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Steve, Host
link
Steve, Host
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/030211-1.htm
http://autos.yahoo.com/hot/suvs.html
Just kidding!
Barney
Where's the CR-V?
Notice that every single SUV on that list is a brand new model which did not exist until recently. Ford has not released a new model in nearly three years (Escape was launched in mid-to-late 2000). Hmmm, I wonder why people are so interested in them then?
OK, maybe the X5 isn't so new. However, it might fall under bmorisette's theory of hits from searches for the term "Recall".
Am I wrong?
Steve, Host
-Barney
You're not wrong about most of what you posted above. You just didn't get what I was saying I guess.
Brand new models are models that are in their first iteration. Not re-designed models which are mostly what you mentioned above.
The Explorer has been around forever and gone through a few re-designs. The Sport Trac went on sale earlier in 2000 (compared to the Escape) and is not really an SUV. The Expedition is in it's second generation.
The Aviator is new, but not a Ford. It's a Lincoln. The question asked where Ford was on that list.
tidester, host
Nice job!
(to review your ride, go to New/Used Cars and drill down to your car, then > Consumer Reviews > Write Your Own Review)
Steve, Host
I get what you're saying but, what does it say about a redesign if it doesn't generate enthusiasm? 80 vehicles listed on yahoo.com's hot vehicle lists. 5 are Ford products if you count the Volvo on the SUV page.
Could it be that a lot of people that buy a Ford don't consider anything but a Ford? Maybe they are swayed by other factors? Say, incentives or employment?
Of course, that is my contention and I'll admit that it is almost 100% speculation.
1/6/03
FACING EVER-STIFFER competition Honda doesn’t appear to have lost its commanding hold on the mini-ute segment. Even the noteworthy Ford Escape, which successfully challenged Honda’s top spot earlier, has fallen slightly behind the Japanese model in sales. At this writing, the CR-V’s year-to-date sales have outpaced last year’s performance by almost 30,000.
Link to the full text -
http://www.autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autowe- ek&cat_code=autofile&content_code=01463609&Search_Typ- e=STD&Search_ID=986291&record=1
But there are no re-designed SUV's on that list at all. This isn't specific to Ford.
"Now a Lincoln isn't a Ford."
I'm guessing that was supposed to be a question? No, a Lincoln is not part of the Ford brand. The Aviator shares a lot of structure with the Explorer, but it also sports many improvements.
If you want to play like that, where's Acura on that list?
Ask varmint about the Explorer. It's not exciting, but a whole lotta people love it because it does everything well instead of shining in some areas and stinking up the joint in others.
stinking up the joint
Good point. Jack of all trades, master of none. What more could you ask for? A Pilot?
Right, and neither does Lincoln. Pop quiz: Why are Honda SUV's on the list? (Hint: Brand spankin' new models from a respected (depending who you're talking to) car (key word) company who just started building "trucks" very recently.)
Popularity contests are better judged by sales anyway. Yes the CR-V was more popular than the Escape (but not the Escape and Tribute twins) last year. It was pretty close though.
"What more could you ask for? A Pilot?"
Not in a million years. I'd rather have it's very close cousin the Odyssey.
The Pilot loses out big time in the towing and off-roading categories when compared to it's competitors. It has better handling, but the big boys are catching up in a hurry. All that while maintaining their truck roots.
I do like the Pilot and I think Honda will do well with it, but I'm one who will want something closer to a real truck if I ever need to upsize from the mini SUV pack. Even then it would be hard to stray from a minivan. I just don't see the need for a car based mid-sized SUV, no matter who makes it. Say what you want about them (or I guess me in this case), but those vans are pretty darn useful when you boil it all down. Yes, the Odyssey would be my choice right now. Even with it's checkered past.
"Jack of all trades, master of none."
I can't even tell you how many times I've read something like that written about Ford vehicles. I guess some of Henry's vision is still alive.
Which ones?
I will post dealerships this weekend when the ads arrive that are offering 0% - 2.9% financing on Honda's.
Varmit, as much as you want to make excuses for these incentives Honda dealerships are offering, they are still offering them...
icvci, you need to scroll back to the post showing CRV sales down -21% and Escape sales up this is more up to date than the article you posted Scroll back to post #3249... Rumor has it that Mercury is going to start selling a version of the Escape/Trib very soon... along with a possible Lincoln version.... This should be gooooooood....
The market is horrible these days. If a dealer is in a very competitive location, and the other guys are offering 0%, what else is the dealer supposed to do?
MT and C&D write those lines a lot. I specifically recall it being said about the Taurus when it was last re-designed, the Explorer all throughout it's life, and the Ranger. MT even said it about the Escape in their Escape/CR-V/VUE comparo last Fall.
It's been written several times before that as well but I can't recall the models.
"If a dealer is in a very competitive location, and the other guys are offering 0%, what else is the dealer supposed to do?"
Remember, GM started this whole incentive war that is going on right now. The others were just following along to keep up.
I can tell you exactly when the incentives will stabilize again. It will be the moment my wife and I decide to trade the Civic in for something new.
Oh, and they'll start the incentive war up again a month after we've purchased.
Like I've said before. Please read.
I said Acura didn't have to be on the list because they are represented by Honda. Your retort is that Lincoln doesn't have to be on the list because they aren't represented by Ford????? What kind of fuzzy logic is that?
So basically, when isn't a Lincoln a Ford? When it supports your argument.
Okay.
Honda's on the list because people want their product period.
Pop quiz. Why isn't Ford on the list if they're the trusted truck afficianados building real trucks people really want?
Heck! They're not even on the truck list!
The Pilot doesn't want to be a trucky truck. See, that's where American automobile manufacturers are, once again, one big step behind. Most people who buy SUV's don't want trucks for what a truck can do. They want trucks for the power or feeling of safety a truck gives them.
The big3 will be caught with their pants around their ankles unless they start making cleaner trucks that handle better, are safer for everyone (before the government mandates it) and meet or beat the reliablity (real or percieved) of the imports.
Ford is taking a big step in the right direction with the development of an Escape Hybrid. Now we'll see how they execute it.
My cousin and her family took a road trip to FL from MI with their neighbors. Her neighbor just bought a Pilot and all she could do was rave about it. But, they will never buy one because my uncle is a retired GM employee who gets them a fantastic discount on GM products. That, and the fact that he'd be really mad if they bought anything but GM. INCENTIVES INCENTIVES INCENTIVES. The single biggest reason the Big3 can screw up everything and still stay on top.
It isn't part of the Ford brand. It is part of the Lincoln brand. Also, the Volvo XC90 was on the list last week.
You do realize that this is a ridiculous argument, right? That site means absolutely nothing. I could go in and click on the Escape a thousand times to put it on the list.
"The big3 will be caught with their pants around their ankles unless they start making cleaner trucks that handle better, are safer for everyone (before the government mandates it) and meet or beat the reliablity (real or percieved) of the imports."
Read Edmunds' review on the 2003 Expedition. Note the reference to it's "carlike" handling.
You don't need to build an SUV based on a car to make it handle like a car. GM has been proving that for a few years now. Ford took it one step further with the IRS.
The Pilot is and always will be a minivan with AWD and less passenger space. Most people are going to be blind to that fact because it looks like a truck, and that is why I believe it will sell.
I've driven a new Explorer. The only thing that says truck about it is it's size.
Oh, it may have more hits on Yahoo, but...
Jan 2003 sales:
Explorer - 24,422
Pilot - 6,750
"Most people who buy SUV's don't want trucks for what a truck can do. They want trucks for the power or feeling of safety a truck gives them."
This is all true. But, as I said above, people aren't going to notice that the Pilot they are shopping for is really a shortened Odyssey. If they did, it wouldn't sell so well because, all of a sudden, it isn't as manly any more. In fact, a Honda salesman once tried to tell me that it was built on a truck platform while we were in the showroom looking at Accord's. I asked him to show me which other Honda truck it shared a platform with. He now knows what it is, but I doubt he is telling the customers.
If you don't believe me, go out and ask 10 strangers if they know what shared platforms the CR-V and Pilot are built on. You'll be lucky if you find more than one person who knows.
Yep. Silly argument.
Sales numbers? Incentives.
Without the incentives the ratio probably goes down to 3.5 Explorers sold for every 1 Pilot sold.
"They make stuff up to sell the vehicle instead of taking a day or two to actually learn."
A day or two? All I ask is that they pick up the vehicle brochure's so they can see what kind of engine is in the vehicle instead of picking their noses all day instead. One Ford salesman sat right next to me during our test drive and told me that the Escape had the same engine as the Explorer.
Yes, my wife is embarrassed to go car shopping with me.
Anyway......
That's hilarious.
My first test drive was a 91 Dodge Stealth R/T. The salesman opened the hood and pointed out the washer-fluid resevoir and made sure I noted that there was a seperate one for the rear window. Ummmm who cares? He didn't want to let me drive it (don't know why and seeing as it was my first time buying, I didn't question it) but, he couldn't drive a manual so, after one block of smelling the clutch burn I asked him if I could drive.
Sub-marinor?
Honda can only dream to sell as many Pilots as Explorers. Its obvious that folks here are not aware of the vast improvements to the Explorer suspension. I know this is not an Explorer vs Pilot room.... The Explorer is still ontop of the sales charts even after all the bad publicity.. Face it the Ford Explorer is a great vehicle, if it was so terrible why is it still ontop???? Escpecially with all the other choices in the market now.
icvi.. ever thought that maybe the Big3 offer what people like? or that maybe, just maybe people that have bought a chevy or Ford or Dodge have had reliable vehicles and enjoyed them??
Sorry if this link has been posted before - but I was seriously considering the Mazda Tribute / Ford Escape over the CR-V but then I saw this photo. I pretty much made up my mind right there to pick the CR-V as the car my family will ride in.
Thanks,
Barney
Scape, even though you love to compare the Pilot to the Explorer, they are both very different vehicles. One is based on a people mover for comfort and room and refinement and the other is more utility. It all depends on your personal needs......something you need to understand better for your arguments. Not very many people here want to tow more than a basic trailer to their local hardware store on the week-ends let alone a boat like you. Safety also seems a major issue from a couple of posts ago as well as reliability that you say Honda does not have! I still find that ironic considering I am on my 9th Honda and my wife just buying a new V6 Accord (due in Spring) 6 speed after owning another for 256000km's with no problems!We even got 15000$ CDN for it from the dealer ( so much for resale!)
I need more proof that your comments have some merit to them after many personal experiences that have proven you wrong. I am not saying Ford is no good but the reputation it has does not come from word of mouth alone. People are smart these days with their money considering vehicles cost as much as a house used to 10 years ago! Take away the incentives completely and watch what will happen. The big three realize that and that is why they are dwelling on them.
I contend that it stays on top due to fleet sales, and incentives. Did you miss those posts?
I'm sure there are people that have had great experiences with vehicles from the Big3. There are also those that won't even consider anything but an American vehicle no matter how often they get a lemon.
With my criteria in mind, the Explorer is a good vehicle. Not great. Jack of all trades, master of none. Then again, I wouldn't put any full sized SUV in the great category.
Hey scape, are you working any of the employee or family plans?
A. It's a good truck.
B. It's got a huge dealership network.
C. It has icon status due to the way it stormed onto the scene in 1991.
D. Incentives and fleet sales.
Some of those factors are tangibles. Like the fact that it's a good truck. Others are less tangible. Like it's icon status with Americans. Make the Explorer play an away game (say... Canada) and some of the intangibles are removed. The fact that it's a good truck still earns it top-dog status, but the margin is nothing like what we see here in the USA.
Similar things can be said about the CR-V and Escape. I'm certain that sales of the CR-V were initially boosted simply because the original model was the icon for the class. Just like Escape sales are boosted by the number of dealerships. Both benefit from intangibles that have little to do with how well the vehicle meets market demands.
Baggs - This is a topic for another thread, but, trust me, the Pilot is more of an SUV than the platform suggests.
It still only tows 3500 lbs which is mostly what I was going by. I just didn't want to bring up the topic of towing again.
I honestly have not researched the Pilot too much because I just know I'll never buy one. It's lack of towing ability says enough about it for me, but not because I need it. The Odyssey tows 3500 lbs and it is better suited for what demog the Pilot is aimed at. Just as a station wagon is better suited for most people who buy CR-V's and Escape's.
Max towing:
Explorer - 7300 lbs
Pilot - 3500 lbs (from Edmunds' review of the Pilot, 4500 from their specs sheet)
This one's for you:
http://www.nascar.com/2003/news/headlines/ct/02/12/toyota_reax/in- dex.html
First AWD isn't available on the Jetta. And there are serious quality issues too.
The Matrix and Outback didn't get much better mileage than the CR-V and they were nowhere near as versatile. They weren't rated as safe either.
I have 2 dalmatians and, If I want to haul them, a kid, luggage, and my wife to Northern Michigan for the weekend, a wagon just won't cut it. The Outback may have worked, and I looked in to the Forester (more of a wagon) but, when push came to shove, it was the V hands down.
Insurance on the V was cheapest of the bunch.
I really had my heart set on a wagon (I HATE SUVs for to enviornmental reasons) but, the wagons just didn't make sense. When we have another kid we'd be cursing the wagon wishing for a V.
I am a Formula 1 guy and even though I love Honda products, they are not doing very well here. Toyota is already passing them and Ford is years ahead. So you see, I am not as one - sided as some may think I am. If you want amazing, think Ferrari!
When I write here it is only about the subject at hand. I truely belive that the CRV is a much better vehicle than the Escape/Tribute based on my experiences, rental fleet and over all company reputation. What I don't like is when the discussion becomes only based on a towing issue or V6 comparison. Power and pulling are one thing but people (at least 90%) could not give a diddly doo-doo about that! There are many vehicles that out power or out pull the CRV easily and it still sold more than 30000 copies than the Escape last year. That must mean something!!
The mini-utes are just great family hauling cars that will get you to the ski slopes and camping grounds. They are not 4 ton boat haulers or mountain climbers. The old basic family wagon could not do that.
Do you mean the Pilot? If so, yes... several times.
Baggs - I agree that the Pilot is not a great towing vehicle, but towing alone does not make an SUV. Also, you are comparing minimum numbers for the Pilot with maximum numbers for the Explorer. Many people do not know this, but towing ratings are not standardized. This is how min/max problems come into being.
To start with... The Pilot's 3,500 lbs capacity is it's base tow rating. With more aerodynamic trailers (like boats), the capacity is 4,500 lbs. Both numbers include assume that the rig is loaded with four people and their gear for a weekend. Honda is the only company which I've seen publish measures this way. The more weight you add to the interior, the closer you get to maxxing out the rear axle limits.
To be honest, a quick search did not reveal exactly how Ford makes this measure. I've been told that the Big 2.5 all measure with only the driver, but Buick does list one driver and one passenger.
Which brings us to the Explorer's limits (seen here). The 7,300 lbs number only applies to the V8 models with the 3.73 LS axle ratio. Most other models are pretty close to the Pilot's rating. If we find that Ford uses only a driver for their ratings, we could make a case for saying that the Pilot actually tows more than most Explorer models.
Wanna talk about platforms?
How about wheelbase, approach/departure/breakover angles, suspension travel, ground clearance, etc?... E-mail me.
Frankly, I agree that the Pilot is not a true SUV. But it's not the mini-van that many people make it out to be.
I was rather impressed with its 4x4 capabilities for a car based SUV!