CR-V vs Escape

scape2

for Honda. Reading more and more around the net of people who have or had issues with the Accord, CRV, Civic and other Honda vehicles. As Honda fans know customer satisfaction for Honda has also slipped by a fair margin. With quality of ALL vehicles going up across the board, what will Honda have to offer? not much. Honda had one heck of a run no doubt. More comsumers are finding out you don't need the silver "H" to have a good, reliable and quality built vehicle. It was only a matter of time for this to happen in a market driven economy. I foresee a buyout of Honda in the next 10-15 years. Honda will not have the $$$ for new reasearch/capitol to invest in new plants, R&D ect.. Sales trends for Honda are also in a flat curve, not like 5 years ago when the line was at a very good upward trend.

drive62

"With quality of ALL vehicles going up across the board, what will Honda have to offer?"

Just a few things like a well-engineered, good quality vehicle with state of the art safety features that has one of the highest, if not the highest resale value no matter what category of vehicle.

"I foresee a buyout of Honda in the next 10-15 years."

Any other predictions?? Where with the S&P 500 be? Will Hillary be an ex-President? Feel free to enlighten us as I plan to check back in "10-15 years" to see if you are right.

stevedebi

" Reading more and more around the net of people who have or had issues with the Accord, CRV, Civic and other Honda vehicles"

The Internet is a pretty poor representation of quality. People with problems tend to look there, trying to find Information. Thus it is skewed. I can't speak to everyone's vehicle, but we have a 2002 Civic and 2003 CR-V, and have had no problems with either, except for a "rocking seat" on the CR-V which was fixed under warranty.

I think that Honda build quality is more consistent than Ford. This is my opinion as a former Ford owner. I all depends upon which Ford you get and what day of the week it was assembled.

stevedebi

"There is a significant difference updating an existing vehicle and putting a brand new model into market. You don't need to be whiz kid to undestand that."

Well, the 2nd Generation was completely new, including the engine. It shares very few parts with the 1st Gen model.

And Ford had a lot of experience in building SUVs when they designed the Escape (though I grant the Escape is car based, whereas their other SUVs are truck based).

dromedarius

Now that it's over for Honda, notwithstanding the fact that they had their best sales month ever in April, they produce the most fuel efficient line of cars in the world while gas prices continue to rise, and Ford and GM are having to offer "employee" discounts in order to offset the huge supply of new cars they have rotting in their lots, I'm going to need something to replace the value of my CR-V when it crashes along with its maker. Could you give me the lucky five numbers for my lotto picks? Please, as a Honda owner with no hope, lend me a hand.

baggs32

The Internet is a pretty poor representation of quality. People with problems tend to look there, trying to find Information. Thus it is skewed.

Baloney I say!

The same can be said for all of the other quality guides we see every day. At least with the internet you know who you are taliking to most of the time. Mags like CR and firms like JD don't tell you their demographics but yet people trust them.

One of my main beefs with CR is that they only survey subscribers (Just like they only recommend manufacturers that pay them off :P ). Guess which vehicles the subscribers buy and therefore have the largest return during survey time. Talk about skewed!

dromedarius

Like Honda, they're done. They'll be sold within five years, and I believe they'll be done in 10-15 years. They just don't make a product anyone wants anymore. They had a good run, but it's over now.

dromedarius

"The same can be said for all of the other quality guides we see every day. At least with the internet you know who you are taliking to most of the time. Mags like CR and firms like JD don't tell you their demographics but yet people trust them."

I completely agree with you here! I know everybody that posts in here personally. Well, OK, maybe I don't, but when you Consumer Reports vs. Scape, you have to take the word of Scape, right???

"One of my main beefs with CR is that they only survey subscribers (Just like they only recommend manufacturers that pay them off ). Guess which vehicles the subscribers buy and therefore have the largest return during survey time. Talk about skewed! "

Yet another excellent point! Honda's advertising budget allows them to buy ALL the publicity they want, where a small shop like Ford is at the mercy of CR. Ever since they started selling here, Honda has been bullying the domestics. They keep making those darn efficient cars, while everyone knows we want oversized cars with oversized engines. Through it all, they keep selling efficiency and efficiently. It's no wonder they are able to buy good publicity.

scape2

Today sales increases were released. Honda was the lowest with a 9 percent increase. Nissan was 13 percent!! OK, Ford was 1 percent. Now, lets look at 1 percent vs 9 percent of TOTAL auto sales vs Honda TOTAL auto sales. These numbers can be very misleading. To someone who doesn't see the whole picture a 1 percent rise vs a 9 percent rise seems very large. An 8 percent difference. Yet when you look at the whole picture. A 1 percent rise in Ford sales equates to about a 20 percent rise in Honda sales.
Looks like GM is picking up steam with its new campaign of "You pay what we pay". Ford is going to follow suit next week. It all comes down to this folks. I used to own a Honda. Thinking it was going to be the best vehicle out there. The car was boring, predictable, no character, had some minor problems. What will Honda do now that its only advantage, reliability, is gone? I'm not just talking about GM/Ford I am talking about Hyundia, Nissan, Subaru ect... With the internet, people are learning that you don't need the silver "H" to have a reliable, quality built vehicle. And another bit of news. I work for a Japanese company. I asked a person from Japan who is number 1, 2, 3 in Japan. Guess what? Toyota is number 1, Nissan number 2, Honda and Mitsubishi are about even at number 3!! LOL!@....Subaru is coming on fast

dromedarius

You use other people's figures to calculate how you are doing. Therefore, when I got a raise this year, I had to factor it against the $27 million Shaq makes, and it equaled less than a fraction of a percent. Even though it was nearly $20,000, it wasn't what Shaq makes in a game, so I am now very upset, as is Honda, I'm sure, since their sales increased only 9%. Now you have me thinking about what the Waltons and Bill Gates are making. Thank you for ruining my life.

mikefm58

At the examples from dromedarius, good ones.
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And then LOL at scape2, same song and dance, Honda gloom and doom. A 9% increase is still better than Ford's 1%. And to be honest, with GM employee pricing giving GM a 41% increase, I expected to see Ford & Chrysler sales way down.
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Kudos to GM for hitting the market just right. I read Ford & Chrysler are about to follow suit. I'm hoping this is a trend that keeps going. Bet the dealers hate it. I feel sorry for them.

scape2

can a 9% increase be better than a 1% at Ford? Please explain how? Don't you understand how many more TOTAL cars, trucks, SuVs, vans, ect Ford sells than Honda. The 9% increase is from total sales my man... Do you understand what a 9% increase at Ford would mean?
Not gloom and doom, the truth. Get out on the net, visit other auto chat rooms. There are plenty of peeved off Honda owners out here. I work for a Japanese company, its in their culture to "save face" hide problems and issues. Beleive me, I deal with them day to day...

baggs32

Um, the second quote you commented on contained a joke which is the only thing you commented on. As I said, CR doesn't really let you know who is returning their surveys but they do let us know that they don't advertise or accept monies from manufacturers.

tidester

An Emotorcon sometimes helps to avoid confusion.

tidester, host

mrsnarkypants

I'm a CR subscriber, so I've done their surveys.

Noone has ever asked me for my CR survey answers like car dealers and homebuilders have hounded me for JD Power surveys.

Since JD Power surveys are funded by the businesses who are paying for the right to quote them, I don't take much stock in them, whether it's for an airline, car manufacturer, or whatever. JD Power is a sales tool. It's not a consumer tool.

stever

J.D. Power is a marketing company for sure, but they fund their own research. link. CR has their own set of issues, which you may want to discuss over in Consumer Reports.

Steve, Host

mikefm58

" can a 9% increase be better than a 1% at Ford? Please explain how? "

I see you flunked math in school. Assuming I make $50K per year and you make $100K per year and I get 9% raises each year and yours are 1%, how many years before I'm making more than you?
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Don't think I'm saying Honda sales will eventually pass Fords. I'm just pointing out to you that 9% increases are better than 1%. I'm sure the numbers comparing GM and Toyota were similar 30 years ago. And guess who will be the #1 auto maker in the world in a few years?

tidester

how many years before I'm making more than you?

That would be 10 years and Scape would have earned $286,575 more than you over that period.

Of course it's unlikely that both rates of increase would remain constant over that period. Perhaps we should stick to discussing the vehicles and leave Econ-101 for another forum.

tidester, host

baggs32

An Emotorcon sometimes helps to avoid confusion.

I know and this one :P was present. That's why I was so confused by his response.

mikefm58

" That would be 10 years and Scape would have earned $286,575 more than you over that period "

Now do the math over the next 10 years to see who made more?

stever

It's a non-starter - Scape would have put that $285k in a money market and retired to Maui after ten years while you are still slaving away. :-)

Back to the merits of the cars, eh?

Steve, Host

mikefm58

" That would be 10 years and Scape would have earned $286,575 more than you over that period. "

Let me reiterate the issue of the discussion for you Tide, what is better a 9% increase in sales or a 1% increase? Which would you rather have as a pay raise this year?

'Nuff said, last post from me on this Steve.

baggs32

OK, where on earth did the 9% and 1% figures come from? :confuse: :confuse:

Here's what I see on the Ford and Honda OFFICIAL media sites here and here. The Ford brand's (not to be confused with the whole company which consists of many brands) June sales were up 2.9% compared to last June. CYTD sales were down 5% compared to last year. The Honda brand was up 3.6% in June and up .3% CYTD.

Now the companies as a whole. Ford Motor Company June sales were up .7% compared to last June. June CYTD sales were down 4.6%. American Honda June sales were up 4.7% and CYTD sales were up 1.6%.

For some reason USA Today reports a 2.5% loss in June sales for Ford and a 41% increase in GM sales. The Ford number came from the Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln brands only while the latter figure came from all GM brands. Why? Beats me!

Now were the 1% and 9% figures came from is beyond me. Can someone elaborate a little please?

tidester

Since you've declared your last post on the subject I'll simply pose a rhetorical question then we can all move on.

You start with 0 and I start with 100,000. You get 100% raises ad infinitum and I get paltry 0.01% raises ... well, on second thought, I won't ask the question!

Have a great 4^th everyone!

tidester, host

mikefm58

" OK, where on earth did the 9% and 1% figures come from? :confuse: :confuse: "

See post #6270 from scape2.

explorerx4

there are different ways of measuring the numbers. you can use calendar date to calendar date sales. you can use sales per day over a certain number of days. i'm sure there are others.
check out the honda stats page at the bottom. last june there was 1 less selling day than this year. year to date there was 1 more selling day. this is the method they use.

blueiedgod

Courtesy of Racoon, who posted info on the "other" site

Small SUVs compared in this article:

Honda CR-V EX
Hyundai Tucson GLS
Ford Escape Hybrid
Nissan Xterra S
Jeep Liberty Limited (turbodiesel)
Quote:
The Honda CR-V, which gets 21 mpg overall, easily topped this group and finished just behind the Subaru Forester, our top-rated small SUV, which also gets 21 mpg...The CR-V rides comfortably, handles well, and has a spacious, well-conceived interior. Prominent road noise is its only notable fault.

Complete Consumer Reports Small SUV rankings:
(vehicle model - predicted reliability)

1. Subaru Forester 2.5 X - Excellent

2. Honda CR-V EX - Excellent

3. Toytal RAV4 - Excellent

4. Toyota Matrix XR/Pontiac Vibe (AWD) - Very Good

5. Hyundai Tucson GLS (V6) - new

6. Ford Escape Hybrid - new

7. Ford Escape XLT (V6) - Very good

8. Honda Element EX - Excellent

9. Nissan Xterra S - new

10. Hyundai Santa Fe - Very good

11. Mitsubishi Outlander XLS - Very Good

12. Saturn Vue (V6) - Poor

13. Chevrolet Equinox LT - new

15. Suzuki XL-& EX - Good

16. Kia Sorento LX - Good

17. Land Rover Freelander SE - Poor

18. Jeep Liberty Sport (V6) - Good

19. Jeep Liberty Limited (turbodiesel) - new

20. Pontiac Aztek - Fair

:P I wish there was a sign for raspberries!

Sorry Racoon, for lifting the text from the "other site"

scape2

Amazing ho the CRV rates as "Excellent" for reliabitliy, yet has how many recalls? along with the engine fire fiasco? Also have to wonder, what is the difference between "Very good" and Excellent? I can say both my Escape and my wifes Tribute have been "Excellent"..

dromedarius

The Escape hasn't had problems with recalls???

:sick:

varmint

Whatever problems there may be with CR, the fact that several other publications (using various methodologies) have come to similar conclusions kinda puts some weight there. You can nit pick at the details, but the end result is pretty consistent across the various long-term reliability studies.

dromedarius

In all reality, I'd like to see Baggs, or better yet, Scape, show a publication that DOESN'T have the CR-V on top in long-term reliability. You can cry "CONSPIRACY" (which frankly, makes absolutely NO sense), you can protest the technique to gather the data, but in the end, it's like the old saying goes, "you can't fool all of the people all of the time." Unless the Honda is fooling "everybody", it's pretty clear which vehicle is more reliable.

explorerx4

since i don't have a subscription to cd, what is the difference between excellent and very good?

baggs32

If that's what makes you two sleep better at night then so be it.

I have not seen any proof that any of those surveys presents fact. I've pointed out several flaws with their various methodologies in the past and all I get back is "well they all have similar results and I own a CR-V so it must be great". You guys can't possibly take those measures as seriously as it seems you do. Do you?

If you do I feel bad for you. CR pretty much told it's readers to stay away from the Mazda6. I have one and I can honestly say that I'd rather push it to the shop 364 days a year just to be able to drive it one day and not have to drive something like a Taurus, Camry or Accord. Same goes for the Escape. Yeah, I read CR's opinion on the Escape before we bought and and did loads of other homework. But since test drives aren't illegal I know I bought the right vehicle.

Drom,
What constitutes a "reliable" vehicle to you? I already know Varmint's definintion and am curious as to what you have to say.

dromedarius

"I have one and I can honestly say that I'd rather push it to the shop 364 days a year just to be able to drive it one day and not have to drive something like a Taurus, Camry or Accord. Same goes for the Escape."

I think this pretty much says it all. At least your honest. It's okay to admit your biased. The only thing is, maybe you should keep that in mind when you accuse every reliability study of being biased. Despite what you say, they really have no reason to be biased, and scientifically, they are much more likely to get it right than you and I are, which is why it pays to read what they have to say.

BTW, for me, reliable is something that drives almost like new at 100,000. Japanese cars seem to have this problem. I've owned many American cars, and NONE of them had this problem. I've decided to give an import a chance, and so far, I like what I have.

wrascal

BTW, for me, reliable is something that drives almost like new at 100,000. Japanese cars seem to have this problem. I've owned many American cars, and NONE of them had this problem. I've decided to give an import a chance, and so far, I like what I have.

I have greater expectations, 200,000 miles basically trouble-free.

So far my wifes 97 Ody has 179,500 miles. Its required numerous tires and several alignments, 2 batteries, replaced a broken exhaust hanger (armidillo strike), the required timing belt and recommended water pump, brakes once, (soon to be repeated) and an ignition switch recall. And a windshield. I just checked its file.

My 98 Accord is still too new to judge, only 85K, had to replace the radio and ignition switch (both under warranty), tires and a battery.

My 98 CRV at 90K, has required tires, a battery, seat covers (to keep them clean)and the ignition switch recall.

My Ford 98 F150 also has had no repairs, (excluding a knob for the heater) but it's so uncomfortable it only has 70K. Again, tires, a battery, and a windhield.

Previously owned Hondas with similar results: an 87 Accord, an 89 Accord, a 91 Accord, and a 94 Civic. The 87 Accord, and the 94 Civic, were both accident damaged, and replaced prematurely. One at 180K, the other at 99K.

varmint

They all use different methodologies. All of those methodologies are flawed. Yet, they somehow rate the CR-V (and Hondas in general) consistently near the top. That's one heck of a coincidence.

I'd offer to calculate the odds on that, but my methodology would probably be flawed.

baggs32

The only thing is, maybe you should keep that in mind when you accuse every reliability study of being biased. Despite what you say, they really have no reason to be biased, and scientifically, they are much more likely to get it right than you and I are, which is why it pays to read what they have to say.

Maybe I wasn't 100% clear because I don't think they are biased. I joked about it but I don't believe they are. At least not intentionally. What I do think is that the information they provide is sometimes taken a little to seriously. None of them present us with fact or proof of anything but yet a lot of people use their outcomes as such. That's just not right for many reasons.

However, I am not suggesting they just be tossed aside and be left for dead. They do have some value I'll admit.

BTW, for me, reliable is something that drives almost like new at 100,000. Japanese cars seem to have this problem.

That's a pretty tall order! For me, I just want it to start up every day and get me from A to B. If something breaks, that doesn't affect driveability, along the way then so be it. I won't be discouraged.

We had a '96 Civic that definitely didn't have the problem you defined above. However, it was still reliable by my standards. I just hated it. A lot.

suvtime

When will the Escape be getting a full model redesign? I know they changed a few things on the 05's, but shouldn't Ford be getting ready to release a all new version soon? By many accounts the Escape already lags behind the CR-V and the RAV-4 in terms of overall refinement.

And with Toyota bringing out a new RAV-4 with a V6 option for 06 and Honda releasing an all new CR-V in 07, it seems like the Escape is going to be left behind. With a V6 starting to be offered by Toyota and who know's maybe Honda the Escape's only real advantage, towing, will be gone. Seems like Ford better get busy designing a new Escape.

mikefm58

Looks very nice........Love the styling

stevedebi

" And with Toyota bringing out a new RAV-4 with a V6 option for 06 and Honda releasing an all new CR-V in 07, it seems like the Escape is going to be left behind. With a V6 starting to be offered by Toyota and who know's maybe Honda the Escape's only real advantage, towing, will be gone. Seems like Ford better get busy designing a new Escape."

Don't hold your breath. Ford has historically run on a 10 year design cycle, with only sheet metal updates in between. Ford and Toyota run on about a 5 year cycle, for a full update, with occaisional sheet metal updates between.

stevedebi

"Looks very nice........Love the styling"

What exactly is different about the styling when compared to the Escape ICE Limited?

mikefm58

I didn't see it on the dealer's lot, just saw it driving by in traffic, so can't give any details. I saw another one on the expressway today also.
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It's got a "Hybrid" badge on the sides and back and I think the trim colors are different.

stevedebi

Ah, so you consider colors as styling, that make's sense now. It had thought that perhaps there was some actual sheet metal difference.

scape2

lacks "refinement" there is that status quo word again... The 05 Escape is just as
"refined" as the CRV or RAV4. The 05 has improved over an 01 Escape, I know, I own an 01 Escape and have test driven an 05 Escape XLT 4WD. The 05 has nicer plastics, better fit/finish and is hands down quieter than an 01. These are improvements, and "refinements". Including safety options like side air bags, and the new safety cage. I too am eagerly awaiting an updated version of the Escape. What I am reading however is the Escape is not going to get an updated look or even the newer 3.5 V6. The feeling I am getting is Ford is going to do small improvemtents or add-ons over the next 2-3 years. The the Escape will be replaced with something else....

rav4u

The RAV4 is not as refined as most people would have you believe. The famous dash cowl rattle has been going on for years and still hasn't been fixed at the factory level. Instead it's just passed off at the dealer level with a kit that may or may not work even after a few trips back to the dealer. Sounds like a pretty lame way to address a problem and does nothing, but add frustration for the consumer. Refinement to me means you address and fix the known problem before it reaches the consumer. Toyota has failed miserably with respect to the cowl rattle problem.

scape2

to hear about your furstration with your RAV4. The new one sounds pretty nice. the small V6 Toyota is going to offer is going to give you more flexabiltiy.

scape2

Edmunds posts the consumer reviews. Wow! you can really see how stats can be skewed. Only 2 reviews for the Escape and at first glance looks to be a vastly inferior vehicle to the CRV. CRV has 170 reviews!! wow! With the Escape outselling the CRV about 1.5 to 1 I wonder where the heck are all the Escape owners? Do they not own computers??? :confuse:

stever

I count 234 total consumer reviews for the Escape. Consumer Ratings & Reviews. The Escape gets an 8.9 rating across the board to the CR-V's 9.2.

Here's the CR-V's Consumer Ratings & Reviews.

Steve, Host

rav4u

The new RAV might sound good, but I would not buy one. A complete redesign that will be built at a new facility in Canada from what I read is bound to have some glitches that I wouldn't want to deal with. Maybe the second year might be better, but only if Toyota improves its customer service. Every time my RAV needed a part it was never in stock and took a week to get it and another week to make an appointment to install it.

mcdawgg

Not having parts? I never have that problem. Of course, I only ever need the usual routine maintenace, except for the cowl rattle. Ours was fixed 4 years ago, still perfectly queit today. Sounds like you need to switch dealers. It is surprising that this is not corrected at the factory, but this is the ONLY complaint I have had about Toyota, so I'm still happy. Now back to the fun with the Escape vs. CRV topic...