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That has never been proven. All we have is info from surveys and such which isn't always on the mark. Take into consideration how Honda tries to hide as much of it's information on problems as they can and you have to wonder a little more. Then factor in how they sell about one third of what Ford sells and the overall percentages start to look even better.
Looking at just the CR-V and Escape? Then I'd have to say that the CR-V probably has fewer problems per vehicle. Although, I can't prove it, nor have I ever seen anyone try. The Escape will get better as time goes by though. It just had a really bad first year. The CR-V could have been the same way for all we know. It was selling in Japan for a year or two before it came to our shores. I don't think varmint even knows anything about that first year or two and he's the CR-V "expert" around here.
"There's a Budget rental commercial running now for an Escape. I've also seen police/taxi/utility versions out there. Some are probably NG conversions for low emissions. Even with these extra sales numbers, it still not topping the V."
In that same commercial they advertise the Mustang as a "roomy mid-sized car". Have you ever tried to sit in the back seat of a Mustang? Just thought it was funny.
Honda sells to fleets too. Hondaman has stated that he rents them all the time in Canada. Even CR-V's. Those don't count towards U.S. sales figures (I don't think so anyway), but it shows that Honda isn't innocent either.
By the way, the Escape (alone, no Trib numbers factored in) has outsold the CR-V for the past three or four months. Last month's sales should be published today.
If Honda's really are so great for the environment, the people who could benefit from it apparently aren't listening.
Looks to me like Honda out sells Ford in every segment Honda has a vehicle in.
How about the Windstar? Where is it? Nice how Ford cars are WAY behind Honda. Way, way, way behind.
I betcha if the list continued, the CR-V would be ahead of the Escape too.
Seems to me, the people that could benefit, are.
Nice!
Chalk up another one for the V. You make this so easy!
The sales numbers posted were for one month. Careful on the chicken count, all of the eggs haven't hatched.
Hiding what? Open your eyes, it's all on the NHTSA site. Or, didn't you read that post?
My point is that the Escape should be doing far better. According to the data provided by Bess, the Escape has 9 out of 10 advantages in it's corner. It also has a much larger dealer network. Yet, it still lost last year's sales race.
Q: Why didn't it crush the CR-V?
A: Because the CR-V is a good enough vehicle to overcome those hurdles. How else can it be explained?
In 1997, there wasn't enough data to support reliability stats. Only 60K units were sold. In 1998, the CR-V was the top rated minisuv according to Consumer Reports, but the field was limited. It was also raked #1 in initial quality by JD Powers. In 1999, the CR-V repeated it's top ranking in CR with a few more models to compete with. In 2000 and 2001, the CR-V was ranked the most reliable SUV (regardless of size) for both years. The 2000 ranking was also high enough to place it as the #1 most reliable vehicle in any class.
In 2002, the CR-V was completely redesigned. It was released in North America and Japan at pretty much the same time. That year, it was not ranked for reliability by CR-V (too little data). However, JD Powers ranked it the #2 vehicle for initial quality. The RAV4 took the #1 slot. The most recent information from Consumer Reports ranks the CR-V back at the top of the small SUV class. This includes data from both the 2002 and 2003 models.
So, yeah. The redesigned CR-V's first year was far better than the reliability/quality track record for the Ford Escape.
The dealer I use for our company used to own 2 or 3 dealers (Honda, Toyota and I think at one time Nissan) so his preference is those types of cars. I cannot always have access to Hondas due to the limited availability of models but we always stick to imports as much as possible because of the rather large numbers of rentals and bad past experiences (domestics). This is our opinion and we stick to it based on first hand experience and not reviews.
When I rented the Tribute last year, it had 300km's on it and was a nightmare for me and cost me 2 days of missed meetings! Scape says he is on to 20000 miles or whatever and no problems! Good for him! The idea of it being a rental is bogus because I have rented for 20 years and never experienced anything like that before even if the cars had 20000 km's on them! This vehicle was faulted from the beginning and even the dealer told me that!
I have always tried to use my large experiences over the years as part of this discussion board and that is how I became a Honda owner 14 years ago. I have owned many cars and 9 (soon 10)Hondas..... these have only been the ones that NEVER gave me a problem so far! BUT that is my experience now isn't it?
Many were issues of 'price'. In which many here have indicated that the CRV is just as competitivily (sp) priced as the the Escape. A few of the issue are subjective in nature (how the vehicle exterior and interior look), which I clearly stated in my opinion I prefer the look of the Escape. Its obvious that others like the look and feel of the CRV. Another aspect was dealer service which Honda owners here have since indicated that their dealer service was a painless as any.
So is the score really 9 out of 10? I think that is debatable.
What is obvious to me is that both vehicle are great vehilces.
You go on to mention that in recent months the Element is dipping into CRV sales. The whole time the Escape has been out, there has been the Tribute twin. (in which combined sales have always surpassed the CRV). Also, how likly is it that the world SUV sales leader (Explorer) is dipping into Escape sales.
Would do some off-road dirt-track, nothing serious and mostly, 95% around city/highways. The Escape is about $2,000 less (available now and 4x4 not available). What would you go for? I'm not intending to do any towing and after all the debate here I see performance is about equal (except towing). So, is better Honda build and reliability and safety and the fact that's it's 4x4 worth the extra money over the better looks of the escape? I just wonder how many escape owners would say go with the Escape instead.
Oops. I didn't even see that chart at the bottom. My bad. I thought it seemed strange that the Taurus was outselling the Accord and Camry in CA.
Just my 2 cents.
A: Because the CR-V is a good enough vehicle to overcome those hurdles. How else can it be explained?"
The Escape has been beating it in recent months though. Sep 2002: 993 more Escapes were sold. Oct 2002: 2494 more Escapes. Nov 2002: 1450 more Escapes. Dec 2002: 2190 more Escapes. Jan 2003: 437 more Escapes. 11,695 Escapes were sold in Feb 2003 which was up 28.4% from last year's 9,108. Honda has not posted Feb sales yet.
August 2002 was the last time the CR-V outsold the Escape (about 1300 units). The CR-V won the year by a few hundred units. Tribute sales are not being counted here.
...Sakuji Arai, Honda Motor Co.'s chief engine engineer for four-cylinder engines, says the company's engines, if given scheduled maintenance, should last for 20 years or 200,000 miles. "That's the Honda DNA; it's in the genes," he says.
Tougher testing procedures are one way Ford engineers have been designing parts to last longer.
Goeser says Ford's durability target for some commercial vehicles is 250,000 miles, and she expects the standard for passenger vehicles to rise as well.
Ford has developed a series of tests that mimic the lifetime of the vehicle, Goeser explains.
She says there are several factors that can impact the durability and reliability of a part: manufacturing tolerances, customer usage patterns, systems interaction and environment.
"Back in the mid-1990s, we reset our targets on vehicle design for 10 years or 150,000 miles," Goeser says. "You can reset those targets, but then you have to have testing and engineering in place to deliver that. So, we've been on this journey. Every year for the past six years we have made improvements."
So Ford engineers cars to last 10 years or 150,000 miles and Honda set their goal at 20 and 200,000 miles.
Here's the article. If the big3 admit they've lacked quality, can you?
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=42685&a=a&b- - t=honda&arc=n
Its obvious to me you have never loaded your CRV down with weight/gear
I do believe that the Escape WILL slightly outperform the CR-V when loaded. It's just to me the difference was not significant. Here is a some comments I posted in another forum:
2. Acceleration and passing was excellent for a fully loaded vehicle. Very good from 50-80+mph while passing slow traffic. With the cruise set at 80 it does downshift going up the longer steep grades but still easily maintains your set speed. The engine remains incredibly smooth at any rpm. I did get up to over 90 mph while overtaking two trucks and this little engine just kept easily pulling until I got past and let off.
BTW: We traded in a 98 Nissan maxima for our CR-V so I'm coming from a vehicle the easily outperforms the Escape and the CR-V and yet I'm still not disappointed with the CR-V's performance.
Towing, I do two my two watercraft and the CRV couldn't do it...
I don't dispute that the Escape will tow better, however after towing many watercraft and small boats myself a small SUV just wouldn't do for me.
What I really do enjoy about all these CR-V vs Escape discussions is that we sometimes forget are comparing Honda's 2.4L 4 cylinder engine to Ford's 3.0L V6. Although the V6 does hold a slight advantage overall (except against the CR-V 5-speed 0-60) Honda's 4 cylinder is a good match. Why is there never any discussion of the Escape's 4 cylinder vs the CR-V's 4 cylinder? Because Honda's 4 cycinder so overwhelmingly outperforms Fords that it's pointless to discuss it! Now let's imagine if Honda decides to level the playing field (engine wise) by throwing in their version of a 3.0L V6. Which by the way is rated at 240hp!!! Yes, the price would go up but, the CR-V would leap light years ahead of all small SUV's in EVERY performance category and you better believe that Honda dealers couldn't keep them on the lots!!!!!
Anyway, just something interesting to think about.
Reed
Besides, no one ever said Honda's engines weren't some of the best.
That's what I love about Honda. This is the way they have thought and designed from the beginning. They were never forced to step up and change their way of thinking and doing business as many others have had to just to stay competitive.
Reed
We've discussed this before. The 3.0L 240 HP Duratec is used by Jaguar. Ford could easily match Honda in that respect if they had to. VVT and all. The 220HP Duratec in the Mazda6 would probably be a better choice for these small SUV's anyway. 240 is too much.
Sure, there are flaws but, you have a greater chance of flaws with other manufacturers.
If you can't live with a vehicle for 5 years, I'd think re-sale would mean a great deal to you. Unless you're so wealthy the money means nothing. Or, if you get a great employee incentive package that offsets the loss your incurring.
Yet the Escape always outsells the nearly identical Tribute. Why? INCENTIVES!!!!! Ford screws Mazda on incentives. The Mazda6 is a great vehicle. Watch as Ford takes the Mazda developed platform, creates a Taurus/Sable and kills Mazda by offering killer incentives.
Not really. I only said that I don't like to live with a vehicle for more than 5 years. That doesn't mean I don't have to. Our Civic is nearly 7 years old now and I don't think anything but the engine will make it past 10.
"That's the beauty of it. Honda and Toyota design the ENTIRE vehicle to last WITH the engine."
I find that hard to believe. Most older Japanese cars I see are rusting away to nothing. I know a guy who had to get rid of his Tacoma because the bed fell off of the frame. You know why? Because they sent them over, un-painted, from Japan on a ship. Salt water + untreated steel = rust, rust, rust.
Our Civic, which was built in the U.S., has nothing to protect the lower door panels from the elements and is showing some corrosion in places where rocks have chipped away at the paint. Our old ZX2, along with many other Fords, had some sort of protective coating applied to the lower portion of the body. My Dad's 91 Escort has this same coating and rust is nowhere to be found in those areas. Now around the trunk lock where someone scratched it up with keys over the years is a different story.
Nope. I didn't forget the Tribute. The Tribute adds a whole other dimension to the list of advantages for the Escape. Adding Mazda to the fray adds another set of dealerships, advertisements, and population of brand loyal customers. Instead of Honda competing against 2 to 1 odds, now we have something closer to 3 to 1 odds.
Also, the Tribute is not sold on the same showroom floor as the Escape. They don't sit side by side in competition. We'd like to think that most buyers have done some research and made up their minds before setting foot into the showroom, but the truth is many purchases are impulse buys. I know several Element owners who cross-shopped the CR-V and Element right there on the showroom floor.
I'm not saying that the Tribute does not affect Escape sales. I'm sure that it does. But we're still not talking about a level playing field.
Ford:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=14547&ma- ke_id=trust
Honda:
http://hondanews.com/Forms/corp/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db- -query-Show***003268***-wieck_media***-***corp(directory)***.ws4d- ?corp/results(r)_text.html
That's the 6th month in a row for the Escape.
If you live in the mountains (out west, or in West Virginia), then maybe there is some advantage in the 4x4, other than that, it is a waste of money. The other exception is if you want to do any 'true' off-roading, but the Escape/CRV although capable, aren't really designed with that in mind.
Some will mention the better resale value of the 4x4, however note that you will pay more for the 4x4 to begin with and it depreciates just like the rest of the vehicle.
ium in ny. of course i recycle. i even drive my 16 mpg pickup to the recling station, as everybody in the country does.
jf
Response #2
say we are going to run out of wil in 50 years. then say we improve mileage 10%. so when do we run out of oil? six months later? what's the
difference.
also remember that most suvs have normal range mileage, about the same as bigger cars, mercedes, lexus, bmw. it is only the very big boys--hummer,
suburban, toyota sequoia, nissan armada, ford lincoln navigator, that are in the 12-16 mpg range. they are a small part of the suv picture. the sell more saturn vues than hummers.
jf
Please excuse my rudeness in my previous email.
I personally don't drive my 16 mpg pick-up to the recycle center. I don't
own a 16 mpg pick-up.
While I understand your contention that many larger cars get around the
same fuel economy, that wasn't what your article said. You suggested that
replacing SUV's with Honda sedans wouldn't make a difference. Not replacing
SUV's with big luxury cars.
The Ford Explorer is the best selling SUV in America. It gets 14/19 mpg
dropping 20-25 pounds of smog forming crap into the air over 15,000 miles.
The Honda Accord is the best selling sedan , it gets 26/34 and drops 0-1
pound of smog forming crap in to the air over 15,000 miles.
How about recanting your statement. It was completely irresponsible on
your part. And, flat out incorrect.
That is understood. However, the same applies for the CR-V and Pilot. Though, with the Ford pair, you have a car-based versus a truck-based match. With the Hondas, both are car-based. For that matter, as noted above, CR-V sales stopped beating the Escape last summer. The Pilot was introduced (take a big guess) last summer.
Your implication that all 4x2 Escapes have the 4cylinder is simply wrong and misguided. (and you have the nerve to talk about other's irresponsible posts).
With the lack of extra weight for the 4x4 system, and lack of any driveline drag, the 4x2 Escape with the v6 will probably outperform the 4x4 Escape.
Bess, you're right on the button. icvci, thanks for that review. I had come across it before but it helps to remind me. I should have mentioned that I was talking about the V6. The impression I'm getting is that the escape even only 4X2 is a serious contender to the CRV, 4x4. Now for the good part. I tested the escape 4x2 (V6) today. To be correct, my wife and I tested it. (I had to calm the wife down as she sat in the driver's seat for the first time.) It was that good. I will tell you that I now know why some like it so much. When I put my foot on the pedal, man is that some sweet engine or what. Handling was superb, responsive and accurate. I marked off some concerns I had come across from the reviews (which I won't bore you with) to look out for on the test drive. It passed on all, except one. It was a little windy here today and with all windows up, at 80 Km/hr the wind noise (rather, wind sound) was noticeable, but no big deal. I tried it around town, part highway (up to 90Km/hr only, as it was only a short stretch and there was too much traffic) and across some bumpy, pot-holed dirt track. My verdict. Very nice indeed,and comfortable. Now I am test driving the CRV tomorrow. I will put it through the same paces as I did the Escape. It will really have to impress to beat the Escape though. We'll see.
Here we go again.. trying and trying to make a 160HP/160ft/lbs of torque engine somehow with some magic out perform a V6 with 200ft/lbs and 200HP. When you talk about the 5spd 4cyl CRV out performing the V6 Escape from 0-60 you need to mention you have to rev the HE.. out of it in order to get it to perform!
The 4cyl Escape is a joke. Get the V6 FWD Escape.. Ford/Mazda will offer a new 2.3 4cyl Escape/Trib in 2004/05 sometime.. It will have about 155HP and about the same amount of torque..
If Honda is so environmentally conscious why did they come out with the NSX? Pilot? and soon a full size truck??
Here we go again.. trying and trying to make a 160HP/160ft/lbs of torque engine somehow with some magic out perform a V6 with 200ft/lbs and 200HP. When you talk about the 5spd 4cyl CRV out performing the V6 Escape from 0-60 you need to mention you have to rev the HE.. out of it in order to get it to perform!
No Problem.......You have to rev it....just as the V6 Escape is also revving to redline trying to keep up with the 5-speed Cr-V!!! And I'll still get better mileage! The good news is that with Hondas extensive racing background, where Honda's racing engine technology actually makes it into production cars, the CR-V is just as composed at 6000rpm as it is at 2000rpm. Also, peak torque comes in at 3600rpm and the engine is already pulling nicely by then. I know, load it up and we'll see the difference. Yes we will but, not nearly as much as it should!
The only performance advantage I stated the CR-V had over the Escape was 0-60 with a 5-speed equipped trans. Otherwise the Escape DOES hold and edge.
Reed
tidester, host
Gas mileage is also slightly better in the 4X2. I think Edmunds reports 2-3 MPG as the difference both ways.
Show me where he said he wasn't talking about the 4X2 with a 4 cylinder engine. (Talk about nerve.) I know that review has to hurt to read, heck, the guy says to buy a Focus wagon instead of an Escape. I figured I'd throw it out there again cause it makes me laugh.
I know the Escape only comes with a 4 and a 5 speed, that's why I didn't consider it.
BTW if you can find a scathing review like that of a Honda vehicle from a respected automotive publication, please, post a link.
please show me all these incentives Ford is offering on the Escape??
Employee discount + current incentives = Escape sales
Can anyone tell me how much an Escape costs after A plan and incentives? Seriously, I bet it's a heck of a deal. I get X plan and can get it at or below invoice! Try doing that with a CR-V.
Get it?
And, in case I forgot to mention it, fleet sales.
It goes 0-60 in 7 seconds!!!!!!!! Probably not an issue for Honda but it is a good argument for this board.
However, the 2.4L engine used in the TSX is built in Sayama (same as the CR-V), will bolt up to the same transmission, and fits into the engine compartment. FWIW, they also have a 5 speed auto in that same parts bin.
I doubt that Acura would allow the lowly CR-V to get the same engine as their latest sports sedan, but in the UK that same engine is tuned for 190 horsies. That would be a more realistic powerplant for a CR-V SE model. Along with a 5 speed tranny, it would be one quick little buggy.
200 HP at 6800 rpm. I wonder what the rpm level they launched from to get a 0-60 time of 7.3 seconds. It probably wasn't below 3000. Fine for a sports sedan, but not for an SUV. The 2.4 is more suited to a truck because the power comes in lower on the tach.
Scape, you can take it from here man.
Are they going to sell that thing in the States?
You might as well save yourself a lot of money by buying a loaded new Accord V6 and adding some larger wheels along with stiffer springs/shocks.
Or better yet, buy a loaded Mazda 6. C&D TV couldn't say enough good things about it this past weekend.
Points:
Beta vs VHS
Mac vs PC
Hydrogen vs Gasoline
Don't ever believe that just because something sells alot means its better, it just means its more in demand.
Bess, I disagree on your Escape/Explorer example. It would fit (like Varmint stated) if you were talking CRV vs Pilot, but the Element and CRV are based on the same powertrain and unibody. People shopping for a CRV can afford an Element (and RELATIVELY vice versa) You won't find many people shopping for an CR-V jumping up to a Pilot. Same with the Escape/Explorer.
You've made this comment several times in the past (about employee sales).
Although Ford does employ many people in the US, and I'll also assume that most Ford employees would lean towards owning a Ford, but as Ford has alot of vehicles to choose from, it is unlikely that all, or even a majority buy Escapes. Also, I doubt that Ford empolyees buy vehicles at a faster rate than the national average.
I've seen the torque curve for the TSX. It's only a few ft-lbs lower than the CR-V at 3,600 rpms (the CR-V's peak). I doubt anyone would be able to feel the difference. However, when you get into the higher rpms, look out.
My concern would be gas mileage. The TSX uses premium as a result of higher compression and the valve tweaking.
I have no idea where to find sales information as it pertains to A and S plan.
Plus, there are those fleet sales too.