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Comments
People perceive things differently, so be careful with those blanket statements (not saying I disagree, however). You'll just kick start another brawl to get the forum closed down again...
Car review magazines, unbiased consumer reviews and statistics (as in resale) are just some of the areas that back up my statements.
They sure do for the most part but as grad said, people perceive things differently. None of what you using to back up your statememts is fact as you mentioned before. Therefore it can and will be perceived differently by others.
And what Honda did you own before going with Ford?
It's a fact that the CR-V has a higher residual value than an Escape.
It's a fact that a comparably equipped CR-V has a lower MSRP than an Escape.
I don't make this stuff up it's available in black and white from numerous sources.
There are people who refuse to accept the above and many other facts. You can lead a horse to water...
i don't think the cr-v knows what it wants to be. i doubt if there will be many owners of the current iteration of the cr-v posting here, just those that have been left behind. :P
Those were the exact sentiments of Top Gear Magazine (in Europe - tested the diesel version) exactly. It is good at a lot of things, but not the best at any one particular (although in its class, I think interior execution is its strong point).
It is a family hauler, a weekend garden-shop tool, and a City Runabout-Vehicle. It's all of these things.
What an identity crisis!
Still better than the new Camry to me though!
Buttons? Where'd that come from? You've lost me bud...
escape looks trucky? it is suppsosed to, but i don't really want to go into style, it is very much personal preference.
Yes, trucky. Where the Honda looks like a Crossover Soft-Roader, the Escape still looks like a good-ole truck-based SUV, like the Explorer. Neither is bad, they are just getting more different each time the CR-V is redesigned, and everytime the Escape isn't.
each iteration of the cr-v gets closer to the basic escape design. the cr-v has it's hits, but a lot of misses on the basic design. the escape got it right the first time.
name another same suv/csr that copied the cr-v design(s).
It's a fact that they recommended it but the conclusions they base that recommendation on, namely their poorly run survey, does not present us with any facts.
It's a fact that the CR-V has a higher residual value than an Escape.
On average it does but not always. Therefore it is not fact.
It's a fact that a comparably equipped CR-V has a lower MSRP than an Escape.
That is a fact but you didn't state MSRP in your original post.
I don't make this stuff up it's available in black and white from numerous sources.
I know where it all is and I've seen it all. You might want to think about what you are reading a little more rather than take it word for word.
There are people who refuse to accept the above and many other facts. You can lead a horse to water...
I've accepted the fact that I will only drive what I want and not what some magazines, unbiased consumer reviews, and people who are smitten with the latter two lead/tell me to drive.
I'm sorry, I just respectfully (although completely) disagree.
Original CR-V:
To me, that original 1997 looks the most like the Escape.
Gen 2 CR-V (02-06)
Gets more rounded in that iteration, more rounded than the Escape has ever been.
Current CR-V (2007)
REALLY rounded, more like Edge than Escape to me.
Of course everyone buys the vehicle they feel is right for them for whatever reason. I look at this issue analytically, personal opinion doesn't matter to me. Facts are facts. Not sure how else you want data presented. You seem to be one of the horses
A fact is a hard truth not the result of analysis which has margin of error and can vary vastly depending on how the research/analysis is carried out. I work in research and I see it all the time. Yes CR, I'll pick on them for now, recommends the CR-V and not the Escape and that is a fact. The way they reached that conclusion is what needs questioned because their ratings are not based on any fact whatsoever. They guide you in a reasonable way and most likely their ratings are correct in regard to the final result where one vehicle is said to be better than another. However their little circles need to go because they don't put everyone on an even playing field.
Honda and Toyota don't enjoy the quality and reliability advantage they once had. Almost every manufacturer has caught up to them and it's pointless to use those two attributes as arguing points anymore. Therefore one's decision to buy one of the two vehicles being compared here should be based on things like features, price, appearance, and feel. The biggies like safety, reliability, and quality are just hairs to split.
You seem to be one of the horses
Nope. I wouldn't let anyone lead me to the water in the first place. I can find it all on my own.
So do I. Disregard CR and there are still numerous facts available that support what I have said in the last few posts.
Plenty of people here refuse to believe published data. Not sure what else to say.
The only fact I saw you post was that CR recommends the CR-V over the Escape. Big deal.
Plenty of people here refuse to believe published data. Not sure what else to say.
There's nothing wrong with believing published data and I never said that there was. What's wrong is that people, yourself included, present those data as fact which they are not. It's plain wrong to do so and it is misleading to others. Even CR calls their annual issue a "guide" rather than a "factbook" or "manual".
From post #8100 I for one don't trash the Escape. As the thread states I compare it to a CR-V and I think it's clear that all the evidence points to the CR-V being the superior vehicle.
For some the Escape might meet their needs better than the CR-V, but the CR-V is the better overall vehicle in terms of quality, reliability, resale value and engineering.
If someone doesn't agree with this assessment they are ignoring the facts or interpreting them incorrectly.
This is ironic because by calling the evidence (things you mentioned like resale ratings, reliability ratings, etc.) you use to make a purchase decision facts you are actually the one mis-interpreting the evidence since evidence can be refuted but facts can't. Therefore evidence is not a fact.
A fact is a 100% truth. All those ratings out there are nothing more than averages. Saying the CR-V is more reliable than the Escape is a fact is not true simply because you can get a CR-V that is a lemon. It is more reliable on average as far as we know because that's all that's presented to us. How much more isn't even obtainable from those publications because they don't use equal sample sizes nor do they verify that the owners submitting the surveys actually own the vehicles they are rating. The latter is probably a very small problem but a problem nonetheless.
Maybe I'm mis-interpreting your statement?
I think Consumer Reports provided cause to be at least somewhat skeptical with the retraction of their Car Seat Report.
tidester, host
People should note you are speaking of a 2006 or earlier Gen 2 CR-V. The 2007 has the spare under the rear floor, and a more conventional automatic transmission location (though still not on the floor).
i found out the escape v6 is capable of some very good gas mileage. my wife is always trying to get somewhere so she doesn't get great mileage. over 37k we have averaged 19.5 mpg. overall, i can see why people like them so much.
I would still look to them for researching a new vehicle purchase, rather than Car and Driver, Motortrend, etc. who put too much weight on frivolous aspects of an automobile.
You mean like how it drives and performs. Yeah, who would be interested in that? :confuse:
Although you can pick out your next household appliance along with your car in CR. That there is excitement if you ask me. :P
maybe a lot of people don't care what CR publishes until they write that their kids could be killed. :mad:
tidester, host
You can read a good auto review in Motortend, than read a three page ad for the same auto following it.
CR tests on average 4-6 autos in most issues. Plus an annual auto issue. Just as much as most auto "mags". They even leave some space for toasters.
With over 4 million hard copy and 2 million online subscribers, they survive without advertising. This IMO contributes to unbiased and objective testing.
tidester, host
I visited the site, and both were rated 5 of 5 (2004). What's not to like about that?
According to the site, the Escape had engine reliability problems in 2000 and 2001. The 2002 CR-V had some kind of issue with the drivers side door. The Gen 1 CR-V indicated problems with the EGR valve and evap canister (1997 - 2001, of course the Escape wasn't built for most of that time).
That's a fine opinion to have and I have no problem with that. However, you have to realize that they recommend Hondas and Toyotas quite often, therefore most of their subscribers are bound to be Honda and Toyota owners. Don't you think that by making the subscriber base, i.e. their soul source of income, happy is the best way to go? Did it ever occur to anyone that their survey returns are heavily weighted towards the vehicles they recommend?
You can read a good auto review in Motortend, than read a three page ad for the same auto following it.
IIRC there's a big old Ford truck ad in the current MT where a Chevy has been crowned "Truck of the Year". A Ford was in the competition BTW.
If you think any of these rags are out to save you from corporate America, think again. They are all out for their own good no matter what they say.
Based on the very wide amount of products they test, people subscribe to CR for many reasons. Many of these may not even own a vehicle. Some may be just interested in a toaster purchase.
The horse comes before the cart. Do you think if a Honda owner had a very bad service record with his vehicle, he would send CR a favorable survey about that vehicle?
A recent issue tested and gave the Ford Fusion a very good review. CR could not yet recommend the Fusion because it is an entirely new design, and had not yet established a reliability base. I'm sure if CR sent a survey to a Fusion buyer, (who happened to be a subscriber because of a toaster purchase), and that person sent back a good Fusion survey, CR would recommend it if the number of surveys from happy Fusion owners were sufficient.
I don't think any rags, including CR will save me from "corporate America". If as you say they are all out for their own good, and in that sense are "evil", then I believe CR is the lesser of these "evils".
Unless CR forces Honda and Toyota owners to give glowing reports on their vehicles when they otherwise would not and throws out the good reports from Ford and other domestic owners how exactly would CR have bias? Paranoia will destroy ya!!
For me, I won't trust a mag that tests toasters.
They test consumer products (Consumer Reports get it??) ranging from (picked two from the latest issue) mail order roses to treadmills. Automobiles and trucks are consumer products that take a big chunk of people's money, so they devote a good portion of each magazine to vehicle reviews.
Either you buy in to what they do or you don't.
Well we own both a Ford Focus and a Honda Oddysey. I was invited for a random survey (it is not often I get one). I have subscribed for the CR magazine for many years. I definitely would stop my subscription If CR magazine recommendations were not in-line with my experience. So far I have had only one bad experience buying their recommendation (Maytag washing machine). But that is what statistics is all about.
In general Honda and Toyota quality is better than a Ford or GM quality and that is the reason the public are putting their money where their mouth is. While Ford closes plants, Honda and Toyota build more plants in the US.
I think I just read that to meet demand Toyota wants to build their eighth manufacturing plant in North America. They now sell more vehicles here than they do in Japan. I'm pretty sure Ford doesn't even have that many active plants any more, even counting Mexico.
But of course when you buy a Honda or Toyota the money spent goes back to Japan and not to any of the tens of thousands of US and Canadian workers at the plants, right scape?
The way this is stated makes it look like the problem was serious. You fail to mention the cost of the problem and what it is... Why?
"But of course when you buy a Honda or Toyota the money spent goes back to Japan and not to any of the tens of thousands of US and Canadian workers at the plants, right scape? "
Directed at me, so I respond.. Show me where there are "tens of thousands" of workers at the Honda/Toyota plants here in the U.S. They hide all the workers they have shipped over from Japan to support these plants. Plust the American public doesn't ever know where the tooling/machinery and support comes from. These are the better paying jobs that require higher education..
East Liberty, Ohio
Anna, Ohio
Georgetown, KY
Princeton, IN
Greensburg, IN (under construction)
Those are all plants that are within 3 hours of where I live.. Each of those plants have over 5000 American employees. In addition, within 90 minutes of each of these plants, are suppliers/vendors that employee twice as many workers as the plants themselves..
Japanese workers shipped over? Toyota has their North American manufacturing headquarters about 15 minutes from my house.. They have a decent number of transplants there... but, hardly enough to support more than two or three Japanese restaurants..
The difference between these plants and the Big 2.5 plants that are close? These plants are expanding and the employees' jobs are relatively safe. Ford is closing one of their two local transmission plants, and employees are being bought out.
Most of these plants pay around $18/hr. There are plenty of jobs available in the USA for those that have higher education. There is a much greater need for well paying jobs for those that don't have that education. The Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes and Hyundai plants have the most sought after jobs in every region that they operate. And, local governments are competing for those jobs.
Even people from Missouri can see that...
regards,
kyfdx
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Here in Alabama, Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, and Honda have brought thousands of jobs to the state. With thousands of jobs come many tax dollars flowing into my state.
These three companies are flourishing, best I can tell. They are boosting my state's economy, best I can tell.
Actually, my neighbor's brother (who graduated from my high school about 4 years before I did) services the repairs the robotic machinery at the Honda Odyssey plant in Lincoln, AL (near Talledega). He has a college degree, and got it from Auburn University, if I recall correctly.
I guess that's one worker you can strike from your list that could've been "secretly shipped from Japan."
This is turning away from the topic and they are going to shut this forum down soon.
As long as the host is participating in the discussion, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "I wouldn't count on that."
Yes, but the SUVs hosts would prefer the topic drift to be of short duration.
tidester, host
Let's get back on topic!!
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Whatever you say. haha...
When is the updated Escape set to his showrooms?
I had a different experience. We owned a '96 Honda Civic and a 2002 Escape, which we upgraded to from a '98 ZX2, at the same time. The Civic gave us far more problems than the two Fords by far. CR was wrong about the Civic and the GE TV they recommended I buy around the time we bought the Civic. I was never a subscriber though.
In general Honda and Toyota quality is better than a Ford or GM quality and that is the reason the public are putting their money where their mouth is.
I agree that Honda and Toyota quality are GENERALLY better than that of the domestics and I said that in one of my posts. I also said that the difference isn't that much anymore and it's just silly to let some stats make your purchase for you IMO.
My argument was that someone was calling the ratings from consumer orgs facts and that is not a fact.
IIRC April or one of the "M" months it's sandwiched between.
Well, it caused a red "X" on the MSN reliability ratings. Check the original post to which I was replying to get the link. Which I believe you yourself posted...
Others responded with the facts so all I can say to this is wow.