Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
The VUE is classified as a mid-size by some agencies. Definitely too big, by your apparent standards. Ditto the Santa Fe.
If you're desperate, I heard rumor of people buying the complete Jetta 4Motion system from overseas and Frankensteining them into the American models. But if you have that kind of money, you could just buy the Passat. (Twice)
Sorry guys. Back on Topic, Is the CRV slated for Hybrid like the Escape is?
Furthermore, actual gas mileage fell quite short of the number that Honda was advertising.
I just got back from a 2500 mile trip with my CR-V. Had a full load (passengers and gear), had the A/C on, was going through hilly roads and you know what? The vehicle had plenty of power FOR ME. Maybe not for you or someone else, but plenty for me. My best gas mileage was 27.2 mpg, my worst was 24.8 mpg. Like I said with the A/C on and with a full load----not too bad. What are your mileage numbers?
If you think 0-60 times will justify your purchase then keep searching for them.
For example, I love my Ford SuperDuty truck with the 5.4L engine, but compared to a truck that weighs well over 5000 lbs I would bet that the CRV could out accelerate my truck.. If I were concerned about 0-60 times exclusively, I would have had to get the V10 (doh).
When buying the Escape for our family vehicle (to replace a mini-van), I do have to admit that the V6 was a blast to drive, because of its power and handling, but that isn't the only reason I chose the Escape by any means. It is a comfortable vehicle, features that I wanted, a brand that I've had great experiences with in the past, good local dealerships, and at the right price.
which would not get 25 mpg like I do now.Why are
we humans never satisfied?
Daveghh - Actually, the big Fords do hold their resale fairly well. As do most large trucks. So a blanket statement about all Fords doesn't stick. Most Ford cars, on the other hand, are a different matter.
As beatfarmer pointed out and as I have tried to tell you for weeks, TSBs are internal documents. The fact that some manufacturers make them available to the public means nothing to me. You feel it is a vast conspiracy by Honda to keep the public in the dark about problems with their vehicles, that seems a little out there to me.
aadland "MY2002+ Chevy Trailblazer, GMC Envoy, Oldsmobile Bravada" Apr 23, 2002 11:06pm
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
To hide these, as Honda is doing causes people to think their Honda vehicles never have any problems.. I posted a while back my neighbor has a CRV, hers has been in the shop 2x for electrical issues.. I have been cordial about it and civil. She asked me the day I purchased my Escape if I knew about "all the problems" the Escapes were having... Yeah right.. My Escape has NEVER been in the shop....
FWIW, I have had a problem with my CR-V. The wiper blades word out at 25K. Since then I've out on another 35K and never done anything other than routine maintenance.
So far, this guy has the record. A few problems, but so far nothing serious.
[edit] Nevermind - just found the fine print for the subscription CD there:
"Unfortunately, information for Honda, Acura and BMW is not available to consumers through the ALLDATA DIY by request of the each manufacturer."
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Read that a couple of times and tell me how that makes sense.
So because Honda doesn't release TSBs to the public I'm not going to know if my vehicle has a problem? LOL
This is so ridiculous it is funny. One person thinks not releasing TSBs is a vast conspiracy to keep Honda owners from knowing if they have problems with their own vehicles. So when I have a problem, because there is no TSB for me to see, what do I do? Pretend there is no problem? LOL
-To hide these (TSBs), as Honda is doing is an attempt by Honda to lead other people into thinking Honda vehicles never have any problems-
Written like this seems more reasonable, and is a point that I think has merit. But again, it is possible that I mis-understood scapes point and he meant it exactly as he/she wrote it.
2) that there is ample evidence that Honda produces an excellent line of cars.
3) that there is equal evidence of how other lines of cars rate.
4) that this evidence is independent of manufacturers' control.
People who keep tabs on things automotive know how different lines stack up with each other. People can rant all they want, and may live in a fantasy world, believing that reality is not reality. But what is IS.
For some reason, independent of the wishes and desires of American manufacturers (and their die-hard fanatics) Japanese cars, as a group, rate higher than American cars; and somehow, Japanese manufacturers can pull this off even in the USA and Canada, where US manufacturers cannot. Why? Don't know. But it would be a good thing if US manufacturers could figure it out, because Japanese market share gradually goes up all the time -- so the Japanese (and other foreign manufacturers) are doing something right -- they are making cars that North American's like and will buy.
Given the current marketshare of American manufactured vehicles on the road, I also think that they are also doing something right and also making cars Americans like to buy.
Didn't GM, at one point, own an incredible 60% of the market? Wasn't Pontiac, at one point, the most profitable brand from GM?
Whereas Toyota, upon its first entry into the NA market, had to close shop. Only upon its second attempt was it able to sell cars to Americans.
Plain as you can see.. visit alldata.com will you? Read the notice yourself.
Why don't you Honda owners think this is wrong to hide TSBs? Doesn't this raise any questions at all??
Carguy.. so you called your Honda service person and talked about TSB's you knew of.. and some tht ARE NOT posted on the internet?? Doesn't this make you question anything??
You talk of blind loyalties to "American car companies" Can't you say there is also a blind loyalty for Honda owners to Honda??
Get out on the net people, there are plenty of peeved off Honda/Toyota/Nissan owners out here who were expecting perfection....
I do understand what scape is trying to say here because I too am a little bored with the whole "Japanese cars are perfect" stereotype. Hiding repair data doesn't exactly show people that problems do exist with some of them either. I happen to be married to someone that thought that way a few years ago (for the record, I never did). Now that we own one (she bought it before we married, without consulting with me by the way), she's "seen the light" and doesn't really buy into that stereotype any more. Would we buy another Japanese car again? Definitely. But she was also the one who chose the Escape over the 2002 CR-V. Lesson learned I guess. Anyway, for those people that take TSB data seriously when shopping, Honda will look like some kind of miracle company to them. All I can say is that we learned the hard way, and so can they.
The Escape had some initial recalls almost 2 years ago now, yet suffers from the stigma of being problematic. How do we know the CRV doesn't have as many problems or more than the Escape if the TSB information is witheld?
BTW I told you how I dragged my four cylinder with the V6 and it was neck and neck from 0 to 30 twice, although the second time the V had a slight advantage. Then from 30 to 60 the V clearly pulled ahead from 50 to 60 mph. So that said, I firmly believe the 4 cylinder is good enough and the Honda does have less problems. Remember, these are first hand experiences.
You made a statement. I asked a question about that statement. You gave an answer that was not responsive to my question.
1. Please, if you are so inclined, answer my question: how TSBs affect success/failure of a automobile model.
2. Also, again, if you are so inclined, please review the data/statements at www.nhtsa.dot.gov with regard to the 2001 and 2002 Escape and recalls and complaints.
Also, in some ways it would be in Honda's best interests to publish these TSBs openly to save on free work given out by their mechanics... there are some of us who are fairly good mechanically and are able to fix issues on our cars without needing to take it to the dealer (I'm not quite one of them, but I know a few guys who are). The only reason to withhold them, however would be to either keep confidential information from getting out (And anything involving known issues with a consumer vehicle should NOT be confidential, since we are directly affected by it) or to give the appearance of vehicles having fewer problems then they actually have.
That being said, its unfortunate that they can legally withhold TSB information, since it is owned by the car company and can provide reliable data about known issues with a vehicle. Most manufacturers other than Honda are willing to provide this information, especially in order to comfort comsumers....basically saying "Yes, we've seen this before, and we know EXACTLY what to do about it." I know I'd feel better knowing they know exactly what they should be doing. And there's a few things I COULD do myself, especially with the help of my mechanically-inclined friends. But Honda doesn't give that option.
Yes, the Escape has had recalls. Yes, the Escape has had TSBs issued and has a lot of issues with it. But, we all know what to do about either or, and we know the dealer knows about it and has a procedure for it. Honda makes it more difficult to know. Assuming they'll tell you in the first place. And some Honda mechanics might not do that.
It's also an issue when vehicles finally make it out of warranty... this fixes it so only the dealer has the procedures to fix certain things that might go wrong with the vehicle, so you're stuck paying the dealer's labor costs instead of going to your own mechanic who might charge less. And what happens if there's no dealer within a convenient distance?
It's advertising basically.... they use this to promote an image that may or may not exist. Honda has ALWAYS been about the IMAGE of a solid, reliable car. Many of them are reliable, yes, but knowing how many TSBs have been issued and the content of them can be a factor. Even Toyota provides this data, and they're Honda's strongest competitor from Japan.... some say they're even better than Honda right now. They may or may not be, but anyone who actually shows me what's going on with a car will win my trust over a company that tries to hide things and be secretive.
You ably argue reason's why a manufacturer might publish TSB's. But, to my knowledge, TSB's are not generally published...are they? By anyone. My introduction to TSB's was as abstracts of TSB's, which I could get through a third-party provider, if I ponied up the money. So why aren't TSB's published for free? Ifit's such a great idea that they flow freely to the public at large?
There is ample evidence outside the TSB's (which are a rather specialized thing, and not widely known or read...again so far as I know) that Honda makes some of the most reliable cars on the road. Government recalls being one source of information, complaints by consumers, reviews in papers, other media, here on the 'Net. The opinion of fleet-managers, which were sampled in some publication or other that I read, Consumer Reports, and other like publications. Etc. Etc. If Honda were to begin to fall in reliability, it is far more likely that the fact would come to the attention of the general public via an other medium than reading the abstracts of TSB's, or the public paying, in mass, for the more detailed information.
I do not know why Honda has chosen to restrict desemination of its TSB's. It may very well be for the reasons you and others of your persuasion have theorized...but I deem it highly unlikely, extremely unlikely. And if that is the reason, then it is doomed to failure, since reliability is measured by so many other sources in so many other ways.
There is a saying among lawyers: If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law, pound the law; if you don't have the facts or the law, pound the table. This TSB bruhaha is so much table pounding. I've said my piece. I withdraw from the issue.
I've seen on this board, several Honda owners state that the high number of TSB's against Ford products is an indication of its quality.. (I also dis-agree that the number of TSB's has any correlation with the reliabilty or quality.)
Just looking at the summary, you can see plenty of purely informational ones, and several that are duplicated thus increasing the count.
We've given our speculation of why Honda would withhold this information. I don't think there's any 'smoking gun' in the Honda list of TSB's, but merely Honda trying to prevent any information from being release that might be construed (correctly and incorrectly) as negative towards Honda's quality..
You state that its is 'extremely unlikely' that this is the reason that Honda is witholding its TSB's, but you offer no opinion of what you think Honda's motivation is.
As these forums are for sharing theories and opinions, I find it strange that you simply say someone elses opinion or theory is wrong, without offering one of your own that would explain the events.
Your other points are well received in that there are plenty of other statistics that also give indications of these vehicles reliability and quality. But that wasn't in the scope of this particular discussion,I thought we were discussing why we think Honda would choose to hide TSBs from the public via nhtsa site.
TSBs are useful for the home mechanic.
This is the most compelling argument I see. I can understand why you might "want" to know. However, these are internal documents owned by Honda and you do no have any "right" to them. Also, Honda has not denied access to TSB information. They have simply removed it from website listings. You can find the information through several other sources. Less than a week after it was published, HondaSUV.com had the TSB number for the rocking seat issue that a number of owners had reported. It was then cross-posted at every CR-V site I frequent.
The number of TSBs is an indication of reliability.
Bess is correct. This is bogus, regardless of who the manufacturer is. First of all many TSBs have nothing to do with mechanical fixes. They may be changes in policy, equipment use, or corrections to documentation. Second, there is no standard regulation for TSBs. If GM has ten problems and they haven't fix them, then no TSBs will be issued. OTOH, Volvo has ten problems and they issue ten fixes (10 TSB's). So it looks like Volvo has more problems.
TSB's can be used as a tool for buying a car
This one makes no sense to me, at all. If a TSB has been issued for a fix, then the problem should be fixed, no? If I buy a new car, it should already have the fix. This is the same logic Scape2 has been using with regard to the Escape's recalls.
Also, as was noted above, there are much more popular, reliable, and less difficult ways of checking on reliability. JD Powers, CR, Strategic Vision, and other all have frequent reports on statistical reliability (or, more specifically, quality in some cases).
Obviously, the first thing is it looks like they don't have as many problems as other manufacturers (which may be why mags like Consumer Reports have such a love affair with Honda). But it also may mean that they don't want anyone knowing how MANY problems they know about, and what they're doing to fix them that they aren't telling you, as the owner of the car, about. For all we know they could be using these to distribute procedures on how to fix MAJOR defects in vehicles before anyone finds out about them, while they're in for scheduled maintenance or something. That would be another reason to hide them.
Another would be protection of corporate secrets, which is actually a perfectly valid reason.
We don't know what's in the minds of Honda Corporation, unless someone's asked them. But the results are varied... if independent mechanics can't buy Honda TSBs from publishers, it makes it harder or impossible to fix Honda cars for anyone but a Honda mechanic. it can also give the impression that Honda has something to hide. Or, it can give the impression that Hondas have fewer problems than any other car, and have no REASON to issue many TSBs, much less publish them to the public (even in abstract). That part is open to individual interpretation.
I personally would never buy a car I can't get TSB information on, either good or bad. I want to KNOW that I can get information on it at some point without having to go to a Honda dealer, because that knowledge might be necessary to me if the only Honda dealer in the area closes up shop. Knowing a company is willing to share information about the car I bought with me with as little restriction as possible engenders a feeling of trust for me with the company... I know no matter how many problems there are with the car, they'll tell me all about it, fix it, tell me they've fixed it, and keep me in the loop. But that's just me. Others might feel differently, and they have every right to feel differently, after all. It's up to each person to decide whether not seeing Honda TSBs makes you feel better about the company, or worse, and then make your decision on whether to buy a Honda.
By the way, just on a side note goldencouple, lawyers ALSO say "if the facts work against you, hide them as much as possible."
But then you completely blow off the people who are posting here every week on the net at edmunds, about problems they are having with a vehicle that is the same as yours. You just say all the perceived problems are initial quality recalls, and everything's all better now.
???
I realize you love your vehicle. I love mine, too.
But I realize other people's experiences are different from mine, and just as valid as mine.
Peace.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5240
1. TSB's can give a person who is doing research a look into how a vehicle may perform. Thus, if one car company is not releasing information and another car company is, whom do you think is going to look better?
2. People must READ the complaints and take note of how many are duplicates at these government sites. The initial recalls of the Escape/Trib models is still popping up as a reason why some will not buy this vehicle. Yet, they don't actually read the data and see that these recalls only affected certain build lots and dates of Escapes/Tributes.