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Did you mean Challenger?
tidester, host
I enjoy this banter. I would never say you don't care about your family or their safety. I'd imply it and make you annoyed that I'd suggest such a thing but, I'd never say it and mean it. Sorry.
I know about the 3 and the 6. The 6 will be more than I want to spend (just bought the CR-V). And the 3...well, I don't know yet.
I am rather disappointed in the MPG ratings on the P5 though. The Mazda6 with a manual gets 25/32 and the 5 gets 25/31. What the heck is that all about???
Ya know what I really like about the P5? I get S-Plan, plus they're offering 0% and I get money back from my employer for buying a Mazda! Ahhh yes, the incentive argument rears it's ugly head.
Have a great weekend.
The space shuttle columbia exploded coming in for a landing above Dallas. It was about 15 miles high when it broke into pieces as it exploded.
tidester, host
Maybe the government overseers should not only think twice, but three times before cutting funding for safety-related projects like the now-axed X38 Crew Return Vehicle. Although I am guessing that at the rate things probably failed on that fatal re-entry, there would have been no time for the astronauts to even attempt an escape in the CRV. . . . (are we back on topic yet?)
Yes it was. I was going off of memory because I had noticed, from a quick glance, from a headline the other day that the Challenger anniverary was upon us. I don't really know why I typed Columbia, but I am still waiting for the knock on my door.
I'm actually a little freaked out by the whole thing.
"Don't refer me to those pictures you posted, those accidents are not as severe as the ones from IIHS or NHTSA tests."
Baggs replied:
How do you figure. They all happened at about the same speed for all we know.
Baggs, Speed is not the only factor (you may have typed so many times too, but let me do it once more ;-) in an accident. Other factores here are what they hit, how they hit, and in what condition they hit.
My point is, when comparing these accidents, what I care most is when the damage is in its extreme how a vehicle can hold up. In those pictures from
IIHS or NHTSA you can see the engine compartment and the front wheels are totalled, but the ones you posted you can see the tires are still good and the engn compartment is still identifiable.
So, let me say this again, Escape is not a death trap and is pretty safe in any standard, but from these data we have, CRV does seem to be a bit better, in "most" (as opposed to "all") situations.
You can try to convince me otherwise, with evidence. And I enjoyed being educated for things I would've otherwise believed wrong.
I might have been replying based on what was said the last time safety and the IIHS scores were brought up around here.
You make a good point about what the IIHS test might really stand for though. I think it says somewhere on the IIHS's site that they conduct that test based on the belief that it represents the majority of accidents that occur in the U.S.. I found it very hard to believe that most accidents involve a single vehicle hitting a stationary object (which gives a little on impact).
As you stated above, a lot of factors determine the severity of an accident so we have to ask what purpose do these IIHS tests serve? Well, they show us what can happen when the vehicle's structure is pushed to the limit in a specific situation. It's one way to compare the safety measures a manufacturer built into the vehicle, but still not the only way.
Besides, doing the same to the other side of the front of the vehicle may yield different results. But then we get into the whole expense thing again.
Their tests are done in a manner that replicates vehicle to vehicle crashes. Not vehicle to stationary object crashes.
"In the Institute's 40 mph offset test, 40 percent of the total width of each vehicle strikes a barrier on the driver side. The barrier's deformable face is made of aluminum honeycomb, which makes the forces in the test similar to those involved in a frontal offset crash between two vehicles of the same weight, each going just less than 40 mph. Test results can be compared only among vehicles of similar weight. Like full-width crash test results, the results of offset tests cannot be used to compare vehicle performance across weight classes"
Taken from the IIHS website
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/2002fordescapexls/
'CRV does seem to be a bit better, in "most" (as opposed to "all") situations'
I do not agree with your usage of the word 'most'.
In the NHTSA comparison, the CRV did better by 1 star in 1 category of of 5. I don't see this as CRV doing better than Escape in 'most' situations.
So, the tests do not say that the CRV does better in 'most' situations.
OK, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my last post. I have read the whole spiel from the IIHS several times and I know that they are trying to simulate a vehicle to vehicle crash. The thing is, as stated by more than one of us, none of the other elements of a crash are present in their test. Things like the driver turning the wheel to get out of the way, or brakes being applied. The list goes on.
Their test is more like a moving vehicle hitting a parked vehicle, where the other end of the parked vehicle is pointed at a solid wall, than two vehicles in motion colliding.
You can also search this board for our previous discussion on that Automobile mag article if you want. I don't recall it being all that exciting though.
bess,
Someone pointed out the actual scores of the CR-V and Escape in the NHTSA tests again. The CR-V did a little better when you look at it that way.
The fact of the matter is that the NHTSA deemed their scores close enough together to receive the same rating. No one else but us will ever know that there is a slight difference because the sales people don't show them to their customers. All the average customer ever sees is the list of stars.
I think that's why the word "most" is being thrown around.
That is what I would expect, based on the data we have. However, as Baggs has pointed out, we do not have data for every type of crash. So, there's no proof. We can only estimate from what we know about three types of crash.
For what it's worth, the CR-V's test results have been duplicated in the Euro NCAP tests. They have different ratings (they don't use stars or fair/marginal/good rankings), but it scored very high in their impact tests. It lost a few points for not having stickers warning about the use of certain car seats, but the crash data was favorable. They also test vehicles for crash compatibility with pedestrians. The CR-V scored very high (the highest, I think) on that test. Last time I checked, they did not have data for the Escape. In fact, I dunno if Ford sells the Escape over there.
I agree that comparing the exact impact measures from the NHTSA site is going overboard. The differences are not likley to prove significant. The height and weight of the occupant might alter the more significantly than those variations.
I believe the Escape is sold as the Maverick over in Europe and the Far East. You might want to check that model, but I don't know how much different it is compared to the U.S. version. I do know that the Maverick is a lot more upscale in those parts of the world though.
Honda:
http://hondanews.com/forms/corp/sales/03jan.html
Ford:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=14276
I was just reading about how they conduct the tests and there are more differences than I remember.
Http://www.ford.com.uk
for Ford Au try here...
Http://www.Ford.com.au
(I myself would love to get my hands on the Ford Falcon they got in Austrailia)
Odie
YUCK!
I'd rather have an SVT Contour. Still can't figure out why Ford abandoned that car.
Contour sales were sluggish here in the U.S..
I too wish they still made something a little sporty that falls in between the Focus and Taurus. Even if it is another watered down version of the Euro spec Modeo to keep the price low.
However, the next SVT Focus is going to have a blower in the engine bay. I forget the exact HP rating, but it was over 200. I think it comes out later this year as a 2004.
Yes Steve my e-mail is correct.
I owned a Contour SE V6 5spd and it was an absolute blast to drive. I'm telling you this car handled like it was on rails. 16" wheels, sport tuned suspension, traction control, sunroof.. this car was very nice.. except.. for the 6 recall notices... Never had any problems with the car, just didn't feel warm and fuzzy about it and the 6 recalls.. The Mondeo, in Europe sells very well. The ST220 version does very well in Europe. Ford should have brought the Euro version to the U.S. and I'm sure it would have done much better. But, once again Ford fails to see what Americans Truely want in a 4 door sedan and continue to give us the Taurus and the Sable...Sigh.....
Was there an Escape breakout in the pdf part of that link too? - I didn't explore that link too carefully either :-).
Steve, Host
Honda posts an image of their sales sheet and it is hard to read.
Considering how high tech their engines are you'd think they could produce a better web page.
It can't be the Pilot that is cannabilizing CR-V sales because they didn't sell many of them either. I think diploid may have hit the nail on the head in that it is probably the Element. The Pilot is in a different league and price bracket from the CR-V and Element.
And I didn't think the Element sales were very much either - would help if I could read that chart :-)
Anyone chase down the Escape numbers yet? I would, but I'm off to the ski hill!
Steve, Host
If Ford doesn't develop a compact to mid-sized four door sedan with some get-up-and-go Honda and Toyota will. And it will kick butt. Something less than the RSX but more than a Civic.
A lemon is a lemon, even if the manufacturer can manage to sell a million units.
The 0.424 is base on
1 mile/us gallon
= 1.61km/3.8litres
=~ 0.424 km/litre
Yes, the CR-V bested the Escape for the year. Oh, wait... That's not what you meant, is it...
Steve - I just got back from a ski trip. We had great conditions over here in the North East (brought home a cold, though). Have fun!
The 21% vs last year is a little misleading. January of last year was the first (or maybe second) full month of CR-V sales. There was quite a bit of pent up demand with people waiting for the new model. That inflated the 1/02 sales numbers a bit.
We'll have to wait and see if the Element cannibalizes sales from the CR-V. The E sold about 3,700 units in January. That's on par with the MDX for the same month. It's not far from the average sales of the Forester, Tribute, Wrangler, and a few other small utes. Obviously, that is going to have some impact on CR-V sales. The two sit on the same showroom floor!
Regardless, I don't think that the CR-V needs to outsell the Escape to prove how well it's been received. With about half as many dealerships as Ford, Honda has a significantly smaller outlet for sales. The old MacDonalds vs Burger Bobs analogy comes to mind. Or use David and Goliath if that suits your mood.
Honda keeps 6 months of sales (web pages) active on their site. Since August 1st 2002 they have sold an average of 11,475 CR-V's per month. This January was only a little off that mark. I think it should have been closer to what they sold in December 2002.
Whatever, I'm not going to defend sales. It all works out in the end. IMO January is hardly an indicator of the year to come.
Did Ford announce some kind of incentives for the Escape in December that carried over to January? Hmmmm...maybe incentives DO factor in after all.
I wore myself out yesterday Varmint and cooled my heels in the lodge the last hour today waiting on my ski buddy. But I'm finally linking some turns on my snowboard (about time - I've been 16 times this winter now!). Sure could use some new snow though.
Guess I'm a slow learner, and Diploid, Rlei and the rest of you guys will have to look to Tidester for the math help since that stuff never sunk in either.
Steve, Host
tidester, host
I'm not trying to imply that the twins stole anything from the CR-V either.
"Typically, sales within a month or two of the new year are quite sluggish."
I thought December is usually one of the strongest months of the year?
I'm not sure about December.
Cendant owns Budget & Avis. ANC Rental Corp owns Alamo and National. DTG owns Dollar & Thrifty. Who knows what kind of relationships these big holding companies have with the various auto makers. (source google; usual disclaimers).
Honda has never been known for fleet sales to car rental companies but that could change.
Steve, Host
As for fleet sales, yes, some Escapes do go to rental companies. I've seen them at Budget locations as well as Hertz. However, I've never seen anything that gives a solid number for Escape fleet sales. That makes it hard to compare.
Honda sells to rental car agencies in other countries as well. I know Canada is one, but I don't know if they do it at all in the U.S.. I've never seen one, but people on other Edmunds boards claim to have rented Honda's and Toyota's here in the U.S..
A lot of that has to do with production numbers too. They only sell about 150,000 - 200,000 Escape's/Tribute's each year but I believe they do produce 250,000. Honda sells just as many but only produces what they can sell here. They do produce more for other countries from what I recall of our last visit with this topic.
Would you rather they cut back production so you can't rent vehicles any more? Someone's got to sell to the rental firms, right?
Why is it when sales numbers favor Ford the fleet sales issue comes into play? You have to wonder what percentage of sales go to fleet? Sales mean $$$ made. Escpecially of the Escape? I would be willing to bet less than 5% of total Escape sales are fleet sales. I don't know where some of you live but you can rent Accords, Civics and even a CRV in my area no problem. Granted they are not from Hertz or National but from other small rental firms. Toyota's can also be rented..
In my opinion I would take a CRV over an Element.. I feel this is just a passing fad type vehicle.
Incentives for the Escape for my zip is 4.9% for 60 months (and there's some cash back options).
Rent-A-Wreck probably has one of everything available - just have to find the right franchise.
Steve, Host
"Once again, if you don't believe me give me your e-mail address and I will provide phone numbers to the dealers..."
scape, why don't you just use Edmunds and show us?
Yeah scape......I bet Honda is really worried!
The fleet sales are always a factor. There's just no reason to rub your nose in it when sales are reversed.
"You have to wonder what percentage of sales go to fleet?... I would be willing to bet less than 5% of total Escape sales are fleet sales."
We dunno. This is all speculation. That's why I rarely mention fleet sales. And I'm sure you're correct with regard to the percentage of Escape sold to fleets. However, since the Accord is the most common rental in the Honda lineup, and it sells less than 1% in fleet sales, that would make any CR-V's sold to fleets pretty insignificant.
"Sales mean $$$ made."
Actually, that isn't always true. If a company is losing money on a particular model, more sales will mean bigger losses. As we've discussed in the past, Ford was averaging a negative intake for their NA operations.
Looks like all the initial bad press is behind the Escape/Tribute. As I have said over and over again. Get out on the net, visit other chat rooms, there are thousands of satisfied/happy Escape/Tribute owners out here! Honda offers special financing also, just like Ford. Ford offers rebates but rarely do you see you can use both your rebate AND the special financing.