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Because we all know of Hondas supremacy in the automotive and engineering world. Ford drivers are too busy looking for cheaper gas (going to dealer for recalls/trying to sell a gas hog/admitted they bought an inferior product) and don't have time to post. Honda drivers have all the time on their hands because of the excellent fuel economy, they don't have to go to the gas station as often and the $0.05 in price difference does not make too much of a dent in the wallet. :-)
I think this post should fire up the converations again :-)
And Ford owners have all crossed over to Mexico, whre majority of Fords are built. At least our cars are built by educated people in an industiralized countries (UK and Japan), while Fords are built by poorly trained people in a third world country because Ford can pay them significantly less than US workers.
Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Honda Pilot, Honda Ridgeline, Honda Oddysey, Honda ATV's, Honda power equipment are all made in the US and Canada. And starting in 2007, Honda CR-V will be made in the US as well. Ford on the other hand, keeps pushing more and more models to be made in Mexico.
At least my money support US's middle class, while Ford and GM owners support the US's wealthy, who keep getting greedier and greedier.
Prime example are recent Bancrupcy filings by Delta. Average Delta executives make $10,000,000 year with all the fringe benefits and bonuses. While they keep asking the workers to give up 20% of their pay. Is that fair?
Same with Ford. The executives keep getting bigger and bigger paychecks, while the US middle class keeps disappearing. At least a Japanese company, like Honda caps the executive pay at 20X of the lowest paid employee. Which forces a greedy executive to raise employess pay if he wants a bigger paycheck.
I suuport a company that supports US middle class, while you support the company that perpetuates the greater division between the poor and the wealthy. Hope you feel good about your choices.
Huh? They have one plant there that used to make the ZX2 (not the Escort sedan), then the Focus (only about one third of them), and now they will build the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr (all of them) there. The latter three do not make up the majority of Ford's line by any stretch of the imagination. Ford builds more F-150s in the U.S. than all of those Honda's you listed COMBINED. And that's just one of their U.S. built models.
At least my money support US's middle class, while Ford and GM owners support the US's wealthy, who keep getting greedier and greedier.
So the assembly line workers at all of Ford and GM's U.S. plants make up the U.S. upper class? I think they'd beg to differ.
I'm sure those execs you're supporting over in Japan are really hurting. They probably live in straw houses and can't even afford a bike to ride to work.
Get your facts straight before you hop on the soap box next time. :P
I do have my facts straight, you are the one who does not want to admit to being wrong.
So the assembly line workers at all of Ford and GM's U.S. plants make up the U.S. upper class? I think they'd beg to differ.
Average Ford assembly worker makes $25-$30/hour, that is middle class everywhere but the coastal USA. East and West coast are exceptions because of the much higher cost of living. $100K makes low-middle class in those areas. $50,000-$60,000 annual salary is what makes middle class in most of the US. Most of the people who were laid off by Ford and GM were not able to find jobs that paid close to what they were making. In majority, these people only have high school education at best. They end up on unemployment, or working for the evil Walmart for $7/hour.
Since 1982 Honda has been increasing its manufacturing presence in the US, while domestics have been laying people off, left and right. Even Korean Hyundai started making its cars here.
As far as cars being built in Mexico, we have a 2005 Escape, even though it is ASSEMBLED in the US, majority of components in it are from Mexico. All I had to do is pop the hood and read the labels on each of the components, but the engine are made in Mexico.
Ford builds more F-150s in the U.S. than all of those Honda's you listed COMBINED. And that's just one of their U.S. built models.
How many of those are being sold at a loss, and how many of those have been recalled recently?
I'm sure those execs you're supporting over in Japan are really hurting. They probably live in straw houses and can't even afford a bike to ride to work.
I have lived and worked in Japan, have you?
A japanese executve does not have a 50,000 sq. ft. home.
A japanese executve does not have a salary that is 500-1000 times the lowest paid employee.
A japanese executive does not lay off people when the company is not doing good.
Japanese executive lowers his pay and does not receive bonuses because the company is in trouble. A japanese executive realizes that the company is not doing well because of the ill decisions he has made. He lives up to his wrong doings, rather than just lay off workers who have been working hard for all these years, only to make the bottom line look good.
A japanese executive will make sure that if he has to lay off an employee, he will call his friends at other companies to find this employee a job.
A japanese executve does not concentrate on the compny's bottom line, and stocks alone, but rahter on the a long term effects his decisions.
When GM was not doing so good, Honda and Toyota raised their prices to help GM stay a float (check out pre-March 2005 and post March 2005 invoice pricing on Honda and Toyota). Ford on the other hand, copy catted the "Employee pricing," for the lack of innovation, to make GM's survival more difficult. If Ford or GM had a chance to get rid of Honda and Toyota as competition, they would do it in a blink of an eye. Who is evil here?
Steve, Host
I'm not trying to start a fight with you but you did say BUILT and that is what I responded to. For that matter all of the Japanese models are just assembled here too. Most of the parts come from other countries. And I know that because I used to own an American assembled Civic which consisted of mostly foreign parts.
No I never lived or worked in Japan and I never will. So the Japanese execs don't live in big houses, big deal. They're still making a great living if the company is doing well. You're trying to make it sound like they're some kind of martyrs.
BTW, Bill Ford is not accepting a salary this year and has not accepted one since he took control of the company.
How many of those are being sold at a loss, and how many of those have been recalled recently?
No F-150s are being sold for a loss and none of the new models have been recalled. IIRC the only two Ford vehicles being sold for a loss were the Taurus and the Focus. That was a while ago so things might have changed.
Your facts were wrong to begin with, as posted mind you, but I get your point after correcting yourself at my expense. :P
Be careful what you type as the rest of us can't read your mind. :confuse:
According to Forbes.com, Ford's US market share has dropped from more than 25% to less than 19% since 1996. They continue to offer underpowered vehicles (the Escape is one of the few exceptions), it takes them forever to bring a new generation to market, and the styling is bland to say the least.
The current Ranger was introduced in 1993 and isn't scheduled to be replaced until 2010. The Freestyle was introduced last year and might get whacked after this year, again, according to Forbes. Does that make any sense? 18 years of one generation for one vehicle, two for the entire car's run for the next???
The Escape is scheduled to get whacked as well. The only vehicles Ford seems to be dedicated are the F-150, Explorer, and Mustang, all gas guzzlers. With gas jumping to $3.00 a gallon and beyond, it's only a matter of time until Americans jump ship and start buying fuel efficient Japanese cars.
I can't help but feel I jumped ship at the right time. Honda is perfectly poised in the market with their hybrid, VTEC and VCM technology. Other than Toyota, no other manufacturer offers such a blend of power and economy at an affordable price. The only American carmaker that comes even close is Chevrolet, but they are a ways off still.
I have to give props to Chevy though, since I think their employee discount program is going to keep them afloat since manufacturers now have to keep their inventories low. It's killed the trade-in value of domestic used cars, but being the first to take action, Chevy will survive.
I like the tact Chrysler has taken as well. They always seem to have the most visually appealing vehicles from the domestics, and they are offering more and more power, and while everyone else is getting more efficient, the marketplace is still big enough for one domestic to make Vipers, Magnums, 300Cs, Chargers, and the like.
That leaves Fords, which are generally underpowered, bland, and prone to recalls. They certainly have their work cut out for them. The Escape was one of the few good vehicles they have, and even that wasn't enough. Even if it was, rumor has it that the next generation CR-V will have in the neighborhood of 200 hp, from the same 2.4 liter architecture. I guess it was just a matter of time.
Now, to TCO.
This is all wacked out. I punched in my Escape and Edmunds says I paid 24K for this vehicle. Wrong.. I paid $20,800 for it. Edmunds says I also paid over $4K in maintenance?? for what? they don't say. I have paid about $500 in maintenance over the 5 years I have owned my Escape. Edmunds also says I paid over $800 dollars in repairs?? I have paid $120 in repairs on my Escape... These numbers are all VERY misleading. Talked with a friend who also owns an 02 Ford Escape. Punched in the TCO on it also and he could not belive these outragous claims and numbers for maintenance and repairs. His repairs.... $0.... Go figure...
explorer4X4: I even put a disclaimer in my post saying I don't know of any discernible difference between an 05 Escape Limited and an 04 Escape Limited, so I've come to the conclusion you read (and comprehend) what you want to. Are you sure you aren't scape in disguise?
:sick:
FTR, I keep reading how all us Honda owners keep calling the Escape a terrible vehicle. Other than a couple sarcastic replies to scape's "enlightening" posts, I've always said it's a good vehicle. One of Ford's best. I'm not sure if that's saying much, but I also know it isn't as good as the CR-V. There's nothing wrong with being 2nd best to a Honda.
That was mean! (Sorry - couldn't resist!)
tidester, host
Steve, Host
honda may be the best choice for you, but it is not for everyone.
Did you know that Honda is ranked as #8 in worldwide auto production? Ford is #3? Do you understand what that means? really? Honda is like a drop of water in a bucket to Ford. AND.. Honda has lost ground and continues to loose ground in worldwide sales? Hyundia is a few thousand vehicles away from passing Honda. Just saw this on Autonews. Predicted is Honda will fall next year to #9... Also... did you know Nissan is #5?? Keep up the big talk, numbers show it all... as much as people Ford bash, Ford seems to still keep chugging along....
Top performers are ... Standard Mid-Size Sport Utility Chevrolet Equinox/Hyundai Santa Fe; Compact Sport Utility Hyundai Tucson/Honda Element,,,,
AutoPacific Announces 2005 Vehicle Satisfaction Awards (kvia.com)
Lincoln did well but they do seem partial to Nissans.
Steve, Host
Where are you getting this from? I did look under the hood on Saturday while washing our Escape and don't see what you're seeing. The engine has a big sticker on it that says it was made in Ohio and the majority of the other parts, hoses, wires, and such, don't really have specific markings as to where they were made but they do have the Ford logo on them. I stood there and looked for "Made in Mexico" stampings for a good 3 minutes. I found one part, and no where on it did I see a Ford logo stamping as was the case with the other parts under the hood. Therefore I'm assuming is is a third party part and not specific to Ford.
Furthermore, I don't recall the exact percentages but IIRC the sticker on the side window that shows where the parts came from for the Escape (all vehicles now have one of these while on the lot I believe) specified that the overwhelming majority of parts the Escape consists of came from the U.S. and Canada. 75% or 80% IIRC. Not Mexico. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't see where this is coming from at first glance.
You paid for Escape that was designed by a Japanese firm, Mazda. Apparantley Ford execs did not think that Dearborn R&D could design something that could compete with CR-V, so they paid a JAPANESE firm to desing it.
You do realize that Ford owns a controlling interest in Mazda and therefore did not pay them right? Also, Mazda did not completely design the Escape by themselves. I forget who did what exactly but it went something like Ford did the powertrain and interior while Mazda did the chassis and driving dynamics (suspension, NVH levels, etc.). Mostly because the origin of the Escape is a very, very heavily modified Mazda 626 chassis.
While I'm on this line you should also take note of what Ford is doing jointly with it's other brands. Specifically the Mazda6 based Fusion and the Mazda3/Euro Focus/Volvo S40 line. Do a search and see what you find out about them. I think you'll be quite surprised. Ford realizes today's economy and is adjusting. Give them a few years to get everything on line before writing them off.
explorer4X4: I didn't realize the way a rear hatch opens would weigh so heavily on a person's decision to buy one car over another. My family's safety and saving money over the long haul, both in trade-in value and at the gas pump, weighed much heavier on my mind than a hatch with which I've never had trouble.
everyone has their personal priorities. we were looking for a small 4wd wagon, but it had to have a lot of upscale features(leather, power moonroof, etc.). we have had wagons for many years, and the often used practicality of a top hinged rear hatch just makes the most sense. also we did not like that there is basically no rear bumper on the crv.
the crv does provides great value, it it not everything in a decision when you buy.
if you are worried about feeling safe, you don't want either. there are too many other larger vehicles out there. if you hit a bridge abutment in either, we will reading what a nice person you were in the obits. i'd rather have you make another post on this forum.
did what i hate to do, reply without doing any research. :sick: lets see how they sell.
I understand that, and there weren't a lot of small SUVs that had that a couple years ago. The Escape and the Liberty come to mind, but they were in the minority. Now, however, the CR-V comes in leather, as does the Sportage. I believe that while the Escape has always been a solid vehicle, other vehicles have caught up or passed it.
As far as the CR-V is concerned, it has more standard safety features, gets better gas mileage, more interior room, better TCO, and superior reliability. The downside for some consumers is they absolutely HAVE to have a V6, whether it has to do with towing or offroading, or they just have to have a bigger engine. In that case, I'd advise people to take a good long look at the Sportage and the Liberty, as well as the Escape/Tribute/Mariner.
The Liberty is by far the better offroader, and it pulls a lot more. It also is just as good on gas, or better in the case of the diesel.
The Sportage comes way cheaper than the Escape, by several thousands, and comes standard with traction control, vehicle stability assist, and airbags all around. It can also be had in leather with 4WD (lockable), and it gets better gas mileage than the Escape.
My point is, the CR-V is the best at what its designed to do. It's a great vehicle for town, the open road, and in bad weather. It wasn't designed to be a workhorse, so that's why it isn't very good at it, but it excels at what it's supposed to do. When the Escape was introduced, it was the premier compact SUV with a V6. That's no longer the case. It might be better in some instances than the Liberty and the Sportage, but each of those vehicles is superior in some aspects, and the one thing that really sticks out about the Escape is it isn't the best at anything in this group.
The Liberty is more powerful, the Sportage is cheaper, both are available with V6s, and the CR-V is the better commuter vehicle. It would be nice to see Ford update their products more than every seven years in order to keep up with the increasingly stepped-up competition.
An interesting note about that, Ford claimed to have bought Volvo primarily for the S80 (not sure about the codename) platform because they were so impressed with it. It's a good thing they did it when they could. :surprise:
Yes it's good what Ford is doing with Mazda and Volvo but GM doesn't seem to get it yet. For some reason they thing re-badging a small Japanese station wagon as a Swedish luxury sport wagon is a good idea. Saaburu is a cool name though.
If you're not going to try to make it your own, don't make it.
With the future crop of small luxury utes on their way (Acura RDX, MB MLK, Infiniti CX35) it would be smart for FMC to co-develop the next Escape with a smaller Volvo XC model. It'll make the next Escape platform that much more impressive if they let Volvo have input.
Sounds good too. However, everything I've read recently points to a Mazda6 based crossover, like this or this. Right it is code named Edge and will fit between the Escape and Explorer. Then there's the possibility of a smaller SUV which could spell the end of the Escape.
Supposedly there will be another Freestyle (currently based on the Volvo XC platform) after the current one moves to Mercury in a year or two but it looks like it will be a competitor to the minivans. Not sure if it will still be an XC in disguise though.
Why do you think Ford needs use the XC platform for an entry level SUV? Sure we'd all like to see that, but It would probably be too expensive and they really don't need to compete with the models you specified. They have Volvo, LR, Lincoln, Jaguar, and to an extent, Mercury to do that. Ford is better suited to compete with their parents, Honda, Chrysler/Dodge, and Nissan instead.
we get about 20-21 mpg in normal driving. highest tank matched the epa highway of 23 mpg. on a trip, it should be able do better than that.
Scape2, try telling the entire story. The NHTSB site clearly says that the latest incidents are the result of human error by the technicians changing the oil.
Try punching a hole in the oil line of your Escape while it is running at speed and see if smoke results.
I am still planning on posting to this forum when I hit 200K miles. Will you make that committment?
PS - I checked NHSTA.com. It doesn't seem like they think my car is going to start on fire either. I don't know what you're talking about, and neither do they, it seems.
PPS - I know you have "Selective Recall", but maybe you should go do a search on Fords and engine fires. They recently just issued the fifth largest vehicle recall in American HISTORY, for engine fires in which people have DIED.
:lemon:
PPPS - I used the bold and italic tags, just in case your reading ability isn't selective.
The NHTSB site lists a fire for a 2005, with non-removal of the oil gasket as the cause.
i can live with it. just keep throwing your whiffle balls at each other. :P
did i mention i almost got my knee broken during a whiffle ball game over labor day weekend?
I also think Ford makes a mistake in not offering a viable four cylinder. It seems like this is a problem with all of the domestics. They seem to offer a smaller powerplant, but only to encourage people to buy the larger one. It's sad that we are even comparing a four cylinder with a six cylinder, but it only took me a couple seconds to realize the Honda i-VTEC was far superior to the Ford four cylinder, and arguably on par with the Escape V6 in everyday driving.
Ford will really be exposed in the next year or so, when the new Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V are released. The RAV4 will reportedly be bigger and offer a 3.3 liter V6 as an option, and the new CR-V will reportedly offer a 200hp 2.4L i-VTEC. Also, this will be the second generation of each vehicle released since the Escape debuted, which was originally supposed to trump the first generation RAV4 and CR-V. How can you (Ford) realistically expect to successfully compete with vehicles which have undergone two upgrades since the Escape was first released??? It's another classic example of Ford dropping the ball in a market in which they should be a huge presence.
a lot of things are a matter of perspective. honda makes terrific engines. in a small suv, i don't really care. i prefer a high torque lower revving engine(think buick).
i guess with the new super rav4 or crv you can beat a cavalier in a drag race.
that is not what i bought the escape for. my guess is most others don't either.
Regards
Jack
Explorerx4, I just have to comment on something you said.
I guess with the new super rav4 or crv you can beat a cavalier in a drag race.
that is not what i bought the escape for. my guess is most others don't either.
Seems like you could've come up with a better defense for your beloved Ford rather than saying that the Owners of the Escape would rather spend money on a V-6 that is outgunned by a roomier car with less cylinders, displacement, and better economy. Earlier in these posts (look back, you'll see) people give praise to the Escape, knocking the CR-V for missing a V-6. Apparently, Honda fans should be knocking Escapees!
By the way, I drive neither of these vehicles, and frankly I wouldn't buy a CR-V because my father's had the oil filter problem (it fell off, ran dry. the dealer bought it back at high cost to them). Just wanted to mention my non-bias.
that is not what i bought the escape for. my guess is most others don't either.
To add to what thegraduate said, apparently some people DID buy the Escape for that reason (read scape2's post over the last four years). The sad thing about the new and improved Toyota and Honda is that while they will have equal or superior power figures, they'll still likely be FAR superior in terms of MPG.
If the past is any foretelling, this is also true. I failed to mention the devotion to class-leading fuel economy that these two Japanese makers have. Thanks, drom..
Why does Honda offer a V6 in the Accord? Acura? if thier 4cyl engines are so superior?
Engine fire issues still are a concern. Honda has done a great job in saying it was human error.. yet why doesn't it happen on other Honda vehicles then? Design flaw. But becuase it has a silver "H" they can get by with it, its ok.
I am already at 60,000 miles on my Escape. No problems. I was told over and over by Honda fans my Ford was garbage, going to brake down... Blah, Blah, Blah. I am your worst fear. A Ford owner with a reliable and great vehicle. Resale value... You paid more for your CRV upfront, along with a higher interest rate. You better be able to sell it for more. By the way. I owned a Honda Accord.. resale was not that great. Honda's are pricey, this is no secret. Even Toyota's are showing to be much less. As an Example you can get a Honda Accord LX for 19999 or buy a Camry LE for 18,000! whats up Honda fans??
I cannot answer why Ford/Mazda decided to put a lower power 2.3 in the Escape/Tribute. The same 2.3 is in the 6 and the new Fusion and rates at 160HP. My guess is Ford will bump it up in the coming year or two.
The Escape is more of an SUV than the CRV. Very apparent when you tow, pull, haul. As much as you want to believe the 4cyl in the CRV is as "powerful" as the V6 in the Escape... Nope, its not, never will be...
By the way, the CR-V is 2.4 liters, not 2.6, as you say.
I made the comment and CLEARLY stated that I was referring to acceleration figures of Escape and CR-V. I never saud that the SUV could out-tow it, only out accelerate it. As for people telling you what garbage you had just spent more than $20k on, I'd suggest getting some new friends. I don't know you and wouldn't dare bash you or your decisions like that. I don't think the Escape is garbage, only dated in relation to competition that has released vehicles since the Escape was released.
You mention interest rate...My father got 1% (great credit goes a distance at our bank). He paid 18k and change for his 2002 CR-V. The last escape comparably equipped I saw was not far from that, so I think your grounds on value are a little shaky.
When did Accords come into this? I'll mention that too, since you bring it up. A Camry Standard and Camry LE are 2 different cars. A new LX Accord competes favorably with the Camry price for a car COMPARABLY equipped.
Calm down buddy, we don't knock your decision, especially since you love to tow. The CR-V just makes more since for those NOT towing, i'e' all but one person on my block.