maximum g-force and drag racing in our MINIVAN! Are you serious? I mean, I know the Ody is a nice van and drives well as vans go, but come one man! It's just a minivan.

    I don't know about you but I bought my van to drive my kid around in convenience and comfort. I'd suspect that most minivan buyers are in the same boat. You sound like a hormonal 15 year old with all that "challenging" bull.

    I could afford any van out there. We tested the Ody and Sienna. I leased a DGC because we got a great deal and it had all the right features for us. Did I make a bad decision to get an "inferior" vehicle? I think not.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    It all depends on if your driving style is more in tune with someone 30+ years older than you are or like our "Aunty Mildred"!

    I have always been an energetic, spirited driver since getting my license 35+ years ago. I enjoy moving quickly instead of holding up the traffic at the speed limit on the fast lane. If I have to own a minivan for any reason, it has to be a high performing one compared to the rest.

    I know my limits, have fast reflexes, and have never been in an accident in my life. The only incident I had was when I parked my car 25 years on the side of the road to visit my wife in hospital who gave birth to our first son. SOmeone crashed into the side of my car while I was in te hospital - he sufferred a heart attack and died behind the wheel. SO you see - a DEAD man hit me!
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 6,030
    mac, you should have entered the Daytona 500 last week.I think that Honda Ody of yours could have taken that inferior motor vehicle Jeff Gordon was driving.Your Aunt Mildred could be your crew chief.
    But seriously, you really shouldn't be driving that van like that. I know it's fun to pretend your a famous NASCAR driver or something, but you could end up causing an accident.Not to mention putting a strain on the already suspect transmission that the Honda Ody is known for.
    The Honda Ody is a very good van. Up there with the top 3 or 4 on the market.But, fun and exciting to drive? Not by a long shot.To me it was about as exciting to drive as my dads old Dodge Dart.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    I remember the Dodge Dart of those days very well - The DGC is a closer derivative of it and drives more like it! Thinking back - the Dart is so antiquated that the lower ranking minivans like Freestar and Sedona would make it look inferior! So I am sure that you are in tune with the progress/evolution that has taken place.

    Aunt Mildred would bore me to death! So she would not be a candidate. Buy you can have her for free! Maybe I would even connsider paying you to have her.

    Everything is relative. In the minivan category today, only one or two stand out as great performers - the rest are wannabees.

    Have not had an accident in my 35years of driving! A lot depends on how you anticipate the traffic, your driving reflexes, your personality(laid-back and energetic, etc) and road smarts.

    I frequently drive the 800+ miles to visit relatives in Canada in less than 13 hrs including stops for gas, the john and lunch. For many long stretches(2+hrs), I can do 80+mph safely and without a speeding ticket by getting heroes ahead that I can use as bait (i.e. rabbit) for Smokey. Remember "Heroes die on the beach" as my uncle used to say.
  • Some people just don't understand that the VAST majority of minivan drivers are most concerned with keeping their families safe. I enjoy spirited driving as much as the next guy, and I get to do that with my Saab 9-3. But when I drive my T&C with my kids aboard, I'm not looking to take ramps at 60 or get it up to 90. It would be nuts to act that way. And that makes me an "Aunt Mildred"? I guess in some twisted parallel universe... It's called perspective. But not everyone has it...
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 6,030
    "I was literally scared driving this car at highway speeds"

    Dude...sounds like you may have a case of Koreacarphobia. That's an irrational fear of Korean made cars.I'd have that looked at if I were you.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    I'm wondering whether a minivan induces aggression or whether aggressives gravitate toward minivans? ;-)

    In any case, competition is best reserved for the track and not the highway.

    Steve, Host
  • navyairnavyair Posts: 202
    Ladies and Gents,

    Perhaps there has been a reincarnation of the member Ody 01 from previous posts. He was a rabid Ody fan who considered it his duty to boast, name call and generally denigrate all other forms of human transportation. Eventually forum members just stopped responding to his baiting and he quit posting...actually, I think he may have been temporarily banned.

    Topic is minivan shopping, n'est ce pas? The fact that you fell you are better, smarter, cuter, more afraid, or break the law routinely and get away with it isn't really the point.

    Would propose that we all get back closer to center on this one.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    " have always been an energetic, spirited driver since getting my license 35+ years ago. I enjoy moving quickly instead of holding up the traffic at the speed limit on the fast lane. If I have to own a minivan for any reason, it has to be a high performing one compared to the rest."

    What high performance? The Odyssey is only 1.5 sec. faster than the Dodge GC from 0-60 and only 1 sec. faster from 45-65. It's (less) than a sec. faster in the quarter mile. Plus the Odyssey only gets one mpg better on gas in the city and only 2mpg better than the Dodge on the highway. And that is with their new engine and transmission. I would think with that high performance engine that you keep raving about that can cut out three cylinders to save all that fuel and a 5 speed transmission, that Odyssey should be able to run away from the competition in both. But they only squeak by in both, to the old tech that Dodge is still using.

    I don't know about you, but I think many people buy mini vans to take on long trips. I'm not sure how much I would like taking the Odyssey on a long trip with their firmer suspension. I really don't like hours upon hours of feeling that harder, firmer ride.

    So I think you need to hold down the talk on how much greater that Odyssey is from everything else on the road. Even with all it's high tech., it just squeezes by Chrysler/Dodge and costs thousands more. Plus I have a much better sound system to listen to on those long trips.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    Your missing the point!

    You have to enjoy spirited, energetic driving to appreciate a superior prforming vehicle. If you are used to the typical Detroit products, then DGC would be fine.

    In terms of actual performance, I don't think you know how big a difference 1 or 1.5 sec is.

    At 60mph, that is 88 feet difference for 1 sec, 132 feet at 1.5 sec! Our Aunty Mildred would care!

    Again one has to know what the difference means to appreciate the difference. My sons have all completed university and lead their own lives - so I don't need it to haul kids. However I want a minivan as one of my vehicles for the flexibility and praticality it provides. But it must be fun to drive, not one of those "ho-hum" ones that you can rent. I have rented 50+ minivans in the past 18 months, mostly DGC and some T & Cs.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    "I remember the Dodge Dart of those days very well - The DGC is a closer derivative of it and drives more like it! Thinking back - the Dart is so antiquated that the lower ranking minivans like Freestar and Sedona would make it look inferior! So I am sure that you are in tune with the progress/evolution that has taken place."

    That's your problem Macakava, your still thinking back to the first generation Dodge/Chrysler mini vans. The one made off of the K-car platform.(You remember, the people that showed the rest of the world how to make them in the first place.)I guess compared to the early models, that 2005 Odyssey would seem super fast and high tech. to you. Don't think you won't see that old tech. Dodge in your rear view mirror as you try and leave it in the dust.It'll be right up on your bumper with the driver yelling for you to hurry up.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    "In terms of actual performance, I don't think you know how big a difference 1 or 1.5 sec is.

    At 60mph, that is 88 feet difference for 1 sec, 132 feet at 1.5 sec! Our Aunty Mildred would care!"

    Well in a quarter mile, the Odyssey is only less than a sec. faster. Seems like the farther you go, the faster the Dodge is gaining on it. I guess if they went a few miles down the road, the Odyssey driver could quit looking for the Dodge out of his rear view mirror and start looking for it out of his left driver's window.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    The DGC with only 215hp was descibed as gutless by C & D. It was a distant 4th behind Ody, Sienna and Quest respectively. Give me your email address and i would gladly give ya the comparo test report. Have you been asleep?

    I know as I have driven 50+ DGC and T & C in the past 18 months.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    Ummmm, no.

    You can't directly compare time to speed (0-60) and time to distance (1/4 mile) that way. It's that whole apples vs. oranges thing again.....

    Besides, with ANY kind of top speed run, you're going to be limited by either the governer on the vehicle (due to tire issues), or horsepower vs. drag. These are both BIG vehicles punching BIG holes in the air. I don't know what the actual CD's are (coefficient's of drag) but I do know that Honda went to fairly extreme ends to lower the CD of the Ody as far as reasonable. And remember, the Ody has a 40 hp advantage.

    I don't think you REALLY want to see a top speed comparison (which is after all, pretty silly; these are MINIVANS) between a new Ody and a Dodge; unless you like the looks of receeding taillights.
  • macakavamacakava Posts: 775
    After 70 mph, the DGC becomes breathless and kicks up a rattle - like saying "Why are you bothering with me?"

    The Ody and Sienna just keeps pulling strongly to higher speed limits that would sweat your pants.

    Poor boy, I wish that you had the comprehension to understand it to make it easier on all of us.

    So I give up
  • craigmricraigmri Posts: 243
    Mac,

    I'm really glad you enjoy your Minivan. In a 100 years from now none of it really matters does it? I'm actually glad you are happy with your Odyssey cause the thought of you in a real performance vehicle kinda frightens me.

    Everyone, Please agree with Mac that his Odyssey rules and all other Minivans suck this way he goes away.

    Craig
    '04 Sedona EX
    Not a sportscar according to Mac
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