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Any good dealers around here? I offered a dealer $23,000 OTR, but he is asking for $23,950 OTR.
OTR = vehicle cost + tax (3% in VA) + tags + processing fees etc etc
Escape2003 - Honda will undoubtedly be doing the same thing. Though I doubt it will be next year. Honda typically allows the vehicle to sell without adding content and inflating the price. Then, when the new model hype dies down, they add a more expensive model to revive interest. This is what they did with the SE model during the last generation's run. FWIW, the open air concept got a lot of attention. The folks at Honda took notice.
Beings I was able to atain 23.7MPG at the average speed of 70MPH is pretty darn good with 4 adults, and gear. There is more to a vehicle than just MPG also. There is the ability to climb steep grades and keep up with the flow of traffic, the ability to pass going UP hill, the ability to merge into traffic safely. Varmit, I had to ask my manager friend at the Honda dealership about your claims of 29MPG at speeds of 70MPH and he laughed, basicly no way...
23,950 for a CRV!! yikes!! I paid 22,800 for a V6 XLT Escape pretty much loaded.... And now they are even going for less in the paper..
I agreed long ago the 2.0 Zetec is a joke in the Escape. The Escape is way too heavy for this engines HP/Torque. But, Ford has a remedy only about a year away. The 2.3 engine plant is ramping up to meet demand. This engine is already used in the Ranger/B series trucks. The new 2.3 is going to deliver anywhere from 140-155HP and 150-155ft/lbs of torque, plus give you better MPG than the present Zetec engine. I can't pin down exact HP/Torque ratings because each site give different information.
I've been tracking every tank of gas in a spreadsheet since 9/22/99. I have 60,000 miles on the vehicle and 51,000 of them recorded. My high is 31.0 mpg and my low (driving off road) is 21.49. My current overall average is 25.03 mpg, but with the weather warming up it'll get back to around 25.5 mpg.
BTW, the fact that your friend is a car dealer does not make him sound more trustworthy or knowledgable. I mean no disrespect, but you should understand that most people don't trust car dealers.
The fact that Ford is offering incentives should tell you something. The fact that they've decided to upgrade the four banger should tell you another.
Proven by whom?
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It's not just Honda.
TSB's, as already noted, are internal documents. Just because every other automaker make it available to the public doesn't mean that Honda has to. Need recall information for Honda vehicles? Go to www.safetyalerts.com, it's all there for public viewing. It gives full length detail of the problem and the recall.
I don't dispute that it is Honda's right to withhold that informaton.. And I also indicated that 'most' (not all) other manufactures do allow this information to be disclosed..
But obviously Honda has information that often deals with vehicles common problems, percieved problems, service tips, and general service related information about vehicles it sold which it will share with it's dealerships.
It's interesting that Honda does allow this information for previous model years, but not the current model year. It's also my understanding that this is a relatively new restriction from Honda do this..
My thoughts are there can only be a few reasons why they would choose to hold this information:
a. They assume that the public will mis-use, mis-understand, and mis-represent the true information contained in the TSB's (We know this can and does occur, because I've seen folks use the 'number' of TSBs to support their claims of poor Escape quality).
and/or
b. Hide the few problems that do exist. There are also some good reasons to do this, such has keeping them from being blown out of proportion by the media and hysterical public (which we've also seen).
and/or
c. Protect their dealerships service departments by
1. hindering DIY fixes, and other shops ability to fix problems, however all 2002's are still under warranty, so I don't think this is really a reason.
2. avoid customers going to dealerships demanding that TSB work be performed for problems they didn't even know existed prior to seeing the TSB listed..
In time we may or may not learn Honda's motivation, but for sure, there is a reason.
Is the reason to protect Honda or its customers?
If there is nothing to hide, then why the switch in policy?
There could also be a "trade secret" aspect to this and Honda doesn't want to make it easy for competitors to learn how they fix problems. Seems like that'd be easy to circumvent though.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Lemme put it this way, if there were hundreds of TSBs for the Honda CR-V, we'd know them. Just because they aren't posted on that particular site, doesn't mean you cannot find them. If the vehicle broke that frequently, you'd hear it from the owners.
Advice to anyone who wants to get any useful information from this topic: Run, do not walk, to the nearest exit; read the available sources of information on Escape and CRV, then make up your own mind. But for your own sanity's sake, avoid this topic.
Oh man, you finally figured Honda out! Now we know that they aren't really any good at building automobiles at all! What they are REALLY good at is fooling the public into BELIEVING they produce good automobiles. Forget what all those reviewers say! Forget what publications like Consumer Reports say! Most of all, forget your personal experience! Honda has us all fooled. Just to think, that if we had access to those TSB's we would know the truth and would be set free from this tyrannical brainwashing.
Scape2 - One last suggestion for you (then I'm going to take my own advice and start with another subject). If TSBs are a measure of reliability, and Ford allows us to see their TSBs, then you should be able to tell us which Fords are the reliable ones. Using TSBs alone, prove to us which is the more reliable vehicle; the Explorer or the Expedition.
All of the reasons you wrote are valid for Honda, as well as any other automaker that would choose to withold its TSB from public view.
But Honda has its reasons for not providing TSB to the public. And that's their business.
Notice that when the Big3 were handing out 0% financing, did Honda follow? Were the Big3 being altruistic to its customers? Or was Honda "selfish" for not providing 0% financing?
Just because other automakers let their TSB's be available to the public, it is automatic that Honda has something to hide because it doesn't? Sounds sophistic to me. Even more interesting is that Honda did have TSB's available in the past, clearly indicating that Honda has other motives for not providing its TSBs to customers, and hiding information from the public is not one of them. Otherwise, why would they have done the opposite in the past?
To go as far as accusing Honda of hiding valid, vital information from its customers is absurd. Everything you need to know about its vehicles and their recalls are available to the public, if not from alldata.com, then from safetyalerts.com, or any other public interest groups.
I am not the only one that has had these experiences from what the rental company told me as they seem to have many problems with their fleet so it cannot take any abuse.
I do not recommend this vehicle to anyone and cannot wait to get my CRV back.
dying for no apparent reason.So this is enough
reason to be glad I did not get either of them.
It can be very dangerous if your engine dies
when you don't expect it!It may be 1 in a million
vehicles that do it but with my luck it would be me.If my CRV ever dies without reason I will let the whole world know.
No Scape2, we have plenty of data supporting the claims about Honda's reliability. We have Consumer Reports ranking the CR-V the most reliable SUV in 99 and the most reliable vehicle (all classes) in 2000. Both times it was 70+% higher than the industry average. Then we have the Escape ranked dead last at 40% below the industry average in 2001. We also have the data regarding... No... You know what... It's all been posted before. Go back and read it yourself.
I'm waiting for you to prove that one Ford is more reliable than another using TSB data. Or are you changing your story?
Scape: Although the list and number of TSB's are private, there are several other sources that indicate that Honda's have slightly higher quality than Fords in general.. This is JDpowers and CR data, which doesn't always refer to specific models, can be disputed in some ways (which we already explored), but certainly not hidden as generally they are reporting what owners opinions are of their vehicles.
If availability or lack of TSB information affects your buying decision, that is your choice.
There have been very few 'boasts' of CRV reliability based on TSBs, but instead CRV owners (just like Ford/Chevy/Toyota/Dodge etc), base their opinions of reliability on personal experiences, those of friends, in addition to the media..
IIRC, the Escape is rated for about 65 cu. ft. of cargo space. The CR-V is rated for 72 cu. ft. Based on what I've read, I suspect that the Escape has a better layout in terms of the shape of the cargo hold, but I have doubts that it's enough to compensate for the lack of 7 cu. ft.
With the seats up, the Escape has about 33 cu. ft. while the CR-V has 33.5. Correct me if that's wrong, I'm using Edmunds data for the Escape. No big advantage there. However, in a CR-V, each section of the 60/40 split back seat can be slid forward a few inches to create additional cargo space. Meanwhile, there is still room for rear passengers. The full range of seat travel is 7 inches, but you'd only be able to use 2-3 inches if you were still going to have passengers in back. Then we have the storage space under the picnic table.
In terms of passenger space, the CR-V has 106 cu. ft. for the passenger compartment. In total, there's 139.5 combined. I haven't found data for the Escape. (Is Ford hiding it?)
Volume isn't always the best measure anyway, so let's look at individual measurements. Both vehicles have similar headroom up front and in the back. No significant advantage either way, IMHO. Legroom up front is about the same, but the CR-V has a full 3 inch advantage in the back (so yes, you really can slide that rear seat forward). Shoulder room is about the same up front, but, once again, the CR-V has a slight 0.5 inch advantage in the back. Hiproom is the CR-V's also. The CR-V has an inch advantage up front, and a generous 4.5 inches in the back. In every category, the CR-V is equal or better than the Escape.
varmint,
When the next gen Escape comes out, it will probably be equal to or better than the CR-V in most if not all of those categories. Then it will be the CR-V's turn again, and so on and so forth. The newer model always has the advantage, so your numbers aren't exactly surprising. Besides, the differences in the individual measurements aren't large enough to matter (except for the rear hip room which would only matter if three people were sitting in the back seat). For example, if I were in the back of a CR-V wearing a heavy winter coat then jumped into an Escape without the coat, I would think the Escape had the 0.5 inch advantage. When the thickness of your clothes can make a difference, there really is no advantage if you ask me. Unless your hips are wider than your shoulders, then the CR-V surely wins there. Although you may need the V6's towing power if that's the case. (It's just a joke, I'm not exactly a toothpick myself anymore.) That extra 3 inches of length won't matter when I'm trying to fit an eight foot piece of lumber in the back. It's going on the roof with either vehicle, and we all know that the Escape holds the advantage there. Provided one's CR-V even has a roof rack to begin with.
Whether the difference is significant or not, is a matter of opinion. That much I certainly agree with. For me, anything less than half an inch isn't worth discussion. But the extra 3 inches in legroom and 1"/4.5" (front/rear) at the hip are significant enough to be noticed but most anyone's standards.
Is this a big deal? Nope. Most people will find both vehicles adequate (just like most people will find the 160 hp I4 adequate). But, if the extra space is ever needed, the CR-V has the advantage.
Actually, you don't need the roof rack to haul long items. I have pics that I can post later. The CR-V has a somewhat unique "bed" feature that allows folks to fold the front and rear seats backward to create a double bed. In the 2002 model, it's more like a lounge chair as it isn't as flat as the original CR-V. Anyway, using this feature, I've been able to carry planks 9-10' long inside the CR-V. Surfers have used it to tote their boards. The new Honda Element has this trick perfected.
baggs32 - Why does the Escape hold an advantage when putting a piece of lumber on the roof rack?
scape2 - While boasting about the superior power of the Escape you threw in the word "outmaneuver". I was under the impression that the CR-V had the advantage in turning radius. One of the unexpected delights I have experienced with my CR-V is that it maneuvers really well in tight spaces.
Look at how Honda has made TSBs available in the past. You keep pointing that they're obviously hiding something, but yet you don't acknowledge the fact that they're not hiding it for the reasons that you and scape are trying to imply.
Like I said, if they wanted to hide what you considered maintenance issues that the public needs to know (just because the other guys do it), then why did they allow TSBs to be available in the past?
Until you can answer that, I find scape's and your arguments silly at best.
FWIW, I'm 6'1" and bought my CR-V because my one of my camping buddies is 6'4". Rear legroom matters to me, too.
Diploid - Scape2 just has difficulty making a clear point. Bess has elaborated for him in several posts.
The problem is that Scape2 keeps throwing the TSB thing around at anything remotely related to a problem with a Honda. Bess has been clarifying that it really only makes a difference in terms of "trusting" Honda as a corporation and being able to diagnose your own issues, rather than relying on the dealer's service department. Both of those points make sense, but they have nothing to do with what Scape2 is trying to prove.
1. The Escape comes with a roof rack right out of the box. You don't have to have it "tacked" on at the dealer as you do with the CR-V.
2. The Escape's roof rack can hold more weight. 100 lbs. for the Escape, and I think only 70 or 75 lbs. for the CR-V.
3. The Escape's standard rack has sliding crossbars as well as sliding tie down hooks if you need extras. The CR-V bars are stationary, but I don't know if it has extra tie downs or not.
varmint,
Yes, the next gen is probably about three years away for all I know. I think we were on two separate tracks in that conversation. You seemed to be pointing out reasons why someone should consider a CR-V right now, and I was giving my reasons for why it was enlarged and how that merry-go-round works between cometing models. Honda needed to one-up the dimesions of the Escape, which was purposely made larger than the last gen CR-V, in order to compete. So yes, if you do drive a lot of adults around in the back seat, the current CR-V does have an advantage over the Escape. Although I haven't had anyone complain about being cramped in our back seat yet.
You keep pointing that they're obviously hiding something, but yet you don't acknowledge the fact that they're not hiding it for the reasons that you and scape are trying to imply.
---- end quote
The points I laid out earlier are the most likely reasons Honda chooses to withhold TSB information.. There could be others, and only Honda knows for sure..
Your claiming that my opinion is wrong, and that is it 'fact' that those are not the reasons Honda is withholding TSB's.. If you know the 'facts' of why Honda is withholding TSB info, then please enlighten us..
You quote:
..if they wanted to hide what you considered maintenance issues that the public needs to know (just because the other guys do it), then why did they allow TSBs to be available in the past?
Until you can answer that, I find scape's and your arguments silly at best.
---- end quote
Huh? I've clearly given reasons why I belive Honda has changed their policy on disclosing TSB's. I may be right, I could be wrong, but I have answered your question with my opinion..
So, what part of my other previous posts do you not understand? I don't mind if you disagree with my points of view, but your implying that I've not answered your questions which I clearly have..
I'm beginning to feel that I'm being suckered in by a Troll.. oh well, worse things have happened.
Fords Explorer seemed to gradually grow over the years.. When it was first introduced, it wasn't that much larger than the Escape.. The 2002 Explorer jumped up in size yet again..
If the CRV and Escape and other current mini-suv's keep creeping up in size (and price) every new model change, in a few years, there will be room for another class of mini-mini-SUV's..
Some people while shopping may look at TSB information as a way to determine if they buy one brand or another. Wouldn't this give Honda an advantage? CR.. they are getting hammered in another chat room here at Edmunds. Its been proven over and over they profile thier readers and tell them what they want to hear. CR also just got hammered on a recall of some gifts that were given to new subscribers.. A tire gauge that did not read correctly and a flashlight that causes fires!.. Imported from China..
The Escape has more ground clearance, more towing, pulling power, passing power. Better, larger tires, more skidplates.
MPG.. This is funny someone here says they are getting 29MPG when the CRV is rated at 21/25.. Yet someone also says Escape owners are in no way getting over 20 when its ratings are 18/23, I am getting about 21 average and achieved 23.7 on my last HWY trip.
Turning radius.. Yes the CRV has about a 1" advantage.
As for MPG, you posted your average for your last trip to the mountains. So I posted mine. I also provided my overall average and several other details. Read it again. I never posted that 29 is my average.
Yep, the Escape does have several advantages, such as towing ability. I certainly will not dispute that. BTW, I like how you tend to list the same category with two or three descriptions to make it seem like a longer list. Regardless, I brought up passenger and cargo measurements to get off the been-beaten-to-death subjects of TSBs and engines.
CRV wins:
-EPA passenger volume by 6 cubic feet
-Hip room, Headroom and legroom in rear (significant)
-Turning Diameter 19 inches less diameter
-Suspension
-Better MILEAGE
-Less AIR EMISSIONS
-Much HIGHER RESALE VALUE and better reliability
Tied (more or less):
-Hip room, Headroom and legroom in front (crv slight adavantage in 2 of 3 catergories)
-Acceleration from 0-60 (of course the V6)
Escape wins:
-Cargo volume with seats up by 1 cubic foot
-Towing capacity (significantly) unless you use over seas max specified towing capaicty for the same exact CRV.
Hauling: Bunch of stuff/passengers inside the vehicle or on the roof rack.
Pulling: Like pulling a tree stump or some bushes out of the ground.
Towing: Attaching some sort of trailer to the hitch and dragging it with you.
Basically all are the same thing because their limits are set by the same power source, and they all describe the vehicles basic ability to move weight from point A to point B. But at least two of them are always measured separately, towing (towing, pulling?) and payload (hauling).
All the CRV owners are going to jump over a cliff, should I expect you to follow Scape2? Just because SOME choose to post the info doesn't mean those that don't are hiding something or bad by nature.
I was in a store the other day and saw a pledge poster for Cancer research that said "Please open your heart". I didn't see your name on the list, so you must be heartless...oh wait...Just because some people do something good and others don't do the same thing doesn't make them suspect to being a bad person or company. Anybody who buys a vehicle based on TSB's is an idiot in my opinion. I don't care if they are buying a Honda or anything else. RECALLS I can understand because that is a fundamental flaw or defect that reflects on the time and research put into a vehicle by a company PRIOR to manufacture. TSB's CAN reflect on how well a vehicle is designed, but if HONDA chooses not to post them then HONDA owners can't say ANYTHING about the number of TSB's any other vehicle has compared to a HONDA. THEY CAN compare them to the number of TSB's for any other vehicle though.
As far as comparing OVERALL reliability between Honda and Ford...please. Some will argue that Ford makes more vehicles and sells more so of course they will have more troublesome vehicles. I say if you look at percentages you'll find more problems on the FORD end then Honda. There are plenty of stories on each side about who has driven what for how long....it's not about 1 or 2 or 100 people. It's about the overall product.
Just for a pointy stick in the eye...I have seen 2 Escapes in the last 2 months parked on the roadside with hoods up and towing stickers on them. Now before everyone counters with their 'oh yeah, well I saw a dead CRV, actually 50 of them' I live in a small area, and thats why these stuck out to me. I haven't seen any CRV's dead, but so what? That could just mean nobody is buying them or they get towed before I see them.
As I posted a while ago, this whole thread is DESIGNED to pit people against each other. (see the 'vs' between the two?) BOTH of these products are fairly new. Any line under 10 years is still pretty young in my book, and that includes the Expedition I think....
uh oh...I've been ranting again.........
Tell all your reliability stories to my neighbor who's CRV was in the shop for 3 days...
I did not bring up recalls? TSB's. varmit, where did you get your 29MPG number?
Dave
turning radius of an Escape is 35.4, the CRV is 34.1, where are you getting a 19ft difference? Is this another Honda story?
Resale value, how do you know this? The Escape has only been around for 2 years.. reliability.. once again.. how do you know this when Honda hides information? Suspension.. don't go there. both have fully independent suspensions... yet, lift a CRV and Escape side by side and you'll wish you hadn't.. Suspension metals are much thicker on the Escape, also, the Escape has more under protection (skidplates). Thats a good one.. Less air emissions.. lets see LEV vs ULEV.. how much less??
What you may call "insignificant" others may call significant. When comparing these two vehicles side by side the Escape wins most of the categories. Also a HUGE point.. The cargo room is with the Seats all the way up in the CRV.. this makes for less leg room for rear passengers, less hip room, ect.. With the seat all the way back it also has less cargo area in the rear.. Hmmm.... I wonder why we weren't told that??? I wonder how these numbers were computed.
This logic of its Ok for Honda not to post information is ok, because its Honda is a joke. The internet is wonderful because information like this makes its way around quickly. Love these chat rooms because there are some peeved Honda owners out here and the cat is making its way out of the bag....
You want the data? Here you go...
25.35
25.29
25.34
26.60
26.06
25.09
26.26
24.59
25.36
24.22
25.53
23.59
26.25
24.42
23.67
25.28
23.48
23.60
23.84
25.02
22.43
23.33
22.87
24.61
23.37
24.34
25.27
23.63
25.63
24.87
25.69
25.98
24.74
24.66
27.39
25.66
25.49
24.94
26.53
27.04
26.20
27.48
25.45
25.11
26.11
24.74
24.88
26.60
25.02
26.04
25.66
31.00
21.69
28.22
26.90
24.81
26.23
25.81
26.16
27.42
26.19
25.96
25.25
25.52
25.26
25.70
26.44
24.75
24.81
24.15
24.38
24.38
23.80
24.02
23.50
24.96
24.30
24.46
23.94
23.93
21.49
24.08
24.65
25.56
23.60
24.54
23.63
23.78
24.17
24.28
25.02
25.53
27.30
27.92
25.71
27.42
28.72
26.94
28.72
26.88
24.96
26.36
28.64
25.98
27.82
26.26
26.19
27.11
24.50
27.26
27.39
25.13
25.96
25.93
25.52
24.48
25.97
24.57
24.47
24.38
24.51
24.93
25.60
24.22
23.29
24.72
24.28
27.61
22.45
22.65
23.03
25.25
22.35
23.16
22.92
23.45
25.10
23.96
25.67
22.47
23.15
23.30
24.21
23.26
22.73
22.61
22.85
23.37
23.47
22.79
24.27
24.37
Any questions?
Anyways...
In regards to turning radius, I wrote 19 inches of difference, the crv having a smaller radius for turning a full 360 degrees. What exactly did I make up here?
Resale and reliability... is for another friendly debate.
Suspension: Crv has multilink and wishbone which are in fact better then a control arm and trailing arm. You are right about them both being independent suspensions. I don't know anything about the thickness of the plates or much about the underside of the escape so you could be right there.
Emissions are a huge difference between the two vehicles. Got to epa.gov and look them up.
~CRV emmits 5.3 to 6.3 pounds of pollutant per unit.
~Escape emits 12.3 to 12.9 pounds of pollutant per unit
==> That is TWICE as much!!!
I agree, significance is a subjective term so here are the stats comparing the two vehicles, we can now judge what is significant in our own minds. BTW, these are all for when the crv lx seats are pushed all the way back.
________________crv____escape_____WINS
Front Head4_____40.9_____40.4________CRV
Rear head_______39.1_____39.2________Escape
Front leg________41.3_____41.6________Escape
Rear leg________39.4_____36.4________CRV
Front shoulder____56.9_____56.3________CRV
Rear shoulder____56.5_____55.9________CRV
Front hip________54.5_____53.4_________CRV
Rear hip________53.5_____49.0_________CRV
There we go... in my opinion the CRV categories that win are more significant then the wins for the escape. The two wins for the escape are 0.3 inches and 0.1 inch.
The escape wins in the towing capacity.
The crv wins in the mileage category.
My best 30.1 mpg
My worse 22.3
Dave was wrong about the cargo capacity. According to what I've read the CR-V technically has a half foot advantage over the Escape (33.5 vs 33).
Scape2, you are wrong about the rear seat position. The CR-V's 33.5 cu.ft. rating is with the seats pushed all the way back. So you can slide the seats forward 2-3 inches for more cargo space and still have as much rear legroom as the Escape.
The CR-V is an LEV II (bin 5), not a ULEV. Though, the two ratings are fairly similar. Go here for more information.
http://www.cars.com/interactive/realvideo/realvideo_console.jhtml?cat=newmodels&clipid=39
Scape2 - You might want to take note of the fact that nothing broke during the seat folding portion of the video.
http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/suv-02.htm
CRV rates 8 --> 5.3 to 6.3 pounds per unit
Escape rates 6 --> 12.3 to 12.9 pounds per unit
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001car2tablef.jsp
Altoon - There is no other major study that gives vehicle specific information on reliability. There are initial quality studies, but those are based on only 90 days. Bess provided links earlier that represent the average of each manufacturer's product lines. That's not the same thing either.