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I'm sorry I missed the part where Honda ever said anything about people thinking their cars are great. Actually, I don't remember Honda every saying anything about the quality of their vehicles either. It seems like those are ideas and opinions widely circulated by the press and the public, not Honda.
Steve, Host
It doesn't seem so any more.
The church of Honda has set up camp.
"But they are."
Thank you for proving me right. I feel like I'm talking to a wall.
"Honda has not gotten to be such a successful car company by doing dumb things."
I know they're successful and they do some really great things. I'm not the enemy here. They have made some pretty bad mistakes in the past though. You do realize that don't you?
"p.s. I don't own a Honda, so I'm not subject to their "brain-washing gas" via HVAC. Maybe you've inhaled too many Ford fumes."
I see you own a Toyota. That might be worse!
That Honda "truck" isn't going to sell well either. I'll put my money on one of its competitors.
By the way, I don't gamble.
"I'm sorry I missed the part where Honda ever said anything about people thinking their cars are great. Actually, I don't remember Honda every saying anything about the quality of their vehicles either."
Have you seen their latest commercials? One of them is for the Civic. You know the one. Two girls riding along in their EX talking about something really lame as the Honda spokesman tells us how you can do things like that when you don't have to think about the car.
Back in reality land... the Civic is one of Honda's most problematic cars and it's been losing contests to the older Focus for years now. It must be the equivalent of the Devil in the church of Honda! :0)
Baggs...........the Civic is what??????????
Focus being better!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whoa!
Do I have to bring up those posts on reliability again???????? I have owned three and drove the $%^%it out of them.
Prove to me where the Focus is out doing the Civic!
If anything, it just proves how obstinate you are. Just stop while you're ahead, baggs. You've lost this one.
Maybe I did, but I wasn't trying to win anything. Were you?
I'm just throwing opinions out there in case one of you might be willing to open up and have a real discussion without quoting what other people have written in an article. Articles that prove nothing when you are looking at the whole picture.
"Prove to me where the Focus is out doing the Civic!"
Didn't we do this already? Go to C&D's web site. The Focus has again been named to their 10 best list. Most other publications rank it above the Civic too.
I never said that the Focus' reliability was better. You Honda folk have your Bible (CR) to tell you that. I said that the Civic is losing these comparison battles to a car that has been ridiculed for it's high recall count.
If you like the Civic better then the Focus obviously isn't out doing it in your opinion. How am I supposed to prove it to you if your mind is already set?
I'm a Honda guy and CR isn't my bible. I'd prefer JD Power or Intellichoice. What is Ford's bible? The NTHSA recall log?
Anyway. I figured I'd give the Ford guys some fuel. The HVAC fan on my wife's CR-V is cutting in and out intermittenly and I have to take it in. It sucks when it's 10 degrees out and the heat keeps turning off.
Who's my messiah now?!?!?! (Ten Commandments reference.)
Have a nice weekend you brand blinded bozos (me included).
We were having a real discussion. You implied that the FWD truck that Honda might produce will be one that they regret because if it's a sales flop, they'd have a backlog at the plants. I pointed out that Honda had the most flexible assembly plant in the auto industry, so even if it's a sales flop, they could use the plant to build other models that are in demand.
That's where you started going off about how Ford has flexible plants as well - making it your focal point when I never said that Ford didn't have one - even my links stated that Honda wasn't the only manufacturer with those types of assembly plants - they were merely the fastest in the industry because they invested in those flexible systems earlier than everyone else.
Those articles were used to complement the debate at hand - as for looking at the whole picture (and how useless those links are, according to you) - you must've been arguing with yourself then; I didn't think we were discussing anything else besides the flexible assembly lines.
I don't know if you were trying to win, but you certainly weren't too civil about it ("Thank you for proving me right. I feel like I'm talking to a wall").
Just responding to some comments of your's I felt were uncivil too.
"You implied that the FWD truck that Honda might produce will be one that they regret because if it's a sales flop, they'd have a backlog at the plants."
Backlog has nothing to do with it. The information you provided about Honda's flexible plants shows that.
You might also remember that once I found out what their real plans are for it I changed my tune a little (I posted a link). It doesn't look like it will be a pickup truck at all. It will be more like a Subaru Baja which is a much better idea. I still don't think it will sell well while Ford and DC release their crossovers though.
"The Focus is a great car when it's not in the shop."
Therein lies the problem. Maybe the next gen Focus will be better because it really is a great car.
"What is Ford's Bible?"
Right now it seems to be automobile history books.
That will change too.
"The HVAC fan on my wife's CR-V is cutting in and out intermittenly and I have to take it in."
Loose fuse or wire maybe? Hopefully it doesn't involve removing the dash. Anyway, good luck with that.
I'd tell you to check the TSB lists but Honda seems to be at it again with the hiding information thing.
No, I am not aware of this.
Not looking to flame, but I'd like some more info on this. Thanks.
-ss4
It is ironic that all of your Focus's and Neons Sunfires....whatever were all conceived around the notion that tjhe Civic was the prodigy and none of you can admit that! HHHHmmmmmmmmmm
The Civic can't touch it. "Something new from Honda - a loser."
BTW, where are all those quotes from the websites and magazines. Where did they go?
As long as they prove your point, you tend to take them as the ultimate truth and use in almost every post.
And when they don't, you reserve to your "personal experience". So much for the personal experience, BTW.
I'd love to refer y'all to a "foreign vs domestic" discussion but they always get shut down because they tend to degenerate into a flame war immediately. I'm beginning to understand why.
But maybe the Increasing Globalization....does 'country of origin' matter? discussion will be of interest.
Steve, Host
http://www.alldata.com/recalls/index.html
Odie
Not looking to flame, but I'd like some more info on this. Thanks."
I'm at home on the old modem right now so I'm not going to provide links.
The Odyssey had many problems when it first came out even though you probably didn't hear about them.
They recalled a bunch of models last year for some throttle cable problem which caused, yes you guessed it, stalling (or fires of some sort). I believe all CR-V's up to the 2000 MY were in this one.
The Passport. Need I say more.
The current transmission extended warranty instead of recalling them thing.
The Prelude was a nice car. It was too bland to compete with the big boys though.
One thing that really annoys me about our Civic is that it still uses a timing belt. I'll have to replace the stupid thing pretty soon or the engine will supposedly be destroyed and I don't imagine it will be cheap. I hear they finally switched to chains.
I'm sure there are more and you are going to push all of these off to the side like they are nothing, but the cable and tranny things included the Accord. That is no small problem.
I have owned my 200 Civic SE (a Canadian model, it's basically LX plus a few more options) for over 3 years, it has now 63000 km (~40k miles) and everything is original (including braking pads) and if anything is different from day one, it's only that it got a bit quieter over these years. I only do regular oil changes and ditched the dealer after 42K Km maintenance.I am not bragging about the reliability (I expect any new car to do the same from any brand), I had similiar experience with a Ford Escort but got rid of that one after three years.
Anyway, that comment (Civic being problematic) probably confirms that buying a CRV or Element won't be too wrong if these cars are better than my Civic. But I won't just believe what I read, I will keep comparing ...
I don't think every Honda is perfect, won't believe every Ford is garbage either. But just comparing reliability, I do believe overall Honda wins this battle, but Ford (or GM, Dodge...) normally has lower prices so you pay what you get. Fair and square. Don't tell me Honda's CR is doing a better job, it's not like "the domestic" never tried.
Your 2000 car - the last production year before the model change is supposed to be bulletproof, as was the "inferior" Ford Escort near the end of its production cycle.
And just to stay on topic, I would like to mention an observation I made during the visit to the local autoshow.
The Element was definately a crowd magnet.
The majority of the comments were positive. But not too much of enthusiasm or willingness to run to the dealership and buy.
In fact several people actually said that they were planning on buying the thing but after seeing the Element in person, they're no longer sure if they really wanna do that.
In contrast to another showstopper - the Nissan Murano.
Just by looking at the people's faces you could tell what there were thinking about that model: this is the must have car.
I have to admit I have taken a bath on my Escape resale value.. paid 21,800 now worth about 17.5K private party, 19K from a dealer.. after 1.5 years! New ones optioned the same as mine can be had for 20K.. Limited Escapes can be had for about 22K now.. loaded...
I also said I would readily admit if I had a problem with my Escape. Went up skiing yesterday and did a bit of offroading. Pushed some serious snow with the little bugger... I now have a rattling sound coming from my front drivers side area. I have gotten underneath to see if I could find anything loose but no go.. Runs and drives ok, no warning lights.. guess I will be taking it in next week sometime.. I will keep you updated and see what they find...
Drive it forever (i.e. ten years) and depreciation won't matter. Did you check for ice chunks under there? Or a Coke can under your seat?
Steve, Host
Plus I'm probally going to be keeping the escape for some time, so it won't worry about resale.
Odie
If I were you, I would trade it now because of that rattle.....I am sure that you are in for a lot of those!
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=aufofile&loc_code=index&content_code=01463609
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/03images/det2_avenger_2.jpg
the 2004 Dodge Avenger kind of reminds me alot of the old AMC Eagle.
Odie
Once again a typical Honda clone statement from you " If I were you I would trade it in now, more rattles to come"... Nope, don't plan on trading it in.. Enjoy my Escape. I Enjoy parking next to ugly CRV's..
0-60 times again... been through this.. Glad you mention it was a 5spd.. and once again fail to mention in order to achieve these 0-60 times you have to rev the hell out of the CRV!!...
No it's not. It's #1 only in the UK...and the Civic is #1 in the U.S and Canada, so there goes that argument. The Toyota Corolla is the best selling car in the world.
baggs - "Backlog has nothing to do with it. The information you provided about Honda's flexible plants shows that."
I know - that was my intention. You stated "I can't believe Honda, since all of you think they're so smart, would go through all the trouble of re-tooling a plant to build a vehicle that won't sell very well at all." Their assembly lines are flexible enough to accomodate all their platforms, whether it's a car or a truck - it would be very little trouble to re-tool for the new truck, and likewise, re-tool to another car that's more in demand should this truck not sell well.
The Toyota Corolla is the best selling car in the world counting all production years.
Humor us with an Escape or CR-V reference now and then :-)
Steve, Host
I think I have looked at a CRV hard enough, love almost everything about it and every article I read says it's a great car, now, I think only people here can help me are the Escape owners/fans, can someone tell me what you think your Escape can do and a CRV can't do it as well? What I care about my next car are (in the order of importance), BTW, I am not buying the whole company so I don't care which brand is better, only these two models.
1. Space (enough for 2 babies, a wife, and me).
2. Reliability (Plan to use it, not to be used)
3. Fuel Efficiency (I can't stand a gas sucker)
4. Sunroof & nice stereo. (I have to get them.)
5. Seating comfort.
6. Great if I can tow a 1500 lb fishing boat, but not necessary.
What I don't care too much (too some extent)
1. Offroad ability (why would I spend 35K+ Canadian dollars for a toy? reliability is the 1st thing I look for in a vehicle, offroading kills a car doesn't matter what brand it is)
2. Power & handling (this is nice but I haven't found anything I have driven that is under my standard)
3. Looks (see why I considered an element? LOL)
4. Resale value (will keep it as long as it doesn't give me too much trouble)
Okay, give me some feedback, thanks!
Right, but no. I don't want a minivan yet. ;-(
40 hp difference should not beat an Escape manual or not my friend! That is the second posting mentioning how it beat the Escape hhhmmmmmmmm! Very efficient for a 4cyl and you can't admit it. UGLY!!!! look at your lovely body cladding!!LOL! Now ain't that pretty!
"It's still the "minivan of SUVs." It's practical above all. It's the descendant of the old four-wheel-drive Civic wagon. It's a good SUV for someone who really, in his heart, doesn't want an SUV. It's an SUV for someone who can't commit to a full-size, emission-spewing behemoth but still wants a vehicle to go cross-country skiing in."
Both are very good vehicles. In the end we were sold on the not-too-truck like features of the CR-V. It has more cargo and passanger volume than the Escape. Better fuel economy, and can do everything else you mentioned. The EX comes standard with a moonroof, 6 disc changer, cruise control, side air bags and keyless entry. We really liked the reclining rear seats and the fact the seats didn't have to be removed for maximum cargo space. The center pass-through feature was a big sell with a child on the way. Oh yeah, it is also one of the safest small trucks on the road.
I do have a problem with the HVAC fan (seems to be a loose connection) but, other than that the vehicle seems to be put together very well.
It's an SUV for people who don't want an SUV. Check out the Subaru Forester too. It's a really nice vehicle that fits all of your needs. Back seat was too small ofr us but, you may like it.
And then there is this -
"The all-new 2002 CR-V racked up honors at the Michelin Challenge Bibendum for "Best Exterior Design" and "Best Interior Design" in the Light Truck/Van/SUV category."
And all you can come up with is a pick-em win in Motor Trend where they call the Escape's styling "vanilla". What exactly is the Escape better at? Stopping distance and towing. Big win.
When is Lincoln Mercury going to pirate the Escabute? Or is it Triape? Whatever.
I'm curious as to the reasons people decided to buy the Escape. What other vehicles were considered and, did incentives play in to their decision. (I suppose anyone familiar with our debates wouldn't admit to being influenced by incentives.)
I would have gotten S-plan on the Escape but, wanted cleaner 4 cylinder engine with an auto. Auto and 4 are not an option.
I know you're looking for comments from Escape owners but here is one more from a V owner who extenisvly considered both:
1. Space (enough for 2 babies, a wife, and me).
My wife and I have a 15 and an 11 year old. Tons of space for them. We just returned from a 17 day 4000 mile vacation and heard no complaints about lack of space or comfort from them. Plenty of space behind the rear seat for all of our stuff.
2. Reliability (Plan to use it, not to be used)
I'm a first time Honda owner however, many family and friends have owned numerous Hondas and every last one of them we asked will buy another Honda primarily based on their years of trouble free ownership!!!!
3. Fuel Efficiency (I can't stand a gas sucker)
During break in I averaged about 22mpg in town and 21-24 on highway. After first oil change at 4550 miles (and a switch to Amsoil synthetic) my mileage went up to 22.5-24mpg in town and 22-28 highway. Driving 60-65 will yield 25-28 and 75-85 will yield 21-24 highway.
4. Sunroof & nice stereo. (I have to get them.)
Love the sunroof!!!! Stereo is good not great. 6 disc changer is very nice.
5. Seating comfort.
Again, after just spending 17 days and 4000 miles in the V we would all say excellent. Front seats are very supportive and easy to find a comfortable adjustment for many hours. Rear seats are great as well. Their ability to slide and recline make for some very happy comfortable kids during long road trips!
6. Great if I can tow a 1500 lb fishing boat, but not necessary.
Have not towed with the V but 1500lbs should be no problem. I towed a 1500lb twin jetski trailer for many years with an older Toyota PU with a smaller less powerful engine with no problem.
Good luck on you decision as both are good vehicles. We have no regrets about our decision!!
Reed
Detroit to San Diego to Ensenada to LA to Vegas to San Fran to Seattle to Cody Wyo. to The black Hills to Chicago to Detroit.
Where the HELL is Wall Drug?!?!?!
Wall Drug is South Dakota's answer to See Rock City.
Steve, Host
Reliablity.. go to www.alldata.com.. Honda hides information, TSB's... doesn't that make you wonder?? My friend who manages a Honda dealership.. I asked him for a list of repairs/TSB's on CRV's. .. his comment... "Against Honda policy".... Hmmmm.....
It does look like a mini-van would suit you better however..
I have BEEN there! If I try really hard I might even be able to dig up my bumper stickers. :-)
tidester, host
looks better......that's YOUR opinion.
handles better......such a small difference we never noticed it in three back to back test drives??
tows better.......true but neither is intended for any real towing duty.
stops faster.......the Escape comes with a more street oriented tire therefore it will stop better on the dry street.
costs less......Not at all what I found recently (Nov 02). An Escape equipped like a CR-V EX was always more expensive????
Try loading a CRv down with 4 adults and about 300lbs of gear. Now, find hills and see what the difference will be.......On our recent vacation our V was totally loaded. Two adults, two kids 11&15, four suitcases, four back packs, tons of other stuff. At least 250lbs worth of stuff. Drove through several mountain passes and communities. Did it slow it down? Not even close. Did I have to rev the hell out it? NO!!! It would downshift once and easily maintain speed.
Another thing is the Escape has better rear access.. no tire in the way.. or the tailgate........No access problems here:)
Escape also has 4x4 switch on the fly.. don't have to wait to get stuck for you 4wd to kick in.......been in 6" deep mud and snow and never been close to stuck. 4X4 capability between these two is even.
Reliablity.. go to www.alldata.com Honda hides information..........What??? That's illegal. Ford has had so many problems they couldn't hide them if they wanted to????????
Once again each of us seem to have ended up with the vehicle that has best met our needs.
Have Fun......Reed
Not by a long shot. Since it is winter and we've had about 10 days straight with snow and below 20 temps I think I'll add my two cents.
The 4X4 ON in the Escape is far superior to what the CR-V offers. When in sand or deep snow that one little option makes a big difference in how quickly you gain traction. Absolutely no slippage or loss of traction occurs when it is engaged which is not true of the auto systems.
Don't get me wrong, the auto systems are great for the other 95% of normal driving and will get you out of almost every jam. When that snow/ice gets deep, the 4X4 on the Escape is worth every penny.
"handles better......such a small difference we never noticed it in three back to back test drives??"
You have your small difference in 0-60 times, we have handling and braking. The Escape is faster in the 1/4 mile too. It seems the CR-V "loses its steam" a short time after it hits 60 mph.
"stops faster.......the Escape comes with a more street oriented tire therefore it will stop better on the dry street."
So those little pizza cutters on the CR-V are better off-road tires? The CR-V's tires are just as street oriented. There's just less of them in contact with the road.
"Try loading a CRv down with 4 adults and about 300lbs of gear. Now, find hills and see what the difference will be......."
In the 2002 Auto tranny model we tested this was true with only 3 adults on board.
"What??? That's illegal."
Yet they still do it somehow.
"Once again each of us seem to have ended up with the vehicle that has best met our needs."
I totally agree with you on this. I can't think of two SUV's that are closer in comparison than these two.
Maybe off-road. But in everyday driving they are neck-and-neck. In CR ratings the Escapes avoidance maneuver speed is 51.5 the CR-V is 48.5. So it handles better in the extremes.
Braking from 60mph -
Escape 135 feet
CR-V 130 feet
When was the last time you did this? I never have. Once again, in everyday driving, I'd say they are about equal.
0-60
Escape - 8.9
CR-V - 9.6
Wanna race? Me neither.
45-65 numbers that matters for passing -
Escape - 6
CRV 6.1
1/4 mile -
Escape - 16.8
CRV - 17.6
Not even a second. Big deal.
Get a clue, Honda's auto gets better mileage than it's manual tranny.
How about crash test ratings?
CRV 5 star all the way around
Escape get that info yourself
Pollutants?
EPA rates them on a scale of 0 to 10. 10 being the best.
Escape - 4
CRV - 8
TSB's? Go to http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm. They're all there for you to read. I contacted there offices and they said if there aren't any TSB's listed, then there aren't any TSB's.
Quality? Well, the world is out to get Ford (specifically anyone who checks quality), so I'll just go with real-life experiences and say good luck with your Ford.
I wonder who coined the phrases Found On Road Dead and Fix Or Repair Daily? Musta been a CR guy!
What was the 0-60 time of the refrigerator that same person tested the day before?
Seriously, find some test numbers from people who don't drive Camcords to and from work.
"When was the last time you did this? I never have."
Test numbers vary, but I've never seen the Escape take more than ~130 ft to stop from 60 mph. In fact, I think it was 122 in one article that was posted before. Usually it stops somewhere in the range of 122-128 ft. from 60 mph.
Since you brought up safety, and we've been over this 1000 times before too, the fact that the Escape handles and stops better means it is capable of avoiding accidents better. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be able to stay out of the accident than to be a little safer when I'm in one. Also, the Escape earned 5 stars in all but one category where it earned 4.
So to answer your question above, I do not slam the brakes on from 60 mph too often either. I do like the fact that I know I have that little bit of extra braking power if/when I need it.
Emissions, the Escape is rated as an LEV vehicle and I believe the CR-V is one step above at ULEV. It's not as bad as those numbers you posted would suggest.
"Get a clue, Honda's auto gets better mileage than it's manual tranny."
Shouldn't it be the other way around?
A while back I calculated distance traveled on one tank of gas for these two vehicles. The CR-V could go, I think it was, 8 miles more on a tank of gas than the Escape. This was all based on the sticker MPG numbers. The Escape's larger tank allows it to stay close. I did this because I'm more concerned with how many times I have to stop (pee stops not included) during a long trip rather than miles per gallon. The CR-V offered no noticeable difference.
TSB's:
The NHTSA does list Honda's TSB's on their site. Most likely because Honda has to report all of that stuff to the government.
AllData is a pay site where you can view the entire text of a TSB. That is what Honda is really hiding. I for one like to see the entire text/procedure, if possible, so I know that the service rep did the right thing. Other than that, the full text is useless to me and the NHTSA's info, if nothing else, tells me that I'm not the only one with the problem and it can be fixed quickly.
Handling..........I put 16 inchers on my CRV and I will match and beat you anyday with those in breaking and lateral acceleration.
Sure you will beat my automatic 0-60 but if you didn't with an extra 40hp, I would be very concerned.
Towing...........I own 2 snowmobiles and no prob!
As for baggs 4x4 theory well I am sorry but I live in northern Quebec and most of you don't even know what snow, ice or cold is and I put 4 great winter tires on with no problem anywhere! The only advantage the Ford has is that you can lock it on.........NO MORE! However, that was an ingenious idea on their part.
The quality thing is so halarious! We are trying to be forced to believe that all of the years we have been hearing that Hondas are very reliable is all WRONG and UNTRUE from all of these Fordheads! I find that ironic! I will be hard pressed to make myself believe that after being towed twice in three days!!!!!!!! Honda is not perfect that is for sure BUT they are certainly better than the domestics in the sense that it does not take 4 years to fix a model only to change it all over again..........look at the Neon, Sunfire and even the Focus! They may sell like crazy but that does not make them better! Ask people and most of them who own these cars would rather sell them then keep them!
The only worthy 4X4 in the domestic field is the Liberty. I spent many weeks with one and was very impressed and would love to have one for the week-ends. My next rental is the new KIA and I think it will be positive!
I also agree about the TSB's.........As if Honda would hide everything just for the heck of it!!!!!LOL! People are not that dumb!