XM & Sirius Satellite Radio

tidester

...it is Sirius that is more likely to bite the dust first, of the two of them.

And after the fire sale will they adopt the name Phoenix?

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

oldsman01

I don't think that either will bite the dust if they stay true to their core product and that is providing subscribers with a wide variety of music offerings with digital quality sound. I've had XM since November of last year and enjoy it alot. I'm glad to see the automakers getting on board to offer satellite radio. GM and Honda seem to be behind XM while Ford, Chrysler, BMW, and now Nissan are going with Sirius. If the market can support up to eight different cell phone providers in a single market, I think two national satellite radio providers can make it. Incentives are okay to encourage subscribers, but I hope XM and Sirius don't fall into the trap of giving the farm away to sign people up the way cell companies have as the product itself(XM and Sirius) can stand on it's own merits without the need of hoopla.

stever

NPR had a story tonight on satellite radio - there's about 10,000 Sirius customers and 100,000 (?) XM customers to date, and something like 3 billion dollars invested. So things are tough. People are reluctant to pay $300 for another radio and then pay the monthly fee.

XM is relying on GM (a part owner) offering XM radios as standard in some models and options in others to jump start them in the coming year. I forgot what Sirius is relying on.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

ashutoshsm

A little slow, as usual. Which is why the future of radio is satellite radio

Sirius has around twice as many subscribers as that, and I know XM had 136,000 at the end of 2Q 2002, and expected to increase it by 50% or more over 3Q.

Not to mention the hardware costs less than you imply - the Pioneer add-on unit is 150, with a $50 antenna and free installation. The Sony PlugNPlay unit, that comes with an antenna, costs 199 as well. No idea what Sirius H/W costs, but its got to be in the same range.

In addition, if you search on XM's website, there are places to get a $50 off coupon (I don't remember where any more) and you could also get recommended by a current subscriber, in which case XM sends you the coupon by email.

As for car manufacturer tie-ins, both have a number of them now - not just GM. Mazda, Ford, Audi/VW and others will offer Sirius. XM is offered by Honda, GM, Audi/VW (again) and many others. I think they'll pull through (XM will)

stever

Today's news reports that there are now 200,000 XM subscribers:


internetnews

They also report $199 radios, and I don't see an antenna cost off-hand.



Steve

Host

SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

oldsman01

I just took a 1200 mile(round trip) drive to Chicago this past weekend and enjoyed XM radio very much. I brought along about 6 CDs as well and only listened to three of them. It was so great to drive and continue to listen to the same format and not have to worry about getting out of range right in the middle if a favorite song. I figured the long drive would give me time to "surf" the XM dial, but other than jump to about 5 or 6 different channels, I really did not have the need to surf because I was enjoying what I heard. Unlike FM where you hear a good song or two then either a string of worn out hits or an endless loop of commercials.

oldsman01

For anyone who spends considerable time on the road and enjoys a broad range of music, the cost of the XM equipment and the subsciption isn't even an issue.

ftm1

I just took 2 road trips in the last 2 weeks & put about 2,300 miles on my car. I had the XM radio going the entire time & I most say it was pure joy. I went from Washington D.C. to the mountains of upstate New York. The signal came in most of the trip with only a few seconds of lost reception. This was only when the car was very close to a moutain or high hills. This was the 1st time since I got XM that I spent more than 2hours at a time in the car with it. I also took a road trip to coastal North Carolina with no signal loss at all.I am 40yrs old & listen to oldies R&B music most of the time. They have a channel on XM called Soul Street that plays music from the soul music from the 60s & 70s. They even dip back to some late 50s or very early 60s sometime. I had an aunt with me on the trip to North Carolina I was taken her to her sons 60 birthday party. She is about 80yrs old & was enjoying the music all the way down. When she got there she was telling her son all about it. My mother at 75yrs enjoys this music when she is in the car. I only have the Universal XM Pioneeer FM modulator in my car. It sounds good & worth the about $10.00 a month fee that I pay every 3 months.

jgmilberg

I don't think so but this article says otherwise. The commercial free stations far outweigh the digital signal, not to mention the endless range and outstanding variety of programming. You be the judge....

http://www.wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,55706,00.html

ashutoshsm

The huge advantages of Satellite radio are not limited to (although this biased news reports so implies) digital quality, but improved programming, less or no commercials, consistent quality driving cross country, or even short range.

Here's a quote I lifted from another discussion (clubxm) that sums things up nicely ...

Lets see.
Would I like to listen to 20 minutes per hour of commercials in digital format or 20 minutes per hour of commercials via FM?
Or would I pay $9.95 per Month and get to listen to 30 commercial free music channels and 40 music channels with 30 to 60 second commercials per 1 1/2 hours and get to listen to the same channel while driving from New York to PA?
Decisions Decisions Decisions

And another opinion ...
Of course that article was biased, coming from an NAB front like Wired. But it's amazing that the guy can just plain lie ...
what "similar services" is he talking about. Sat radio produces a signal coast to coast; ibiquity doesn't, Sat radio is commercial free; ibiquity isn't, XM is on track with their forecasted sub growth which makes it one of the fastest growing technology introductions ever; ibiquity has been knocking around for years and is years behind schedule .... Just a bunch of BS showing how scared the NAB is.

That sums up how I feel as well!

oldsman01

While not the most intellectually stimulating ad, I saw an ad for the 2003 Chevy Cavalier and it said "now available with XM radio" and had a guy sitting in the car singing along with "American Pie" and then getting out of the car once the song was over. The sad thing is, I have actually done that as I've heard songs on XM that you simply do not hear on FM radio and did not want to leave the car until it was over.

edwardt1

I own 4 vehicles, they all have XM radio.
I can't imagine not having XM radio. I do
look foward to future hardware as I believe it
will be easier to navigate. I have very serious
dobuts about XM and Sirius both surviving long term. I am confidant that I chose the provdier
that will prevail.My wife had a sound system
installed in her 2001 YUKON. The head unit
was a Kenwood that was Sirius ready. She traded
the unit for an Alpine because she got tired of
waiting for Sirius to launch. I believe the delay
that Sirius had along with GM using XM makes XM
the long - term winner. I hope so otherwise I will
own a lot of useless equipment.

Edward

oldsman01

I've also read that Sirius does not seem to have as "deep" a variety in their playlists despite being commercial free. One of the reasons I love XM is that I'm all the time hearing songs that I literally have not heard in years and some I'd even forgotten were so good. I have yet to sample Sirius. For the sake of those among us who enjoy real variety in their music, I hope that both survive. XM seems to have the upper hand now, but Sirius is now partnering with automakers as well.

anonymous02

Does anyone know what satellites these use?

I was looking at http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/RealTime/JPass/20/ which is a pretty cool tracking site, and wanted to see if they could be seen.

Thanks.

mlm4

Both are Boeing Satellite Systems 702. XM-1 ("Roll") and XM-2 ("Rock"). There is also a spare named XM-3 that would be launched if one of the other two failed. I found info on the web about their positions: Rock is in geostationary orbit (0 degrees latitude) at 114.98 W, which is roughly due south of Yuma, Arizona, and Roll at 85.12 W, which is roughly due south of Tallahassee, Florida.

stever

Sirius gloom & doom story. Any predictions on whether digital radio will affect satellite radio adoption?

Steve, Host

anonymous02

But, I bet FREE radio might cut in tremendously!

ashutoshsm

And digital, for that matter - will still have too many ads, the same boring, midget-sized playlists and the same personality-less and irritating mainstream DJs. I don't see them as having a hope to compete with the current quality of Satellite (particularly XM) radio.

oldsman01

Still doesn't get it. The reason people are paying $9.99 or $12.99 a month for radio is because free radio(i.e. AM and FM) SUCKS! Analog or digital, it stinks. Broadcasting the same garbage in digital isn't going to improve anything unless you enjoy hearing those lame screaming car dealer commercials in DTS surround sound. If "Free" radio actually starts listening to it's listeners and not focus groups and they start playing a real variety of music with fewer commercials, then XM and Sirius might be in trouble. But as long as the same cut and dry programming and annoying(and sometimes borderline obscene) on air personalities clog the airwaves, satellite radio will have a growing audience.

ftm1

People are forgetting the coast to coast broadcast coverage of stations. It was a pleasure to drive from Washington D.C. to the mountains of New York State & From D.C. to coastal North Carolina listening to my favorite XM station.

anonymous02

Trouble is, not too many people percentagewise, do that in this country.

stever

That was the plug on digital radio - most commuters don't get beyond 50 miles from a city center and tend to stick to one station. If the station is digital and more clear, there's even more reason to stick.

I'm a button puncher myself (steering wheel controls). The first sign of a commercial and I'm hunting for the next station. I'm dang sick of oldies and mellow rock stations though. The local Spanish language station is getting a lot of play in my van these days - they really are local, and I don't have Rick Dees telling me how beautiful the weather is in Boise today (like he can look out his LA window and tell!). Of course I only catch about every 50th word on the Hispanic radio station....

Steve, Host

mlm4

This morning on my way to work I happened by the '80s on 8, where the morning jock was sampling the new Boston album being released in a few weeks. He came on and said, "I'm going to surf through this CD." He played about 15-30 seconds of each track, in the same sort of manner that I would check out a new CD at places like Virgin or Borders that have headphones for that sort of thing. He seemed to be in his own little world, just having a good time checking out the new album. Now, I've never heard that happen on commercial radio before! Way cool...

oldsman01

That would have been Bruce Kelly, I heard that as well. When it the last time an FM station even played a Boston album other than maybe wearing out a couple of their hit songs like "More than a Feeling" or "Amanda".

oldsman01

XM might want to try is to pay to equip the vehicles(at least the luxury ones) that GM sells to rental fleets and let someone who has just rented a Caddy for a road trip experience just how much better a long distance drive is with real music. Who knows, when they get back home they just might consider getting XM for themselves. I was sold on XM long before taking a road trip, but after a 9 hour drive to Chicago last month, I know I will NEVER take a road trip without XM. I brought along about 6 of my favorite road trip CDs as well and found that I only listened to two of them as I had no desire to turn off the XM. Whether your driving coast to coast or just across town, the variety is what makes XM so great. No static or interference is also nice.

jgmilberg

Here in Michigan a lot of people have vacation cabins/houses in the northern part of the state and live in the southern part, I myself am one of them. To get to my place it's a 3.5 to 4 hour drive, and XM is the greatest thing ever invented for this frequent journey. The stations up at my place stink to high heavens too, not to mention the frequent static/drop out interruptions that come with FM. XM never drops and never has me looking for a station to listen to. Besides that I go to a couple amusement parks over 100 miles away about once a month, so again at least with me it is range that is important along with the non interrupted music and comedy.

Even IF fm goes digital it means jack because it's STILL FM!!! It will still have the same range and the same static under over passes and stuff, it will sound moderately better than regular FM.

stever

A bit off-topic, but this idea would make an interesting complement to your satellite radio:

Radio gives mighty roar to quiet cars

Steve, Host

smithpa

I have a 2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette and XM radio is not an option for this model. However, I have noticed that the head units for the GM models that offer XM radio are exactly the same as the factory unit in my Silhouette (same buttons, same display, identical). Does that mean the 2003 Olds Silhouette in-dash 6-disc stereo is XM-capable, but that it is not activated for some reason? Is there a plug-in for the stereo that would enable the XM radio feature?

ashutoshsm

or Crutchfield.com would be best equipped to answer that for you. You may also want to check at another forum - clubxm.com, or xmfan.com being the two main ones.

If it is truly NOT XM compatible, though, all is not lost! You can go with an aftermarket (Pioneer, Sony or Delphi) kit that is FM modulated or plays through a cassette (like the CD-player adapters of yore!) and get decent (WAY better than FM) quality sound.

When you figure out a way, post it here so that it'll help others, and post your experiences with XM as well.

I use a Pioneer setup, with a headunit connected by the digital IP-bus cable to a CD-changer and daisy-chained to the XM radio receiver. The sound quality is mind blowing, and the programming is incredible! Good luck.

anonymous02

"(like the CD-player adapters of yore!) "

What is that supposed to mean? You think that those just disappeared or something? Works fine on the Jetta.

oldsman01

CD player adapters of "yore" were common in the early 90s when most cars just had cassette players and portable CD players came out. They still exist, but aren't very common now because so many cars come with CD players.

jgmilberg

If you have OnStar you might run into problems, but I am not sure. Check here to find out, they don't have the adapter available yet, but they will have them soon, so you can hook up the aftermarket Alpine or Pioneer XM units to the factory radio.

http://www.blitzsafe.com/blitz_catalog/blitz_xm/blitz_xm_list/blitz_gm/blitz_gm.html

kbtoys

Just wondering if you were to get a car with the factory xm radio do you still need to buy an
XM antenna? Do they have a seprate antenna with the factory units?

oldsman01

I believe that cars which come with XM from the factory have the antenna installed already. The one Cadillac used for 02 models was huge and rather ugly looking so from what I've heard, they are using a newer design this year. I also noticed in Crutchfield that the antenna which comes with the Sony unit I have is much smaller than the "shark fin" one they initially used.

jgmilberg

If you order factory XM you get the antenna on the car from the factory. Some are mounted on the front of the roof, and others are on the rear of the roof. The new antenna is much much smaller and more appealing than the original units on Cadillac, they are all going to the smaller unit, including the full size trucks/suvs. The new antennas are about 1.5" tall, 3" wide and 3.5" long. The old one was as tall as a 12oz soda can and looked like the Pioneer roof mount http://www.xmradio.com/catalog/product_detail.jsp?id=26215&type=Antenna The new ones look like the Terk SR-2 roof mount w/o the tail http://www.xmradio.com/catalog/product_detail.jsp?id=24864&type=Antenna

oldsman01

Went to an auto show over the weekend and several of the cars there had factory installed XM. All were GM cars and the antenna is much smaller and less obtrusive than the one used on 02s. In fact, it was less noticeable than the Onstar antenna on most cars.

oldsman01

How long has everyone here been an XM or Sirius subscriber? I've had XM since November 2001 so in a couple of weeks I will have had XM a year now. Still loving it every bit as much as I did when I first got the service.

jgmilberg

I have had it since December 2001, so I too will be coming up on my one year anniversary. Every time I get into my truck I experience a different type of music. I have my presets, but even in the preset stations there is such a variety in the programming on just a couple stations that you really don't need to surf much. Every car I buy from now on will be XM equipped with XM either factory or aftermarket. Worth every penny in my opinion.

mlm4

Here's the factory XM antenna on a 2003 Pontiac Bonneville. The antennas are different on the full-size trucks, with the Onstar and XM antennas combined into a single unit. On some cars, like the Alero, the antenna is mounted on the leading edge of the roof. The large sedans have it on the trailing edge.

oldsman01

Thats the antenna that I saw on several cars at the auto show. They had a Tahoe there and it had the same antenna as above but it was mounted on the front of the roof near the windshield. The Onstar antenna on trucks and SUVs is also now mounted on the front of the roof as well but it is separate from the XM antenna.

jgmilberg, I seldomly have to surf past my five presets on XM as the variety and depth of music is great. I'm all the time hearing songs that I literally had not heard in years. I like to listen to alot of retro music from the 70s and 80s and there is no shortage of these type stations on FM now, but the problem is the FM stations think that the only music in the 70s was Barry Manilow and the Bee Gees while FM's idea of the 80s is Michael Jackson, Culture Club, and Duran Duran. XM plays these but they also play the rest of the music which was played in the 80s as well. And FM will play the same old songs over and over. Most FM stations must think Journey's only hit from the 80s was Faithfully as that is the only one they play. I've heard multiple Journey songs including some that weren't very big hits on XM. I've noticed the same trends on other XM channels as well. I also like smooth jazz like XM plays on Watercolors(#71) and we don't even have a station like that on FM anymore. We did have one, but the morons that run the show prefer to listen to their teenage focus groups and changed it to an urban/hip-hop format. That happened about the time I installed XM in my car so the preset which had been set for that station simply became the frequency the XM RF modulator uses. Every future car I have WILL have XM.

mlm4

I thought I had read somewhere that the OnStar and XM antennas would be combined into a single unit for the full-size trucks, but what I actually read was that there would be a running change during the 2003 model year from the tall XM antenna to the low-profile one now used on the cars. Don't know when or if this has occurred. But for the meantime the two antennas are separate.

jgmilberg

As of right now the On Star and XM antennas will be separate. According to my contacts On Star will interfere with the XM signal if the 2 antennas were in the same housing. If XM takes off they say that they will put some really serious money into getting the two antennas into one housing for factory installed units. The antenna on the P/U's and SUV's is being changed over to the low profile one as the plants run out of stock on the large ones.

ashutoshsm

FYI

The Pioneer FM-modulated receiver currently carries a $50 rebate. although the Sony does too (I think) and the Delphi is out - and both seem like better options if you want the flexibility of moving the radio to your home with the optional home kit.

anonymous02

If they gave me a free unit and installed it for me, I doubt I'd use it for a subscription fee.

ashutoshsm

OK - so YOU don't like XM.

If that is all you have to contribute to this forum, leave us converts and those keenly considering it to enjoy a civil discussion here in this forum. Thanks.

anonymous02

I like to keep an eye on it, to see if it goes belly up and becomes free or something like that. It sounds like it would be great then.

oldsman01

Have you ever listened to XM? I'm not sure I understand what your beef is with it. Maybe you enjoy the same old cut and dry, focus group dervived, commercial laden programming FM offers, but for those of us who like a little variety and depth to our music(and fewer or no commercials) XM is great. To me and aparently to many others, the 9.99 monthly access fee is well worth it. People had the same argument against cable television and cellular phones when they first came out. Now look at them. I think satellite radio will have a very good future.

timadams

There's some useful information in the following article, but note that XM is dropping the USA Today channel for CNN, so there is probably also some sour grapes under the surface:

>>XM Satellite Radio lays off 80 employees

Thu Nov 14, 7:41 AM ET

Earle Eldridge USA TODAY

XM Satellite Radio, pioneer and leading provider of nationwide satellite radio programming, laid off 80 of its roughly 480 employees Wednesday and began switching to less-expensive programming as it grappled with the transition from money-eating start-up company to one that investors expect to spend less and make a profit.

The layoffs and program changes are to be announced today, same day as a previously scheduled XM conference call with Wall Street analysts to discuss third-quarter losses. XM lost $117 million in the second quarter. Wall Street has been pressuring XM to cut spending enough to stay in business.

''They are burning $90 million a quarter,'' says William Kidd, analyst with Lehman Bros. ''It's very difficult to be supportive of a business when the future is uncertain.''

Wall Street analysts forecast that XM, launched in December 2001, will run out of cash after the first quarter next year unless it cuts costs and attracts new investment.

Among the expected program changes: XM will drop the USA TODAY channel and add CNN.

Even as investors grow restless, satellite radio is growing.

XM and its main rival, Sirius Satellite Radio, are signing up more subscribers, making deals with more automakers to promote their brand of premium radio service, and have thousands of outlets selling satellite receivers nationwide.

If satellite radio survives its infancy, that'll be good news for several hundred thousand subscribers who've spent hundreds of dollars each on satellite radios for their cars or homes and love the wealth of choices and commercial-free programming they get coast to coast for $10 to $13 a month.

Chance Patterson, vice president at XM, says the company doesn't plan more layoffs and should break even by late 2004.

XM claims 201,500 subscribers and predicts 350,000 by year's end. Sirius, on the air only since July, claims just 14,000, growing to 40,000 by the end of the year.<<

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index2&cid=677

stever

the article goes on to say that GM's install of XM in new cars should help the growth rate.

Steve, Host

erickpl

For those who seem to complain about paying for a radio subscription, let me offer this:
1. Do you pay for any of the following:
Satellite TV
Cable Television
Internet Service
Phone, electric, gas, or other utility?
2. If you answered yes to #1 with one of the first three choices, why did you do it?
3. If you answered #2 with more choices, clearer reception, faster..., then you really have no issue with paying 10.00 for a radio subscription, especially if you spend any length of time in your car.

I will grant that if you spend about 10-15 minutes in your car a day, or even one way to work, then XM (or Sirius) may not be a logical choice for you. But what I think a lot of people are beginning to realize is that the more time you spend in your car either commuting, travelling, or sitting in traffic, the more you get tired of hearing the same commercials and the same 10-15 song loops that stations seem to use today. XM is all about choice; so is Sirius.

I drive 66 miles to work (live in mountains, work in the desert of Mojave, CA) and I frequenly listen to the XM Pops #113 in the morning to stay relaxed and listen without comment or commercial interruption. On the way home I may listed to the 80's, 90's, country, Ethel, Fred, Boneyard etc. And when I pick those channels, I don't always here the same songs over and over. But you CAN get that if you want. You have the Top 20 on 20 that cycles throughout the day. There is #21 which is KISS FM in LA. I can get this station on my car's regular radio, but it is full of static. I don't like static on my phones, tv, or dialup lines. Why should I have to settle for static on my radio? With XM, I don't. I used to use CD's to avoid static, but since I got XM back in late spring, I have had all of 3 CD's in the car, and they were my daughter's that she had just bought to use in our other non-XM car. I used to buy several CD's a month, but with XM, I don't really want to because I get a lot of variety as it is.

Someday, it may be free to get it. Don't count on it. A long time ago, people thought the same about cable TV.

If you want to wait for XM to be free, you may be waiting a while. XM could very well go under, as could Sirius. If I recall correctly, DirecTV had people wondering if satellite TV would succeed. Yes, some failed or got bought out. That tends to happen with new technology. But regardless of that, somebody will be providing satellite services to vehicles. Those who have adopted already are just more willing to see what can be had.

To each his own.

-Paul