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Comments
http://www.cars.com/news/stories/121202_storya_ap.jhtml?aff=national
http://www.pistonheads.com/truth/default.asp?storyId=5964
"Look Again", sounds like the advice provided just prior to crossing the street.
I'm surprised the author didn't mention Honda's latest slogan. For a long time, they used "Powered by Honda", which made a certain amount of sense for a company well-known for their engines. However, they recently changed over to "Powered by Dreams". This makes me wonder about a company that is supposed to be down-to-earth.
varmint,
I always thought the "No Boundaries" slogan worked well for Ford being that they are mostly know for rugged trucks, just as the "Powered by Honda" slogan worked well for Honda. Now I don't know what to think of "Powered by Dreams" and "Look Again". Honda's certainly don't appear in my dreams, and look again does seem a little desperate. I guess Ford is trying to play off of it's up-coming cars which should be a refreshing departure from their last few new models. Maybe the Honda execs are dreaming of a world with no pollution (dream on I say), or maybe they're just drinking too much green tea.
*edit*
Just saw diploid's correction after I posted. "The Power of Dreams" is pretty much the same as "Powered by Dreams", so I'll keep my comments in tact.
Brake dust.. here we go again. Take a look around. You will see brake dust on BMW's to Toyota's to even Honda's. My wifes Accord gives off brake dust...
A neighbor down the street just dumped thier Civic for a Ford Escape premium.. Even AFTER test driving the CRV they CHOSE the Escape....
There is no way you can tell me the V6 power in the Escape is "just ok". Tell you what, test drive an Escape, put the pedal down to the floor going about 35mph and tell me it doesn't set you back in your seat, something the CRV does not do..
As I have posted before I extensively shopped and did several back to back test drives comparing these two vehicles. After three different drives in three different CR-V's and Escapes there was NO noticeable performance difference. It seems that the Escape with almost the same size and weight but, with a BIG 40 HP & Torque ADVANTAGE should EASILY out perform the CR-V at any speed. Well it does not??? Looking at the numbers in my latest Truck Trend confirms that. I liked both vehicles and if the Escape would have provided the performance advantage that the numbers suggest it could, an Escape would have been in my garage instead of a CR-V. Since the performance was a wash between the two the overall package of the CR-V met our needs better.
Not sure where that extra 40 HP/Torque advantage is getting lost but I'd be scratching my head if I were Ford.
Reed
Did anyone EVER say that Honda's never break down........NO!
Load them both up with a lot of cargo/passengers and watch the numbers for the CR-V drop much faster than the Escape's. Or do you just use your CR-V to carry yourself back and forth to work? There isn't much performance difference in that situation. Also, the Escape does beat the CR-V in the 1/4 mile, so, in the end, it does make up for whatever was lost in the 0-60 test.
I drove both as well, and found the CR-V to be rather weak on large hills. All depends on the driver, not the numbers.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/central2.cfm
Not sure if this will work but there is a lot of them for you all to look at!
I noticed that there were only 4 stalling issues for the CRV compared to ?? many for the Escape as well as many more issues.
I just used this to compare reliability and to also prove that EVERY vehicle has their issues but some more than others SCAPE!
Just turned 19,000 trouble free miles on my 01 V6 4WD Black XLT Escape! First good snow this year in the Cascades has arrived. I'm going skiing this weekend in my very reliable Escape..
Secret warranty???????? Did I miss something?
Honda would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for that meddling scape2!!!!!
DAMN!!!! Found out. Hey scape, Honda can't cover up recalls, that's illegal. If they have a good PR department that engages in brand image damage control well, that sounds like good biz to me.
(I can't stay away...)
Steve, Host
If you replace it before it's broken, it's maintenance. If it breaks and you HAVE to fix it, it's a repair.
My EXPERIENCE has been with maintenance on my Honda's, repairs on my Pontiac and Plymouth. Hell, I never got to do maintenance, everything broke on the Fiero before I had a chance! The Plymouth? One word, Neon, you take it from there.
NOW LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!! I'm going to have to enter the Drivers Protection Program!
I agree with icvci..........when we used to rent domestics for long periods, there were very many break downs ranging from minor to major and most of all, lost time!
No one is going to convinvce me of the many miles of personal experience I have had with all sorts of cars. Honda and Toyota win hands down all the time in that area.
Now can we realize that that works both ways?
We're not talking BMWs or Accords here.
I've noticed an unusually large percentage of Escapes with brake dust on the front wheels, more so than other mini-utes. Maybe others have also noticed.
You have long been fixated on the braking-distance advantage of the Escape, so it is a valid debatable point.
I'm saying that advantage may be due to soft OEM pads, leading to more frequent replacement.
It's also possible Escape owners drive their vehicles harder.
I will admit that if ever one day I get a bad Honda, you would definately see me look around at something else.......that is the way I am. I may be a very big Honda customer but I am also smart enough to use the same logic that made me go from domestics to imports. For example, if I had the wifes approval to spend a lot on a car, it would be a BMW! I just don't feel like paying 20000$ more right now BUT one day...........
http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0220.htm#5
http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news67/
In the most recent J.D. Power initial quality survey of new cars, Chevy came in No. 2 behind Honda. Toyota fell to No. 3. The survey measures problems in the first 90 days of ownership."
Although that largely depends on your view of the JDP IQS. I find it to be inconsistent with results of its other study, particularly the long term/dependability study (where Chevy is below average).
As someone here stated "personal experience". So far my experience, my families experience along with numerous friends experience with Ford products has been favorable.
I can no longer get my link to work to the CRV class action lawsuit about burnt valves... I will keep hunting.
How do you know about more frequent replacement on the brake pads for the Escape?? The Escape stops up to 14 feet better than the CRV, depending on who you read and want to believe. And it will out handle the CRV.
I visited with my brother last week - he doesn't miss his CR-V but is enjoying his '00 F150 so much two of his in-laws have gone out and brought them.
Steve, Host
If there was any smoke here, there'd be floods of posts all over the net. I doubt that this one has legs.
Carry on!
Steve, Host
So much that Toyota has issued a statement and prolonged its engine warrantys.
I followed that topic(toyota sludge) for quiet a while. A lot of the Toyota excusers just couldn't accept the fact that SOME Toyota engines do sludge up.
I just couldn't believe my eyes when the owners of the sludged up vehicles were being insulted and accused in anti-toyota conspiracies just for reporting their problems.
I'v never seen anything like this on going on (accusations) on any of the Big Three boards.
I guess the mentality of the loyal domestic and import customers do differ in a major way.
As someone here stated "personal experience". So far my experience, my families experience along with numerous friends experience with Ford products has been favorable
So far my experience has been that many Ford owners I know still own Ford but more have gone on to other manufactures because of lack of longevity and quality issues. Is every Honda a diamond? No way. However, I personally do not know anyone that has given up a Honda for a Ford.
But I guess your right Ford does sell 3 million and Walmart is growing all the time as well.
Reed
It quickly dawned on me that we were discussing mostly American cars, and he practically had no knowledge of any other brands outside of GM and Ford. He knew Dodge, but didn't even care for Chrysler at all.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/021213/autos_fueleconomy_1.html
That was fairly interesting.
MT's January issue tells us that GM has given the green light for a new Cadillac V12. I don't imagine it is going to help their average.
Also, the new Grand Prix is going to be offered with their 3.8L push rod V6 as the standard engine next year. I think they use that engine in just about every car they sell (except maybe the Cavalier and Malibu). I don't even think I was of legal driving age when that one was introduced!
Nissan was a bit of a surprise. Their 3.5L V6 (Maxima, Altima, etc.) is a pretty high tech engine, but from what I've read, it's very inefficient.
hondaman,
I'm with you on the BMW's, but given their recent history (along with most other German auto makers) and your "if I get a bad one I'll look elsewhere" (I'm the same way with a lot of things too. Sony is on my list right now.) method, you won't be buying another one after the first one dies.
I can understand your sony thing as I had the same problem and have just purchased a NAD system (compliments of Santa!) for Christmas! It comes in on Friday and I can't wait!
By the way, I did mean what I said about "if ever I get a bad Honda" but I am not sure that will happen after owning 9 of them.......but hey, stranger things have happened.
INCENTIVES!!!!!!!!
Ford employs approximately 354,431 people! Not to mention fleet sales (THEY OWN HERTZ!!), government sales, and supplier sales. SOME PEOPLE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO BUY AMERICAN!!!!!
If Ford (or any of the big 3) stopped offering such large discounts to their employees and suppliers, I wonder how many of them would drive one of their cars?
Does the Ford 3 million include Mazda, Jag, Aston, Land Rover, Lincoln, Merc and Volvo?
Sales really aren't the best way to judge quality.
Also, vehicles classified as cars aren't in question. The standard for cars remains 27mpg as it has been since '96. The Grand Prix, Altima and Maxima are counted against the current standards. Only the trucks need to improve.
That said, I agree that Nissan's engines are not all they're cracked up to be. Yes, they are plenty powerful and smooth. Nissan is ahead in the horsepower battle. However, they are nothing special in terms of fuel efficiency and cleanliness. IMHO, other engines do a better job of getting the balance correct.
I think Nissan is in trouble because all of their trucks are "trucky" designs. They only have the Quest minivan to balance out the low mpg ratings for the Xterra, PF, and Frontier. While companies like Ford and Toyota have a few gas guzzlers in their fleet, they also have a crossover or two to balance things out. Honda has no such troubles because they don't offer a guzzler. Even the Pilot (Honda's most thirsty vehicle) gets 17-22 mpg.
Frankly, I do not understand how Isuzu is getting by. Though CAFE standards are "corporate" averages. So I'm not sure how subordinate companies like Mazda are factored in. I think GM pretty much owns Isuzu, so their vehicles may be offset by GM's more efficient fleet.
By comparison, sales fell 32 percent at G.M. and 34 percent at Ford despite incentive spending of $2,575 and $2,392 a vehicle, respectively. These levels could be pushed higher if demand diminishes because competition is only increasing as foreign automakers like Nissan, Toyota and Honda continue to build more plants and push more vehicles in the United States, by far the most lucrative market.
INCENTIVES!
I am considering a few small SUV's but have narrowed my choices down to the CRV and the Mazda Tribute. I am looking for something with a 4 cylinder engine and AWD for around $ 20,000.
I have heard and seen that the Ford Escape had some first year reliability woes, and the Mazda Tribute did as well... How are they now in terms of build quality and reliability? Comments from 2002 Escape owners would be appreciated.. Anyone have an escape/tribute with the 4 ? how does it perform ?
In regards to the CRV, the price seems very good for a 2003 LX AWD 5 speed, but I can't get past the horrid rear end styling... I guess its a matter of style vs substance? Any comments from 2003 CRV owners? Thankx
That's right. I was just using it as an example of their lack of "high tech" engines. The Caddy V12 is supposedly going into two or three vehicles. Two of the cars will definitely be low volume models, but the other is the Escalade line which does sell pretty well. Although, I don't see too many of them on the roads around here. Navigators seem to be the choice tank for this area.
icvci,
The Escape is still sold with one of the lowest, if not the lowest, incentive packages offered by Ford. I think it is currently 3.9/4.9/5.9 for 36/48/60 months or $500 cash back. Not much compared to most others.
"Does the Ford 3 million include Mazda, Jag, Aston, Land Rover, Lincoln, Merc and Volvo?"
No. Only the Ford brand. Fleet sales do factor in somewhat, but not 1.5 million I would guess. Honda, Toyota, and other foreign makes are available as rentals in Canada according to hondaman2. I've never seen them (foreign rentals) myself in the U.S..
There's nothing wrong with incentives. Just as sales totals do not measure quality, neither do lack of incentives. Honda and Toyota can't produce the amount of vehicles that Ford and GM can. They have to get rid of overflow somehow. Besides, if they didn't sell their left-overs to rental companies, what would you rent?
Honda isn't totally innocent either. Every year they have their big year end clearance event to get rid of the old and make room for the new.
What's impressive about Honda is that of the 8 models they make, the only ones you can actually walk onto any Honda lot in America and be guaranteed you'll see are Civics, Accords, and maybe Insights. As far as I can tell, the only incentive Honda's offering is 1.9-4.5% financing on Civics. Everything else they build may require a buyer to be put on a waiting list. CR-V's have been like this since the redesign last year, and despite Honda releasing 2 new SUV's this year, CR-V's are only selling better every month.
FORD TO APPEAL $225 MILLION VERDICT
An appeal is planned of the $225 million wrongful death award handed down last week by a Texas jury that said Ford Motor Co. was responsible for the deaths of two people in an accident involving an F-150 pickup. “We will be appealing it,” Ford spokeswoman Kathleen Vokes told Reuters. During the trial, Ford attorneys argued that the driver was drunk and that neither of the two men killed were wearing seatbelts. But the jury ruled that defects in the pickup were the main contributing factors in the rollover accident. Handed down in San Diego, TX last Friday, it is one of the largest verdicts ever to hit a U.S. automaker.
Q&A: Ford's Nick Scheele by Paul A. Eisenstein (12/16/2002)
I'm sure with the new 2.3 the Escape/Trib will do much better in the 4cyl category. Do you know what the HP/Torque ratings are? are they final? I have heard anywhere from 150HP/150ft/lbs of torque down to 140HP/ about 140ft/lbs of torque...
the honda dealer near me has a bunch of Pilots and Accords sitting on its lot. The thing is, most are already spoken for.
Test drive. Check MPG and enviornmental issues (if that's your bag), towing capacities, maintenance schedules, interior appointments, comfort, everything that interests you.
You may also want to contact your insurer to find out which would be more cost effetive for you. I was looking at 5 vehicles, Matrix, RAV4, VW Jetta TDI and the CRV. The CRV was $250 less a year to insure than any of the others.
Happy shopping!
Honda uses big incentives to move stock at the end of the year. Ford uses big incentives to move cars all year.
I just got 4.9% for 60 months on my CR-V but, not until I told my sales person I had already qualified for it and had the check from another bank in my hand.