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From July 29th - "General Motors Corp. today unveiled a unique, new research facility that will expand its ability to develop fuel cell technology, which will help GM determine how to offer fuel cells on a large-scale basis in preparation for market-ready products."
From July 30th - "The fuel cell technology, showcased in GM's HydroGen3 fuel cell vehicle, brings GM another step closer to the commercialization of hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles."
From August 14th - "Driving closer to reinventing the automobile, General Motors Corp. today revealed a look at Hy-wire, the world's first drivable vehicle that combines a hydrogen fuel cell with by-wire technology...Larry Burns, GM's vice president of research and development and planning, said, "We are driving to have compelling and affordable fuel cell vehicles on the road by the end of the decade."
I think that's the key right there. The hybrids that Honda and Toyota sell right now are not compelling. They are underpowered versions of cars that were underpowered to begin with. I think this is a big reason why they hardly sell any at all. They are nice (especially the Civic hybrid), but not worth the extra cash.
Give us more power and we'll buy them. Even though it is going to have some Toyota engineering under the hood, the Escape hybrid is a step in the right direction. Only if they really get V6 performance out of it though.
Most of the honda dealers in my area, are advertising the accord, civic, even the new element, but no mention what so ever of the CRV
> industry average. They rate the CR-V at about 30%
> above the industry average. The difference between
> positive 30 and negative 40 is 70. Any questions?
Yeah, where did you learn math? You can't treat fractions like that....
Take 100 as your industry average (for example). That makes the Escape at 60 and the CR-V 130. Is the difference between 130 and 60 70-percent? Looks to be over 100% to me....
Maybe it would be best to back up and start with the original data.
Fractions? I think you mean "percentages". Would it help if I wrote, "The difference between positive 30 and negative 40 is 70 percentage points."
Here's your data.
Actually, 70% = 0.70 = 7/10 , so 70 percent is a fraction. But, you can have negative fractions, so your point does make sense.
However, typically when you do a comparison like you are doing you would use a percent difference approach.
As was pointed out, a percentage *is* a fraction (there is an implied /100, but I assume you know that).
> Would it help if I wrote, "The difference between
> positive 30 and negative 40 is 70 percentage
> points."
No, I understand your point. And yes, there is a 70 point difference. But I question how meaningful that is. Yes, the CR/V is high, the Escape is low, but I don't know that you can quantify the difference so simplisticly.
Thanks for posting the actual data, but I was hoping for actual raw numbers (from which the percentages were derived). Perhaps that is all CR has for data, percentages.
What year was this data collected?? Let me guess... 2001??
These stories of Honda's being sold before they even hit the lot happens with all car makes. It happened with the Beetle, Prowler, PT cruiser and even the new T-Bird. I drive by 2 Honda lots that are probably average in size. I see no "shortage" of CRV's, Pilots or any other Honda product. Advertisements galore in the paper also.
I have already told you my experience with "the legendary resale value of Honda vehicles"... The most a dealer would give me for my wifes 2000 Accord LX automatic was 11K!!?? and this was a friend. A dealeship that I did not know offered me just over 9,000??! I was also told.. "Accord LX's are everywhere and noone wants them"?? they want the EX's?? Your going to have a hard time convincing me about Honda resale value...
If you have a different interpretation, please enlighten us.
The CR-V is ranked high, the Escape is ranked low. Do you want to know how low? I'd suggest taking a look at the other vehicles listed in the data. That should give your imagination a baseline of sorts.
Scape also knows that CR's findings are consistent with other sources. Honda did not earn their reputation with slogans like, "Built Honda Tough", or, "Quality is Job One". Honda got that rep by building quality vehicles. This shows in the JD Powers surveys on long term reliability (by brand) and also the Initial Quality studies where the CR-V was ranked #2 behind only the RAV4. It is also consistent with the tales we read from owners of both vehicles.
Frankly, we don't need CR's data. It's merely the icing on the cake.
Doesn't look good for the CRv in my region. Honda dealers advertise these regularly. I was thumbing through the ads today. a Large "mega" dealer has 2 CRV EX's for $22,644. Same page has a Ford Escape XLT V6 for $21,488, 6 to choose from. Same dealership also offerning Escape V6 Premium for $22,988, leather, sunroof heated seats its got it all. And he has 8 to choose from. Lets see now, the XLT and EX are roughly optioned the same yet the Escape sells for $1200 less?? and for $300 more you can ge an Escape loaded with options that are not even available on the CRV? Not good....
I forget who, but someone here kept mentioning the Escape looks like the Jeep Cherokee.. I have yet to read a review on the CRV where it makes any sort of points for styling... Better be glad the cRV has reliablity going for it....
If things are looking so bad for the CR-V, why are they still selling so well? The fact that people are willing to pay more for a CR-V with fewer options, just tells you how much people value the basic vehicle. The Escape has a V6, extra content, a low price and Ford still has to offer incentives. Not good...
Once again I call bias. How can you call a new model year CRV reliable when it has no history?? Ok, October 2002, so when was the study concluded? written, published and sent to print? Sounds to me you are once again beating a dead horse with the initial recalls on the Escape/Trib..
Varmit, the only incentive on the Escape is 500 dollars last I looked. Not a deciding factor when your talking over 20,000 dollars for a vehicle. Financing.. the 0 percent for 60 months from Ford is not for the Escape. As far as special percentage.. Honda offers it also on the CRV you just need to ask.... You know as well as I do this changes the price of a vehicle. The dealer basically "buys down" the percentage rate.
Whenever we discuss them, you claim that the recalls did not affect many units. Yet, when we discuss reliability stats, you claim that the recalls have a significant impact on the numbers. You can't have it both ways. What's it going to be?
First of all buying a car for it's resale value is stupid to begin with. I don't care what my car is worth in ten years because I might still enjoy driving it. Honda has one of the highest resale values in it's class primarily because it doesn't offer rebates, period. Any Honda salesman will tell you that. OK, it's product is great (my wife owns a '91 Accord with over 160K on it). Why does it have that many miles??? Because I take care of it. I get it serviced, I don't rough it up, I wax it, etc... same with my other cars that last over 100K (foreign and domestic). Bottom line, take care of your car and it will take care of you.
Secondly, if you care about a resale value or if you are a true automotive enthusiast, lease your car. Trade that bad boy in every three years or so and get the newest one out. Don't build equity, improve your credit, don't bother upgrading your vehicle because it may void your lease. It's great to see what vehicles come out with every year as innovative as they are. I heard Nissan has stuff to put on cars that we can't afford right now. Ford is the first to put out a Hybrid SUV - hats off to Ford for taking the next step but some of you complain about that still.
All manufacturers make good cars. To each their own. Everyone has their own little sayings like: Friends don't let friends drive imports; If you drink and drive, drive a Chevy and dump it in a ditch, Kiss my bowtie a**; etc... This my car is better than your car crap is ridiculous.
Last comment for me is: Imports are great for cars and Domestic is the only way to go for trucks and SUVs.
I take that to mean you can order one, but not buy one off the lot at this time.
suvshopper.. don't understand what is going on in the East coast region. CRV's, Pilots, Oddyseey's abound here on the West coast.. My friend that manages a Honda dealerhip has 12 CRV's on his lot right now, 7 Pilots, and 9 Oddssey's.. His dealership is is about mid-size.
cegledi.. I agree 100 percent! My wife also owns an 00 Accord. I am not as brand loyal as some may think. I too have an Escape that has performed wonderfully for 19,000 miles. My Escape has proven to be very capable of towing and getting me to the skii slope, along with my fishing spots. The reason I don't buy this "Honda is god" mentality is because my wifes has been back to the dealership 3x. Along with what I see out on the internet. You can find peeved of Honda owners out here that expected perfection but got somthing else... as with any car brand..
1. My first company car, the 96 Ford Windstar, gave me about 100,000 mi. CR called it unreliable. The tranny died on me. I got rid of it.
2. After the Windstar died, my company loaned me another van, 1998 Dodge Caravan. (rated average reliability) No problems except for the brakes. I bought it from my company recently for a very low price.
3. After buying the Caravan, I got the 2000 Chevy Venture from my company(poor reliability by CR). It recently went through major repairs at 60,000 mi.
3. My own personal car, a 92 Toyota Camry w/ 180,000 mi on it, was recommended by CR. It had no major problems at all.
In the end, the Camry was bought by a happy new owner.
As for me, I went out and bought myself a 2002 Honda CR-V EX!! (excellent reliability from CR, btw)
scape2, I think I've read a couple of your articles on escape-central.com as well, you seem to be in the mix like I am. Good to see you care.
Kind of makes you wonder how (Ford) a company that is supposed to be this big evil company that builds unreliable low quality vehicles can have 3 of the best 10 sellers in the country. I thought it was 4 actually?? the Explorer, F-series, Taurus, and the Ranger?? Anyway... Ford isn't going anywhere. I predict Ford is going to come roaring back this next 10 years. Have you seen the new Mustang?? Its going to be a hit no doubt....
I don't think Ford will go out of business.
BUT because they sell a large volume of vehicles doesn't mean they are doing the best financially. ie. United versus Jet Blue.... Ford versus Honda
Ford Freestyle:
That is an attractive vehicle, it looks like my favorite vehicle, the Audi Allroad.
That picture is of one of the show cars that will be making its way around the world this year. MT has a big article (which I have not read just yet) in their Feb. issue about the next gen Mustang. They show a picture of a disguised test mule that has been seen around the Detroit metro area and it has a slightly different design. Most notable, the hood overhang is more pronounced on the mule which seems to mimic the Shelby Cobra's of old. I for one can't wait to see one in my garage in a few years! The hard part will be deciding what to get rid of when the time comes though. The Escape, or the Mazda 6 that we are hopefully replacing the Civic with sometime this year.
I told scape that before. There are often 3 to 6 CRV's sitting on the lot but they are all spoken for. There is a 2 to 6 week wait. This is in NY.
HIGHS
1. bigger, roomier, and more powerful than the old CRV.
2. great gas mileage and refined motor
3. great resale and reliability with a honda
4. LOW PRICE Don't pay MSRP or fall for the hype that they are all sold. Here in eastern NC, there are plenty to go around and you can buy one for under 22k easy.
5. good looking wheels (although too small)
6. tailgate works great! I like the driver side opening.
7. Cargo area is roomy with the seats down.
8. Cubbies everywhere!! Almost too many....
9. EX had a full size matching spare tire
LOWS
1. Sunroof that doesn't open all the way.
2. Interior materials look cheap. My experience has shown the Honda cloth to hold up very well but it still looks cheap.
3. Stereo pretty much sucks. Aside from having the 6 disc in dash, it's very weak.
4. 3/36 warranty doesn't cut it anymore. Honda should do 4/50 across the board especially considering they offer 7/100 on their CPO cars.
5. cheap tires
6. no power seats
Advantages of the Escape/Tribute
1. more powerful engine
2. leather and power seats available
3. bigger sunroof
4. bigger 16" wheels
5. better warranty on the Tribute (Ford dealers have been known to sell an extended warranty at cost to make up for this)
6. better towing
Advantages for the CRV
1. better mpg
2. better resale value
3. reliability should be better
4. cheaper price
Rear seats slide and recline.
Easy access to rear w/ folding center table.
3 shoulder belts for rear passengers.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/030107-5.htm
The Escape's rear seat backs recline too. As I recall, varmint and I went back and forth on this subject a long time ago. As it turns out the old gen CR-V actually had a better recline system than the new one which is almost identical to the Escape's system. The old gen's recline went almost to the floor whereas the new one's only go a few inches. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Steve and tidester, should we post the new URL?
Your comments are encouraging though!
Steve, Host
I have to say, the new search engine is a HUGE improvement.
How about some links that are mostly topical?
Rugged Rubber Buggy Bumpers à la Honda (NYTimes)
and new incentives announced for the Escape:
Ford Offers Incentives on New Cars (Newsday)
Steve, Host
Do the Escape's rear seats slide back and forth?
Instead of the bed, the new CR-V offers the sliding rear seat and the ability to fold them forward without removing headrests.
Nope. The leg room is fixed. I believe the CR-V has something like an inch or two more than the Escape when its (CR-V) seats are pushed all the way back. I've also heard that it is less than an inch by some CR-V owners. Either way, the Escape has more rear leg room than some mid-sized models. No more is needed if you ask me.
The "lounge chair" is doable in the Escape as well.
If I remember correctly, the "new" CR-V's rear seat backs do not fold forward flat either.
"and new incentives announced for the Escape:"
$1000 increase on the cash back option. The interest rate options don't seem to have moved at all. If I'd have known this, almost exactly to the day, one year ago I would have waited. Absolutely no incentives existed on the Escape back then. We even had to wait for one to come in to buy one. Several 4 cyl. copies were ripe for the taking though.
Now for your monthly sales report:
Ford:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=13955
Honda:
http://hondanews.com/forms/corp/sales/02dec.html
The Escape did out sell the CR-V by a decent margin in December, but the CR-V did win the yearly crown by a little less than 1000 units.
hondaman,
What Canadians are really buying:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=14063
What that Canadian article doesn't tell you is how well the CR-V is doing up in the GWN. An article from a few months back had the CR-V about 1,500 units from taking the yearly SUV sales crown from the Explorer. Down in Australia, the CR-V outsells everything, including the UK spec versions of the Pathfinder, 4Runner, TLC, Subaru wagons, and Isuzu trucks.
Well, it was from Ford's own media site.
Is this not about the same results for the U.S. as well?
The leaders are the same, but the amounts by which they lead is probably much greater in the U.S. according to what varmint stated a couple of posts prior to this one. If the CR-V is in fact close to the Explorer in Canada, then no, the results are not really the same. In the U.S. three Explorers are sold for every one CR-V sold. It seems that it is almost a one to one ratio in Canada. That is kind of surprising to me given, as you mentioned, the Canadian terrain/climate. The smaller SUV's don't seem like the best choice. Gas prices and other factors probably play a big role in their popularity though. That's just a guess so correct me if I'm wrong.
Just think, if Ford is selling three Explorers to every one CR-V in the US and Ford stock is currently at 10.10. Someone isn't making much money on their vehicles.
Imagine running ads that say the Taurus, Explorer, and F150 lead their classes in sales. Then having the tell your stock holders their stock is at 10.10 and dividends are at .10 a share.
I know the whole economy is down but, from my vantage point, Ford is getting hit much harder than the rest of the auto world.
Any thoughts on why?
I think the Pilot will start taking a toll on Explorer sales.
It hasn't done much damage yet. Explorer sales were up from last year. Putting four solid tires on the new version helped that though.
Honda will never (in the near future anyway) be able to manufacture enough of them to do too much damage anyway.
Stock price has nothing to do with this. Like I said before, if you can subtract Honda's lawn mowers, weed eaters, can openers, powered tooth brushes, robotic waiters, etc. from their stock price, a better comparison can be made. I have no doubt that Honda would look better right now, but not by as much.
Honda sells to fleets too, and the difference between Ford's sales and Honda's sales (about two million total units) is not because Ford sells more to fleets. Some of those fleets are work fleets you know. They buy trucks and use them for the business. Not all fleet vehicles are rental cars.
"Any thoughts on why?"
The $.10 dividend is a lot more than they were handing out a year ago. Things are improving slowly, but improving nonetheless.
The article below states that Ford will post a modest profit this year.
http://www.detnews.com/2003/autosinsider/0301/08/a01-55083.htm
The bottom picture is of the SVT Lightning concept, not the everyday F-150 as the caption says. The Mustang at the top is also a concept, yet rumored to be very close to the production version. That is, if anyone cares like I do.
I think the Explorer's huge advantage in sales is due largley to its success when it was first introduced. It was the first four door SUV that delivered a total package. Prior to the Explorer, many SUVs were the size of the CR-V and were designed with sporty-looking two door models in mind. Most were purpose-built with towing and off-roading in mind. The Explorer was the first to have practical values as the family hauler. The Explorer was the perfect truck back when the SUV boom was just getting started. People remember that. It has become the working man's icon. Shiftwright would kill me for saying this, but it has as much "heritage" as an SUV can have. It sells, not because it's still the best, but because it has a history of being the best. Until Ford does something truly drastic (like they did with the Taurus), it will remain the darling of the working class.